← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · Sojourner
Thread ID: 9175 | Posts: 39 | Started: 2003-08-20
2003-08-20 16:53 | User Profile
[url=http://www.thebirdman.org/Index/Temp/Temp-BirdmansWeeklyLetter.html]LINK[/url]
Birdman's Weekly Letter #243: Big Tent #3: Old vs New Guard Racists By John "Birdman" Bryant
Date: For August 15, 2002 - Posted August 19, 2003
To: The usual suspects
From: John Bryant (john@thebirdman.org)
If you like diversity, there is no better place to find it than in the pro-white/pro-Western civilization movement, which we shall refer to simply as 'the movement'. On one extreme we have the Old Guard racists -- the KKKers and the nazis, to whom I refer to as kluxers, hakenkreuzers and the 'gas-all-Jews-now crowd'. At the other extreme we have the New Guard racists like me, who are well aware of the problems which minorities are bringing to Western civilization, but who, on a personal level, may nevertheless like Jews and Asians, and are not generally hostile to other minorities, and are in fact well aware that Jews have been very helpful to our movement (eg, Benjamin Freedman, JG Burg, Paul Rassinier, Jack Bernstein, Mark Lane -- to say nothing of those who have been 'accused' of being Jews, such as Ernst Zundel and Ingrid Rimland). An even more extreme of the New Guard type among movement people includes such individuals as Sam Francis, Jared Taylor (of American Renaissance) and the Vdare crew, who bash minorities without ever daring to say the word 'Jew'. In between these two extremes are a lot of folks who are not quite sure where they stand -- they may be riveted by the images of nazi power in Triumph of the Will and see the advantage of force in returning the West to a more pristine state, but find distasteful the artificial hatred which is imposed by the nazis, kluxers and their ilk.
For my part, I am a New Guard racist not merely because that is where my experience and feelings lead me, but also because I see it as the only politically viable route. People have been taught to hate the nazis and kluxers so thoroughly that to try to use the symbols of their movements to unite white people is not merely useless, but counterproductive, because people who go around burning crosses and wearing swastikas are going to get pilloried, and their message -- if they really have one -- is going to be lost in the noise.
Let me put it another way: The war for Western civilization and its founding race is an information war -- we have to educate people about the realities of what the liberals, and particularly the Jews, are doing to us. So hitting people in the face with widely-hated symbols like hakenkreuzes and fiery crosses will close people's minds to our message, not open them. But even if the symbols were not widely hated, they are problematic because they convey an ambience of naked power rather than reason -- they do not seek to convince, but to force. This is not to say that there will not be times in the future when force should be used; it is rather to say that such time is not the present.
The difference between New Guard types like myself and the Old Guard may perhaps be encapsulated by our attitude toward the use of the word 'negro'. This word, like the swazi or the fiery cross, carries with it the implication of both hostility and physical threat. I, in contrast, use such terms as negroidals, little brown bruthas, and numerous others which are primarily joshing rather than hostile, and which do not imply a physical threat. What this does is to make possible a dialog with other races and 'enemies', when -- as is often the case -- our policies may pursue mutually-shared goals (eg, segregation). As one can see from the Diversity section of my webpage, I have had several such dialogs.
While we of the New Guard do not hesitate to recognize the contributions of Jews and other minorities to the movement, and even to welcome them to participate, we also extend a hand of friendship to those at the other extreme. This is not merely because -- unlike so many others in the movement -- our libertarian nature is repelled by the thought of enforcing conformity, but also because, from the practical standpoint, we need all the allies we can get. Perhaps a better way to explain it is to observe that poor whites are more likely to have had extended contact with blacks and other minorities because of the whites' financial inability to escape the inner cities, and thus they are more likely to know first-hand the destructiveness of these people. The result is that these unsophisticated whites end up among the philosophically-unsophisticated nazi and klanner groups, and thereby set themselves up not only as the most vocal of pro- whites, but also as the easiest prey for Mo Dees and the other anti-whites and anti-racists to present as the essence of the movement. For this reason I have tried to educate pro-whites in the intellectual subtleties of our movement, with the hope that this education would rub off on the extremists and help them to see that their cross-burnings and Roman salutes do a lot more harm than good.
But if I am liberal in extending a hand of sorts toward both ends of the spectrum of our movement, there is one way in which I am distinctively NOT liberal, and that is that I am unwavering in my belief that the Jewish Question must be addressed squarely and thoroughly. In fact, the forces with which our movement is contending simply cannot be understood unless we factor Jews into the equation; and while some of us may feel that the Jewish swamp must be drained, while others may feel that insect repellent is sufficient, we at least cannot afford to avoid examining the pervasive role of Jews in the Western world's woes. In doing so, however, we need to remember that the Jews may not be the ultimate force behind our troubles, but only a tool for some eminence grise such as the Rothschilds or the Banksters or the Bonesmen or the Masons -- or for that matter, extraterrestrials -- who are using the Jews and their organizations for their own nefarious purposes. Since there seems to be more than just an off-chance of this, we have yet another reason for the movement to develop Jewish contacts who may be able to open doors for us that would otherwise remain forever closed.
Now before concluding this essay, I think it is useful to analyze the differences between the Old Guard and New Guard racists. In my view, the Old Guard is characterized by the following points:
A preference for authoritarianism and militarism
A greater rigidity of beliefs
An intolerance of ambiguity
An emphasis on hatred of outsiders rather than love of one's kind
A preference for physical force, rather than the use of reason and an effort to work within the system
A tendency toward internecine warfare and competition with fellow racists, rather than cooperation on constructive projects
Poor interpersonal skills
A tendency to look backward toward a glorious past rather than to plan for the future
A materialistic rather than a spiritual outlook
Most of these characteristics overlap to some extent. For example, a greater rigidity of beliefs and intolerance of ambiguity makes both for a greater tendency to hate those who are different, and a greater tendency to fight with fellow racists and to be unable to cooperate with them; poor interpersonal skills, authoritarianism, lack of a spiritual outlook and a tendency toward physical force also leads to fighting; and a lack of cooperation means that not much constructive gets done, leaving the only vision as that of a glorious past rather than one of a glorious future.
Altho I reject the Old Guard philosophy out of personal distaste, I do not wish to say that they are 'wrong' in some moral sense. The ultimate test of right or wrong is the question of what works best to facilitate the survival and prosperity of the white race and Western civilization. In my view the New Guard has the best chance, because the New Guard can best operate under the constraints of the present-day liberal zeitgeist. In particular, the New Guard has the following advantages:
Authoritarianism works well only in situations of dire physical necessity. It worked well for the nazis in post-WW1 Germany, but it will never work in the affluent West where people can live quite well off welfare checks, church food kitchens and dumpster diving.
The dogmatism implicit in rigidity of beliefs makes it difficult for the Old Guard to deal with the fact that, in the words of James Russell Lowell,
"New occasions teach new duties;
Time makes ancient good uncouth;
They must upward still, and onward,
Who would keep abreast of Truth".
Intolerance of ambiguity is characteristic of limited intelligence. It is what might be called the 'digital' philosophy that "you are either fer us or agin' us" -- that everything is black or white, with no intervening shades of gray. The reality, however, is far more analog: There are few things not surrounded with varying shades of gray. But refusing to admit ambiguity can be a great comfort, providing you are not discomfited by an ambiguous situation. And that can be trouble indeed; for ambiguity in sufficient quantity can drive people literally mad. In particular, IP Pavlov discovered that dogs who were conditioned to be rewarded when shown a circle, but conditioned to receive an electric shock when shown an ellipse, became psychotic as the ellipse was drawn closer and closer to that of a circle. In the present world there are many ambiguities which will function for the Old Guard as Pavlov's ever-rounding ellipse: The continuing change in the gene pool due to race-mixing, foreigners such as Asians or Indians who are quite as competent as whites, music and other artistic creations whose ethnic origins are ambiguous, and so on -- all these, in addition to such problematic situations as whites married to those of other races, the opposition of American ethnics to open immigration, and the help of Jews in exposing harmful Jewish behavior, are likely to drive a lot of Old Guard members up the wall and onto the psychiatrist's couch -- with a Jewish psychiatrist at that.
Any way you peel it, the onion of hatred stinks. However, when programs are put in the more positive terms of love of one's people and culture, it is a lot easier to market them; but the Old Guard has got the mud of hate so firmly smeared all over themselves as to look bad front, back, upside down and sideways. Nobody needs this kind of handicap if they are going to promote a program to save whites and Western civilization.
The use of physical force which is implied in the goose-stepping, Roman- saluting, cross-burning rituals of the Old Guard is not only completely useless, but actually counterproductive. This is not post-WW1 Germany, and we are not confronted by rioting Bolsheviks trying to take over the government. The war is an information war, and must be fought as such. Old Guard rituals do nothing but provide fodder for the cameras of Mo Dees and his ilk, who parade these images in the media and make the Old Guard look like they are somewhere between ignorant hillbillies and out-of- control animals.
The Old Guard loves the idea of street-fighting nazis with their whips and chains; but since there is no street fighting to be done in the present day, they end up eating their own -- if not in fisticuffs, then in internet forums and hostile email exchanges. It is fine to have an abundance of testosterone, but it is worse than useless if it cannot be controlled; and the Old Guard is too busy trying to 'control' their friends to bother controlling themselves.
Very few in the Old Guard have heard of Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People, and fewer yet would think that it has the least relevance to what they are supposedly doing. Which may just be telling us that what the Old Guard really wants to do is to sit around swilling German beer, yelling 'negro' and 'Jew', and constructing fantasies of what it would be like If Only Hitler Had Won. This, in addition to the inflated ego trips which they take at the expense of their comrades, virtually guarantees the extinction of any camaraderie, and thus the possibility of united action by any but a collection of zombies and their local 'fuehrer'.
People with a spiritual dimension have a distinct advantage over those who do not, because they can see the struggle for the survival of their race in a long-term perspective that those who 'live for today' cannot appreciate. This is probably the explanation for the survival of crazy religions -- and most religions are indeed crazy: They force their members to work for the long term, and this promotes the survival of their group. My own religion -- if you can call it that -- is a spiritualist one, and has the advantage of being supported by scientific investigation. The facts of spiritualism have convinced me that there is most likely something beyond terrestrial human existence, and for this reason I see the struggle for the white race and Western civilization as something beyond my own meager existence. Perhaps spiritualism will provide the key to turning the struggle around.
2003-08-20 17:37 | User Profile
This is a fairly stupid article. People that adovcate genocide and hatred are not pro-Western/pro-white they are psycopaths that hate other races. While such descriptions are pretty on base for the klan/Hollywood nazi crowd/gutteral skinhead crowd it has nothing to do with real racialism which is by nature life afirming about the folkish vision. As to birdman, he's not a racialist (new or old) as promotes porno and primacy of gut and groin. The fact that he lusts after racial aliens means that he is not some one seeking preserve and protect that which makes his race unique and special.
2003-08-20 18:07 | User Profile
** * A preference for authoritarianism and militarism * A preference for physical force, rather than the use of reason and an effort to work within the system * The use of physical force which is implied in the goose-stepping, Roman- saluting, cross-burning rituals of the Old Guard is not only completely useless, but actually counterproductive. This is not post-WW1 Germany, and we are not confronted by rioting Bolsheviks trying to take over the government. The war is an information war, and must be fought as such. **
I believe that military discipline is and has always been important to Nationalists and Nationalist movements. We are faced with physical threats everyday, and I'm not just talking about political violence. I'm talking about getting mugged when walking down the street at night and such.
So I believe physical training is and should be important to nationalists. Not just because we may have to defend our ourselves or our beliefs, but it also helps make us healthier and better people. Even many martial arts teachers say that their arts are not just for fighting, but first and foremost for personal development.
Frederich Jahn in the early 19th century established Gymnastics societies in order to promote both physical strength and loyalty to the volk. Athletic activity and societies have often, and probally will continue to be, the basis for many nationalist movements.
I don't agree with going out and attacking minorities, but I do believe Whites should be able to defend themselves when attacked. Physical training plus moral development must go hand in hand!
As for militarism, Switzerland is one of the most militarized societies in the world, yet they're not authoritarian. In fact Machiavelli's "the Art of War" is a good source to learn about the relationship between citizenship and military service. A citizen willing to give up his most important duty(protecting his country) to a mercenary(aka professional soldier) is also one who is willing to give up his precious freedoms, as often happens in history. Military service helps teach citizens the values of courage, discipline, and sacrifice; which they would need to be good citizens anyways. So military service is a key element of promoting civic virtue in a free society.
So I think this guy has a rather simplistic view of these issues.
2003-08-20 19:05 | User Profile
This guy definitely has a simplistic view.
To me old guard racists are the kneejerk people whose ideas stop at racialism; they tend to be "hate" types.
The new guard are the people who have nationalism (racism) as part of their belief system, but don't jump to extremes and rant about killing minorities. They're practical and mainstream and competent.
My favorite essay on this topic:
[url=http://www.nazi.org/current/columns/smith/column1/]http://www.nazi.org/current/columns/smith/column1/[/url]
2003-08-20 19:13 | User Profile
*Originally posted by triskelion@Aug 20 2003, 11:37 * ** This is a fairly stupid article. People that adovcate genocide and hatred are not pro-Western/pro-white they are psycopaths that hate other races. **
I don't agree with you. I thought the article was very very accurate.
I especially agree with the part about spirituality. the VNN'ers have no spiritual base. This makes them very unhappy people and connotes a "law of the jungle" type mentality.
See, VNNers think we're all animals. And only the strong survive, so we must kill....that type of thinking. The new age racists (like Vdare...excellent example) are not vicious nor do they advocate violence. And they can write prose without using constant profanities and exclamations(!!!!!!!!!!!!)
-Jay
2003-08-20 19:39 | User Profile
When John "[color=red]Birdbrain[/color]" Bryant starts emoting and pontificating, a few things about his obstinate stupidity and unwillingness to face unpleasant facts should be remembered. He refused to face the facts that Jews have connived their way out of American wars. Please see previous discussion on OD: [url=http://forum.originaldissent.com/index.php?showtopic=1611&st=40&#entry10392]http://forum.originaldissent.com/index.php...=40&#entry10392[/url]
He wrote:> But if I am liberal in extending a hand of sorts toward both ends of the spectrum of our movement, there is one way in which I am distinctively NOT liberal, and that is that I am unwavering in my belief that the Jewish Question must be addressed squarely and thoroughly. In fact, the forces with which our movement is contending simply cannot be understood unless we factor Jews into the equation; and while some of us may feel that the Jewish swamp must be drained, while others may feel that insect repellent is sufficient, we at least cannot afford to avoid examining the pervasive role of Jews in the Western world's woes. ** Birdbrain** must believe his own rhetoric at times.
perun1201(Aug 20 2003, 19:07)> *> ** A preference for authoritarianism and militarism * A preference for physical force, rather than the use of reason and an effort to work within the system * The use of physical force which is implied in the goose-stepping, Roman- saluting, cross-burning rituals of the Old Guard is not only completely useless, but actually counterproductive. This is not post-WW1 Germany, and we are not confronted by rioting Bolsheviks trying to take over the government. The war is an information war, and must be fought as such. ** *
I believe that military discipline is and has always been important to Nationalists and Nationalist movements. We are faced with physical threats everyday, and I'm not just talking about political violence. I'm talking about getting mugged when walking down the street at night and such.
So I believe physical training is and should be important to nationalists. Not just because we may have to defend our ourselves or our beliefs, but it also helps make us healthier and better people. Even many martial arts teachers say that their arts are not just for fighting, but first and foremost for personal development.
Frederich Jahn in the early 19th century established Gymnastics societies in order to promote both physical strength and loyalty to the volk. Athletic activity and societies have often, and probally will continue to be, the basis for many nationalist movements.
I don't agree with going out and attacking minorities, but I do believe Whites should be able to defend themselves when attacked. Physical training plus moral development must go hand in hand! Those who believe Birdbrain Bryant has the courage to expose himself are kidding themselves. This sack of sht would be crying and asking for mercy, but demand others display the blls he lacks.
2003-08-20 19:42 | User Profile
This is a fairly stupid article.
Of course it is; just look at the author.
I don't agree with going out and attacking minorities, but I do believe Whites should be able to defend themselves when attacked. Physical training plus moral development must go hand in hand!
Well said, perun.
So I think this guy has a rather simplistic view of these issues.
Yeah, a lot of words and a very little substance. :y
[SIZE=2]Well, I'm sure his pigeons enjoyed it. Or did they?
John "Birdman" Bryant, super-genius, goes to the coop to read his feathered friends his latest letter...
Bryant: Hey guys, want to hear my latest brilliant weekly letter?!?
Pigeons: coo! coo! coo! translation: oh god, not again!
Bryant: Great! I can always depend on you guys! You're my best friends! Heck, you're my only friends. Anyway, here it is: (clears throat) "Old vs New Guard Racists, by John 'Birdman' Bryant ... "
Pigeons: coo! coo! coo! translation: hey, did any of you guys ever see The Birds? good! let's get him!
(the pigeons swoop down on the Birdman, and start pecking him)
Bryant: Guys? What are you doing?!? Ouch! That hurts! Down! Stop! You can't do this to me...I'm a member of Mensa! My eyes! Aaaaaahhhh!!!!
(one of the pigeons flies on top of Bryant's head and poops on it)
Pigeon: coo! coo! coo! coo! translation: and that was for saying the [url=http://forum.originaldissent.com/index.php?showtopic=8004]moon landing was faked[/url], asshole.
Sorry, but I never could stand this pompous ass. Just because someone's a member of Mensa (wow) doesn't mean I have to listen to him.
related threads:
[url=http://forum.originaldissent.com/index.php?showtopic=1611]Letter to Birdbrain Bryant on Jews & American Wars, Birdbrain's Delusions or Willful Lying?[/url]
[url=http://forum.originaldissent.com/index.php?showtopic=8629]Comments On the Revolution[/url][/SIZE]
2003-08-20 19:49 | User Profile
Well Jay,
I'm not sure what your comments have to do with the quote you cited. I am no fan of Linder's writing style or his lack of substance and I never said anything to the contrary. As to VDARE they are not racists (meaning some that wishes to destroy/dominate other races) or racialists (meaning some that has a folkish outlook) but just a few writers seeking a decline in migration from the third world to the states. Such a change would be welcome of course but that's not racialism. Such a change would simply slow down the rate of your country being destroyed rather then address the fundimental problems that caused the current decline let alone reverse it.
2003-08-20 20:02 | User Profile
*Originally posted by triskelion@Aug 20 2003, 13:49 * ** As to VDARE they are not racists (meaning some that wishes to destroy/dominate other races) or racialists (meaning some that has a folkish outlook) but just a few writers seeking a decline in migration from the third world to the states.ÃÂ Such a change would be welcome of course but that's not racialism.ÃÂ Such a change would simply slowÃÂ down the rate of your country being destroyed rather then address the fundimental problems that caused the current decline let alone reverse it. **
I donôt know much about Birdman, but I agree with Jay in that I like this article. As to VDARE, I think you are not doing them justice. I am pretty sure they donôt want a decline in immigration, but a full stop and, if possible, a reversal, e.g. by positively rewarding immigrants who decide to move back home and negatively rewarding those who feel not so inclined.
Such a change would definitely solve at least one problem, and the most pressing and important one.
2003-08-20 20:17 | User Profile
I am pretty sure they donôt want a decline in immigration, but a full stop and, if possible, a reserval, e.g. by positively rewarding immigrants who decide to move back home and negatively rewarding those who feel not so inclined.
Why should they be "rewarded" with anything? :huh:
2003-08-20 20:57 | User Profile
Originally posted by Kurt@Aug 20 2003, 14:17 * ** > I am pretty sure they donôt want a decline in immigration, but a full stop and, if possible, a reserval, e.g. by positively rewarding immigrants who decide to move back home and negatively rewarding those who feel not so inclined.*
Why should they be "rewarded" with anything? :huh: **
Because that is the most frictionless way to reach the desired goal? :)
2003-08-20 22:35 | User Profile
** Birdman wrote:
the KKKers and the nazis, to whom I refer to as kluxers, hakenkreuzers and the 'gas-all-Jews-now crowd'. **
Why, yes indeed -- don'tcha jus' hate the 'gas-all-Jews-now crowd'? Such intolerant folks. Why can't they be more tolerant.... like the Chosen who are now ethnically-cleansing the Jewish state of Israel?
Ethnic cleansing by Nazis = bad. Ethnic cleansing by Jews = good. Simple, itz! :king:
2003-08-20 23:10 | User Profile
I can see the potential usefulness of this article in explaining to people that racialists are not all (or even mostly) blindly hateful, negro-lynching Hollywood skinheads, but it's not an ideological primer. It explains okay what modern racialism is not, but it doesn't do that great a job of explaining what it is.
2003-08-20 23:25 | User Profile
*Originally posted by Franco@Aug 20 2003, 16:35 * ** Ethnic cleansing by Nazis = bad. Ethnic cleansing by Jews = good. Simple, itz! :king: **
"Ethnic cleansing" is a weasel term. What is in question here is the method of what you call "Ethnic cleansing". Birdman seems to agree that the end doesnôt justify all means.
2003-08-20 23:42 | User Profile
Well not much seems to commend Vdare. They never even hinted at wanting to do anything but reduce third world migration. I see zero reason to think that they have any racial outlook beyond that very limited goal. Nothing said on Vdare would make one think that don't except the notion any biped is prevented from being an American and they certainly would never wish to imply that non Occidental "Americans are any less valued to your nation then your kinsmen. One also notes that Vdare has never even addressed the matter of jew control over your socializing institutions and to talk about immigration sans jewish power makes about as much sense as talking about engineering or physics without math or statistics.
Now we all agree that reducing the scope of the invasion of your country is a fine thing but lets get real and face the facts that Vdare has no other racial agenda beyond that and ending affirmative action. We all know that given the higher fertility rates of most alien populations and the fact that a third of those living in the states are not Americans a sizable reduction in the rate of your dispossession will buy Eurocentrics in the states some time to build up an activist cadre and nothing else. That's still a good goal but what does Vdare have in terms a means to advance that goal?
The bad news is that the answer to that question is not much. They are after a simple web site expressing moderate but sensible opposition to the current extent of the invasion of your country. They have not and will no address the root issues as stake. They have no strategy to advance their modest agenda and no ideas about implementing such a plan via activism if they did have a strategy. In short, I see a dead end. The alternative is once again, public activism and getting serious about ideology and the goals that flow from it.
2003-08-21 00:51 | User Profile
** Paleoleftist wrote:
What is in question here is the method of what you call "Ethnic cleansing". Birdman seems to agree that the end doesnôt justify all means. **
'Kay, but keep this in mind, little feller: What is your race worth??? Your race is not worth fighting HARD for? Give the Shiny People credit on one count: they play for keeps on racial issues. Why don't we? Hmmm? We are too concerned about cholesterol and taxes, I suppose.... :angry: Plus, Betty Bakes-A-Lot would be too turned off about cracking down on the people who are murdering the West to do anything besides vote about it...
2003-08-21 01:48 | User Profile
My view about Immigration into the US is that I'm not opposed to ALL immigration. I'm mostly against non-white immigration. Yet even with white immigration, I'm not in favor of an open borders policy. I agree there should be limitations on even white immigration to America.
As I said before, I find Birdman's assestment that this is an "information war" is nothing but :dung: ! There is still the physical side of the struggle, but I do agree with Birdman that this is not post-war Germany, so we don't need a carbon copy of the Freikorps.
There is nothing wrong with whites learning to protect themselves or even organizing small neighborhood watches to help protect the safety of their communities. Hell it happens all the time all over America and is part of the American tradition, just look at groups like the Guardian Angels. Even during the LA riots, the Korean neighborhoods formed their own neighborhood security force, complete with uniforms and such, to guard against rioters and looters. There's no reason why white neighborhoods can't do the same. There's even that [url=http://newstribune.com/stories/021303/wor_0213030935.asp]citizens' patrol group in Arizona that patrols the US-Mexican border[/url]. They place illegal aliens under citizens' arrest and hand them over to the Border Patrol. All these groups operate within the law yet seek the physical protection of our people and our heritage.
And I said physical training is important to our people as well for self-defense. I know many churches and other community organizations organize all sorts of athletic activities in order to help build a healthy community and build moral development in the community. I know that many Polish and Irish neighborhoods have athletic clubs that also promote ethnic pride. Along with that, members are often active in their communities and such. Yet rarely(if ever) do members of these clubs beat up minorities or cause trouble of that sort. So physical training of our people does not automatically lead to us beating up minorities. In fact its common sense in an age where more and more people are becoming obese and couch-potatoes. We want what's best for our people, we want our people to be healthy and strong as possible.
2003-08-21 02:11 | User Profile
*Originally posted by perun1201@Aug 20 2003, 19:48 * ** My view about Immigration into the US is that I'm not opposed to ALL immigration. I'm mostly against non-white immigration. Yet even with white immigration, I'm not in favor of an open borders policy. I agree there should be limitations on even white immigration to America. **
100% sensible.
As to Austria, which is a small country, I am, preferrably, against all immigration. Even a large number of European immigrants could totally change the character of the country, and this is indeed happening. :(
2003-08-21 02:15 | User Profile
*Originally posted by Paleoleftist@Aug 20 2003, 20:11 * ** 100% sensible.
As to Austria, which is a small country, I am, preferrably, against all immigration. Even a large number of European immigrants could totally change the character of the country, and this is indeed happening. :( **
I would agree with you there. How Austria handles its immigration problem is up to the Austrian people. Personally, since Austria is primarily a Germanic culture, I'd believe that immigrants of Austrian/Germanic decent would be allowed. But that's my opinion if I was Austrian(which I'm not).
2003-08-21 13:59 | User Profile
Well not much seems to commend Vdare. They never even hinted at wanting to do anything but reduce third world migration.
So? What's wrong with wanting this?
**I see zero reason to think that they have any racial outlook beyond that very limited goal. **
What do you suggest - machine guns and anthrax? Being serious here....what is it that you want them to write? Specifically.
**One also notes that Vdare has never even addressed the matter of jew control over your socializing institutions and to talk about immigration sans jewish power **
Yes they have, numerous times. Francis' article on the American "Likudniks" was obvious to me. Brimelow has written in Vdare (and Alien Nation) that Jewish groups push for immigration, and even delves into WHY in Alien Nation.
I don't agree with you at all regarding Vdare.
-Jay
2003-08-21 14:15 | User Profile
*Originally posted by jay@Aug 21 2003, 08:59 * ** I don't agree with you at all regarding Vdare. **
I don't either, jay. VDARE is very good at doing what they do.
2003-08-21 16:35 | User Profile
It's been said many times before, but....there are people in this world who share VDARE's sentiments. I am one of them. I do not share the VNN view of life. If people say VDARE is "hiding something", they're basically calling them liars or disengenuous.
And I don't think they are. I know there is a Jewish part in immigration. I know that there's a big business part, Catholic Church part, lawyer lobby, on and on. VDARE has talked about every part.
Must they focus exclusively on what VNN wants? I don't like VNN, so if Vdare does, I won't read it seriously.
_Jay
2003-08-21 19:48 | User Profile
Hello Jay,
I said:
** Well not much seems to commend Vdare. They never even hinted at wanting to do anything but reduce third world migration. **
You responded:
** So? What's wrong with wanting this? **
If you read the rest of my post you'll note why that's not sufficient as well as the fact that I said it's worth while goal. I would suggest reading what's said before posting a response.
I said:
** I see zero reason to think that they have any racial outlook beyond that very limited goal. **
You replied:
** What do you suggest - machine guns and anthrax? Being serious here....what is it that you want them to write? Specifically. **
Again, I would refer you to my previous statement about what is wrong with that position. After you have read what I have said I'll get back to you if it's still unclear to you.
You said:
** It's been said many times before, but....there are people in this world who share VDARE's sentiments. I am one of them. I do not share the VNN view of life. If people say VDARE is "hiding something", they're basically calling them liars or disengenuous. And I don't think they are. I know there is a Jewish part in immigration. I know that there's a big business part, Catholic Church part, lawyer lobby, on and on. VDARE has talked about every part. Must they focus exclusively on what VNN wants? I don't like VNN, so if Vdare does, I won't read it seriously. **
First of all, I never mentioned nothing about VNN in this thread and I have stated my concerns with Mr. Linder else where so please leave red herrings out of this discussion. I never said that Vdare was disengenuous so don't misrepresent what I have said but read my posts instead. The fact that Vdare is liked by some says nothing about the reasonableness of my critique of their position which you have yet to say anything about. If choose to actually consider what I said rather then falsely portray me a saying they should be like VNN I'll get back to you.
2003-08-21 20:13 | User Profile
**The fact that Vdare is liked by some says nothing about the reasonableness of my critique of their position which you have yet to say anything about. **
Yes I did. I [u]said you were wrong. [/u]When you wrote [color=red]"Vdare has never even addressed the matter of jew control over your socializing institutions and to talk about immigration sans jewish power"[/color].....I corrected you.
They do talk about Jewish issues, contrary to what you said. Read Alien Nation again, and do a keyword search on VDare's site.
As for your claim I'm not reading what you say and properly comprehending it....ok whatever.
-Jay
2003-08-21 23:07 | User Profile
Some time ago I talked with Peter Brimelow and mentioned that I had written a piece on how the participation in World War II by American Nisei had been distorted severely for political purposes. I sent Brimelow a copy.
Later I called and asked if he would be interested in running this piece. He replied that he could not do so. I asked why. He stated what I wrote was too harsh for his forum, and truth did not matter much. I thanked him for his honesty and asked if he could not confront old truths with some courage, how could he expect to lead others to face the consequences of uncontrolled immigration. He did not answer as much as aver his group had high principles.
Perhaps times have changed somewhat.
2003-08-22 02:16 | User Profile
I agree with many of the things he says.
I am generally amused by Birdman Bryant's website.
Hope he keeps it up. :th:
The main thrust of this article addresses the same issue that is constantly addressed at OD , with most of you agreeing with his position of a high minded racial tendency.
So far as it being mainly an information war: This is absolutely true. Our people are hypnotised by the occult powers of drama. :shock: Got to break those chains first.
2003-08-22 08:10 | User Profile
I enjoyed Bryant's piece. I can't understand all the contention over it, and Bryant in general. If Birdman festooned his website with swastikas and life runes, and ended some of his sentences with the word "it'z" while professing that all the world's Jews need to be gassed, would he then be more palatable to you Birdman dissenters?
The Birdman - No Jews, Just Birds! :D
2003-08-22 14:16 | User Profile
Edward, if I had an article that talked about the cannibalistic tendencies of uneducated blacks, would VDare run that? It could be true...and on a "rate" basis, probably is. But he isn't going to print everything, and just b/c he didn't doesn't mean he disagrees.
He does have a certain audience. I am one. Perhaps you would like to see him change his audience, but like anything in life, you run the danger of losing your "regulars"
-Jay
2003-08-22 19:32 | User Profile
I agree with Jay regarding VDare. While there are places they won't go, they are unapologetic about one very important fact: White Americans have interests. Establish that, and everything else follows, and conversely everything else depends on that fact. VDare is pitched just right for its purpose.
2003-08-22 19:38 | User Profile
*Originally posted by Leveller@Aug 22 2003, 12:32 * ** While there are places they won't go, they are unapologetic about one very important fact: White Americans have interests. Establish that, and everything else follows, and conversely everything else depends on that fact. **
Agreed. As long as this point is well-taken, the rest will follow. Forcefully, from the opposition to the people with that view. It's sufficient to persue interests contrary to zhid agenda for them to out themselves as your outright enemies. Has happened to many on Freak Republik, premiere anti-semite factory.
2003-08-22 20:18 | User Profile
First things first. Kurt, that was a great 'bit'; I laughed out loud reading it.
Secondly, Bryant (who says some things that make eminent sense and others that do not - I'm neither going to praise him uncritically, nor bash him unmercifully) hits a wall when he speaks of "my belief that the Jewish Question must be addressed squarely and thoroughly". And how, pray tell, do you plan to do that - seeing how you own no media and exert no dominating influence? Do you plan to establish your credentials by first flogging the extremists (Klan, American Nazi Party, skinheads) as proof of your abiding commitment to logic, reason and fairness? Fine; here is what will happen. Since you are already on record, time and again, as promoting such a thing as a "jewish question", all of your anti-racist invective will be as a tree falling in the forest with no one to see or hear it.
You will not be able to use your (logical) antipathy towards Hollywood Nazis as a chit towards any larger message because Abe and Mo and the rest of the gang already know who you are and will see to it you are discredited before you ever get access to a mass audience. There exists already copious 'literature' indicating that anti-Semitism is so sneaky-prevalent that one may indeed be an AS without ever having uttered - or even privately thought - an overtly Jew-hatin' sentiment. You, my friend, are an anti-Semite - like it or not. Lumped together with the very people you abhor.
Is that fair? Is that true? Well, since when has truth, fairness or reason ever ordered the course of human events? Would you equate Revilo Oliver with Matt Hale? No, neither would I, but strap yourself in for a shocker - the average person would.... if they had any idea who the two of them are. That's because, by and large, the average person has neither the time, the training nor the inclination to divine the truth from study of primary sources. We all rely, to some degree, on the Cliff Notes version.
Now guess who writes and edits the Cliff Notes.
I have more to add, but it's migraine season for me, and I'm already typing this through tears. I'll get around to Part 2 later.
2003-08-22 20:47 | User Profile
Leveller wrote:
**I agree with Jay regarding VDare. While there are places they won't go, they are unapologetic about one very important fact: White Americans have interests. Establish that, and everything else follows, and conversely everything else depends on that fact. VDare is pitched just right for its purpose. **
Me too. Vdare is one of a handful of sites I read every day (as well as OD).
I have corresponded with Peter Brimelow and find him an honest person with his heart in the right place.
Vdare is not a general-purpose WN and racialist vehicle and does not claim to be so. It makes the reasonable assumption that its regular readership is intelligent enough to couple cause and effect without having to constantly refer to the little men behind the curtain.
I don't believe that everyone has to slavishly adhere to a party line in every respect as long as we are all rowing in approximately the same direction.
No more Vdare bashing please.
2003-08-22 21:45 | User Profile
Dan, I too have conversed with Brimelow and I find him to think almost EXACTLY as I do on every single thing. I think that's amazing.
I found him via the Sam Francis homepage links. This was in 2000, and I asked Brimelow what we could do; we voted for Bush, you know. He said, "That wasn't very smart of you, he'll open the borders wider than Clinton. Could've voted for Buchanan when you ahd the chance"
Something like that. He was right, and now I'll never vote GOP.
[color=purple]WINTER: I have tried to do as you, but then I realize that there are 4,000 immigrants coming to the USA each day. We cannot convert that fast, that is why the powers are doing it so quickly.[/color]
-J
2003-08-23 15:24 | User Profile
*Originally posted by wintermute@Aug 22 2003, 16:10 * ** Doing immigration first softens everyone up on the 'other stuff'.
Wintermute **
Absolutely. I'd never know what Henry Ford wrote during the 1920's if I didn't read Sam Francis first. And so forth.
_Jay
2003-08-24 22:04 | User Profile
**Secondly, Bryant (who says some things that make eminent sense and others that do not - I'm neither going to praise him uncritically, nor bash him unmercifully) hits a wall when he speaks of "my belief that the Jewish Question must be addressed squarely and thoroughly". And how, pray tell, do you plan to do that - seeing how you own no media and exert no dominating influence? **
This is how:** NOW RANKED IN THE TOP 1/10 PERCENT OF ALL WEBSITES WORLDWIDE!! **
Philosophical differences aside, one has to admit that www.thebirdman.org is a pretty effective "anti-semite factory" if his site gets that much attention. If he appeals to the libertarian, atheist or mensa crowds, so much the better. The more people reached the better.
Birdman isn't a political movement or even an organization, just a guy with a personal website.
I'm not impressed with Vdare's watered down approach to the Jewish question but if it helps us a little it's better than nothing.
If I'm trying to enlighten someone who has a weak spot for the "chosen ones" I'll give them Vdare's site and if I'm trying to enlighten a mensa libertarian atheist I'll give 'em birdman.
2003-08-24 23:22 | User Profile
Anti Yuppie,
Thanks for the link. I had explored the site in it's infancy and wasn't excited. They really appear to have their stuff together, now. I'll subscribe to their paper copy so I can leave them in lobbies and waiting rooms etc when I'm through with them.
2003-08-24 23:24 | User Profile
The critical question to answer when evaluating whether "watered-down" venues help a lot, is to see how many or what fraction of their readers don't get stuck in there and contninue on the path to freeing themselves of ZOG/Hollywood/PC indoctrination. A considerable number of VDARE readers are probably still happily posting on Freak Republik. To get results, a considerable fraction of white population should become much more vocal and radical in saying "basta".
2003-08-25 00:56 | User Profile
Madrussian, Deprogramming is a delicate endeavor. Seeds of thought have to be planted first and allowed to grow, then the lemmings must be spoon fed while holding their hands. I've never had any luck administering shock therapy, have you?
Just getting them to visit any of these sites is damned hard.
2003-08-25 02:37 | User Profile
What little respect I had for Bryant I have now lost. He is as bad as Bill White in the slander department. He's going after Irving, apparently because Irving owes Bryant's wife an interest payment on a debt. He is calling Irving a homosexual pedophile. What is it with these guys? :thd: