← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · All Old Right
Thread ID: 9742 | Posts: 18 | Started: 2003-09-12
2003-09-12 11:47 | User Profile
My mother tells me of a problem Jew who says she is there at a Christian bible study because the town has no synagogue(who's fault is that?). Of course, the woman controls the discussion most of the time and even decides (loudmouth) much of what the group will study. The group is largely over 70 and this punk woman is much youger(50 or so) bullying the elderly(gee, that's unusual for a Jew, huh?) I suspect this is a national campaign. I hope to figure out how to get some real national input on how big this problem might be. Tought I'd check here at OD. A big problem is pacifist (guutless) pastors who misinterpret meekness for weakness, and refuse to admit Jews still hate Christians and foil them any chance they get.
2003-09-12 16:01 | User Profile
A Jew in a Christian bible study is an abomination. No offense to the Jew, but the two really don't mix. Christians even study the Old Testament from a different perspective. Why do these Christian woman allow the Jew in? So what if there's no synagogue in town?
Look on the bright side, I doubt any old people will be changing their religion (BTW, Judge Bork recently became a Roman Catholic). It's not like this Jew is throwing her weight around where their are impressionable young children.
2003-09-12 18:48 | User Profile
Happy Hacker:
**A Jew in a Christian bible study is an abomination. **
Maybe the Bible study group wants to share the Gospel with the Jewish woman?
Romans 1 *16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. *
Rather than the Old Testament, Romans and Galatians would be excellent texts to cover.
2003-09-12 19:29 | User Profile
Originally posted by Centinel@Sep 12 2003, 12:48 * ** Happy Hacker: *A Jew in a Christian bible study is an abomination. **
Maybe the Bible study group wants to share the Gospel with the Jewish woman?
Romans 1 *16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. *
Rather than the Old Testament, Romans and Galatians would be excellent texts to cover. **
Ha. There isn't much sharing going on, except from the Jewish woman's side. She doesn't let anyone else get a word in, other than address on a point she has made. They spend most of the time in OT and not a lot in gospel. The pastor doesn't know what to do, let her run the thing, or risk protests and lawsuits from the Jewish community. I'm all for kindness and sharing, but this situation is now one of self-defense. You try to share food with cannibals, you end up "dinner".
2003-09-12 19:42 | User Profile
A pushy Jew brazen enough to teach the Christians the "real" Christianity? Who would have thought?
I suggest you show some hostility to the Christ-killers.
2003-09-12 19:42 | User Profile
The answer is both apparent and bereft of hope: The pastor must grow a pair.
2003-09-12 20:19 | User Profile
phoenix8313:
The pastor doesn't know what to do, let her run the thing, or risk protests and lawsuits from the Jewish community.
Avoidance of the Gospel in Bible study isn't a Christian option. If it "offends" then it offends.
Matthew 28 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
1 Corinthians 1 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
Galatians 1 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
2003-09-12 21:01 | User Profile
Originally posted by Centinel@Sep 12 2003, 14:19 * ** phoenix8313: The pastor doesn't know what to do, let her run the thing, or risk protests and lawsuits from the Jewish community.*
Avoidance of the Gospel in Bible study isn't a Christian option. If it "offends" then it offends.
Matthew 28 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
1 Corinthians 1 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
Galatians 1 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. **
I agree. All the pastors I see around here are just in it for the housing and the retirement. They utter some sanitized doctrine that's designed not to offend and have no salt in their words, no seasoning. The congregation likes not being challenged, chuck a little money in the collection plate, eat some covered dish lunches, smile and laugh a lot, do what they want and pray for forgiveness afterwards, and go clunking along as if all is well.
Yes, the pastors are gutless, and the "flock" of the church like the stress-free environement of idleness. This Jewish thing gets them all tied up in the OT and they are scared to venture too deep into the NT, because the subject will come up, "Are the Jews saved?". I heard a pastor on the radio say Jews would be saved because they were just playing out the role they had been assigned in life and God understood that. :shock: That's not what my bible says, no matter what the translation.
2003-09-12 21:15 | User Profile
phoenix8313:
This Jewish thing gets them all tied up in the OT and they are scared to venture too deep into the NT
Huh? How can one claim to be a Christian and not study the NT in detail?
Is this congregation dispensational (Christian Zionist)? They aren't getting into the fad du jour of the Hebrew Roots/Sacred Name movement, are they?
Some good tracts on this dangerous new trend:
[url=http://www.acts17-11.com/snip_legalism.html]The New Legalism[/url]
[url=http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/tlamb/Name.htm]The Name: An exposé on the Hebrew Roots/Sacred Name Movement[/url]
2003-09-12 21:39 | User Profile
AntiYuppie:
The danger of Jewish infiltration of Christian circles lies not in the threat that Christian gentiles will convert to Judaism.
Spiritually speaking, AY, that is a very real danger in the Hebrew Roots/Sacred Name movement. Look at people like Arator, who veer off into Noahidism, though he probably started out as an evangelical.
I don't have any problem with sincere Jews who want to convert to Christianity and retain some of their ceremonial traditions, so long as they can properly distinguish between law and Gospel. But for the most part, the Messianic movement has turned into a fad among dispensational churches--which ones don't at least have Passover seders now? At best, the Hebrew Roots movement is a lure to get Christians back under the law, and at its worst it leads into occult and kabbalistic activities. Like much of the dispensationalism it flourishes in, it emphasises emotion and experiences over the Gospel message.
Of course, the temporal-political fallout of all this is the poison fruit that it bears: producing fanatical Zionists with an un-Christian worldview.
Check out the tract link of the Hebrew Roots expose I posted earlier in this thread. At the bottom of that tract you'll see all the kooky cults being spawned out of this movement.
2003-09-12 22:43 | User Profile
wintermute:
**They point out rightly, as I have, that there is no basis for Sunday worship and this is opposed to YHVH's stated intent. I pointed this out, but it brought no answer from Protestants here - since there is no answering it. **
Romans 14 5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
Colossians 2 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Galatians 4 10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.
According to the New Testament the Sabbath was a sign pointing to Jesus, who is our rest. Since Jesus has come as our Savior and Lord, God no longer requires us to observe any one particular day for worship
New Testament believers have often chosen to worship on Sunday, to commemorate the day of our Savior's resurrection.
The Resurrection of Christ from death (the event now commonly called Easter) was regularly celebrated, probably on a weekly basis, ("the first day of the week," that is, Sunday), and soon became the basis for our Sunday worship tradition.
2003-09-12 22:56 | User Profile
wintermute:
Now here comes the Sacred Name movement, with another unanswerable objection: Jesus is not Jesus' name - it's Yeheshua. There will be much handwaving from the Sola Scriptura crowd here, but no real objection is possible, just as there is no real objection to Sabattarianism.
[url=http://www.lcms.org/cic/truename.htm]http://www.lcms.org/cic/truename.htm[/url]
Q. Is it true that some believe that the only true name for God is "Yahweh" and that salvation is possible only by believing in this specific name for God?
A. Yes. Groups that belong to what is called the "Sacred Name" movement consider it necessary for salvation to believe in and use the names "Yahweh" for God and "Yahshua" for the Messiah. Usually such groups use the Old Testament alone or primarily as the basis for what they teach. Taken as a whole, however, the Bible teaches that God reveals Himself according to a variety of names, including especially the "name" of "the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit" (Matt. 28:19).
God wants us to honor Him by whatever name He has revealed Himself to us. For example, He wills that all "honor the Son as they honor the Father" (John 5:23). And as the apostles of our Lord preached and taught, it is by the name of Jesus Christ that we are saved, for "salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12). The name of Jesus is "above every name," so that "at the name of Jesus knee should bow... and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." (Phil. 2:9-10).
2003-09-12 23:58 | User Profile
wintermute,
Christian orthodoxy (small o) doesn't deny the tongues the Old Testament was penned in, nor does it deny Christ's Hebrew/Aramaic name.
Where the Sacred Name adherents go off the tracks is by insisting that salvation is not "valid" unless God is worshipped in the Father's and the Son's Hebrew/Aramaic names, rather than as revealed to believers through Scripture in their native tongue as the divine Trinity.
If the Sacred Name people are correct, then all the books of the New Testament originally penned (or translated [1] into) in Koine Greek are invalid by their logic because they refer to Christ as "Ãâ¦Ihsou'ß."
[url=http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2424&version=kjv]Strong's Number: 2424[/url]
[1] The Gospel of Matthew is subject to some debate as to whether it was originally written into Aramaic or both Aramaic and Greek. Roman Catholics believe there was an Aramaic original later translated into Greek, while Protestants tend to favor Greek or Greek and Aramaic originals. Since Matthew was a tax collector, he would have been bilingual.
2003-09-13 07:13 | User Profile
**Help me out here. What is motor or motive for millions and millions of Protestants to plunging towards Judaism like lemming into the sea? **
It isn't Protestantism as a whole, wintermute, it's dispensationalism. Because of dispensationalism's fetish with national Israel, Christian Zionists are exposed to and more interested in Jewish culture than nondispensational Protestants. Dispensationalism is almost exclusively a North American phenomenon at the present time.
Prior to Darby/Scofield, this sort of thing was unheard of on the American scene, even among Baptists.
It's still non-existant among Lutherans, Calvinists, Anglicans, and Mennonites. In fact, these faiths infuriate the Israelis with their missionary work and relief efforts among Palestinians. I don't think it's the missions per se that anger the Likudniks, but the clergy tour now and then and blow the whistle on what they see over there and stir up the American and British left.
I suspect that living in Texas you are inundated by evangelicals, and their numerical prevalance--especially in that part of the country--has shaped your perceptions of Protestantism.
On a side note, even recently what are considered staunch pro-Israel evangelicals now like Chuck Missler and Don Wildmon were termed "anti-Semitic" in that even though they were dispensationalists, they used articles from The Spotlight in the kulturkampf against Holltwood Jewish influence. It was HL Hymers and Wildmon's American Family Association bunch that picketed Lew Wasserman's LA home shouting "Bankrolled by Jewish money!" in the late 80's when The Last Temptation of Christ was made. This has all changed markedly since the 2000 Presidential election, and even moreso since 9/11. Evangelical ranks have been purged of anything remotely anti-Israel. You can bet there was an internal culling of dissenters.
Personally, I don't think the alliance between neocons and the Christian Right is sustainable over the long haul, as skirmishes over things like Mel Gibson's movie, the Decalogue, and other culture war issues force them to a crossroads and the unvoidable subject of who's behind cultural Marxism has to be tackled.
2003-09-13 11:34 | User Profile
put to one side - for the moment - the questions of Noahides.
Wintermute:
B'nei Noach is a missionary movement directed by the Lubavitcher sect of Talmudic Judaism. They prey on Christian-Zionist extremists and, as near as I can tell, find them easy pickings. Rabbis serve as apologists for the sect and write most of the missionary material. Noahides do not represent, as I first thought, the far end of the Christian Zionism spectrum that took it upon themselves to leave Christianity but a direct missionary effort by Jews to convert gentiles to a horrible Talmudic slave religion.
It isn't Protestantism as a whole, wintermute, it's dispensationalism.
Look at the Seventh Day Adventists which are a remnant of the Millerite faction of Calvinist Baptists. They reconstituted bygone Judiazing practices such as the prohibition against pork and Saturday worship. All before anyone had even uttered the word Dispensationalism. To be fair, this tendency isn't found in European Protestants, it's confined to American Protestantism and those evangelized by Americans.
**Personally, I don't think the alliance between neocons and the Christian Right is sustainable over the long haul, as skirmishes over things like Mel Gibson's movie, the Decalogue, and other culture war issues force them to a crossroads and the unvoidable subject of who's behind cultural Marxism has to be tackled. **
Unfortunately, the Dispensationalists are in effective control of the Christian Right and you grossly underestimate their capacity for self-delusion. They don't care about American culture, per se. They are only critical of modern anti-culture to the extent it helps reinforce the perception the "end of the world" is at hand. They don't expect the world to be around for long to really care about changing the situation.
Both Evangelicalism and Dispensationalism must go the way of the Shaking Quakers before the Christian right can become a force in the culture wars.
2003-09-13 12:07 | User Profile
Christians who value their souls will shun Jewish occultism.
"I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich), and the blasphemy by those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan."
Revelation 2:9
-Z-
2003-09-13 13:59 | User Profile
wintermute: I think your question about Jewish influence is answered in part by my topic. There is a constant and intentional effort for Jews to direct and influence Christians. I was on the inside of SDA for two years(in my foolish youth) and label them as a passive cult. They eventually guide followers to Ellen White as a prophet. Edit: I have to add, though, that these same people helped me along my path to Christ and gave me great kindness, taking me into their homes. Most SDA, IMO will drift away from the Jews as I have, finding Israeli behavior respulsive and contrary to even manmade laws of moral behavior.
As people have posted here, there's a natural inclination of the populace to eat good food, laugh, have sex, earn money, boast a little about how great they are, and die.
Most people'll talk a little about the details of life, but eventually want to get back to how great they are. :D So, a people like the Jews see that as ripe pickings. They figure if they throw the right bait around, it's easy enough to lure a population easily bored by details off track and in a pro-Israel direction. If you destroy a people's faith, you take their identity, and the resulting lack of unity enslaves the target. The Jews use the tactic that "everyone's doing it" to gain pro-Israel favor among Christians.
It is written in God's word that people choose and the battles of life are not of flesh. Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
The devil has many tactics to deceive from within. What better tool to destroy Christians than with the culture that Christians believe to be God's first. We see in the bible a pattern of cycles and conclusions. So, if the Jews started out as the chosen and first to decide to follow God, then they are also granted the "honor" of being the first to reject God, as not all people of any race are obedient and perfect.
The part Jews leave out is that God's final "attention" to the Jews will be punishment for rejection of Christ and their mainpulation of their position as His "first", not a pat on the back for a job well done. Many Christians misinterpret God's command to recognize Jews as His first, to be a command to serve His first, as slaves. (the Jews added the slave part in :D ) Someone correct me if scripture says otherwise, but there is nothing I have read that even remotely places Jews as people to be served for endless generations. All I want to do is stay away from them and have them stay away. Apparently, that's asking too much of them. The same way I feel about atheists. <_< They always have to slam what is written and proven true by my life experience. But, that changes nothing. I just hold my bible a bit tighter. :D
But, wintermute is right in that many Christians chase after the Jews as if that will bring them closer to God. Plus, the Jews present that as the popular choice and people tend to follow the crowd and the security of the masses.
2003-09-13 22:15 | User Profile
Oklahomaman:
**Unfortunately, the Dispensationalists are in effective control of the Christian Right and you grossly underestimate their capacity for self-delusion. They don't care about American culture, per se. They are only critical of modern anti-culture to the extent it helps reinforce the perception the "end of the world" is at hand. They don't expect the world to be around for long to really care about changing the situation. **
You are correct that some doctrinaire dispies--especially independent fundamental Baptists--refuse to get involved in the culture wars, though they're perfectly content to sit on the sidelines while lamenting cultural decay, raising red heifers on their ranches, and secretly sending donations to pro-Zionist causes. They view the world as a sinking ship, and rather than "waste" time trying to make it better, it's more important to them to save souls and wait for the rapture, since "the end" is surely at hand.
But I think it's also fair to say that there is also a fair slice of dispies who actively engage in the culture war, maybe to the extent that their lobbbying efforts even take a back seat to their evangelical efforts in many cases. How else to explain people from all over the country driving to Montgomery, Alabama, a few weeks ago to rally in support of Roy Moore?
What I find schizophrenic, for lack of a better word, is how someone can subscribe to dispensationalism yet be active in the culture war. It's almost as if they're acknowledging they have doubts about their own theology and become tempted to focus on what for them by definition are carnally-minded and worldly activities.
Interesting how conscience must gnaw their worldly aloofness, ain't it?
[url=http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/2000/03-27-2000/vo16no07_neutralism.htm]Frank York: Religious Neutralism[/url]