← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · Faust
Thread ID: 8575 | Posts: 14 | Started: 2003-07-29
2003-07-29 23:35 | User Profile
Society of St. Pius X
**Roman Catholic Church Schism Ends Associated Press/January 19, 2002
Sao Paulo, Brazil -- The Roman Catholic Church on Friday ended a schism that had divided it for some three decades, as followers of the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre were welcomed back into the fold.
Vatican representative Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos declared the dispute officially over during an evening ceremony in Campos, 430 miles northeast of Sao Paulo.
Followers of the ultraconservative Lefebvre, known as "traditionalists,'' rejected the liberalizing reforms of the 1962-65 second Vatican Council. These reforms include allowing priests to face the congregation and to celebrate Mass in languages other than Latin. They also rejected the Vatican's reaching out to other faiths.
In 1975, Pope Paul VI officially suppressed Lefebvre's Society of St. Pius X order. The maverick bishop was excommunicated in 1988 after having ordained four bishops in defiance of Rome. He died in 1991.
The cardinal represented Pope John Paul II at the service in Campos' Sao Salvador Cathedral.
"We are carrying out Christ's mandate to love one another,'' he said of the ceremony to lift Lefebvre's excommunication and close the historic rift.
Several other high-ranking church leaders participated in the ceremony including Archbishop Alfio Rapisarda, the papal ambassador to Brazil, and Campos Bishop Roberto Guimaraes.
Nationwide, there are 28,000 traditionalists, according to Fides, the Vatican's news service.
[url=http://www.rickross.com/reference/stpius/stpius3.html]http://www.rickross.com/reference/stpius/stpius3.html[/url]**
Anti-cult site on Society of St. Pius X [url=http://www.rickross.com/groups/stpius.html]http://www.rickross.com/groups/stpius.html[/url]
Official Canadian Website for St. Pius X [url=http://www.sspx.ca/]http://www.sspx.ca/[/url]
2003-07-30 00:22 | User Profile
Faust,
Does this affect all Catholics in SSPX--particularly the ones in the US--or just the ones in Brazil?
2003-07-30 01:34 | User Profile
Centinel,
Sorry about that. I should have the other articles too. It looks like, it was just the ones in Brazil that went into full union with Rome. The leadership of the Society of St. Pius X is in meeting with Rome on this topic. Some of statements of the group can get one rather mixed up.
Holy See Relaunches Reconciliation Bid with St. Pius X Fraternity [url=http://www.rickross.com/reference/stpius/stpius5.html]http://www.rickross.com/reference/stpius/stpius5.html[/url]
Dialogue with Lefebvre Followers at a Standstill [url=http://www.rickross.com/reference/stpius/stpius4.html]http://www.rickross.com/reference/stpius/stpius4.html[/url]
The Society of St. Pius X [url=http://www.rickross.com/reference/stpius/stpius2.html]http://www.rickross.com/reference/stpius/stpius2.html[/url]
Kopp and Rebel Sect [url=http://www.rickross.com/reference/stpius/stpius1.html]http://www.rickross.com/reference/stpius/stpius1.html[/url]
**HIS HOLINESS POPE JOHN PAUL II
The Society of Saint Pius X professes filial devotion and loyalty to Pope John Paul II, the Successor of Saint Peter and the Vicar of Christ. The priests of the Society pray for His Holiness and the local Ordinary at every Mass they celebrate.
Society of Saint Pius X-USA [url=http://www.sspx.org/]http://www.sspx.org/[/url]
... With innumerable publications and an apostolate that extends to all kinds of priestly activities, the Society of Saint Pius X continues the very work for which it had been created, recognized and mandated by Rome. And faithful to this priestly mission with the grace of God we shall continue.
[url=http://www.sspx.org/SSPX_FAQs/appendix_iii_history_6.htm]http://www.sspx.org/SSPX_FAQs/appendix_iii...i_history_6.htm[/url]**
2003-07-30 01:36 | User Profile
The Society of St. Pius V is more hardline
**The Society of St. Pius V is an organization of traditional Catholic priests dedicated to the preservation of the Traditional Latin Mass. The priests of the Society do not offer the Novus Ordo Missae. The priests offer the Traditional Latin Mass exclusively and administer the traditional sacraments; the common practice in the West before the Vatican II Council.
[url=http://www.sspv.net/]http://www.sspv.net/[/url]**
2003-07-30 02:14 | User Profile
Well there's also [url=http://www.truecatholic.org]TrueCatholic.org[/url] they flat out refuse to believe that the post-Vatican II church is part of the true Catholic Church. They consider John Paul II a heretic!
**It is likely that most of you think that the ââ¬ÅCatholic Churchââ¬Â now centered in Rome, in the Vatican, is the Catholic Church. Since 1958 (after the death of Pope Pius XII on October 9, 1958), the holders of offices there, have usurped the name of the Catholic Church from which they of their own free will departed. They left the faith, and therefore they left the Church that was founded by Christ on the apostles with Peter as its head. Their defection from the faith is something we must prove and that is the burden of much of the literature that you will find in this website.à**
They list the [url=http://www.truecatholic.org/heresiesjp2.htm]101 Heresies of John Paul II[/url].
In fact they've even elected their own Pope, [url=http://www.truecatholic.org/pope/]Pope Pius XIII[/url]. Pius XIII writings are filled with harsh condemnation of the liberalization of the Church.
Here's an interesting article about Pope Pius XIII's views on the United Nations and the national question
[url=http://www.truecatholic.org/pope/condemnationsbypius13.htm#unitednations]John XIII Condemnation of the United Nations [/url].
He writes
** The United Nations Organization (UNO) with its center in New York, which was founded largely by Communist elitists in 1948, is functioning in an unnatural way, and thus it is illicit.ÃÂ It has no right to exist in the manner in which it functions.ÃÂ The UNO is slowly gobbling up nation after nation, leaving their citizens without their sovereignty as individual nations.**
On the national question itself, Pius XIII writes
** No matter how well such a universal state is composed it can never provide proper care for the citizens of the world as natural law requires.ÃÂ **There must be independent and sovereign states. ** Those states must be composed by the rules of natural law.ÃÂ They have ideals and a purpose all their own.ÃÂ They have, so to say, a personality which makes the citizens different in each state.ÃÂ The esprit de corps of the Japanese differs from that of the Chinese.ÃÂ The esprit de corps of the Germans differ from that of the Italians.ÃÂ It is a common and necessary way people want to conduct themselves. **
And some here try to say that the Christian faith is anti-nationalistic! :D
There's more of his writings [url=http://www.truecatholic.org/pope/menu-writings.htm]here[/url]
I don't know about you guys, but I'm beginning to think this altnerative Pope should be sitting in the Vatican as opposed to that heretic John Paul II
[img]http://www.truecatholic.org/pix/p13-white1.jpg[/img]
:th: Long Live Pope Pius XIII!! :th:
2003-07-30 02:32 | User Profile
BTW, how many divisions has this Pope?
Oh yes the question Stalin posed to the Pope. Well I'll reply the same way the Pope replied to Stalin, his divisions are in heaven!
Whether or not this man will make any real spiritual impact or not, I don't know. But it seems from his writings that he has a better grasp of Catholic doctrine and doesn't give in to the Liberal BS. When did John Paul II flat out say that the UNO is a Marxist inspired organization? I sure haven't heard him say that, he seems to give support to the UNO. Pius XIII on the other hand seems to be more on the anti-globalist/pro-nationalist side.
Under John Paul II's heresies they list number 11 as
**
John Paul II: The New World Order is holy unity. PA:39, 1987
Truth of Divine and Catholic Faith: The New World Order is evil. Pius XI, MA:1-2**
**John Paul II: The New World Order is needed for the world.ÃÂ PP:809, 09/02/1981
True Catholic: The New World Order is a reign of terror.ÃÂ Benedict XV, TBR:35 **
By the way, Franco will definetly love Heresies numbers 13, 23, 55, & 69 for they deal with the Jews! :lol:
[url=http://www.truecatholic.org/heresiesjp2.htm]101 Heresies of John Paul II[/url]
2003-07-30 03:41 | User Profile
** perun wrote:
By the way, Franco will definetly love Heresies numbers 13, 23, 55, & 69 for they deal with the Jews! **
Oh, yeah. I notice that as we move into the future, X-tian leaders wuv the Jews more an' more. They wuv them so! :angry:
2003-07-30 06:06 | User Profile
**Oh, yeah. I notice that as we move into the future, X-tian leaders wuv the Jews more an' more. They wuv them so! **
What the F**k are you talking about Franco? When did this gradual love affair begin? It began in the late 1950's, but before that time the Church was no at all soft on the Jew question. A good example are the writings of the French jesuit [url=http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbe_Augustin_Barruel]Abbe Barruel[/url]. In his writings, he talked about how the Jew planned not only the overthrow of Christianity, but Western civilization along with it. Barruel's theories would eventuall influence major anti-semitic theories of the 19th century and beyond. In fact I believe Barruel was among the first to notice the Jewish intentions for world domination. Your website itself talks about [url=http://www.ssa.gov/history/cough.html]Fr. Charles Coughlin[/url], a Catholic priest who in the 1930's spoke about the Jew.
So I don't know where you got this gradual warming up to the Jews BS from Franco, but its inaccurate. It came suddenly in the late '50's and 60's when the Church was infiltraded and taken over by the Liberals. Learn your history!
2003-07-30 11:53 | User Profile
I don't understand how this whole thread began. It is obvious that the article you cited was written a year and a half ago.
It pertains only to a group in Campos, Brazil, who have now organized as the Society of St. John Vianney. The Society of St. Pius X continues its heroic resistance to the catastrophic pontificates since 1958.
The Society of St. Pius V splintered shortly after it formed. They are either sede-vacantist, crypto-sede-vacantist, or otherwise decline to acknowledge that the Chair of Peter is occupied.
Former Pius V priest Father Donald Sandborn (SV) can be found at Catholicrestoration.org or traditionalmass.org.
The agony of the Church continues. Pray for a sane Pope.
2003-07-30 16:56 | User Profile
Buster,
The mainstream press does not cover this topic very much. I misunderstood the first article "Roman Catholic Church Schism Ends" I did more reseach after Centinel asked about the post and found it was just the ones in Brazil. This is still a bad thing for The Society of St. Pius X.
I do feel the "traditionalists'' have problem when they claim "Society of Saint Pius X continues the very work for which it had been created, recognized and mandated by Rome." and "The Society of Saint Pius X professes filial devotion and loyalty to Pope John Paul II, the Successor of Saint Peter and the Vicar of Christ. " but attack everything the Pope does.
John Paul II would a heretic but the standard of The Society of Saint Pius X, yet they can they are "mandated by Rome." and "loyalty to Pope John Paul II"
I think the The Society of St. Pius V is more logical in it's thinking.
2003-07-30 19:32 | User Profile
I don't begrudge your support of the SSPV, but I stand by what I said about them, and I don't think you disputed any of my comments.
I remember fondly their old TV show, "What Catholics Believe," which had a wonderful format. I was even thinking of starting a Julius Smetona fan club. Sadly the program perished for lack of funds.
I have also been on retreat with Father Sanborn, who is now independent, I guess. I think he has also been consecrated a bishop, as have Fathers Kelly and Dolan. What a mess.
The position of the SSPX is awkward because it always is when one challenges legitimate authority, be it your boss, your parent, your government, etc. But you can reject authority in certain instances without rejecting it outright. I think that is a minor problem compared to saying the See of Peter has been vacant since at least 1978. What then of the bishops the Pope has named, and the priests they have named, etc.?
As for Campos, yes it hurt, and I don't know how many of the faithful there remain in support of the SSPX. I would guess more than a few.
2003-08-04 02:17 | User Profile
I am a traditional Catholic and I assist at Mass at a SSPX church. As far as I know, there has been no such "rapproachment" between the Society and the Church. There have been several attempts by the Church and the Society to come to terms, but none have been successful.
Also, as a point of clarification, traditionalist Catholics (ex., SSPX) fully acknowledge that the Pope is The Pope. Sedevacantists (ex., SSPV) believe that the Chair of St. Peter is vacant (L. or It. sede "seat," vacante "vacant").
It is a fine line to walk, but not too terribly difficult if one knows one's religion. Essentially, the Pope has absolute authority to do as he pleases SO LONG AS it is in accordance with Scripture AND Tradition. If he deviates in any way from either, his acts are null and void.
Problem is, most individual Catholics dont understand this fundamental point. Another problem is that the Pope carries a lot of clout and, even if he is dead wrong, he still comes across as being "right" because he is The Pope.
In any case, I will continue to assist at the traditional Latin Mass and I will continue to pray for the conversion of our Pope, John Paul II, to Catholicism.
Dominus vobiscum,
Baltimore
2003-08-04 03:59 | User Profile
Well I'm traditionalist Catholic too as far as being a member of the [url=http://www.byzcath.org/Faith-and-Worship/Who-Are-Byzantine-Catholics.htm]Byzantine Rite[/url] is concerned. I do hope that the Roman rite returns to its traditions.
However, I would like to make something clear, something that maybe unknown or lost to our Roman rite brothers and sisters. Many Eastern Catholics(including Byzantine rite) do not view Vatican II as entirely negative but in many ways positive. This is primarily because before Vatican II, Byzantine(and other Eastern Catholics) were largely unknown to most Catholics except those in high places. Also Eastern Rite Catholics were often forced to adopt Roman rite rituals and practices at the expense of our own traditions(the practice was called Latinization) and Vatican II pretty much brought an end to that pratice and urged us to reclaim our Eastern traditions. Yet the damage has been done and has caused resentment among Eastern Catholics, who (understandably) don't like being told that their Catholicism is "wrong" or "deficient" - when it isn't! This has sadly led to schisms and defections to Eastern Orthodoxy, where the Eastern ways are always preserved.
Also many of the changes brought about by Vatican II have origins in Eastern Catholicism. So Vatican II has in many ways brought Eastern Catholicism more into the mainstream. In the ongoing liturgy wars occurring in the Roman Church, neither side, whether "progressive" or "traditional," is usually well acquainted with Eastern Christianity. However, just as I feel that Latinization against Eastern Christians was wrong I do believe Easternization of the Latin rite is wrong as well. Each have its own unique traditions and heritage. I believe we shoudl study each others' rituals and beliefs, but we should also respect our spiritual differences.
A good article to read is [url=http://www.theuniversityconcourse.com/VI,1,10-3-2000/Dragani.htm]The importance of understanding Eastern Christianity[/url] written by an Eastern Catholic. I urged all Roman Catholics here to read it.
2003-08-04 06:47 | User Profile
*Originally posted by wintermute@Aug 4 2003, 00:38 * ** Welcome to our Online Theological Seminary, provided by Texas Dissident. Nice avatar, too.
If only Preserved Mather would join us at this thread, so that every variety of opinion, whether Miter'd or Periwigged, would be represented. **
My pleasure, wm. I would like to see a doctrinaire, five point Calvinist on-board and active.