From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Free Republic is an American Internet forum and activist site for conservatives.
Origins and funding
Free Republic was founded in 1996 by Jim Robinson of Fresno, California. The site gained popularity during the President Clinton impeachment controversy when protests and write-in campaigns were organized on it.
The site is funded by donations requested of its members, often by a banner-type graphic on the site.
Board users
There is no membership structure, or regional chiefs. Users of Free Republic ("Freepers") organize local gatherings on the various message boards. There is a member directory, but like most internet forums nearly everyone has a pseudonym and few people divulge their true identity in their online profiles. All members are afforded a mail service that allows them to send, receive and store private messages to each other. Many also inform other members about certain interest areas on "ping lists," lists of users interested in a certain subject that are alerted to ongoing discussions on that topic.
Discussion
Members post articles from news sources and then then discuss them with subsequent replies to the original post, and to each other.
Comments posted by users of Free Republic are often insults directed at liberal political figures, institutions, ideology, liberals in general, and the media. Most of the comments are short, with some posts of longer length and substance.
The Free Republic community is largely united on certain political staples of the conservative movement, including having a strong dislike for President Bill Clinton and Senator Hillary Clinton, and opposing gun control, abortion, and what it considers to be "the gay agenda," particularly same-sex marriage. Freepers are often called to vote en masse in off-site online polls, and there is a daily prayer for Bush.
On some issues, however, the Free Republic membership is divided. Three main groups can be observed on the forum: neoconservatives, paleoconservatives, and libertarians, with neoconservatism being represented in the large majority of posts. Divisive issues include evolution, immigration control, free trade, and the legalization of soft drugs.
Free Republic does not seek to be a board that represents all political viewpoints: it is a meeting point for those to the right of the political center in America, and articles posted which contain unwelcome (usually liberal) views are customarily ridiculed and tagged with the words BARF ALERT after the headline, a feature meant to warn the reader in advance of an opinion running counter to the prevailing perspective of the site's intended audience. The moderators often remove or ban posters who criticize Israel, the Iraq or Afghanistan war, etc., from its discussion boards. Material that criticizes the administration of President George W. Bush is typically not permitted, and posts which do are quickly removed and the member banned. Some topics may be broached by members who have belonged for a longer period of time to the forum, but are forbidden to newcomers.
Although Free Republic has an official policy of not permitting racism, some posts allegedly show it. Examples include calling Palestinian children "bombs still growing" (a reference to suicide bombing), racial references in the song parody Crying (Frying Abu-Jamal) [1]*(http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a377afda025c2.htm), and frequent references to the French as "weasels" [2]*(http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-vetscor/896711/replies?comment=14); however, many posters receive suspensions or even bans for posting material considered racist.
Manipulating polls
The manipulation of online polls by Free Republic has not been without controversy. The practice involves making a post directing members to vote en masse in an online poll, particularly those on television network or newspaper websites, with the intended goal of significantly affecting the final outcome. Known on the Free Republic as "freeping" a poll, the practice is not unique to the Free Republic forums and is employed by many other activist websites of all political stripes.
Free Republic in the national spotlight
In August 2004 Jerome Corsi, co-author of the controversial and influential book Unfit for Command, apologized in the national media for racist, homophobic, and anti-Catholic comments, as well as slurs against liberal political figures, that he made on Free Republic. The posts were discovered and made public by Media Matters for America, a liberal website. Subsequently, John O'Neil, the book's other co-author, attempted to distance himself from Corsi and attempted to downplay Corsi's involvement in the writing of the book.
Lawsuit and settlement
Because it has been a practice of its users to copy and paste copyrighted news stories in their entirety to its discussion boards, Free Republic was sued by The Washington Post and the Los Angeles Times. (Reuters and The Wall Street Journal were part of the original consortium threatening legal action, but they dropped out before the lawsuit was filed.) Many members view the lawsuit as an unsuccessful conspiracy by a "liberal media" to stifle the organization; founder Robinson referred to the suit as "a life and death struggle with elements of the socialist propaganda machine."
In a negotiated settlement, Free Republic agreed to remove the posted articles, and paid these two newspapers $5,000 each. Neither party was awarded any damages, legal fees or costs. Today, other publishers, such as Condé Nast, have joined The Washington Post and the Los Angeles Times in objecting to the posting of entire copyrighted articles. Users now post excerpts from such publishers (as allowed by fair use), and the site filters submissions against a watchlist of "banned" sources, by request of their webmaster or as a result of the lawsuit, as a precaution against future lawsuits.
Jim Robinson
Jim Robinson (born 1945) is the founder and primary owner of the site. He is a computer programer and served in the United States Navy as an electrician from 1965 to 1969. He formed Free Republic in 1996 and is currently semi-retired due to muscular dystrophy.
Controversy
Robinson's activities on Free Republic are the subject of controversy. In 1998 Free Republic was successfully sued by the Washington Post and Los Angeles Times for copyright infringement of their news stories, which were posted to the site.
Immigration Rift
Robinson has taken informal positions in favor of George W. Bush's amnesty program for illegal immigration, causing a substantial rift in the membership of the site. The difference of opinion has allegedly resulted in Robinson's decision to ban several hundred posters and the resignation of many others.[3]*(http://www.vdare.com/misc/gheen_050216_jimrob.htm) Critics on the right, such as VDARE have likened Robinson's activities to political purges and suggest that he screens new members of the site who take a differing position on immigration from his own.[4]*(http://vdare.com/misc/gheen_050211_shot.htm) Robinson is also said to engage in censorship of articles that criticize illegal immigration.
Financial Impropriety
Free Republic's finances and Robinson's involvement with them have long been the subject of internet criticisms. The website is allegedly run on quarterly fundraiser drives that reportedly collect as much as $100,000 from member contributions. Many critics on sites such as Liberty Post and Democratic Underground, as well as former Free Republic posters who have since fallen out with the site, have expressed suspicion with the site's fundraising and Robinson's activities. Frequent allegations of financial impropriety include the claim that Robinson uses member donations as a source of substantial personal income. One frequent allegation suggests that Robinson used money collected for Free Republics operations to purchase a large recreational vehicle for his personal use.
According to Salon.com, "Robinson has also been accused of raising funds online and not accounting for how he's used them." He was rumored at one time to be receiving a six-figure consulting fee from a now-defunct online streaming radio venture "while crying poverty" on Free Republic "and begging for donations." As Salon notes, "No one beyond Robinson really knows how much money has been taken in or spent. He refuses to release a financial statement, and declined any comment to Salon News on his finances." [5]*(http://www.salon.com/news/feature/1999/07/13/free/print.html)
External links
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### Okiereddust
*2005-05-20 22:42* | [User Profile](/od/user/29)
Interesting, especially the stuff at the bottom. Guess the whole world knows about Meanshitnovik now :lol:
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### toddbrendanfahey
*2005-05-20 22:47* | [User Profile](/od/user/142)
"Pass it on" :censored:
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### AntiYuppie
*2005-05-20 22:54* | [User Profile](/od/user/1323)
It's unfortunate that Wikipedia makes no mention of FR's AIPAC and ADL connections.
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### Sertorius
*2005-05-20 22:59* | [User Profile](/od/user/26)
[QUOTE]Robinson has taken informal positions in favor of George W. Bush's amnesty program for illegal immigration, causing a substantial rift in the membership of the site. The difference of opinion has allegedly resulted in Robinson's decision to ban several hundred posters and the resignation of many others.[3] ([url]http://www.vdare.com/misc/gheen_050216_jimrob.htm[/url]) Critics on the right, such as VDARE have likened Robinson's activities to political purges and suggest that he screens new members of the site who take a differing position on immigration from his own.[4] ([url]http://vdare.com/misc/gheen_050211_shot.htm[/url]) Robinson is also said to engage in censorship of articles that criticize illegal immigration.[/QUOTE]
I bet RimJob has removed more than several hundred. I also suspect the number of actual members is much smaller than what he claims. Some of these members claimed have been banned, only their accounts are not deleted.
Interesting find and a fairly written article, Todd.
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### Howard Campbell, Jr.
*2005-05-20 23:11* | [User Profile](/od/user/244)
[img]http://www.editorialcartoons.net/sequence/sequence107.gif[/img]
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### Okiereddust
*2005-05-20 23:43* | [User Profile](/od/user/29)
[QUOTE=AntiYuppie]It's unfortunate that Wikipedia makes no mention of FR's AIPAC and ADL connections.[/QUOTE]
AY - seriously do you have any concrete stuff on this - more than just the "everyone knows JR is a zionist shill" variety?
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### AntiYuppie
*2005-05-21 07:04* | [User Profile](/od/user/1323)
[QUOTE=Okiereddust]AY - seriously do you have any concrete stuff on this - more than just the "everyone knows JR is a zionist shill" variety?[/QUOTE]No, I don't have any concrete evidence (I'm still waiting for somebody in Robinson's inner circle to defect to the right side and tell us and the world the truth), but it doesn't take a genius to put two and two together.
Consider the following:
1) You know as well as I do that before 2001, people were welcome to post anti-Bush, anti-Israel, and pro-"old right" articles and commentary on the site. There was a contingent of neos and rabid Zionists, but Robinson took our side against them as often as he did otherwise.
2) Among the contingent of rabid Zionists, there was a certain faction that never tired of "hinting" along the lines of, "You know, posts like these (i.e. anything remotely critical of the AIPAC agenda) make this site look bad." These intensified towards the end of 2000, and dovetailed well with the G.W. Bush election.
3) Robinson had made the transition from Bush critic to Bush shill.
4) Almost overnight, Robinson purges the most visible paleoconservatives and enforces a strict "no discussion of racial issues" and "no criticism of Israel" policy to compliment the "no criticism of Bush" policy.
5) Now the site is a neocon stronghold, filled with posters who spam the site with AIPAC propaganda 24x7 and take all of 30 second to find any thread with the words "Israel" or "Middle East."
Now, such an overnight shift of attitude and behavior is possible, but not very probable. So you connect the dots. We know Robinson was strapped for cash, so perhaps the ADL and AIPAC waved a $ carrot. That failing, the ADL also carries a big stick in the form of trumped up lawsuits. What do you think is the most likely explanation for what happened? Perhaps something along the same lines as what Sobran experienced from that bastion of conservative wisdom, William F. Buckley and his Podhoretzian puppetmasters?
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### toddbrendanfahey
*2005-05-21 07:17* | [User Profile](/od/user/142)
FreeRepublic.com, the "limited liability corporation," needs to be audited.
How much money goes in? Who has contributed? And how is it used?
Now, how best to get this job done?
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### Okiereddust
*2005-05-21 07:47* | [User Profile](/od/user/29)
[QUOTE=AntiYuppie]No, I don't have any concrete evidence (I'm still waiting for somebody in Robinson's inner circle to defect to the right side and tell us and the world the truth), but it doesn't take a genius to put two and two together.
Consider the following:
1) You know as well as I do that before 2001, people were welcome to post anti-Bush, anti-Israel, and pro-"old right" articles and commentary on the site. There was a contingent of neos and rabid Zionists, but Robinson took our side against them as often as he did otherwise.
I'll take your word. I wasn't at FR then
> 2) Among the contingent of rabid Zionists, there was a certain faction that never tired of "hinting" along the lines of, "You know, posts like these (i.e. anything remotely critical of the AIPAC agenda) make this site look bad." These intensified towards the end of 2000, and dovetailed well with the G.W. Bush election.
3) Robinson had made the transition from Bush critic to Bush shill.
4) Almost overnight, Robinson purges the most visible paleoconservatives and enforces a strict "no discussion of racial issues" and "no criticism of Israel" policy to compliment the "no criticism of Bush" policy.
Now, such an overnight shift of attitude and behavior is possible, but not very probable.
OK you're guessing.
I just think what mainly happened was as the conservative movement gradually moved from opposition to Clinton oftening bordering on tin-foil hysterics to rallying around the Bush campaign and the promises and opportunities of political power JR went along with them. Especially as FR itself started to become more visible and powerful in the GOP and nation at large, and as JR become irreversibly invested in this project as his livelihood. Its the sort of thing that just makes you much more conservative/ establishmentarian
> So you connect the dots. We know Robinson was strapped for cash, so perhaps the ADL and AIPAC waved a $ carrot. That failing, the ADL also carries a big stick in the form of trumped up lawsuits. What do you think is the most likely explanation for what happened? Perhaps something along the same lines as what Sobran experienced from that bastion of conservative wisdom, William F. Buckley and his Podhoretzian puppetmasters?[/QUOTE]Well, if not Sobran, Buckley is a good example IMO. Like Robinson he gradually started to feel the increasing pressure of responsibility (although with Reagan as opposed to W.), and thus gradually made his peace with the political establisment, purgung the "extremists" and augering in the moderates.
Jim was just seduced the same way the GOP itself really, as with the rest of the political establishment has been seduced. By and large nothing direct, just the usual stick of the veiled threats combined with the carrot of mainstream political acceptability and the priviledges it entails.
Actually of course the Sobran/Podhoretz example is probably a perfect example come to think of it. Poddy was screaming for Sobran's head for years, and eventually Buckley realized he'd have to choose - so he chose the people with the most money and better organization.
This after all exactly was what happpened at FR - we know certain members ("Veronica" or LF - Penacite the last one) were always there, screaming for posters heads. And we know some searches on "Veronica" did disclose some rather interesting things - posting on 12 hour shifts with ISP's in NY, LA. Paris, and Tel Aviv. She potentially could represent part of an organization effort to influence FR, although someone still has some more dots to connect IMO.
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### AntiYuppie
*2005-05-21 07:53* | [User Profile](/od/user/1323)
It's interesting, isn't it, how many movements get started by courting "extremists," and then purge the very people they tried to attract once they become established and mainstream.
As Robinson and his outfit became more mainstream, he undoubtedly started making contacts with people in positions of influence, who told him to lose "embarassments" like "racists," "anti-semites," "conspiracy theorists" and the like. Since then, he has probably built a very strong relationship with people in positions of influence. The disproportionate presence of people who post about nothing but Israel-related issues sheds some light as to the nature of the organizations and people Robinson works with (i.e. takes orders from).
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### Howard Campbell, Jr.
*2005-05-21 13:07* | [User Profile](/od/user/244)
[img]http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Apr2002/200204154a.jpg[/img]
Wolfowitz rants at the Pro-Zionist 4/15/02 rally co-sponsored by RimJob
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### Howard Campbell, Jr.
*2005-05-21 13:23* | [User Profile](/od/user/244)
[url]http://100777.com/node/917[/url]
Plan Daisy
Article Censored by Moderator "Mr Nuke Buzzcut" at LibertyForum.Org
A tempest is raging at the Web's premiere Libertarian
discussion forum. Here is some biased explanation.
[From a post to Liberty Forum:]
Every discussion forum on the Web is monitored by Israeli loyalists. This is an organized and, where necessary, supported effort that is perfectly reasonable given the situation of Jews and Israel in the world not only today, but throughout history. Just as the ADL and the JDL and other organizations are properly watchful for those inimical for whatever reason to the well-being of Jews, and are very good at what they do, so we have among us at Liberty Forum not only those who advocate Israel's interests but those who simply watch for dangers. I support this, I have never not supported it, and firmly advocate that any discrete and identifiable grouping on whatever basis of association should do likewise.
What people do with what they learn is another question altogether, the world is full of danger for everybody and everybody should stay on watch for it. There is nothing "tinfoil hat" about it, ask any mother whether she feels right in ignoring the possibility of dangers to her babies. And if she has to sneak around and eavesdrop when her daughter is talking on the phone to the guy next door who looks to everybody else like a saint, then more power to her. I pretty much ignore the possibility of dangers to myself, but only because I've physically watched assassination attempts collapse literally on my doorstep, and every attack on me in the last thirty-five years fail ludicrously and quite often backfire. But I still look around when I step outside, just out of habit. It's a good habit.
I have a cordial relationship with Leon Gralnik, who fields the Meshuryan team at Microsoft Networks in their discussion groups related to Middle East issues ~ right out in the open, "Meshuryan" is in his signature and it has the same definition in Hebrew and in Arabic, it's hasbara and agitprop. Leon is an expert, and he's surrounded by extremely competent people. Whenever a discussion begins concerning Israeli atrocities in Palestine, or corruption of American foreign policy in favor of Israeli state terrorism in Palestine or financing or arming it, he and his crew can bring such a flood of obscure details, disinformation reports that opponents are challenged to "disprove" with their own research, and complete and total confusion to the discussion, that they derail just about everything that might disclose something about Israeli state terrorism. They're very good, and they're there twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week, with direct lines to the moderators (one of them is a moderator), to protect Israel's image from the realities unknown to the American people.
I had a long conversation there with a grandmother working in the GOI Information offices in Tel Aviv (i.e., Mossad). I have a friendly correspondence with the webmaster head of the Jewish Defense Organization, who links to my website and to a newspaper article about me that was linked here at Liberty Forum (I think by Down_South) and has posted some of what I have written to him on their website.
One of my former neighbors, whose boys were running buddies with my sons, was a veteran of the Jewish Defense League, and we had pleasant conversations. I support the Jewish organizations that attempt to arm every Jew in America. I'm very big on self-sufficiency when it comes to being able to resist attack and tyranny, for everybody and especially for those who realize the importance of that. And I have a great respect for people who can come together to organize their advocacy in a public discussion forum, and Liberty Forum's Israeli loyalists certainly include some very capable individuals. We even talk to each other privately because each respects the other's right to believe according to his own lights. We prefer not to meet alone in dark alleys, but I would no more harm a faithful Jew treacherously than I would lay a hand on a muslim. And I think my experience supports the belief that my "enemies" are also faithful to their own beliefs.
We are arrayed in the marketplace of ideas, each advocating a fervently-held vision of humanity. God Alone will decide what comes of it, "we" are the faithful of all persuasions, and we are all vigilant against the enemies of God and the destroyers of humanity.
One of the distinguishing characteristics of Liberty Forum, however, is that such vigilance against dangers to the forum itself is prohibited or, at best, reserved exclusively to [site owner] John Deere himself as and when he feels a need to examine something brought to his attention. Unlike all other discussion forums there is no "nanny brigade" in place at Liberty Forum to arrest discussion that could prove contentious, unproductive, disruptive, or ~ gasp! ~ so runaway popular on the Web that like this Thread, it draws in nearly six thousand page views in four days and floods mailboxes with personal mail every which way from Sunday, that for example portrays Israeli partisan activity ~ the "what they do with it" part ~ in a true light.
Which is the source of much unruly contention ~ like my signature says:
Divert, distort, denigrate, disrupt or destroy any discussion of the corruption of American liberty by the organized lobby of a foreign power
And Israel's loyalists are superb at creating a ruckus when their ox is gored, and this Thread is a good example.
But Liberty Forum is the ONLY place that "allows as free discussion of politics as you will find" here. It is unique in this respect and this is what makes it attractive to the members and to the rest of the people on the Web, including more and more teams of Israeli loyalists who are aghast that people can talk about Israeli machinations here the way we do and get away with it.
So let's not lose sight of the diamond. At Liberty Forum, members can do what cannot be done anywhere else on the Web with a general membership ~ we can turn a certain sacred cow into hamburger and not have the discussion shut down and the advocates banished.
Until now, that is.
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Here is the Liberty Forum article that exposed the operation of an organized Israeli loyalist hasbara operation at Liberty Forum, masquerading as a single individual called "Daisy11" ~ who joined Liberty Forum on November 23, 2002, and had added 11,097 posts by July 20, 2003 ~ 46.43 posts per day for 239 days, posting literally around the clock ...
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[NOTE: Liberty Forum Privacy Policy prohibits posting of 32-bit IP addresses that may tend to locate a private individual member of Liberty Forum. Following standard Internet usage, the last octet of every IP address posted was replaced with an asterisk. Information not included in original article, restored or added to this report, is shown in green. Some spelling has also been corrected.]
Daisy11 posts regularly from 212.198.0.97, an anonymizing proxy server in Paris; and ALSO shows up in my server logs from 199.182.24.27, 199.182.22.248, 207.221.131.85, 24.62.164.57, 209.234.160.37 (January and February), and from 204.116.106.164, 130.94.107.139, 130.94.106.251 (in July and August). Get the picture? Not quite? Okay ...
First, notice that there are no Daisy11 entries in my logs for the period from March through June. That means that whoever was posting as Daisy11 had graphics turned off, my log entries come from graphics hosted on my website ~ some are Skunk's, most are mine, and Babylon's cartoons are there, too ~ and posted in a Thread. This also means that what I have for those periods is incomplete to the extent that someone at any other IP address had graphics turned off. It's a standard method, I turn off graphics whenever the Liberty Forum server hangs up on serving all those cutesie little faces and icons ~ which is far too often, they should be hosted elsewhere on a high-volume pipe. Anyway ...
212.198.0.97 is celsius.noos.net; noos.net is registered in Paris; no information is available for celsius.noos.net. Traceroute goes through 24 hops to get there, 14 in the United States, then to London and points south. Once it gets into noos.net, there's no information available for anything other than an IP address and its canonical name, everything is referred to ARIN in Amsterdam. The canonical names are not resolved to an IP address by the Domain Name Servers. It's entirely hidden. noos.net shows "Status: REGISTRAR-LOCK" at Register.com, where it's registered ~ since 7 December 1999. AUXIPAR, Didier TATTEVIN, 20, place des vins de France, Paris, 75012 and a telephone number. The Technical Contact is Euroconnect.fr, Pascal JULIENNE, 130, rue de bourg Bele, Le Mans, 72000, France and another telephone number.
So I stepped back to the last router address ~ nothing.
So I stepped back to the noos.net domain name and came up with the Paris registration, and that's IT ~ virtually nothing below that (France came up with a Class A network and no other information). Someone has veiled this entire domain and there isn't even a way to tell how extensive it is. It includes AT LEAST two entire Class A networks, each with 16,777,216 IP addresses.
A huge set of networks masked from routine network scrutiny. That's Daisy11's home posting address.
199.182.24.27 is in Placerville, California, a small town east of Sacramento almost to Reno. So is 199.182.22.248; so is 207.221.131.85; no canonical names available for these IP addresses. Network Tracer [free download] comes up a complete blank on all three ~ not even an abuse address, nothing.
24.62.164.57 is h00104b15bc27.ne.client2.attbi.com which appears to be in Massachusetts. Network Tracer returns no information.
209.234.160.37 is 209-234-160-37.gen.twtelecom.net ~ traceroute jumps to Anaheim, California, then into twtelecom and disappears. Network Tracer shows it registered in Littleton, Colorado in a block of 24576 IP addresses ~ a relatively small block, it's most likely in Colorado.
204.116.106.164 is dial-164.r05.tnmmrl.infoave.net; Network Tracer shows it in an IP block of 65536 (relatively small for the area) in Fort Mill, South Carolina.
130.94.107.139 has no canonical name. PingPlotter goes to San Diego to get to it, that's probably where it is. 130.94.106.251 gives identical results. Network Tracer comes up with a big nothing.
Now this is where experience comes into the picture. I have run Network Tracer on over eight hundred IP addresses, domain names, email addresses, and canonical names. It's VERY unusual for there to be NO information coming back, and fairly unusual for only sparse information to come back. It does a ping, a netbios query, a nameserver lookup, a whois domain name record query lookup ~ often two of them ~ at every whois server on the planet until it finds a registry entry, an ARIN WhoIs query, a Reverse DNS lookup, and a traceroute. All the information it collects is placed in a text file that's typically from 5K to 20K in size ~ 75% of my Network Tracer files are over 6K.
These "Daisy11" traces average 3K and some of them have double results, I ran some of them twice ~ once on the IP and once on the canonical name, where there was one. And I added the results from Steve Gibson's "IDServe" utility and the traceroute timing and router hop tables from Ping Plotter to these files.
Here we have nine IP addresses located in several countries, ALL of which return NO information or sparse information. No local ISP names and addresses and telephone numbers, no upstream providers at the next two tiers above the local ISPs ~ these are all very obscured IP addresses, they're not only unlocatable but the nearest "oversight" responsible upstream providers couldn't track any of them down to a town, let alone to a phone number or client name, without taking his own customers through a bureaucratic wringer and possibly a subpoena.
Now do you get a picture?
Liberty Forum is a project, and Daisy11 is its name. And that, mind you, is from a PRELIMINARY investigation of slightly over ONE HOUR's duration using very basic, unsophisticated, readily available networking administration tools. And I haven't even gone to Google yet.
John Deere and the moderators are being worked by a team of sayyanim and their katsa. Systematically.
But I've known that all along. John Deere thinks it's tinfoil. But I've been at this for thirty years, I know what's out there working to annihilate me and my people.
The amusing thing is that I don't have to flag any of them ~ they've been tracking my posts all along, just like they track the posts of several other liberty-minded people who are on to their machinations and schemes against American freedom and finance and future prospects.
Sure is nice of John Deere to set up a place for them to showcase their cabalistic trolling skills.
Divert, distort, denigrate, disrupt or destroy any discussion of the corruption of American liberty by the organized lobby of a foreign power
There's no cabal, no floor party, nothing to see here, move along, Folks.î
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Libertarianism ~ a feral territorialism of the mind
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And then the fun began ...
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[Continuing from the above post to Liberty Forum:]
Any information regarding the "reality" behind any anonymous handle is not allowed to be posted here.
You raise this assertion, in the name of privacy and anonymity, far beyond where privacy and anonymity can raise it.
Daisy11 is anonymous. This is true of the present Daisy11, after the recent "Daisy11 is locked down tight" (an actual quote) and change in Plan Daisy, and it was and is true of every predecessor Daisy11. All nine or ten or a hundred "Daisy11" posters of yesterday's Plan Daisy are anonymous. They are unlocatable, they are hidden from view, they are completely obscured, by design and intent, as I have shown in spades. I could go further with proofs, but not within the existing restraints on disclosures ~ no private identifying or locating information is available to be disclosed about the participants in Plan Daisy ~ that is the thrust of my entire argument, and my original post
Discussing the fact that one "handle" was actually manned by an around-the-clock team with professional expertise and instant access to a tremendous database of facts, contentions, and debate ammunition, is not a "privacy" disclosure. Proving that Plan Daisy is not a single anonymous individual but several anonymous individuals widely scattered around the globe is not a "privacy" disclosure. It is a revelation of standard public forum practices engaged in by any political party with the means to field it.
The problem here, of course, is that it's Israel's partisans who are being illuminated. And that's the entire extent of the "problem" ~ were it any other group it would not be a "problem" and there would be no claim of "privacy" for how people come into Liberty Forum to advocate their causes.
It does not matter who posts what here, and why. What they post, is all. Why is it such a big issue for you?
It's not an issue with me. What's an issue with me is that the members of Liberty Forum have a right to know when someone pretending to be a single Liberty Forum member is actually a score of people operating as a team. And what's an issue with me is that you and some others at Liberty Forum want to suppress discussion of that simple fact, with particulars that do not identify any private individual at all, on the completely specious grounds of protecting someone's privacy.
That's bogus, it's illegitimate, it's a prior restraint on free discussion, it aids in defrauding Liberty Forum members, and it's not worthy of John Deere's commitment to open discussion of political issues ~ and this is a political issue relevant to liberty.
"Daisy11" has been replaced now.
So let's talk about all those "Daisy11" Israeli loyalists who were all pretending to be one person just a little while ago.
It's not an uncommon thing. It's a gorilla in the parlor. And you say we can't mention it?
How do you reckon? How do you call yourself a supporter of open discussion? How can you describe yourself as a libertarian?
You want to bury the truth that everybody at Liberty Forum can see like an open book.
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Read the discussion of the ethics of a team pretending to be a single individual in virtual advocacy, and of exposing that deception.
Join the discussion at the Web's premiere Libertarian discussion forum.
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### toddbrendanfahey
*2005-05-21 13:29* | [User Profile](/od/user/142)
Good job, Howard. I have the source of that "Plan Daisy" [I]expose[/I].
Wuz waiting 'til someone else posted it (here). Lots of folks think I'm full of :dung:...so, sometimes, I restrain myself.
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### Howard Campbell, Jr.
*2005-05-21 13:37* | [User Profile](/od/user/244)
[QUOTE=toddbrendanfahey]Good job, Howard. I have the source of that "Plan Daisy" [I]expose[/I].
Wuz waiting 'til someone else posted it (here). Lots of folks think I'm full of :dung:...so, sometimes, I restrain myself.[/QUOTE]
RimJobistan has a weed garden of NKVD/ADL "Daisies"...AY is correct about the timeline. Early 2001 is when the Paleo-purges kicked into high gear...
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### toddbrendanfahey
*2005-05-21 13:51* | [User Profile](/od/user/142)
And [I]you'd be correct, Alex.[/I]
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### Sertorius
*2005-05-21 13:57* | [User Profile](/od/user/26)
Weisbrot noted the same thing about "Veronica"/"Penacite" and "her" (sic) posting habits. Multiple posts done in a very short amount of time and at all hours indicating it was more than one person.
[url]http://www.originaldissent.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18950&postcount=16[/url]
Perhaps I should p.m. her and ask for "her" input on this new thread?
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### Howard Campbell, Jr.
*2005-05-21 14:07* | [User Profile](/od/user/244)
[QUOTE=Sertorius]Weisbrot noted the same thing about "Veronica"/"Penacite" and "her" (sic) posting habits. Multiple posts done in a very short amount of time and at all hours indicating it was more than one person.
[url]http://www.originaldissent.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18950&postcount=16[/url]
Perhaps I should p.m. her and ask for "her" input on this new thread?[/QUOTE]
The same "entity" would be posting simultaneously as *veronica* at RimJob's; *penacite* at LF and *jazzfan* at LP. A well-funded, heavily staffed swarm of *Sayanim*, they're.
The Tribe seems to be giving OD the "silent treatment", despite occasional trolls. Recall how noisy with Abes the old Sam Francis forum became.
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### toddbrendanfahey
*2005-05-21 14:08* | [User Profile](/od/user/142)
[url]http://www.sianews.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1632[/url]
Read it & then do something about it. :thumbd:
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### Howard Campbell, Jr.
*2005-05-21 14:31* | [User Profile](/od/user/244)
[url]http://www.freerepublic.com/pics/unitedrally5.jpg[/url]
[url]http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/696876/posts[/url]
Operation Infinite Freep: United We Stand With Israel Rally, in Fresno, Tonight!
[email]barak@middleeastconnection.org[/email] | June 8, 2002 | Stuart Weil
Posted on 06/08/2002 12:54:11 PM PDT by Jim Robinson
United We Stand With Israel
* FOR FREEDOM FROM TERROR * FOR FREE SPEECH * FOR THE RIGHT TO DEFEND OUR BELIEFS * FOR SAFETY AND SECURITY * FOR DEMOCRACY * FOR RELIGIOUS FREEDOM *
Saturday June 8, 2002 6:00 - 8:00 p.m.
Fresno's Woodward Park
FEATURING: The Israel Consul, Nationally renowned authors and middle east experts, Dr. Bruce Thornton, Dr. Victor Davis Hanson, Col. John Somerville, media personality Bill Manders, International Televison personality George Otis and Religious and Civic Leaders, TBA.
You can be a blessing to the United States and Israel by attending this Rally
Why?
Because God promised Abraham and his descendants, "I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse You."
Bring signs that reflect pro-Israel/pro-peace messages and wear red, white and blue.
Sponsored by the Middle East Connection
See you there,
Thank you,
Jim Robinson
On behalf of the Fresno/Central Valley Chapter
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TOPICS: Activism/Chapters; Breaking News
KEYWORDS: FRESNO; INFINITEFREEP; ISRAEL; RALLY; UNITEDWESTAND
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1 posted on 06/08/2002 12:54:12 PM PDT by Jim Robinson
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To: Saundra Duffy; JustAmy; FriendAnn; mtngrl@vrwc; Senorita; Gracie1; GoodieD; Mama_Bear...
ping
2 posted on 06/08/2002 1:02:39 PM PDT by Jim Robinson
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To: Jim Robinson
What's the Middle East Connection?
(I know that sounds like a stupid question ... talking about the sponsor, of course =)
3 posted on 06/08/2002 1:03:32 PM PDT by Askel5
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To: Askel5
They are a group that supports Israel. Some of their members have attended our Fresno rallies in the last couple months and they've asked us if we would like to attend theirs this weekend.
4 posted on 06/08/2002 1:07:44 PM PDT by Jim Robinson
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To: Jim Robinson;Infinite FReep
There are many things FReepers can do to help support our military.
To find the latest FReeps going on check below.
Join Operation Infinite FReep!
*Infinite FReep Bump List
Click Here to find more Operation Infinite FReeps
If you are unable to attend any FReeps please e-mail someone in the military
and let them know they are not forgotten.
5 posted on 06/08/2002 1:09:26 PM PDT by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub
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To: Jim Robinson
Ah ... locals. That's cool they've been lending their support to you as well. Trust your regular presence in Fresno inspires many to get out and make use of their civil right to Free Speech.
6 posted on 06/08/2002 1:14:37 PM PDT by Askel5
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To: Jim Robinson
major bump!!
7 posted on 06/08/2002 1:44:45 PM PDT by RaceBannon
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To: Jim Robinson
Dr. Victor Davis Hanson
Wow! That's getting some real firepower.
Wish I could be there to thank him for his Memorial Day article "A Ring"
he did for National Review and talked about on Hugh Hewitt Show.
8 posted on 06/08/2002 2:01:55 PM PDT by VOA
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To: VOA
Dr. Victor Davis Hanson
Dr. Hanson is a prof here at Cal State Univ Fresno. We get to hear him quite a bit on the local radio talkshows.
Just this week he was on KMJ 580 am, Bill Manders show, talking about his new book on the Battle of Midway.
9 posted on 06/08/2002 2:18:06 PM PDT by Clovis_Skeptic
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To: Jim Robinson
bttt
10 posted on 06/08/2002 3:48:49 PM PDT by Brad's Gramma
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To: Jim Robinson
JR bump.
I'm with you in spirit folks.
11 posted on 06/08/2002 5:53:53 PM PDT by tet68
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To: Jim Robinson
You knock me out! I wish that I could be there! Go FRESNO GO!
12 posted on 06/08/2002 6:17:42 PM PDT by Republic
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To: Jim Robinson
Just watching the local news (KMPH 26) at 10 p.m..
Guess the police were called out to the park to protect Freepers from unwelcomed "protestors".
This must be a first?
13 posted on 06/08/2002 10:08:13 PM PDT by Amerigomag
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To: Clovis_Skeptic; Jim Robinson; mtngrl@vrwc; senorita; gracie1; Mama_Bear; Saundra Duffy; Diver Dave
Just heard on local news that police had to be called because of the war protestors who showed up. Looked like there were more good guys ..... hope to get a report soon.
14 posted on 06/08/2002 10:11:53 PM PDT by JustAmy
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To: Amerigomag; Jim Robinson
Hope Jim and Chris took the camera!!!
15 posted on 06/08/2002 10:13:06 PM PDT by JustAmy
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To: JustAmy
Wow, didn't get to attend because Hubby's family came from out of town to visit. Would have loved to see Dr. Hansen, he is such a hero of mine.
Do we know yet why the police were called?
16 posted on 06/08/2002 10:15:46 PM PDT by ladyinred
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To: ladyinred
Sorry, Dr. Hanson, misspelled his name! He is just terrific, don't want to get that wrong.
17 posted on 06/08/2002 10:19:00 PM PDT by ladyinred
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To: ladyinred
I did not hear anything regarding the reason, it may have been a precautionary move. We, Fresno Freepers, are well aware that these people who spout peace are not opposed to pushing you off a street corner.
When the anti-Israel crowd was gathering on our corner, we had quite a police presense. I believe they were there to protect the 8 or 10 of us should the war protestors and pro-terrorists become too aggressive. The Friday when a couple confronted jkphoto, the police came out of their cars and were at the ready in case they were needed.
18 posted on 06/08/2002 10:25:24 PM PDT by JustAmy
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To: JustAmy
Just heard on local news that police had to be called because of the war protestors who showed up
Uh oh, don't you just love the "war protestors" and how so many of them use such peaceful and loving tactics to get their message out? Of course, not knowing the reason the police were called, I probably shouldn't comment at this point - except we have witnessed first hand during our rallies just how loving and peaceful these people are inclined to be.
I sure hope things didn't get too out of hand before the police arrived. I am looking forward to a first hand report from Jim, I will also be watching the Fresno news at 11:00.
19 posted on 06/08/2002 10:29:31 PM PDT by Mama_Bear
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To: Jim Robinson
bttt...
20 posted on 06/08/2002 10:42:03 PM PDT by RCW2001
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To: Amerigomag
Did you hear any additional information?
21 posted on 06/08/2002 10:43:35 PM PDT by JustAmy
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To: Mama_Bear
Good News!!
Channel 47 reported that police were present but event was peaceful.
22 posted on 06/08/2002 11:08:36 PM PDT by JustAmy
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To: JustAmy
Channel 47 reported that police were present but event was peaceful.
I just heard the same thing on KSEE 24. :-)
23 posted on 06/08/2002 11:10:36 PM PDT by Mama_Bear
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To: Mama_Bear
Time to hit the pillow; talk to you tomorrow.
Amy
24 posted on 06/08/2002 11:15:03 PM PDT by JustAmy
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To: Jim Robinson
I'll ping this and come back in the morning to read more about those Fabulous FResno FReepers.
I do believe we have Chapter of the Year honors in the making for FResno FReepers!
25 posted on 06/08/2002 11:34:54 PM PDT by Diver Dave
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To: JustAmy
No problems at the rally. It might of gotten ugly had it not been for Lager. He held the peaceniks war protestors at bay until the police arrived. They had intended to come up the hill to where the rally was being held, but Lager spotted them and cut them off at the parking lot. He said that he chose the biggest and ugliest of the lot, went up and stood toe to toe with the guy and told him, "You are not going any further." The guy tried to say they have a right to free speech, but lager told him, "Not on our permit you don't." He said that this space was permitted for our use and the peaceniks war protestors could have their say in the parking lot. Also told the guy that if he took another step, they'd be going to "fist city" right here. They backed off in a hurry. When the cops arrived, they agreed and told the peaceniks war protestors to stay away from the rally.
Other than that it was a great rally. The crowd was probably about 500 to 600 people all spread out on a grassy slope overlooking the speaking platform. Great crowd, great speakers, perfect weather and beautiful location. FReepers present were Saundra Duffy, her husband Lager, Gracie1, Sheila, Chris and me.
Pictures to follow.
26 posted on 06/08/2002 11:44:24 PM PDT by Jim Robinson
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To: Saundra Duffy; Lager; Gracie1
Saundra Duffy, Lager and a couple grandchildren. Sheila, Gracie1 and Jim center background.
Lager, Saundra, Sheila, Gracie1 and Jim
Gracie1, Jim and Chris
27 posted on 06/08/2002 11:56:56 PM PDT by Jim Robinson
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To: Jim Robinson
BTTT.
28 posted on 06/09/2002 7:04:26 AM PDT by scratchgolfer
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To: Jim Robinson
morning bump!
29 posted on 06/09/2002 7:07:31 AM PDT by BeforeISleep
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To: Jim Robinson
A big Pro-Israel Bump... BTTT
YeeeeeHawwwww
30 posted on 06/09/2002 7:11:30 AM PDT by LowOiL
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To: Jim Robinson
What a beautiful evening, the weather turned out just right.
I guess the left is going to whine on their sites about how their free speech was trampled. Or should I say their attempt to trample free speech was trampled.
31 posted on 06/09/2002 7:11:49 AM PDT by gracie1
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To: Mama_Bear
I've been tring to ping you to the thread this morning, did you go and get yourself banned? I keep getting a message noone by that name.
32 posted on 06/09/2002 7:13:53 AM PDT by gracie1
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To: Jim Robinson
A Tribute to Freepers - Summer Freepathon!
Click to support the best
conservative web site on the internet!
~OR~
PayPal at [email]Jimrob@psnw.com[/email]
Snail mail at FreeRepublic, LLC.
PO Box 9771, Fresno, CA 93794
Let's have some fun!
33 posted on 06/09/2002 7:36:04 AM PDT by WIMom
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To: Jim Robinson
Hooray for all you all! Hooray for Lager! (Texas Ranger style there, Lager, "One Riot, One Ranger.")
34 posted on 06/09/2002 7:43:08 AM PDT by bvw
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To: Jim Robinson, xvb
I want my money back from Israel. I don't support them. I don't support their leading us to war. I don't support their leading us down a path that led to the deaths of thousands of Americans on September 11. I don't support their leading us down a path of diminishing liberty at home, the strengthening of our federal government, and the acceleration of a developing police state.
If you want to take a collection to fund Israel, I have no problem with that. I am not "anti-Israel". But using my money for acts that I find unconscionable is wrong.
It is unconstitutional and immoral to force me to support a foreign nation that I do not support with the fruits of my labor. Especially considering that my forced support of this nation has led us to this present miserable situation of expanding government and diminishing freedom.
Some sadly are Israel over America - over life and liberty (no pun intended), as responses in this thread clearly shows:
[url]http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/696972/posts?page=54[/url]
35 posted on 06/09/2002 8:20:56 AM PDT by NC_Libertarian
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To: gracie1; lager
did you go and get yourself banned?
LOL!!! No, I don't think so ... but you know that feisty Mama_Bear, always pushing the envelope. LOL!
I don't know why you would have gotten the 'no such member' message. I think even if you leave the underscore out or don't capitalize it would still go through to me. Now, if you spelled it Mama_Bare, that could have caused it. LOL!
Thanks for the ping, great pictures!
lager, good on you for holding those war protestors back! :-)
36 posted on 06/09/2002 9:56:59 AM PDT by Mama_Bear
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To: jim robinson, dennisw, lent, remaininlight, sjackson, yehuda, catspaw, benf, nachum, lent
Great photos. Bump.
37 posted on 06/09/2002 11:35:57 AM PDT by veronica
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To: jimmyclyde, grlfrnd, cinnamongirl, johnhuang2, college repub, long cut, thinkin' gal, sabramerican
Bump.
38 posted on 06/09/2002 11:37:35 AM PDT by veronica
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To: NC_Libertarian
You can't have your money back from Israel. You can't have your money back from Egypt either for that matter. As a matter of fact, you can't have your money back from any of countries we have given money to.
I love collection funds for the Jews in Israel, expecially using US funds. I hope that we give them 10 billion next year.
It is constitutional and moral to support the Jews in a sea of murderous Nazi-like people who teach their children that murder is their highest calling.
39 posted on 06/09/2002 12:15:17 PM PDT by Nachum
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To: Nachum
The purpose of our tax money is not for international welfare - We shouldn't be giving any countries our money - not Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Israel, or anybody else.
This is not the purpose of government, and it is explicitly not the purpose of our government as outlined in the constitution.
40 posted on 06/09/2002 12:19:24 PM PDT by NC_Libertarian
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To: dennisw; TopQuark; Alouette; OKCSubmariner; veronica; weikel; EU=4th Reich; BrooklynGOP...
Middle East list
If people want on or off this list, please let me know.
41 posted on 06/09/2002 4:36:33 PM PDT by knighthawk
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To: knighthawk
BTTT.
42 posted on 06/10/2002 7:10:42 AM PDT by veronica
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### Sertorius
*2005-05-21 14:41* | [User Profile](/od/user/26)
Howard,
Ah yes, how could I forget the halcyon days at Sam Francis Online with our mutual friends HBendor and the one AntiYuppie called "B'nai B'rith? And how can we forget the obnoxoius teen that I exchanged many a pleasant post with? (Damn! I [B]have forgotten[/B] his name!)
Seriously, I believe they leave us alone because there are simply too many people that know them and their tricks. In a fair debate where you can't rely on the moderators to remove a particular troublesome opponent it can be quite embarrassing for them. On a related subject I heard a caller take on the head of the Phoenix, AZ ZOA on the *Charles Goyette Show*. Goyette isn't sympathetic to the Neocons and allowed this guy full operational freedom to tear the Ziocon up. The same thing would happen here and they know it, so other than an occasional troll, they do pretty much leave us alone.
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### Sertorius
*2005-05-21 14:43* | [User Profile](/od/user/26)
Todd,
Who put up the original post about "Plan Daisy"?.
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### Howard Campbell, Jr.
*2005-05-21 15:02* | [User Profile](/od/user/244)
Free Republic
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**It's truly vile to see how many "American" Jews and Dispensationalist *shabbos goyim* actually cheer on the mass-murderof American kids...**
Israel attacked the USS LIBERTY - (June 8, 1967)
Sun Herald ^ | June 6, 2002
[url]http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/696972/posts?page=54[/url]
Posted on 06/08/2002 6:19:28 PM PDT by RCW2001
Israel attacked the USS Liberty
North Port barber was 'spook' aboard spy ship
Chuck Hendricks was fighting for his life aboard the USS Liberty, a Navy spy ship, 35 years ago today. His ship was attacked by unmarked Israeli fighter planes and three high-speed torpedo boats off the Sinai Peninsula in the Mediterranean Sea during the 1967 Six-Day War between Israel and Arabs.
Thirty-four American servicemen were killed and 171 wounded in the unprovoked attack on the lightly armed Liberty during the air-sea battle that lasted more than an hour. Hendricks was one of the lucky ones -- he was only injured.
Israeli forces attacked the Liberty because the surveillance ship's crew knew Israel was going to attempt to capture Syria's Golan Heights, a strategic position coveted by Israel. This was something Israelis didn't want the world to know about in advance, particularly the United States.
The 57-year-old North Port barbershop owner was a communications "spook" aboard the intelligence-gathering ship collecting electronic information from the super-secret National Security Agency. He was injured when the Israelis strafed, bombed and torpedoed the Liberty.
"The Israeli attack on the USS Liberty was a grievous error largely attributable to the fact that it occurred in the midst of the confusion of a full-scale war in 1967," the Jewish Virtual Library on the Internet notes.
Retired Adm. Thomas Moorer, former Chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff, in a 1997 statement on the anniversary of the attack said, "... Israel knew the Liberty could intercept radio messages, ... that (it) was preparing to seize the Golan Heights from Syria despite President Johnson's known opposition. I believe Moshe Dayan concluded he could prevent Washington from becoming aware of what Israel was up to by destroying the primary source of acquiring that information, the USS Liberty," Moorer noted.
Hendricks was a 22-year-old communications technician 2nd class from Brazil, Ind., serving aboard the Liberty. It was cruising just off the Sinai Peninsula in international waters in the Mediterranean on June 8, 1967. He had been to the Navy's language school and was one of 100 intelligence gatherers aboard ship conducting electronic eavesdropping.
The Six-Day War was four days old when the Liberty arrived near the coast. It was close enough that Hendricks remembers seeing smoke from the fighting on shore.
"The U.S. wanted to know more about the quality of the Russian fighter planes and tanks they were supplying the Egyptians who were involved in the war against the Israelis," he said. "This was a good time to find out about their military hardware.
"In the morning a flying boxcar circled our ship. It took pictures of us and the pilot waved. I could see the Star of David on the wing of the transport circling overhead. I felt secure, Hendricks recalled.
Flying in plain view from the mast of the Liberty was the American flag. On the bow were large letters that read: "GTR-5." It signified the ship was a technical research vessel.
"Sometime in the early afternoon, several (unmarked) Israeli (French Dassault Mirage) jet fighters came in flat off the horizon and strafed our ship," he said. "I was on the deck taking a break. Their bullets sounded like gravel when they hit the deck.
"I ran for my battle station below. I almost reached the hatch when the planes made another pass. The men in front and behind me were hit.
"Then one of the jets fired a rocket at our bridge. When it hit, the blast picked me up and threw me head first into the bulkhead. I was stunned and sustained a concussion, but I scrambled below deck to my battle station," Hendricks said.
The jets were sill pounding the almost defenseless spy ship as the crew was radioing for help. The U.S. 6th Fleet was 450 miles west of the Liberty.
The carrier USS Saratoga scrambled fighters to come to its assistance. But Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara recalled the fighters while they were in the air.
Military experts maintain the secretary wasn't certain who was attacking the Liberty. They say he thought it might be the Russians and he didn't want to start World War III.
"About that time the attacking fighters flew off. We still had things under control," Hendricks said. "About 15 or 20 minutes later, three French-made Israeli torpedo boats showed up about 500 yards off the Liberty.
"'Stand by for torpedo attack!' a voice said over the intercom a few minutes later. "My next recollection after that was there was water in my face. A torpedo had hit 12 feet from where I was, one deck below and one compartment forward."
It blew a 40-foot hole in the side of the Liberty
"I was pitch black in the compartment. Water was coming in fast from the hole in the ship's side. I couldn't breathe very well because of the cordite in the air from the exploded torpedo," he said.
Hendricks was dazed, cut by shrapnel wounds and had suffered a badly burned ear when the torpedo detonated. He got to his feet and made his way in the dark toward the compartment door.
"I was the first one out of our compartment. Water was up to my waist by then," he said. "As I tried to get through to the passageway, the compartment door closed on me because of the water pressure. I was pinned tightly.
"I tried like hell to get out of there, but I couldn't. By the time the water got up to my neck, I went limp and started saying my prayers in the dark," he said. "Somehow a guy who was making his way down the passageway bumped into me and dragged me free of the door.
"I could see a light up ahead in the passageway that led to a ladder going up to a hatch that opened onto the deck. We both made it and climbed up to the big hatch. It was dogged down tight. All that was open in the center of the big hatch was a smaller scuttle hatch," Hendricks said.
Two Marines were standing at their battle stations on deck near the hatch that he and his buddy were trying to escape through.
"I stuck my arms through the scuttle hatch. The Marines pulled me through to safety.
"I was told one of those Marines went down through that little hatch two times and pulled two more men to safety. On the third rescue attempt he didn't make it out. I believe he received the Silver Star Medal posthumously."
The gun boats that were circling the Liberty were shooting at anything on board that moved. They even machine gunned a life raft that was put over the side when the crew thought the ship might sink, according to accounts of the engagement.
"By this time, they had apparently decided it was too late to sink us because the world already knew what was going on with them in the Six-Day War," Hendricks said. "I have no doubt, if they could have sunk us without the world knowing, they would have."
The first friendly ship he and the rest of the crew aboard the Liberty saw was a U.S. destroyer. It arrived the next morning.
Hendricks had received medical attention for his wounds by then, but he was airlifted by helicopter off the Liberty to the carrier, the USS American, for further treatment. He spent four or five days recovering from his injuries.
By then the Liberty made port. It looked like a piece of Swiss cheese, he said. It had a gaping hole in its port side and 821 bullet and rocket holes from the Israeli attack.
The spy ship's crew was "... forced, by the powers that be, to sign documents saying they would never talk to anyone about the attack," Hendricks' said. "But I was on the carrier recovering and didn't sign anything."
He said he wants to make it perfectly clear he has no animosity toward the Jewish people because of the attack on the Liberty. It's the Israeli government he is upset with as a result of the incident.
The Navy and the U.S. government tried to put a lid on the whole affair. They quickly repaired the damaged to the ship and kept the crew away from the media.
But over the years, more and more of the tale has surfaced.
Immediately after the Liberty docked, a board of inquiry was convened aboard ship. It was attended by a bevy of admirals and generals. It produced nothing of any lasting consequences, despite the fact more than 200 U.S. Navy personnel had been killed or wounded.
"The captain of the carrier Saratoga said that both Johnson and McNamara knew (while the attack was still going on) it was the Israelis who were doing the shooting. I think the president and the secretary of defense would have been just as happy if we had sunk. It would have saved a lot of embarrassment," Hendricks said.
"The shame of it is, the people who were running this country at the time weren't doing what they should have been doing.
"All of us aboard the Liberty were young men back then. We did our duty, just like the guys who fought in Vietnam," he said.
"It's the higher-ups that failed. They're the people that didn't do their duty. "My generation didn't fail this country. This country failed my generation."
Capt. McGonagle receives Medal of Honor
Capt. William L. McGonagle was the skipper of the USS Liberty when it was attacked by Israeli fighter jets and torpedo boats. His Medal of Honor commendation reads:
"For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty. Sailing in international waters, the Liberty was attacked without warning by jet fighter aircraft and motor torpedo boats which inflicted many casualties among the crew and caused extreme damage to the ship.
"Although severely wounded during the first air attack, Capt. McGonagle remained at his battle station on the badly damaged bridge and, with full knowledge of the seriousness of his wounds, subordinated his own welfare to the safety and survival of his command. Steadfastly refusing any treatment which would take him away from his post, he calmly continued to exercise firm command of his ship.
"Despite continuous exposure to fire, he maneuvered his ship, directed its defense, supervised the control of flooding and fire, and saw to the care of the casualties. Capt. McGonagle's extraordinary valor under these conditions inspired the surviving members of the Liberty's crew, many of them seriously wounded, to heroic efforts to overcome the battle damage and keep the ship afloat. Subsequently to the attack, although in great pain and weak from the loss of blood, Capt. McGonagle remained at his battle station and continued to command his ship for more than 17 hours.
"It was only after rendezvous with a U.S. destroyer that he relinquished personal control of the Liberty and permitted himself to be removed from the bridge. Even then, he refused much needed medical attention until convinced that the seriously wounded among his crew had been treated.
"Capt. McGonagle's superb professionalism, courageous fighting spirit, and valiant leadership saved his ship and many lives. His actions sustain and enhance the finest traditions of the U.S. Naval Service."
His commendations
Chuck Hendricks was awarded the Purple Heart, the Presidential Unit Citation, along with the rest of the Liberty's crew, National Defense Service Medal, Combat Action Ribbon and the Good Conduct Medal.
You can e-mail Don Moore at [email]moore@sun-herald.com[/email]
By DON MOORE
Senior Writer
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TOPICS: Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Government; Israel
KEYWORDS: USSLIBERTY
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To: NC_Libertarian
One thing you should know is that no matter how correct you may be there are some issues that are so visceral for some types of people that they cannot be swayed to think otherwise. One of those issues is Israel.
I myself consider Israel to be a great nation, and i support it in a myriad of ways. And i have several ties to that nation even. HOWEVER my love for Israel is not sufficient to make the sinking of the USS Liberty for no concrete reason become 'nothing!' I may love Israel but when they do a wrong they do a wrong. Just because it is an ally does not mean they can do anything carte blanche.
However (sadly) not everyone is able, or willing, to let logic rule over their emotions. There are many to whom Israel can do no harm...even when it sinks an American ship based on some silly assumption the ship may warn the Golan Heights (think of it....why would we EVER do such a thing)! Thus trying to convince them otherwise is not a real possibility since the emotions tied to this issue are not only socio-political but also religious, cultural and even pseudo-emotional! It would be very hard to convince such a person that Israel did any wrong, even when American sailors are killed.
And the funny thing is that if you substituted Israel for almost any other 'American ally,' for eaxmple Saudi Arabia or even Turkey, i seriously doubt those ardent 'Israel did no wrong/I respect Israel for having the audacity to sink a US ship' would be as supportive of Riyadh. Actually there would be war cries for a 'punitive strike.'
Howevers ince it was Israel someone even had the temerity to say that he 'admires Israel for going aheda with the strike on an American ship knowing the possible risks involved.' If he had said that about ANY other country (Britain INCLUDED) he would have been called a traitor! However in the case of Israel people keep silent since they do not want to be viewed anti-Israel.
However i am totally pro-Israel...YET i will say Israel did wrong in this case. And no justification can erase the fact that Americans were blown up for no good reason whatsoever.
51 posted on 06/09/2002 7:59:29 AM PDT by spetznaz
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To: PoppingSmoke
I hate to tell you this. No one cares. The reply you will get is either, the Isreali's made up for this or its old news. Yes the Liberty was attacked by Israel. Know anyone who wants to do something about it?
Send the USS Cole after them!!!
Oops. Our innocent, guileless, honorary aryan "anti-Communist" Ay-rab friends took care of that one!
My bad!
52 posted on 06/09/2002 8:01:34 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator
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To: rdb3
Well perhaps, but I don't appreciate people casually dismissing Americans getting murdered for the good of a foreign nation.
53 posted on 06/09/2002 8:02:11 AM PDT by NC_Libertarian
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To: Aric2000
Israel has payed the reparations
That's rediculous to say they paid reperations when we give them billions every year. WE PAID OUR OWN REPERATIONS.
54 posted on 06/09/2002 8:06:23 AM PDT by NC_Libertarian
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To: Zionist Conspirator
Aaaaaaarghhhhhhh!
Do you not understand! Those who question what Israel did are not anti-zionist nor neo-Nazis! They are just raising a question, and the last time i checked that was allowed without people automatically ataching a label to you. Several, including myself, have even asserted that they are totally pro-Israel. They are just angry such a thing happened.
And as for your statistics on how may Americans have been killed by Israel as compared to other nations, all i have to say is this.
It is true thousands of American lives have been lost due to Arab/Islamic atrocities! Furthermore if you think of it even more Americans have died under British rifles (during the war for Independence) and under Japanese and German ammunition (during WW2).
However the point of this thread was not to have a score tally of how many Americans were killed under whom! Everyone knows Islamic fundamentalism is the greatest threat to the world today! They know the Jehadis want to see Americans dead or dying! However that is not the fundamental core of the thread here.
This thread is about an incident where 34 Americans were killed and over 170 injured. And while 34 dead is not comparable to the thousands that perished during the murderous act of 9-11; it is still 34 dead! And i am sure the families of the 34 slain view that occurence than just a number!
And if you think of it we are at war with the Jehadis! We were at were with the Germans and the Japanese during WW2. We were even at war with the Britons back in the day! However in the USS Liberty case the US was probably one of the EXTREMELY FEW nations to ally with Israel, even to recognize it as a state, and YET the Israelis decided to attack the ship for some lame reason!
I may be pro-Israel, but that stinks!
55 posted on 06/09/2002 8:09:38 AM PDT by spetznaz
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To: ProbableCause
The fact that Isreal was able to deliberately attack our navy in international waters--and get away with it completely--tells you a lot about how our country is run. Anyone who says the attack wasn't deliberate is either a fool or liar.
[Sarcasm]
It's the Jews! They secretly rule the world! Some little old pious bearded man in black is dictating national policy! They're forcing stores to close on s*t*rday! They're telling our kids they're descended from a single couple created exactly 5751 years, eight months, and 28 days ago! They make us bless G-d a hundred times each day! They're going to rebuild the Holy Temple and bring about the Kingdom of G-d! WILL NO ONE STOP THIS MADNESS!!!
[/Sarcasm]
This "the Jews secretly rule the world" blasphemy is the oldest cr*p in the book, but everyone who stumbles upon it for the first time thinks he's found something new and dangerous that no one else has ever thought of before. They remind me of those little junior high school kids who think they're the only people who've discovered sex.
56 posted on 06/09/2002 8:16:56 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator
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To: spetznaz
I appreciate your balanced view. Those who support this attack, weaken their whole position in support of Israel IMO.
57 posted on 06/09/2002 8:23:57 AM PDT by NC_Libertarian
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To: Zionist Conspirator
An atrocity is an atrocity no matter the numbers of killed involved. Just because Milosevic, Pol Pot, Osama and Hitler caused the deaths and suffering of multitudes does not mean that they redeem the crazy drunk who throttles his wife and clobbers his kids one Saturday! The Osamas and the Pol Pots and the Hitlers may be more publicized, and they definitely caused more pain and suffering, but that does not mean the crazy drunk should be set free since 'his crime did not weigh as much as those of the genocidal maniacs!'
A murder is a murder, whether 1 is killed or 6 million... it is only the magnitude the changes. And 34 Americans killed for no reason is the same as 3000 getting killed in 9-11.....the only difference is the magnitude and the intentions.
And to those who have tried to justify the actions of the Israelis as pre-emptie strikes to ensure tha USA does not warn the Golan heights, and even go as far as to 'admire' Israel for having the audacity to attack the Liberty!
That makes me sick!
58 posted on 06/09/2002 8:24:27 AM PDT by spetznaz
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To: spetznaz
I have called No one names, you have every right to be angry over the Liberty. It DOES NOT make you a nazi or an antisemite or whatever.
But, I believe that something that happened 30 years ago in the middle of a war, is something that can be tossed to the school of hard knocks, learned from, and move on.
You may be angry about the fact that lives were lost due to an ally attacking us while that ally was at full scale war and a fight for survival, but, I cannot be. Israel was looking out for it's survival, SURVIVAL!! HELLO, they believed that the Liberty posed a clear and present danger to the plans that it had in place. It was a spy ship for gods sake, and they had no clue what the preisdent would have done with that information. "yo, the Israelis are going for the heighths, watch yourselves up there." or something to that effect. The Israelis did not have a clue, and therefore did what they thought was militarily right in order to win the battle.
You may say that we would not have released that information, but do you really know that? Are you telling me that the US would not have done the same in that position. If you say no, AGAIN, you are a dreamer.
Israel did what it thought it had to do inorder to protect it's military and goals at the time. Nothing more, nothing less. It was not personal, it was strictly business. Can't handle it? Oh, well, I have learned in business that you had better be able to.
It was a hornets nest and we got stung, perhaps we should A: either keep our hands out of the nest, or B: help them out to a point where they no longer distrust us enough to attack one of our ships. B is what we have been doing, and it is what we should continue to do. Not because the Jews are god chosen people or whatever dogmatic crap you want to believe in, but because it is the right thing to do. Israel is the ONLY democracy in the middle east, they are the ONLY non-muslim country in the middle east. It is a shining example to those despots and their people, right in their midst,what a democracy and capitalist system can do. That is why we should support Israel.
Why do you think MOST Palestinians want to work in Israel? Why do you think that they are really pissed about the wall going up, because they would have to starve in the Pali lands, whereas there is work and money in Israel. Israel must be saved, it must be thrown into the face of those Muslim freaks that their political system does NOT work, but Israels does.
So, again I say, it is ancient history, it will not happen again, SO GET OVER IT!!!
59 posted on 06/09/2002 8:33:25 AM PDT by Aric2000
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To: spetznaz
For of all I do not bash Israel. I tell it like it is. When they do things wrong, they need to be hammered, just like we do when we piss in peoples back yards and then just leave. When Israel is right, like right now, then they need to be supported. When they spy against us, then we need to hammer them. this goes for any allied country.
The USS Liberty did indeed happen. It was an Attack on a UNARMED US Intelligence Ship. If we can go after people who have committed crimes 15-20-30 years ago, then we can also continue this investigation.
That is all I am saying. But then again, no one in position cares and there is another major election cycle coming up.
60 posted on 06/09/2002 8:35:59 AM PDT by PoppingSmoke
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To: NC_Libertarian
I'm definately not going to put much stock into the insults of a religious fanatic who calls evil good.
Sir:
All the evil in the world has been caused by deviation from Theonomic positivism, the understanding that right and wrong are determined not by human reason but by Divine decree. It is this value system derived by non-Theistic means that is the very heart of Communism--not "collectivism" or "loss of liberty" or "violations of rights" as you rightwing atheists claim.
The idea that one can arrive at an objective truth about absolute right and wrong by beginning at the self and reasoning outward is the hallmark of Hellenistic humanism. Perhaps you should go to some John Dewey messageboard? When you're not at "originaldissent," that is.
You begin with the foundational thesis that the universe and life are random and meaningless, then you say "this being the case, let us logically deduce how to create the best situation for all people." This is illogical, since in a random, meaningless universe people are no more than rocks or leaves. Do leaves or rocks engage in political philosophy or speculation about "the good life?" No the do not. My advice to you is exactly the same I would give an atheist Communist: kindly go out and practice what you preach by sitting under a tree and doing nothing but let moss grow on you (like a rock) until the random, meaningless processes of the universe claim you. The fact that you advocate "liberty" while Communists advocate "totalitarianism" is a non-issue. Neither of you have any business holding any ideals whatsoever. If you are a materialist, please act as though you were material!!!
Kindly leave the business of ideals to those of us who believe in G-d, who alone have any business having any beliefs or ideals whatsoever. And if we do indeed "destroy the world" as you imply by your "taliban" crack (oooh, is that supposed to be an insult?), so what? After all, the world is random and meaningless. Why do you atheist idealists act as though you don't believe your own constantly proclaimed doctrines? Do you perhaps believe that even in a random, meaningless, material universe that your ideology has metaphysical implications?
Go back to your 18th Century deist Masonic lodge, Mr. Jefferson (SPIT!!!).
As for calling evil good and good evil, these concepts do not exist in the atheist worldview (libertarian or socialist) and you are a base hypocrite for using them. Leave them to us who leave their defintion to Divine decree.
61 posted on 06/09/2002 8:36:09 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator
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To: Zionist Conspirator
It's the Jews! They secretly rule the world! Some little old pious bearded man in black is dictating national policy! They're forcing stores to close on s*t*rday! They're telling our kids they're descended from a single couple created exactly 5751 years, eight months, and 28 days ago! They make us bless G-d a hundred times each day! They're going to rebuild the Holy Temple and bring about the Kingdom of G-d! WILL NO ONE STOP THIS MADNESS!!! [/Sarcasm] This "the Jews secretly rule the world" blasphemy is the oldest cr*p in the book, but everyone who stumbles upon it for the first time thinks he's found something new and dangerous that no one else has ever thought of before. They It's the Jews! They secretly rule the world! Some little old pious bearded man in black is dictating national policy! They're forcing stores to close on s*t*rday! They're telling our kids they're descended from a single couple created exactly 5751 years, eight months, and 28 days ago! They make us bless G-d a hundred times each day! They're going to rebuild the Holy Temple and bring about the Kingdom of G-d! WILL NO ONE STOP THIS MADNESS!!! [/Sarcasm] This "the Jews secretly rule the world" blasphemy is the oldest cr*p in the book, but everyone who stumbles upon it for the first time thinks he's found something new and dangerous that no one else has ever thought of before. They remind me of those little junior high school kids who think they're the only people who've discovered sex. .
I have tried to be gentle, but i have to do this! It is a sign of low intellectual acumen to attack another Freeper just because he posted something you do not believe in! The purpose of this forum is for conservatives to get together and discuss issues pertinent to our world! And since it is a discussion portal there will obviously be some who have divergent views from your own.
And all the posts i ahve read up to now, none of the posters has said he/she is anti-Israel. some like myself have even asserted they are pro-Israel. All they are doing is questioning what happened, and how that incident was treated after that!
Yet you automatically assume they are anti-Israel anti-zionist conspiracists, who, in your own words, 'remind me of those little junior high school kids who think they're the only people who've discovered sex.'
Again it is a sign of low intellectual acumen to use an acerbic tone to counter people you do not agree with. These people do not hate Israel! They just love America enough to question events that do no make sense! They are not willing to let certain acts by a foreign government be swept under a rug! (and no matter how you look at it Israel may be our good ally, but it is still a foreign government unless you have an Israeli citizenship).
Anyway it would be appreciated if in your replies and posts you state facts, or post opinions. Either is fine since this forum is for factual information or personal/social/political opinions. However calling people anti-zionist conspiracists, or anti-Israel xenophobists, or even alluding them with 'high school kids discovering sex' is not only silly but very akin to the behavior of kindergarten age children! And most importantly not befitting!
62 posted on 06/09/2002 8:37:39 AM PDT by spetznaz
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To: Valin
"Willis Carto and the Liberty Lobby. Serving all your nutcase needs since 1955."
Everything comes to an end one day. In Carto's case it will not be soon enough. It's too bad Carto started off the right way, but as in politics he went astray. I can no longer support any of his positions.
63 posted on 06/09/2002 8:39:50 AM PDT by PoppingSmoke
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To: Zionist Conspirator
Okay. Thats enough.
Seriously.
I usually try and avoid these types of threads. I dont even really bother to read them or post to them if I can but your comments are getting ridiculous. Too bad it hurts your fweewings that this issue is being brought up.
There are people that post on the USS Cole, The Khobar Tower bombings and other issues.
Maybe if the damn ship never would have been attacked to begin with and the matter hadnt been drawn out for so long then this entire discussion wouldnt even be happening in the first place. But I suppose that would be way to complex a concept for you to wrap yourself around.
Its no different from the WW2 veterans and Fillipino citizens that are currently seeking a full investigation from the Japanese government for the Bataan death march. Even though that was over 50 years ago.
Are you going to tell those individuals to stuff it too? I didnt think so.
So get off it. American servicement have the right to question what happened, as well as why the matter was handled in the way it was. If you feel its inappropriate that it is being brought up at this time or that the matter is settled both are points of view that can be argued on their own merits.
64 posted on 06/09/2002 8:40:06 AM PDT by cascademountaineer
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To: Aric2000
Thank you Aric, a very intelligent and well thought out reply.
65 posted on 06/09/2002 8:40:42 AM PDT by cascademountaineer
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To: one_particular_harbour
"Perhaps some lawyers hunting around for WWII money would assist the family members of deceased and wounded sailors in getting reparations."
One could only wish...
66 posted on 06/09/2002 8:42:40 AM PDT by PoppingSmoke
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To: Aric2000
There are 3 reasons i find it hard to 'forget it.'
1) Something did happen, and i would like to know why it happened and why it was covered up. However the more solid reasons why this is really sticking in my head are as follows:
2) Statements from people like Zionist Conspirator where he accuses some of being Aryans and alluding them to 'highschool kids discovering sex'!
and
3) Statements as follows (this one by VBthang4): The attack would've never come had some pussy Liberal President not woken up one morning on the wrong side of God and decided that he was opposed to the Israelis taking ground slated for them to have. Hell, I respect them that much more for doing it knowing the risks involved
That makes me even more pissed at what happened if American citizens can be so flippant, even going as far as 'admiring' Israel!
67 posted on 06/09/2002 8:45:14 AM PDT by spetznaz
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To: spetznaz
Congress didn't find anything wrong. They said it was an accident.
68 posted on 06/09/2002 8:47:20 AM PDT by AppyPappy
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To: Zionist Conspirator
Now you are saying that this Freeper is the same as an eighteenth century Mason, and putting the word SPIT in brackets next to that!
Are you ok sir?
69 posted on 06/09/2002 8:47:26 AM PDT by spetznaz
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To: Zionist Conspirator
This is not a thread about 'Theonomic Positivism' nor about Helenistic Humanism,' and we are not John Dewey lovers, neither do we belong to '18th Century Deist Masonic Lodges.' Those who do not agree with you are also not 'Aryan' 'highschool kids thinking they discovered sex' 'anti-semitic conspiracists' or any of the other terms you have used derisively against us.
And none of us like the word SPIT put in brackets next to the accusation that we belong to some Masonic lodge!
Please start stating facts, or posting your opinions. Continuing to insult others (even when the insults are pathetically hilarious) will get you reported for abuse!
70 posted on 06/09/2002 8:53:56 AM PDT by spetznaz
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To: Aric2000
The post you were referring to (no 55) was directed towards Zionist Conspirator not towards you. Z.C has been inundating the thread with some rather silly insults and labels towards people who do not agree with his views.
That post was not towards you but towards ZC, who seems to find calling people Aryans and sex-crazed high school kids as his only modicum of logical (or in his case illogical) communication.
71 posted on 06/09/2002 8:58:41 AM PDT by spetznaz
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To: cascademountaineer
Thank you, You guys have every right to ask for an investigation, but the fact is that Israel did it, it is Obvious WHY they did it, now it is time to make sure that all those reasons are no longer there.
72 posted on 06/09/2002 9:01:16 AM PDT by Aric2000
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To: spetznaz
I understand, I just wanted to toss that out there and let you know that there are some of us that disagree with you that will NOT resort to namecalling. I believe that namecalling is the last resort of someone who has no facts and therefore will discredit the person instead of the argument.
I think the person that you were aiming at, needs to chill out and get a life, or a get a better argument.
IMHO anyway.
73 posted on 06/09/2002 9:04:30 AM PDT by Aric2000
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To: spetznaz
Spetnazz, member since m*y 9, 2002. You are one to determine what this forum is for, aren't you? I have been a member of this forum a lot longer than you have (unless you're actually some banned anti-Semite sneaking back under a new name).
At any rate, you say this is a forum for "conservatives." What is a "conservative?" I'm from the Fundamentalist Bible Belt, and I always thought all conservatives thought as I did. I joined the Birch Society and learned different.
Whether or not I am a "conservative," I am most definitely a Fundamentalist, a Theocrat, a Ben Noach, and a "Theonomic positivist" (correctly understood). I am very sorry our country was founded by rationalist/deist Freemasons, but it was. I'm sorry the American Revolution was the first cause celibre of the International Left, but it was. I'm sorry that most of our national heroes in all fields have been extreme liberals in religious matters (despite what Pat Robertson thinks), but it is true nonetheless. I must ultimately derive my beliefs not from George Washington or the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution, but from A-mighty G-d. G-d is the only yardstick by which all things are to be judged. I reject all secular criteria whatsoever. If this attitude is "un-American," so be it (I notice ultra-rightwing Catholics are never scolded for holding similar opinions).
Hashem is G-d. Despite James Madison and the Bill of Rights, all people everywhere, individually and corporately, are bound by Divine Law--not "natural" law and not human law. G-d has more authority than James Madison, even if He is "un-American." And one of the things forbidden to all is blasphemy.
As you know (and as you admit on that **other** messageboard where you guys hang out), the whole idea that it is one of the highest tenets and goals of the conservative movement to single out the USS Liberty for outrage, out of all US history, is merely an excuse to attack the "conspiracy" at its "heart." Many of your buddies in fact who deny they are anti-Semites here often post comments about "Judaeo-Bolshevism" and "the tribe" (and how we Benei Noach are tools for the "evil, new age" goal of rebuilding the ancient House of G-d and reinstituting the `Avodat HaQodesh) on that other website without even bothering to use a different posting name!
Your tactic of "now, has anyone here said he was anti-Israel?" is transparent. Anti-Semites never admit they are anti-Semites in the presence of others. However, among themselves they certainly admit and glory in this, thus branding themselves as bald-faced liars.
Likewise, your tactic of "well now, it happened, didn't it? You can't deny that?" is a common anti-Semitic ploy, similar to "hey, all I said is that Karl Marx was Jewish. You can't deny that!" Small atomistic bits of truth ripped out of context can be put to sinister use.
BTW, I'm watching you guys on that other forum, so be careful what you post there. Just a friendly word of warning!
All things, including the entire American system, must be critiqued from the perspective of the Law of G-d (as the rightwing Catholics say without fear of attack). If that means I am not "conservative," so be it.
BTW, accusations that I am falling short of secular standards of right or virtue have absolutely no effect on me, since I abjure all those standards.
Thank you.
P.S.: Know where I can get a red heifer?
74 posted on 06/09/2002 9:05:15 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator
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To: RCW2001;veronica;lent;yehuda;dennisw
Where'd you find this...What a bunch of BS....Hey, is this one of our anti-semetics incognito...
Here We Go Guys...another bunch of BS ping...
75 posted on 06/09/2002 9:08:25 AM PDT by KLT
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To: all
amazing. an article such as this CAN be used by people to argue whatever agenda, be it pro-Israel/anti-Israel, they wish. but when you take it at face value what happened is, the Israelis attacked a KNOWN U.S. vessel. That some of you can defend this action just boggles the mind. I mean, you are U.S. citizens, right? But, it's ok if another nation, be it ally or not, attacks our forces, because, well, it was in that nations self-interest to do it. I mean, what business does the U.S. have in spying on our allies, right? Screw our own self interests, right? And if we get our nose bloodied because we were spying on an ally, oh well, we deserved it. Re-f*cking-diculous. So, next time an ally is caught spying on us, let's go balls-out and hit them as hard as can, repurcusions and opinions be damned. Attack a few of their military assets. Sentence a few of their spy's to death. I can't understand how you could can defend an attack on our armed forces by an ALLY for WHATEVER reason. It makes absolutely NO sense. (My apologies for not being very coherent, I just woke up...)
76 posted on 06/09/2002 9:08:25 AM PDT by anka
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To: spetznaz
Hey, spet...we can love America and love the land that was the beginning Christianity....we can love both....even if everything in this article is true...which I highly doubt, it was 35 years ago...and we've had many more atrocities happen since then...Let's get on with it...OK
77 posted on 06/09/2002 9:12:59 AM PDT by KLT
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To: Zionist Conspirator
Geez, a self righteous bible thumping hardcore something or other.
I see now why Spetznaz is angry, you are one of those, because I believe in god, I AM RIGHT and ALWAYS RIGHT!!
Does god tell you what his plan is? does he call you on the phone and say," hey, the Jews and Israel are my chosen people, so you defend them, PERIOD." Did God call you on the phone, did he tell you this himself?
And I thought the Talibunnies were bad, GEEZ, they got nothing on you. Tell god that I said hi the next time you "talk" with him and he tells you what his plans are.
78 posted on 06/09/2002 9:13:22 AM PDT by Aric2000
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To: Zionist Conspirator
LOL, you are funny. Very funny. And although at first i just doubted your locial acumen now i find myself questioning your very sanity.
And by the way what is this 'other forum' that you are 'tracking' me and 'others lime me' in? Please share your 'secret' with us so we may all know extent of your delusions.
And now to counter some of your silly lil' assertions (i find this a hilarious task by the way):
Spetnazz, member since m*y 9, 2002. You are one to determine what this forum is for, aren't you? I have been a member of this forum a lot longer than you have (unless you're actually some banned anti-Semite sneaking back under a new name).
I may have become a member in May, and you may have been in this forum for much longer....however if you look at the quality of our posts at the very least (whether you agree with my opinions or not) i do not resort to juvenile name calling. Calling people 'sex-crazed high school kids!' That's just plain weird.
At any rate, you say this is a forum for "conservatives." What is a "conservative?" I'm from the Fundamentalist Bible Belt, and I always thought all conservatives thought as I did. I joined the Birch Society and learned different.
Just because someone is a conservative does not mean they think like you do! Not every conservative is, as you refer to yourself, a 'Fundamentalist, a Theocrat, a Ben Noach, and a "Theonomic positivist.' In the United States of America everyone DOES NOT have to think the same....that is a communist/socialist facet of life.....in the US we are a constituitional republic with certain rights and priviledges, one being that we do not have to all think like you do (thank goodness for that).
BTW, I'm watching you guys on that other forum, so be careful what you post there. Just a friendly word of warning!
Oh please please...reveal my secret identity as Hilary Clinton to the rest of the Freepers. Ooohh, you have me! I knew i could not hide from you (super-hyper-duper SARCASM!)
P.S.: Know where I can get a red heifer?
Wow, you are one of those who are looking for a red heifer. Well, i will help you with that one. A red heifer was found in Israel (and maybe if you were to check that out instead of 'seeing' neo-Nazis and Aryans left right and center) you would know that! I am not sure whether the Rabbis have termed it clean or not! Or maybe it is some nefarious plot by outer-space alien aryan high school kids bent on world domination!
Tadadadadada.
You are very funny.
79 posted on 06/09/2002 9:21:55 AM PDT by spetznaz
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To: Aric2000
And as I said to "NC_Libertarian," if you don't believe in G-d, kindly stop acting as if you were more than a rock or a tree. Drop the ideals and the values.
Your kind always accuse us of "trying to impose our beliefs on others." So do atheists. The only difference is that at least we believe our beliefs come from a Supreme Authority while you admit that yours are nothing but your own hang-ups, which somehow makes them reasonable and all right. This is exactly what the Communists do, btw.
Oh, and anticipating your next old, tired worn-out argument (if G-d is the basis of right and wrong, which G-d shall we choose?), then I'll take care of that now. Here goes: You know, you're right. No one can show which G-d is really true. So what do we do? Wow, I suppose we're right back to arguing over which hang-ups of which atheists shall be imposed on the human race. Isn't that so much better??? [/Sarcasm]
If I argued my points not on Divine authority but because I could logically deduce from Hellenistic rationalist principals that it would produce "the good life" would that make it okay to call for the rebuilding of the Temple and the reinstitution of animal sacrifices?
Sheesh.
If I were an ultrarightwing Lefebvrist Catholic rather than a Noachide you people would welcome me with open arms. I notice that even their monarchism is considered good maiinstream conservatism. I guess I believe in the "wrong" G-d.
80 posted on 06/09/2002 9:23:15 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator
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To: KLT
I get your point of view, and i see your point (and it makes sense). Actually at present i am engrossed with reading the posts of a fellow called Zionist Conspirator, who is with absolute certainty the 'funniest' Freeper i have ever had the pleasure of seeing of FR. (its nice to have a morning laugh i guess)
81 posted on 06/09/2002 9:24:39 AM PDT by spetznaz
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To: Aric2000
Hey Aric, i answered ZCs 'questions.' Check # 79 for my answers.
By the way he claims he knows my 'secret identity!' Ai yi yi! This is getting weird now!
82 posted on 06/09/2002 9:28:03 AM PDT by spetznaz
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To: spetznaz
At least none of the people who normally show up on these threads and claim that the Liberty was transmitting intel to the Egyptians has shown up on this thread yet. Of course they never have any evidence that the Liberty was doing any such thing.
83 posted on 06/09/2002 9:28:45 AM PDT by aristeides
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To: Zionist Conspirator
The Talibunnies knew that they were right too, the Mayans knew that sacrificing their children to god was right too.
What a wonderful belief system you have, Because this is what I think, it is right. Because, why? Are you god? because if god is the only one that can tell you what morality is, but whatever you do is moral and right, then that must mean that YOU are god, because you KNOW it's right.
Well, if you don't mind, I won't be falling on my knees and worshiping you any time soon.
84 posted on 06/09/2002 9:40:10 AM PDT by Aric2000
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To: aristeides
Well, those people may not have come...but Zionist Conspiracist sure does give them a run for their money.
Hey, maybe we should ask ZC if he has any info on where we can bag the Sasquatch! I here there is a huge bounty on a live specimen of a Bigfoot!
85 posted on 06/09/2002 9:42:04 AM PDT by spetznaz
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To: spetznaz
I haven't laughed this hard in a while, he is great entertainment, if nothing else!! LOL
I should thank him for making my Sunday morning so funny!!
86 posted on 06/09/2002 9:42:24 AM PDT by Aric2000
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To: CanadianFella
You are smoking dope if you are trying to equate a friendly fire incident with a deliberate attack. The Liberty was attacked because Israel did not want the US to gather proof that they were using military technology purloined from the US. The Liberty could have proven Israel's extensive espionage activities against the US.
87 posted on 06/09/2002 9:45:55 AM PDT by Diogenes of Sinope
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To: Zionist Conspirator
And if you are so RIGHTEOUS why then are you subjecting others to pathetics insults, and making blind judgments on them just because they happen not to agree with your wolrd view!
I think actions speak louder than words....and your posts totally run counter to what you say you are!
I really did not know 'ben noachs' had the 'power' to claim to be just and righteous, yet resort to underhanded middle schoo taunts and such silly stuff! To me you just sound like another deluded person ranting incoherent stuff, and claiming to do so under some Divine compulsion. For one i know for a fact that if you were under divine guidance you would not be name calling!
88 posted on 06/09/2002 9:47:29 AM PDT by spetznaz
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To: Aric2000
I really do not know what to say about him. At first i thought he was some prankster trying to add spice to this thread, but when he started speaking of Red Heifers, Ben Noachs and Positive Hellenistic theonimics (WHATEVER) my warning bells started ringing really fast!
Well, i guess the good thing is that if he is busy posting his silly comments on FR he cannot be outside his home burning innocents at the stake as 'nefarious Masonic Warlocks,' nor trying to petition congress to convert every male in the SouthWestern USA into either Amish or Mennonites.
In essence he is harmless as long as he is on FR, thus i guess it is a good thing! Right?
89 posted on 06/09/2002 9:52:08 AM PDT by spetznaz
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To: spetznaz
In essence he is harmless as long as he is on FR, thus i guess it is a good thing! Right?
ROFLMAO!! He is harmless here because we actually think on this board, we are free thinkers who do not go along with the crowd, or herd, as the case may be. This guy loose in the general populace scares the holy bejeesus out of me though.
90 posted on 06/09/2002 9:54:56 AM PDT by Aric2000
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To: Diogenes of Sinope
The Liberty was attacked because Israel did not want the US to gather proof that they were using military technology purloined from the US. The Liberty could have proven Israel's extensive espionage activities against the US.
A laughable, stinking lie from you. But then you already knew this.
For better or for worse the USS Liberty was a spy ship that was 12 miles off shore doing some snooping while a very serious war was going on. A very high stakes war to defend Israel and evolving into taking the Golan from Syria.
91 posted on 06/09/2002 9:56:30 AM PDT by dennisw
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To: Aric2000
they are the ONLY non-muslim country in the middle east
Lebanon is a Christian country. My grandfather was a Presbyterian minister in Sidon.
92 posted on 06/09/2002 9:57:15 AM PDT by NC_Libertarian
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To: NC_Libertarian
Yes, and there are christian missionaries in the Philipines too, I guess that makes them a christian country as well?
93 posted on 06/09/2002 10:02:06 AM PDT by Aric2000
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To: Aric2000
Actually what would scare me even more is if he kept his 'interesting' views, yet somehow managed to sound coherent and intelligent!
That would be a horribly potent combination since you could never tell he is a 'few villagers short of a village' until it was too late.
Hence it is a good thing mr.ZC spouts forth his ludicrous notions like he does since it gives the rest of the sane world a warning.
IMHO he should be thankful he is a Positive Hellenistic Theocratic Bene-i-Noach Theonomicistic Red-Heifer searching Fundamentalist in the USA. Why? Because in places like the Middle East they have people like him strap on the suicide bombs to their bodies!
94 posted on 06/09/2002 10:03:16 AM PDT by spetznaz
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To: spetznaz
Or they stone them to death.
But we won't go there. LOL
95 posted on 06/09/2002 10:05:17 AM PDT by Aric2000
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To: CanadianFella
""Israel apologized for the tragedy and paid nearly $13 million in humanitarian reparations to the United States and to the families of the victims in amounts established by the U.S. State Department. The matter was officially closed between the two government by an exchange of diplomatic notes on December 17, 1987."
No you should study the facts surround this "Humanitairan Reparations". The note you mentioned specified (Details of the Israeli compensation payments can be found in U.S. Department of State Bulletin, vol. lviii, no. 1512, June 17, 1968, and vol. lx, no. 1562, June 2, 1969, and U.S. Department of State Daily News Briefing, DPC 2451, December 18, 1980).
Israel had to pay over $6 million in restitution to the families of those wounded and killed. An additional $6 million in damages was paid under a 1980 agreement in which Israel and the United States consented "not to address the issue or motive or reopen the case for any reason." . Why?
Lets see 34 killed, 172 wounded. 12 million payed as "Himanitarian Reparations", you do the math. NO PUNISHMENT was delivered to anyone for a direct action on a FLAGGED Allied Vessel. NO Apology was granted.
The Israeli court of inquiry, all of which found no proof whatsoever that Israel knowingly attacked an American ship.
On the contrary, facts surfaced 25 years laters that Israel comitted an inexcusable act of negligence, or at worst the premeditated murder of American servicemen. We added to this by hiding the facts. This chnages everything! For this 12 million to 34 KIA and 172 WIA? Of which most was money "WE" gave to Israel as foreign aid. Thats just great, we got some of our money back. That is the kind of payout that anyone would want. That was it.
The truth on the attack changed everything. You get the facts straight.
96 posted on 06/09/2002 10:23:47 AM PDT by PoppingSmoke
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To: Zionist Conspirator
All the evil in the world has been caused by deviation from Theonomic positivism, the understanding that right and wrong are determined not by human reason but by Divine decree. It is this value system derived by non-Theistic means that is the very heart of Communism--not "collectivism" or "loss of liberty" or "violations of rights" as you rightwing atheists claim.
First of all I am not an athiest. I beleive in God and absolute morality. I do not beleive that any human walking the earth is the arbiter of what this morality is. The quest for that truth is between the individual and God.
You refer to "Devine decree". You are still makeing your determination of the divinity of such a decree by your flawed human reason. You are not super human.
The idea that one can arrive at an objective truth about absolute right and wrong by beginning at the self and reasoning outward is the hallmark of Hellenistic humanism.
I am absolutely NOT an objectivist. I reject that philosophy outright. And I think that humanism is one of the most destructive religions the world has ever seen.
Perhaps you should go to some John Dewey messageboard? When you're not at "originaldissent," that is.
I don't know who John Dewey is.
You begin with the foundational thesis that the universe and life are random and meaningless,
Wow, you have made a HUGE assumption about me, that is absolutely not true. Life is essentially a spiritual experience, and has meaning far behind our woefully inadequate comprehension.
then you say "this being the case, let us logically deduce how to create the best situation for all people."
No, I do not beleive it is our purpose in life to save the world. Utopia doesn't exist, and in the quest to "create the best situation for all people", we allow acts of great evil into the world. "The road to hell," and all that.
This is illogical, since in a random, meaningless universe people are no more than rocks or leaves. Do leaves or rocks engage in political philosophy or speculation about "the good life?" No the do not. My advice to you is exactly the same I would give an atheist Communist: kindly go out and practice what you preach by sitting under a tree and doing nothing but let moss grow on you (like a rock) until the random, meaningless processes of the universe claim you. The fact that you advocate "liberty" while Communists advocate "totalitarianism" is a non-issue.
Again, I don't beleive the universe to be random or meaningless.
Again, I beleive in an absolute morality, but the utter falibility of man. No morally fallible man is worthy of ruleing another. That is why I beleive in liberty.
Neither of you have any business holding any ideals whatsoever. If you are a materialist, please act as though you were material!!!
I am not material.
Kindly leave the business of ideals to those of us who believe in G-d, who alone have any business having any beliefs or ideals whatsoever.
How arrogant! You are made of the same stuff as every other man who walks the Earth. You are just as fallible. You are just as subject to the limitations of your human reason and logic. You should bear that in mind. I beleive humility is a virtue.
And if we do indeed "destroy the world" as you imply by your "taliban" crack (oooh, is that supposed to be an insult?), so what?
The taliban remark was in referance to the statement "get over it." The taliban said the same thing about 9/11.
And so what? So nothing. Everything is ultimately as it's supposed to be. We're going out one way or another. That fact is self-evident.
After all, the world is random and meaningless. Why do you atheist idealists act as though you don't believe your own constantly proclaimed doctrines? Do you perhaps believe that even in a random, meaningless, material universe that your ideology has metaphysical implications?
Of course your whole rant is pointless as it was based on an incorrect assumption about me.
But I will say, even to the faithfull athiest, his ideology does have metaphysical implications. He is the child of the same God as are you and I. Personally I think athiesm is among the most absurd of faiths. But those who think that abstract symbolic words impart absolute truth upon them certainly rival the absurdity of the person who thinks he naturally observes absolute truth.
Go back to your 18th Century deist Masonic lodge, Mr. Jefferson (SPIT!!!).
Charming.
As for calling evil good and good evil, these concepts do not exist in the atheist worldview (libertarian or socialist)
But good and evil DO exist, and that is why the athiest world view is false.
and you are a base hypocrite for using them. Leave them to us who leave their defintion to Divine decree.
More arrogance.
97 posted on 06/09/2002 10:27:45 AM PDT by NC_Libertarian
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To: Zionist Conspirator
Whether or not I am a "conservative," I am most definitely a Fundamentalist, a Theocrat, a Ben Noach, and a "Theonomic positivist" (correctly understood). I am very sorry our country was founded by rationalist/deist Freemasons, but it was. I'm sorry the American Revolution was the first cause celibre of the International Left, but it was. I'm sorry that most of our national heroes in all fields have been extreme liberals in religious matters (despite what Pat Robertson thinks), but it is true nonetheless. I must ultimately derive my beliefs not from George Washington or the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution, but from A-mighty G-d. G-d is the only yardstick by which all things are to be judged. I reject all secular criteria whatsoever. If this attitude is "un-American," so be it (I notice ultra-rightwing Catholics are never scolded for holding similar opinions).
You are human, and are an imperfect reciepient of the word of God. You are not qualified to dictate God's will to me.
98 posted on 06/09/2002 10:36:34 AM PDT by NC_Libertarian
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To: KLT
Hey, is this one of our anti-semetics
anti-Israel killing Americans is not anti-semetic.
99 posted on 06/09/2002 10:37:49 AM PDT by NC
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### Sertorius
*2005-05-21 16:02* | [User Profile](/od/user/26)
I love this nonsense:
[QUOTE]Because God promised Abraham and his descendants, "I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse You."[/QUOTE]
We really have been "blessed" since 1948. If this is a "bless(ing)", I'd hate to see what it means to be cursed.
There are people on this board I consider to be highly literate on the Bible. I would even go so far to say historians. Some of you people might consider putting together the "Antidispensationalist Manifesto". I would bet you could find enough material from Revelation and the other books to make the case that by embracing Israe and Zionism we really have brought a curse upon us. While I can make the argument the decline of America started in 1865 one could use 1948 as a benchmark when we were at the height of our power and [B]economically self sufficent[/B] as the start of the modern decline using Israel and tribal actions here in America to deconstruct the country.
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### Okiereddust
*2005-05-21 16:20* | [User Profile](/od/user/29)
[QUOTE=Sertorius]I love this nonsense:
We really have been "blessed" since 1948. If this is a "bless(ing)", I'd hate to see what it means to be cursed.
There are people on this board I consider to be highly literate on the Bible. I would even go so far to say historians. Some of you people might consider putting together the "Antidispensationalist Manifest". I would bet you could find enough material from Revelation and the other books to make the case that by embracing Israe and Zionism we really have brought a curse upon us. [/QUOTE]Hey, I'm sure CI types have aready done it from a literalist Protestant point of view, while of course Sobran and others have been doing it from a conservative Catholic point of view for years.
Of course the masses never read this stuff. The read the comic strip versions ("Left Behind" etc.) after having already been conditioned.
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### Sertorius
*2005-05-21 17:03* | [User Profile](/od/user/26)
Okie,
I haven't thought about the CI types, but upon reflection I think something that left out some of their nuttier beliefs would be in order. As for Sobran I'll have to check out some of his writings in *The Wanderer*.
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### Howard Campbell, Jr.
*2005-05-21 21:20* | [User Profile](/od/user/244)
[QUOTE=Sertorius]Okie,
I haven't thought about the CI types, but upon reflection I think something that left out some of their nuttier beliefs would be in order. As for Sobran I'll have to check out some of his writings in *The Wanderer*.[/QUOTE]
RimJob's quoting that Biblical verse comes off as deeply insincere--his site is dominated by the RNC Bush fetishists and the ADL thugs but depends on the Dispensationalists and Rapturist dittoheads for grassroots numbers--especially since the purges of most Third Party conservatives and Libertarians.
Traditionalist Catholics like Joe Sobran have always regarded the Rapturist heresy as absurd as it is blasphemous...
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### askel5
*2005-05-21 23:37* | [User Profile](/od/user/136)
IMHO as ex-FAB member, indeed the rise of the ZIONIST ping list ended up a genuine purge of the Board.
What was most interesting about that operation is the way that the Mods began monitoring posters across sites and impugning them based on their having linked to, mentioned or posted on boards such as this one. I believe Mercuria probably still has the "Star Chamber" thread wherein the Mods are following intently my having gone to LF for assistance with cobbling together a list of FReepers purged courtesy of the ZIONIST ping list membership.
What was truly amusing about that episode is that, having been accused of being an anti-semite for defending purged posters on the FAB and having leveled accusations against the ZIONIST ping list, I'd been asked to provide more information ... which I didn't have because until it was brought to my attention the ZIONIST ping list was gangbanging posters into oblivion, I'd never paid much attention to the Israel threads.
I announced I'd go canvas the net for info and ... next thing you know ... the Clouseau types at FR are wondering what I'm up to at LF. Too funny.
But sad, in a way, given the fact that such smooth-brained types are representative of the Inner Ring at FR nowadays.
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### Sertorius
*2005-05-21 23:58* | [User Profile](/od/user/26)
Askel,
Is this the thread you allude to?
[url]http://www.originaldissent.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-10660.html[/url]
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### Okiereddust
*2005-05-22 00:13* | [User Profile](/od/user/29)
[QUOTE=Sertorius]Weisbrot noted the same thing about "Veronica"/"Penacite" and "her" (sic) posting habits. Multiple posts done in a very short amount of time and at all hours indicating it was more than one person.
[url]http://www.originaldissent.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18950&postcount=16[/url]
Perhaps I should p.m. her and ask for "her" input on this new thread?[/QUOTE]The Veronica/Penacite thing of course has been acknowleged and recognized a long time. I don't know if its been emphasized though that Daisy11 as I recall was just the successor ID of Penacite, which of course ties this all back to Free Republic, which is a vastly larger forum than Liberty Forum. (It certainly doesn't say much of today's conservatives that they continue to stick with JR and FR.)
Might be nice to have a succinct summary/review of all this info. But I think it clearly shows that some jewish dominated organization, with substantial resources - personal, financial, political, and technical, (for the internet) was involved in an effort to influence these boards. One can study their fingerprints. Clearly they keep trying and would like to controll all cyberspace, even though the were obviously more successful with Jim Robinson than with "John Deere".
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### Centinel
*2005-05-22 00:41* | [User Profile](/od/user/119)
[QUOTE=Sertorius]Weisbrot noted the same thing about "Veronica"/"Penacite" and "her" (sic) posting habits. Multiple posts done in a very short amount of time and at all hours indicating it was more than one person.
[url]http://www.originaldissent.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18950&postcount=16[/url]
Perhaps I should p.m. her and ask for "her" input on this new thread?[/QUOTE]
For awhile now, the veronica entity has been posting on LF as "bypass" and for some reason has abandoned the penacite/jazzfan accounts there. To my knowledge she/it still posts as jazzfan on LP and Clown Posse.
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### Centinel
*2005-05-22 00:51* | [User Profile](/od/user/119)
[QUOTE=Okiereddust]I don't know if its been emphasized though that Daisy11 as I recall was just the successor ID of Penacite
I'm not convinced that's the case. IMO Daisy11 (now just plain Daisy) and veronica/penacite/jazzfan/bypass are two separate posters, though allied in their goals.
While we're on the subject, it would not surprise me in the least if ruevin turned out to be HBendor. And some of the other LF ziobots--bonzo, alama, basher, and others--probably are FR regulars.
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### Okiereddust
*2005-05-22 02:05* | [User Profile](/od/user/29)
[QUOTE=Centinel]I'm not convinced that's the case. IMO Daisy11 (now just plain Daisy) and veronica/penacite/jazzfan/bypass are two separate posters, though allied in their goals.
Well what got me thinking that was that Daisy11 seemed to jump up to the forefront just about the time that Penacite suddenly dropped away.
Which leads me to believe that the corporate identities that controlled and coordinated Daisy11/Penacite also worked closely with each other. Which means they're pretty indistinguishable practically, whatever their respective origins and controllers.
> While we're on the subject, it would not surprise me in the least if ruevin turned out to be HBendor. And some of the other LF ziobots--bonzo, alama, basher, and others--probably are FR regulars.[/QUOTE]They'd have to be. And you wonder how closely they coordinate their efforts also.
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### Ponce
*2005-05-22 02:21* | [User Profile](/od/user/901)
I am a anti-Israeli and a anti-Zionist but I am not a anti-Semite for the simple reason that one has nothing to do with the other one and as a matter of fact the Semites are anti-Israeli and anti-Zionist.
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### toddbrendanfahey
*2005-05-22 06:30* | [User Profile](/od/user/142)
Howard:
A poster called "WindRiverShoshoni" placed the PLAN DAISY post online, having tracked the IP addresses of "Daisy11" through a complicated cyberventure with "The Skunk."
"The Skunk" had installed pictures at LibertyForum, where, when clicked upon, would harvest the clickers' IP addys. Very smooth. ...but the Zion-Mod-Bots at LF didn't like that one bit, and "WindRiverShoni" was banned permanently (he revealed the coordinated plan that was Plan Daisy, see?). "The Skunk" has been banned and then reinstated several times.
Anyone who persists in reposting "Plan Daisy" is banned, permanently, at LF.
I am...[B]banned[/B] from LibertyForum.org.
(And from LP and, of course, FR.) These Israeli-firsters don't want anyone f*ckin' with their operation; it's that simple.
"John Deere" disappeared last July and hasn't been heard from (supposedly) since. "Astoria" and "gjenkins"--both major f*cks--have taken over Control of LF; but the domain name pulls a Rip Van Winkle in February, so they're very concerned about "John Deere"'s intentions for the site.
That's a summation.
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### Howard Campbell, Jr.
*2005-05-22 17:31* | [User Profile](/od/user/244)
[QUOTE=toddbrendanfahey]Howard:
A poster called "WindRiverShoshoni" placed the PLAN DAISY post online, having tracked the IP addresses of "Daisy11" through a complicated cyberventure with "The Skunk."
"The Skunk" had installed pictures at LibertyForum, where, when clicked upon, would harvest the clickers' IP addys. Very smooth. ...but the Zion-Mod-Bots at LF didn't like that one bit, and "WindRiverShoni" was banned permanently (he revealed the coordinated plan that was Plan Daisy, see?). "The Skunk" has been banned and then reinstated several times.
Anyone who persists in reposting "Plan Daisy" is banned, permanently, at LF.
I am...[B]banned[/B] from LibertyForum.org.
(And from LP and, of course, FR.) These Israeli-firsters don't want anyone f*ckin' with their operation; it's that simple.
"John Deere" disappeared last July and hasn't been heard from (supposedly) since. "Astoria" and "gjenkins"--both major f*cks--have taken over Control of LF; but the domain name pulls a Rip Van Winkle in February, so they're very concerned about "John Deere"'s intentions for the site.
That's a summation.[/QUOTE]
Thanks, TF.
I recall that the expose of Plan Daisy at LF was quickly spun by the Ziobots into an issue of "dirty raghead" Shoshoni spying on forum members and insulting moderator Nuke...
But why would genuine Libertarians accept organized commissar scum from the ADL violating *everyone*'s privacy and the integrity of the forum?
**What exactly do you mean by the expiration of LF's domain name? Has RimJob taken an option?
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### toddbrendanfahey
*2005-05-22 21:14* | [User Profile](/od/user/142)
Easy answer: LF has been inconsistent-to-laughable since its inception. The "Moderator wars" there are legend, and now there's not even a pretense of it being the type of site that "John Deere" sought (futilely) to build.
I do hope that it times-out in February. Too many fools atop its hierarchy.
On the last question: I've only read multi-threads pertaining to its domain-name expiration date; no doubt someone has queued up to buy it by now. But the software/code belongs to "John Deere," and if it ain't reregistered by him, the whole URL changes "looks." Probably it was picked up by a porn portal by now... :smartass:
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### toddbrendanfahey
*2005-05-28 14:33* | [User Profile](/od/user/142)
Here is the Liberty Forum article that exposed the operation of an organized Israeli loyalist hasbara operation at Liberty Forum, masquerading as a single individual called "Daisy11" ~ who joined Liberty Forum on November 23, 2002, and had added 11,097 posts by July 20, 2003 ~ 46.43 posts per day for 239 days, posting literally around the clock ...
[NOTE: Liberty Forum Privacy Policy prohibits posting of 32-bit IP addresses that may tend to locate a private individual member of Liberty Forum. Following standard Internet usage, the last octet of every IP address posted was replaced with an asterisk. Information not included in original article, restored or added to this report, is shown in green. Some spelling has also been corrected.]
Daisy11 posts regularly from 212.198.0.97, an anonymizing proxy server in Paris; and ALSO shows up in my server logs from 199.182.24.27, 199.182.22.248, 207.221.131.85, 24.62.164.57, 209.234.160.37 (January and February), and from 204.116.106.164, 130.94.107.139, 130.94.106.251 (in July and August). Get the picture? Not quite? Okay...
[complete article here: [url]http://sianews.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2456][/url]
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