← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · friedrich braun
Thread ID: 8858 | Posts: 4 | Started: 2003-08-08
2003-08-08 08:23 | User Profile
I found this exchange (on a different forum) between a Nordicist and Southern Europeans fascinating.
Razib [one of the South Asian bloggers at "Gene Expression"]:... 2003-06-18
the reason i said that "white" brown guys was stupid is that he's almost surely a mongrel and that crap about "my ancestors in the 8th century" is a load of bullshit. i don't doubt he has white skin and could pass for european, though probably not nordic or anything, my own grandmother has the nickname "pink grandma." does that mean she's white? phenotypically she could have passed, but her family is brown, many of her antecedants are brown, and most of her descendents are brown. just as in a northern european population you have blondes, redheads and brunettes in any given population most indian populations have a wide range. that doesn't mean the white looking ones are really any whiter by ancestry than the non-white ones, because the genes could have reassorted in a whole host of ways.
like rienzi and the legion europa crowd most white indians, persians, etc. to me seem to be suffused by an inferiority complex. after all, it is the nordics who toy with the idea of excluding them, never vice versa, there is never a question that blonde europeans are part of their "in-group." the genetic evidence about the delineatino of the "in-group" of "Europeans" is a lot more confused than rienzi et al. like to admit, but then if they appeal to culture they start going down a slippery slope away from racialism.
as for mucculough and the nordicists, let me be frank, they really overestimate the % of nordics by phenotype. german race scientists estimated that 10% of germans were pure nordics, most of the rest being non-nordics or bastardized. mcculough basically seems to assert that all northwest europeans are nordics, which i don't buy. i speak as a lover of nordic women and my standards on this point are high, higher it seems than the "nordicists." the problem with nordicists is that most "nordics" have immediate "non-nordic" family members. this is just like the situation with the white brown guy, he might be white, his family might be mostly white, but he has close brown-skinned kin for sure. ancestrly arnold schwarzanager & dolph lundgren might come from common stock, but physically they are very different. mccuollough's position is also going to be undermined by cosmetic advances which will make the nordic look available to non-nordics....
as for the "big-tent" folks, they have a good strategy, because there are a lot of whitish looking non-European losers who want to be associated with the master race. by losers i don't mean that most whitish looking non-Europeans are losers, but if they are winners I suspect that have more interesting things to spend their time pondering than the fact that they have a relationship physically or ancestrally to the European race and they should be members of a clan.
...
1) 10% germans being "pure aryan" comes from a old paper on nordicism linked to on dienekes' blog. this jives with the fact that i've see that ONLY in southern sweden do more than 50% of the people have the combination of blonde hair AND blue eyes.
2) rienzi is a "biological scientist" working under a psuedonym. legion europa and his cohort seem disproportionately southron. so he would know that two recent reports indicate via the y-chromosomal lineage that 20% to 50% of "europeans" are the descendents of "middle eastern farmers." 20% "neolithic" is the low end-but this is not equally scattered, the 20% is concentrated in SE europe and along the coast and some valleys on the mediterranean. this would substract a non-trival fraction of southern europeans, especially greeks, from the "european" in-group, and but them biologically with middle easterners. of course, culture matters, but bioculture is BOTH. the 50% value elimates even more europeans from the bioculture, especially southerners of course. so rienzi's genetic evidence is pretty contentious, and if he's a biological scientist, i'm sure he knows it and it bugs him.
3) while the nordicists exclude the southrons, none of them wish to exclude the nordicists, showing to me who is really top-dog here. rienzi et al. would never deny that northern europeans are true europeans and would probably dispute the figures for neolithic farmers. that's because being european to them is being based on a nordic standard. they don't want to come out as a mongrel race. the irony being that "the mongrel race" of southern europe CREATED THE CONCEPT OF EUROPE!
4) again, as i said, i think mccollough's classification of the "nordish" % is crock. "nordic beauty" is not present in much of the population he asserts is nordic. additionally, though i'm not a coon hater, i don't buy his specific races, they're all a bunch of theory based on bones & stones using arbitrary metrics.
5) the paleolithic population of europe itself is cleaved into clades-one in the west and another in the north/east.
btw, many brown people are pretty loserish, asserting that "we are just white people who have been darkened by the sun over the ages...." this is probably mostly crap, but the statement itself is reflective of the legion europa crowd, the standard is europeans (while for legion europa it is northern europeans). europeans are the most accomplished race on the planet now and everyone wants to associate with them. this isn't new. the romans wanted to be associated with the House of Priam, the Windsors made up a Davidic lineage for their line, etc. etc.
Doric Greek ... 2003-06-25 razib states so he [Rienzi] would know that two recent reports indicate via the y-chromosomal lineage that 20% to 50% of "europeans" are the descendents of "middle eastern farmers." 20% "neolithic" is the low end-but this is not equally scattered, the 20% is concentrated in SE europe and along the coast and some valleys on the mediterranean. this would substract a non-trival fraction of southern europeans, especially greeks, from the "european" in-group, and but them biologically with middle easterners. Problem with this statement --Your associating neolithic with non european.Since neolithic blood lines in europe go back 8000-10,000 yrs one can pretty much state that neolithic elements from the middle east are native to europe. Lets examine your logic more carefully .Basques are the most paleolithic (incidendently they to originially came from the middle east but at an earlier period-Read Brain Skykes) and they speak a NON indoeuropean language.So are you saying they are the most European?Germans have more neolithic ancestry then Basques so therefore according to your logic they are less european.Also Skykes had Greeks in the Mediteranean East Europid categoery with Albanians.This makes sense since both groups are native to the Balkans. If 20 to 50% of europe is neolithic then how can you say neolithic equals non european? Y chromosomes represent only a small portion of the genetic code.Cavalli-Sforza's table of total genetic distance shows that Brits are closer to north africans then Greeks so that suggest Brits are less European since they cluster closer to Berbers? Greeks cluster closest in study to Italians austrians and Hungarians and outside of Europe -Iranians.Iranians cluster to closer to europe the other middle eastern groups and of course they speak a INDOEUROPEAN tounge. Also the term Middle Easterners is not appropriate since the middle east includes a variety of peoples not just semites.The genetic distence between Assyrian Christians and Yemites is 1000 2 x that of the most outlying group in europe from mean -THE LAPPS Since Europeans are composed of both Paleolithic and Neolithic ancestors one group having more neolithic genes does not make them less european.
white racialist ... 2003-06-25 razib: 'as for mucculough and the nordicists, let me be frank, they really overestimate the % of nordics by phenotype. german race scientists estimated that 10% of germans were pure nordics, most of the rest being non-nordics or bastardized. mcculough basically seems to assert that all northwest europeans are nordics, which i don't buy. i speak as a lover of nordic women and my standards on this point are high, higher it seems than the "nordicists."'
Leaving aside your creepy obsession with "Nordic women" (or rather, blonde women; most of the women you think are "Nordic" probably aren't, starting with your "ex-g/f of 87.25% prussian ancestry"), you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. Incidentally, Richard McCulloch estimates that Nordics make up 10% of the German population. Nordish is not synonymous with Nordic. The indigenous people of northern Europe are by definition Nordish. '1) 10% germans being "pure aryan" comes from a old paper on nordicism linked to on dienekes' blog. this jives with the fact that i've see that ONLY in southern sweden do more than 50% of the people have the combination of blonde hair AND blue eyes.' Again, you show that you are ignorant. Having blond hair and blue eyes does not automatically make one Nordic. Likewise, not having blond hair and blue eyes does not exclude one from being of Nordic racial type. The N-S cline in hair and eye pigmentation in Europe probably dates to the Paleolithic. Classical Nordics didn't enter Scandinavia until much later. The original central European Nordics probably had light eyes and medium hair (ranging from blond to dark brown). 'like rienzi and the legion europa crowd most white indians, persians, etc. to me seem to be suffused by an inferiority complex. after all, it is the nordics who toy with the idea of excluding them, never vice versa, there is never a question that blonde europeans are part of their "in-group."' This is one of the few good points you make in this thread. While Rienzi's stuff is generally well-written and superfically reasonable, if you examine it at all, it's full of contradictions. Rienzi clearly wants to be a part of "Nordish America". One particularly bizarre example can be seen here: [url=http://www.legioneuropa.org/Comment/euroamat.htm]http://www.legioneuropa.org/Comment/euroamat.htm[/url] 'One complaint made by Nordicists concerning the possibilities of pan-European cooperation is their perception of a mating imbalance between Northern European Americans (NEAs) and Southern European Americans (SEAs), with more SEA men marrying NEA women than vice versa. This would cause a shortage of available women for NEA men, with resultant inter-ethnic problems, and of course a decreased birth rate among unmixed NEA types (1).' First, the entire premise of this article is odd. ANY intermixing between "NEA" and "SEA" will cause 'a decreased birth rate among unmixed NEA types'. The fact that he brings up a "mating imbalance" (which no doubt exists, due to the fact that "NEA" men do not tend to seek out "SEA" women, while "SEA" men, like blacks and Pakis, do seek out white women) that is supposedly a major concern among "Nordicists". He does not cite any work by "Nordicists" that raises this issue, and the entire exercise strikes one as a bizarre attempt by an insecure "SEA man" to reinforce his masculinity. But, to get to my main point, Rienzi says: 'The imbalance decreased the number of NEA females available to NEA males, and obviously decreased NEA-NEA fertility during the important "baby boomer period." To the "purists" among the Nordicists, this mating (and the reverse as well of course) decreased the numbers of unmixed NEAs and introduced other genes and gene frequencies into the NEA population (5). But it must be noted that, from an IA perspective, this has caused serious problems as well. Note the author's quote above: the creation of unmixed IA children in America has been "virtually eliminated." What passes for "IA-America" today is a minority of "purebred" IAs and a larger mass of part-IA "Euro-mix hybrids." This decrease in Italian genes, gene frequencies, and gene combinations has been a large diminution of the "ethnic genetic interests" of IAs.' However, in the next paragraph, he goes on to say 'I - and Legion Europa as a whole - have nothing against intra-EuroAmerican mating whatsoever - within reason.' So, the 'diminution of the "ethnic genetic interests" of IAs' through interbreeding with "NEAs" is clearly not a problem for Rienzi. There is also a telling quote from this article: [url=http://theoccidentalquarterly.com/vol3no1/mxr-genetic.html]http://theoccidentalquarterly.com/vol3no1/...xr-genetic.html[/url] 'In a hypothetical multiethnic European state (e.g., a Euro-American state), one may need to balance issues of genetic similarity and eugenic quality in maximizing genetic fitness in mating choice.' So, basically, Rienzi, like all too many self-hating swarthy men, dreams of marrying a "Nordic" woman. Or at least he wants to leave the possibility open for himself.
Cicero ... 2003-06-25White Racialist whines, "So, basically, Rienzi, like all too many self-hating swarthy men, dreams of marrying a 'Nordic' woman. Or at least he wants to leave the possibility open for himself." Or more likely, you are unable to refute the arguments of those you disagree with, so you have to resort to psychoanalytic speculations. I imagine that in some cases, Nordic women are interested in Mediterranean men (who are relatively swarthy, in some cases not at all) because of a distaste for men who are too light and freckly (no offense is intended to such persons). Some women I have encountered have told me of their preference for dark-haired men. In any case, Rienzi is not here to defend himself so there is little point to taking childish potshots at him on this forum. While I respect Germans, Scandinavians and other Nordics who want to preserve their heritage, it seems "White Racialist" comes across as a bit whiney and puerile.
Cicero ... 2003-06-25A funny quote (footnote) from Rienzi: "10. Like the preference it seems that NEA (Northern European-American) men have for (North)EastAsian women, their 'targeting' of such women, and the pronounced mating imbalance produced...and the hostility produced as well. And of course Negro males prefer White women, compared to the reverse." He notes the disproportionate number of Anglo-American men hounding Asian-American females. Maybe Italian-American men wouldn't be offered so much Anglo female "goods" if their men would just stick to their own women rather than exercizing an Asian sexual fetish. Some White (read: NEA) men have a perception of Asian females as more feminine and passive than White females. Perhaps the NEA men hounding these females have an inferiority complex, and can't deal with "strong" (i.e. NEA) females. :D
white racialist ... 2003-06-25 Or more likely, you are unable to refute the arguments of those you disagree with, so you have to resort to psychoanalytic speculations. The contradictions are plain for all to see, chimpero. I may, in the future, create a site pointing out the many problems in Rienzi's writings; that will be at my leisure, not at the behest of a mongrel southern european with a massive inferiority complex.
white racialist ... 2003-06-25"10. Like the preference it seems that NEA (Northern European-American) men have for (North)EastAsian women, their 'targeting' of such women, and the pronounced mating imbalance produced...and the hostility produced as well. And of course Negro males prefer White women, compared to the reverse." This is simply an attack against Nordish Americans by one of their racial enemies. The vast majority of "NEA" men, of course, have no preference for Asian females. Incidentally, in my (admittedly anectdotal experience), southern European "Americans" of both sexes are more likely to date/mate outside their race than real (i.e., Nordish) Americans.
Cicero ... 2003-06-25 White Racialist writes: "The contradictions are plain for all to see, chimpero. I may, in the future, create a site pointing out the many problems in Rienzi's writings; that will be at my leisure, not at the behest of a mongrel southern european with a massive inferiority complex." You are obviously ignorant of modern genetics. Every group has a level of admixture with other groups -- some, of course, more than others. Thus your use of "mongrel" would look stupid to academics who study genetics. But I sorta see where you are coming from: "we are tainted, but they more than us." Did you know that 100 writers of 54 countries voted Cervantes' "Don Quixote" as the best work of fiction of all time? Hey, why hasn't Norway, Sweden, or Finland produced an artist comparable to Velazquez? Why is Michelangelo, and not a Scandinavian, considered the greatest artist of all time by many? Why did it take an ITALIAN mathematician (Fermi) to do many of the most complex calculations for the Manhattan Project? Why do Jewish scientists take up all of the Nobel Prizes? Why did America recruit so many Jews for the Project and few or no Anglos? Is there a "conspiracy" to put the Anglo down? :( Why does Richard Flynn report Italians have a higher IQ than Brits? (102 vs. 100) My guess is, like other "Nordic nationalists," you perceive Mediterranean men to be more masculine and thus you feel threatened by them in some way. And it must eat you up that many Meds earn more money than your fellow Anglos in the U.S., as statistics show. By the way, anecdotal stories are useless, as you should know.
Cicero ... 2003-06-25 White Racialist gave a funny reaction to the Rienzi quote on the tendency of Northern European-American men to seek/mate with Asian females. According to his logic, Med men who marry Nordic women have an inferiority complex, but Nordic men who marry Asian females (often due to a sexual fetish) are an exaggeration or a subject to brush aside. However, this is a phenomenon reported by Steve Sailer. While most White men (usually NEA) do not seek out Asian females, it is notable that a very large number do, especially where Whites and Asians interact. This is how White Racialist reacted to the quote: "This is simply an attack against Nordish Americans by one of their racial enemies. The vast majority of 'NEA' men, of course, have no preference for Asian females." While your last statement may be true, the phenomenon of NEA men chasing Asian women is a very large one that DOES have an impact on NEA demographics, as Sailer has noted in his essays on ethnic intermarriage. So if you are concerned about Southern European men dating/marrying Nordic women, perhaps you should deal with Nordic men leaving their women to chase Asian skirts FIRST.
friedrich braun ... 2003-06-26 "Why does Richard Flynn report Italians have a higher IQ than Brits? (102 vs. 100)" I'm curious to know if by "Brit" you mean people of mostly Anglo-Saxon and Celtic stock, or just anyone holding a British passport? "My guess is, like other "Nordic nationalists," you perceive Mediterranean men to be more masculine and thus you feel threatened by them in some way." Really? This sounds like patent psychobabble. The little, stocky, and swarthy Meds, more masculine than Brits, for example, hmmm....In that case Arabs must be even more masculine than Meds. What's your criteria for evaluating a people's degree of "masculinity"?
Cicero ... 2003-06-26 Cicero wrote: "Why does Richard Flynn report Italians have a higher IQ than Brits? (102 vs. 100)" Mr. Braun asked: "I'm curious to know if by 'Brit' you mean people of mostly Anglo-Saxon and Celtic stock, or just anyone holding a British passport?" I believe Mr. Flynn used just Whites for that sample. They could have been from various "stock," but it is noteworthy that, according to him (in "Wealth of Nations"), Italy has a higher IQ than the vast majority of northern European countries. Cicero wrote: "My guess is, like other 'Nordic nationalists,' you perceive Mediterranean men to be more masculine and thus you feel threatened by them in some way." Mr. Braun wrote: "Really? This sounds like patent psychobabble. The little, stocky, and swarthy Meds, more masculine than Brits, for example, hmmm....In that case Arabs must be even more masculine than Meds. What's your criteria for evaluating a people's degree of 'masculinity?'" You might be right that this is a hasty generalization. It is just my experience from my past associations with persons like White Racialist. I do introduce some tongue-in-cheek responses now and then, however. One bad apple doesn't always represent the whole barrel. :D
Cicero ... 2003-06-26Here is an article by Steve Sailer on Richard Lynn's book "IQ and the Wealth of Nations." Professor Lynn teaches at the University of Ulster and the book was co-authored with Tatu Vanhanen. [url=http://www.vdare.com/sailer/wealth_of_nations.htm]http://www.vdare.com/sailer/wealth_of_nations.htm[/url] Here Italy is compared to the UK -- Country - IQ - GDP (Purchasing power parity) UK - 100 - 50% - $20,336 Italy - 102 - 55% - $20,585
white racialist ... 2003-06-26 "You are obviously ignorant of modern genetics. Every group has a level of admixture with other groups -- some, of course, more than others." Southern Italians are mongrels. Period. I do not consider someone who is genetically half Middle Eastern to be of the same race as myself. "Did you know that 100 writers of 54 countries voted Cervantes' "Don Quixote" as the best work of fiction of all time? Hey, why hasn't Norway, Sweden, or Finland produced an artist comparable to Velazquez? Why is Michelangelo, and not a Scandinavian, considered the greatest artist of all time by many? Why did it take an ITALIAN mathematician (Fermi) to do many of the most complex calculations for the Manhattan Project?" Do not try to associate yourself with those southern Europeans who are genetically European, mongrel. Genetically, northern Italians and Spaniards are basically Central European, while southern Italians are half Middle Eastern. "Why do Jewish scientists take up all of the Nobel Prizes?" You're getting closer to your real heritage. Unfortunately for you, however, Ashkenazi Jews are a small, heavily selected group. Though you may share some neutral genes with them from thousands of years back, via your Arab ancestry, sicilians have none of the Jews' heightened intelligence. "Why does Richard Flynn report Italians have a higher IQ than Brits? (102 vs. 100)" "Italian" is not a valid racial grouping. If you want to impress me, let's see some IQ scores for Sicilians. "the tendency of Northern European-American men to seek/mate with Asian females" You're quite stupid, aren't you? Cite evidence or shut your chimp mouth. The overwhelming majority of white Americans (~95%) marry other whites. Of the small minority who do not, I've seen no data on the ethnic origin of the white partner. "While your last statement may be true, the phenomenon of NEA men chasing Asian women is a very large" One more time, monkey. If you want to talk to me in the future, you will back up your assertions with facts. There is, of course, no statistical data on marriages between "NEA" men and Asian women vs. "SEA" men and Asian women. When you or Rienzi make statements like this, you simply prove yourselves stupid and hostile to Americans. You are, of course, an irrelevant sicilian teenager. Rienzi, on the other hand, ridiculously claims to be concerned with the interests of "NEAs". This is simply one example of why that claim is false. "So if you are concerned about Southern European men dating/marrying Nordic women, perhaps you should deal with Nordic men leaving their women to chase Asian skirts FIRST." The "FIRST" thing we should do is deport all non-Americans, whether of southern European or Asian origin, to their native countries. "Here Italy is compared to the UK -- Country - IQ - GDP (Purchasing power parity) UK - 100 - 50% - $20,336 Italy - 102 - 55% - $20,585" You do realize that southern Italy is the poorest region in the EU?
2003-08-08 09:49 | User Profile
I wonder how Europe will ever survive with squabbling like this. We're doomed... :(
2003-08-08 16:40 | User Profile
Polako,
You should not concern yourself with this sort of thing. I have been very active racial nationalism since the early '80s and have got a decent grasp of pretty much all aspects of nationalist and populist politics in the Nordic nations and I can tell you that no one Iââ¬â¢ve ever dealt with thinks that non Nordics are somehow not European. Certainly within some portions of Europa are populations that one can debate if they are still Occidental but I think that such things are emphasized far beyond their significance. Basically, the campaign to claim that Southern, Central, Eastern Europa, Finland, the Baltics and all Slavic countries are mongrelized is something that no one outside of a few wacky Americans on the fringes of that countryââ¬â¢s rather pathetic racial scene believes. Stop concerning yourself with marginal American elements as no one here takes them seriously
2003-08-08 20:00 | User Profile
More on the passionate debate raging between Nordishists and Pan-Europeans.
[url=http://legioneuropa.org/Debate/PENDebate.htm]http://legioneuropa.org/Debate/PENDebate.htm[/url]