← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · Rudel
Thread ID: 9333 | Posts: 9 | Started: 2003-08-27
2003-08-27 17:57 | User Profile
Anno Domini 1492. It was a time when rulers still had the interestests of their subjects at heart ('Democracy' did not exist yet). Rulers like Ferdinand and Isabella of Spain, that is. Bowing to popular demand, they sent the Jews packing by issuing a royal edict - the [url=http://www.jrbooksonline.com/ALHAMBRA_DECREE.htm]Alhambra Decree[/url]. The word 'antisemitism' was not invented yet, but Isaac Abravanel's [url=http://www.jrbooksonline.com/edict_resp_by_isaac_abravanel.htm]response[/url] to the decree already contains all the ingredients of an ADL press release. Anyway, three months later, they are gone. Who says 'good old times' never existed?
Fast forward to 2002 - the descendants of the Jews kicked out in 1492 demand the [url=http://www.jrbooksonline.com/HTML-docs/Jews_back_to_Spain.htm]"Right of return"[/url] from the Spanish government. Things being as they are today, my guess is that not only will this be granted, but profuse apologies and a generous compensation funds will follow soon. Even a little girl's diary describing the events of 500 years ago (and written with a ball point penn) might conveniently pop up. Isn't progress wonderful?
2003-08-28 06:50 | User Profile
Rudel,
I don't know if you have already seen this excellent review The *'Jewish Question' in 15th and 16th Century Spain Historian Sustains Spanish Inquisition Myths
*The Origins of the Inquisition in Fifteenth Century Spain, by Benzion Netanyahu. New York: Random House, 1995. Hardcover. 1390 pages. Illustrations. Source notes. Bibliography. Index. $50. Reviewed by Brian Chalmers
It is nearly impossible to dig into any chapter of Jewish history without uncovering lessons for our own age. Spain during the 15th and 16th centuries is a particularly striking example. Even today, our view of this period, and particularly of the Spanish Inquisition, colors our attitudes regarding relations between Jews and non-Jews. The Inquisition is considered one of Jewish history's darkest chapters -- and one of Christian history's most shameful.
In 1391 intense, pent up anti-Jewish sentiment in Christian Spain erupted with great violence against the country's prosperous, well-established Jewish community. Spanish cities were engulfed in ferocious pogroms that destroyed much property and claimed many lives.
Thus began a century of conflict between Jews and non-Jews that culminated in the mass expulsion of all Jews from Spain in 1492. (Ten years later, the Muslims were likewise driven out.) In their edict of expulsion, issued on March 31, 1492, King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella announced their "decision to banish all Jews of both sexes forever from the precincts of Our realm." Ordered, on pain of death, to leave within four months, the Jews were permitted to take their personal belongings, except for gold, silver, coined money, or jewels. Estimates of the number of Jews banished generally range from about 165,000 to 400,000. An estimated 50,000 Jews chose baptism to avoid expulsion. In his diary Christopher Columbus noted: "In the same month in which Their Majesties issued the edict that all Jews should be driven out of the kingdom and its territories, in the same month they gave me the order to undertake with sufficient men my expedition of discovery to the Indies."
You will find the entire article here:
[url=http://64.143.9.197/jhr/v16/v16n1p-2_Chalmers.html]http://64.143.9.197/jhr/v16/v16n1p-2_Chalmers.html[/url]**
2003-08-28 14:52 | User Profile
Almost one year previous I posted the below. I believe it is as appropritate now as it was then.
From my book [color=blue]War, Money and American Memory[/color]> ** QUOTE A century before Dostoevsky while pondering the fall of Rome, [color=red]Edward Gibbon pronounced Jews a distinct species who boldly professed, or faintly disguised, their implacable hatred of the rest of the human race.[/color] Gibbon reminded his reader that "the wise, the humane Maimonides" openly taught that if an idolater fell in the water a Jew ought not to save him from instant death. [color=red]Maimonides, presently more famed as a seer, was a rabbi when Islamic Moors ruled Spain. His attitude may explain why Jews were expelled after Christians regained control of Spain.[/color] Gibbon pronounced Jews [color=red]an "obnoxious people" whose neighbors were fortunate Judaic power was not equal to their malice.[/color] Yet when an opportunity came to ally themselves with the Persians, Jews did so willingly. Their "[color=red]furious bigotry[/color]" compensated for their lack of discipline and lack of valor. The massacre of 90,000 Christians was imputed to Jews and Arabs. Gibbon and his opinions would not be considered acceptable in the higher schools of today's America. The defeat of the French in Quebec gladdened him as he contemplated the spread of his English language over the new world. Gibbon would not grace banquet tables where multicultural fellowship was lauded. His redemption was his writing the greatest history ever written in his native language.**
Their obnoxious attitude has long been noted: > **QUOTE Not only were the efforts of the Jews inflated, but participation of other Americans was denigrated by this oratory. Historical wrongs and achievements were chronicled in this insert into the Congressional Record. The expulsion of 165,000 Jews from Spain in 1492 was noted. Commiseration was extended to the Jewish community of Segovia, which passed their last three days in the Jewish cemetery while fasting and wailing over being parted from their beloved dead. That Jews were expelled along with Muslims was not noted. The expulsion of Muslims from Spain marked a great day in the rise of the West. That Jews also were thrown out was of secondary interest. Committed scholars could find the 12 questions of Napoleon of France to the Sanhedrin of France with answers supplied by the Jewish Elders in the same entry.
The extravagant claim by Mr. Chandler that the most brilliant oratory and statesmanship of modern times had been monopolized by two races, the Irish and the Jewish, probably aroused no suspicion in 1918. Slightly further along in this insightful monologue was an accession that the Irish of the nineteenth century produced more magnificent orators and statesmen than the Jews.**
Another astute observation by Mr. Gibbon:> *More than two centuries ago Mr. Gibbon noted the modern rabbi was modestly assured that Hermes, Pythagoras, Plato and others derived their metaphysics from his illustrious countrymen. [This proves the adage that while places and things change, people very rarely do*.] I will be doing my best over the coming weekend to stop the United States becoming a vassal nation for Jewish interests.
2003-08-28 18:43 | User Profile
Mr. Early,
Although this veers the thread subject a bit, the response of history's greats to Jewish exposure reminded me of a question I had. Recently I was reading Patton's diary entries in the immediate postwar period regarding DPs, the native German population and the treatment they were receiving. I thought I would ask you: are these diary entries for real? I know a lot of bogus material is floating around and I wanted to be sure of the material's authenticity, since it is really explosive stuff IMO, especially since Patton was there and saw it all firsthand. I figured you would know if anyone here on OD would.
No wonder this wasn't covered in the 1970 movie!
P.S. Looking forward to reading your book, it just won't be here for a month. :(
2003-08-28 19:11 | User Profile
MadScienceType (Posted on Aug 28 2003, 19:43)
Although this veers the thread subject a bit, the response of history's greats to Jewish exposure reminded me of a question I had. [color=blue]Recently I was reading Patton's diary entries in the immediate postwar period regarding DPs, the native German population and the treatment they were receiving. I thought I would ask you: are these diary entries for real? I know a lot of bogus material is floating around and I wanted to be sure of the material's authenticity, since it is really explosive stuff IMO, especially since Patton was there and saw it all firsthand. I figured you would know if anyone here on OD would.[/color] I make no claim to being a formal historian, but do regard myself as being much more than knowledgable than certified historians when determining what Americans, particularly the self-described elite, prefet to forget, but have others remember. I have read Was As I Remember It and the Patton letters as edited by Martin Blumenson. I assume there may have been some rewriting, but the contents accurately reflect Patton's inner thoughts.
2003-08-28 20:37 | User Profile
I remember reading that after the Jews were expelled from Spain, the nation suffered economically, so tight was the Jews' control over much of the mercantile system. According to the book The Grandees, by Stephen Birmingham, it would seem that the Jews alone made Spain the great power of the age. Somewhere else I read that the Moors contributed much to Spanish culture and finances, and actually helped Jews establish themselves throughout the realm. These two groups were said to be very tight with one another. Can anyone shed some light as to the validity of such claims.
2003-08-28 20:58 | User Profile
*Originally posted by DakotaBlue@Aug 28 2003, 14:37 * ** I remember reading that after the Jews were expelled from Spain, the nation suffered economically, so tight was the Jews' control over much of the mercantile system. According to the book The Grandees, by Stephen Birmingham, it would seem that the Jews alone made Spain the great power of the age. Somewhere else I read that the Moors contributed much to Spanish culture and finances, and actually helped Jews establish themselves throughout the realm. These two groups were said to be very tight with one another. Can anyone shed some light as to the validity of such claims. **
I believe that the following article should answer most of your questions:
[url=http://64.143.9.197/jhr/v16/v16n1p-2_Chalmers.html]http://64.143.9.197/jhr/v16/v16n1p-2_Chalmers.html[/url]
2003-08-28 22:52 | User Profile
Originally posted by wintermute@Aug 28 2003, 23:58 * ** > *An estimated 50,000 Jews chose baptism to avoid expulsion. **
Only 25,000 were required to have an absolute monopoly on trade, which created the need for the Inquisition. The Inquisition, in turn, created a quasi totalitarian state in Spain, while reliance on native Christian tradition prevented Spain from participating in the Renaissance. The resultant totalitarian culture was exported to South America during the age of colonization, with the results you now see. **
True. In fact it was a early form of Macarthysm, many non-jewish people suffered during the Inquisition, many were accused of being Jewish although many of them were gentile, with the accusation of being Jewish the Inquisition followers could blackmail any person.
2003-08-29 08:16 | User Profile
It might be far fetched, but I am inclined to view the Spanish civil war as an attempt of the Judeobolshevists to settle these old scores. The Spanish people managed to defeat this but at the cost of hundreds of thousands lives and the loss of their national treasure (the entire Spanish gold reserve, then the fifth in the world, ended up in Moscow).