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Thread 8439

Thread ID: 8439 | Posts: 24 | Started: 2003-07-25

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il ragno [OP]

2003-07-25 07:22 | User Profile

So far, the VNN Forum has been a disappointment - wayyy too much space devoted to pro/anti Bill White topics, and too much Nazier-than-thou chest beating....but from tiny acorns mighty oaks ofttimes grow, so I withhold judgment for now. One of the few combative, provocative yet worthwhile posts has come from a Canuck WN called 'Lucifuge' who - when asked why he hasn't submitted an essay to VNN yet - responded with the following, oddly essay-length, response. Gives you something to chew over, dunnit?

[url=http://www.vnnforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=1288]http://www.vnnforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=1288[/url]

[color=purple]> When will I write? Never. What the hell for? So some fool with a coffee cup in his hand and a bag of natchos can pound his fist on the computer desk? Bah humbug! I already know that you guys won't like what I truly think anyway. Meaning I think this fuing movement is full of idiots, shekel hunters and con men. I would name names and you would just, read it, and then move on. I could tell you how to set up a various array of financial enterprises to make a new media, but you won't do it. You will, however, always have the money to send to some useless "Free Ernst Zundel" campaign so that they can spend hundreds of thousands of dollars for a fcking guy who would gladly welcome a nier in his home. Who says on one hand, "I'm not a Nazi" and on the other, "Adolf Hitler was right!" Then pissing away, like Armageddon was coming, $40,000 dollars on an UTTERLY stupid advertisement in ONE newspaper for ONE day that wasn't even national, appealing to a Russian President half a world away! I was heavily involved in the WN movement up here (Canada) and know first hand the shenanigans involved with these ever-present cons. Don't worry I plan to stir up sht down the road and help CLEANSE the present bowel movement of its treat sucking, shekel hunting douche bags. But writing articles ain't my style.

What you don't understand, this "movement' is full of pissant, wannabe and totally devoid of common sense fuups! You get your Zundels, Dukes and other types that spend money like it was water and are NEVER accountable in their financial dealings. It took the enemy to expose Duke. I've heard stories, but pissing away almost a million bucks in a fuing Casino(s) is, well, you should know and then I hear mental midgets actually defend him with this: "Duh, he do sum good, he do!" I remember Ernst "I troll old German vets and goodwill old folks for cash" Zundel had a fuing WILL form at the bottom of his "Power" newsletter on the bottom lefthand corner! A f*cking "Will form"!! Is that sick or what? Talk about Chutzpah! He raised MILLIONs! He has been trolling for money for over 20 years and many who were close to him have said he was pissing it away like you wouldn't believe, one of which is now dead, Robert Frenz, who, BTW, had a website and never asked for a dime even though he was not well off financially. Its always nice to know I was SUCKER enough to give this little, bandy legged, peasant my money. I also remember Zundel trolling and dialing for dollars for some parliamentary room campaign. This was in the mid-90s. You see Ernie was booted out of a fuing room in parliament and he wanted to raise a few hundred grand to go after them through the infamous lawsuits of Christie & co. It never happened. I remember I was agast at this and talked to another movement leader who supported this "parliamentary room campaign" because it is wrong! I said of course it is, so fuing what? Its wrong that abortion occurs, its wrong that we destroyed Germany, its wrong that they can use human rights commissions to destroy threats, so what! Life isn't fair and the victors get the spoils! That does NOT mean he should fu away a few hundred grand all so he can talk revisionist rehashed sht to a bunch of oxygen mask wearers and tired old hasbeens whose only reason why he does so in the first place, at this point, is to raise more shekels for whatever reasons, i.e. for even more meetings and fawning sessions. He's done his thing (Leucter report) and had his trials, which may have done more harm than good in retrospect (making a circus act out of the process). Now that pile of shekels should be used for building white medias and developing projects, however, instead it is being pissed away for revisionist meetings and for a guy so he can buzz around like a gadfly to look like a "leader" and give interviews and such meanwhile his race is dying. But, I forgot, Ernst Zundel would gladly open his home to a porch monkey as per a recent interview with the Globe and Mail a couple of months ago. Here money could be used to finance pro-white projects but is instead being used to help some dried up, two-faced, fck out of a detention cell. He got his millions (I read once, for those who doubt this, in his "Power!" newsletter him BRAGGING about the amount of money he's taken in over the years, in the MILLIONs - I think it was at least over 2 million, anyway). You see, why write? I don't sound much better than Bill White, but I'm telling you the truth. Who am I? Just some asshole in the financial world who knows something about con artists and backroom deals. Which, incidentally, brings me back to Mumia Zundel. Zundel and his hag wife write like professionals when it comes to raising shekels. He knows what buttons to push and where to push them. These old folks are suckers. His skill is on level with a telemarketer scam artist. The problem is with these guys, they never know when to quit! They have been sucking this teat for so long they don't know when to quit or how to make a living of their own anymore. Its so easy to just send out some tearjerker sh*t or act "poisecuted" and then wait for the cash to roll in. When I lost my ass in the dot.com bubble I wans't asking for handouts or crying like a baby, EVEN THOUGH I could have!

Why write? It ain't pretty and I'll just end up being a Joooo. Well, for the record, I plan someday to start writing all fuing right and eliminate these parasites out of the money tree! I've given thousands of dollars to Zundel and a whole host of dickwads out there and never have I received an accounting or what exactly they have done with the monies. No business plan, nothing! That means this bowel movement has a bunch of two-bit carnies and f*ck ups trolling for dollars and that has got to end! I don't care what anyone says because I'm fuing right! Nearly 60 years after WWII and all that seems to prevail are chest thumpers, con artists, gadflies that do nothing but buzz around and give interviews and see themsleves quoted in some Jew rag, and self-proclaimed "leaders". So we, and I, have nothing to lose. Time to take out the trash. We're losing and gonna lose as we stand so long as White, Zundel, Covington, Duke and a few others are buzzing around pumping us up the ass!

Still sure you want this prick to write? I'm not nice and may have you peace keepers wringing your hands. Oh, I'm mad dog mean too. A big meanie who doesn't cry or get emotional about every hard luck ase that comes along. Who wants those who would reach for your pockets to be accountable and not piss it away like drunken sailors. In a world of Enrons and Worldcoms I'm one wild and crazy guy!!!!** [/color]

Zoroaster

2003-07-25 15:50 | User Profile

I pretty much share your opinion of the VNN forum. Posting there is a waste of time.

-Z-

Texas Dissident

2003-07-26 10:32 | User Profile

Bet on me, white nationalists, and I will lead you. After all, the leader must always be a Texan.

;) :) (Inside joke)

NeoNietzsche

2003-07-26 15:20 | User Profile

Originally posted by wintermute@Jul 25 2003, 18:37 * With apologies to NeoNietzsche, the vast majority of whites must be convinced that what they are doing is good, in a larger sense.*

And such is the terrible dilemma - for there is no "good, in a larger sense" which really is good in a meaningful sense. For the common man, convinced of his own putative goodness/cultural superiority, has been and is a global menace, a cancer being spread toward destruction of all good order in the world.

The vast majority of Whites will take back their own destiny when they form of themselves an army led by their own noble king and God of War - but this is impermissible, of course, by the theocratic elite which flatters them, prostitutes them, and crusades them to its own "good" purposes - good, in a larger sense, of course.

Only the noble man, the polytheistic man, has the sense of proportion which does not entertain the universalist impulse, the fanatic monotheist impulse, the lower man's slavish impulse, to "do good" to all the world which would rather not be done to. The universalist moralizers must be overcome before White Men can resume the pursuit of property and purposes which are appropriate to their own community and commerce.

Texas Dissident

2003-07-26 19:08 | User Profile

*Originally posted by NeoNietzsche@Jul 26 2003, 10:20 * ** The universalist moralizers must be overcome before White Men can resume the pursuit of property and purposes which are appropriate to their own community and commerce. **

Is this your universal moral you are moralizing with universally?

NeoNietzsche

2003-07-26 20:00 | User Profile

Originally posted by Texas Dissident+Jul 26 2003, 13:08 -->

QUOTE* (Texas Dissident @ Jul 26 2003, 13:08 )

<!--QuoteBegin-NeoNietzsche@Jul 26 2003, 10:20 * ** The universalist moralizers must be overcome before White Men can resume the pursuit of property and purposes which are appropriate to their own community and commerce. ** Is this your universal moral you are moralizing with universally?** Ah, Brother Tex, another variation on the atheism-is-just-another-faith-so-I'm-entitled-to-mine theme. The objection to universalist moralizing is, rather, the rejection thereof, not a variant thereof. And atheism is the absence of theism, not a variant thereof. For an empty glass has nothing in it - it is not negatively full, so-to-speak. So, this is your cue for delighting in the implicit concession that "atheism has nothing in it". And I thank you for taking enduring notice of this. Texas Dissident 2003-07-26 20:12 | User Profile Originally posted by NeoNietzsche@Jul 26 2003, 15:00 * And I thank you for taking enduring notice of this.* You're most welcome, brother NN. It pains me that you would settle for the empty glass, when the full glass is freely available to you. Drink from the cup which is able to sustain and fortify the whole man. I'll keep praying for you and A. NeoNietzsche 2003-07-26 21:15 | User Profile Originally posted by Texas Dissident+Jul 26 2003, 14:12 --> QUOTE (Texas Dissident @ Jul 26 2003, 14:12 ) <!--QuoteBegin-NeoNietzsche@Jul 26 2003, 15:00 * And I thank you for taking enduring notice of this.* You're most welcome, brother NN. It pains me that you would settle for the empty glass, when the full glass is freely available to you. Drink from the cup which is able to sustain and fortify the whole man. I'll keep praying for you and A.** Thanks, Brother Tex, but your invitation is to intoxication in your glass of seemingly innocent poison. It has an unpleasant taste, and it disastrously affects the judgment and demeanor of its jolly partisans. NeoNietzsche 2003-07-27 00:07 | User Profile Originally posted by wintermute@Jul 26 2003, 17:44 * > Bet on me, white nationalists, and I will lead you. After all, the leader must always be a Texan.* Should we take this to mean that you'll be coming down from Sinai/Tabor some time soon? **The universalist moralizers must be overcome before White Men can resume the pursuit of property and purposes which are appropriate to their own community and commerce. ** Well, that certainly sounds like an interesting program, but I'm not sure that it will ever be accomplished. Or that it needs to be. If whites were ever to include themselves in the 'circle of benevolence', we might make some progress, and as that seems less time consuming than the plan that you offer us, and simpler, I will opt for it, being a simple, impatient man myself. Why not just convince Christians that there is no way to love your neighbor, while destroying the extended family that he requires for life, meaning, and happiness? Better to fashion some shoes than cover the whole world with leather. Wintermute** Why not just convince Christians that there is no way to love your neighbor, while destroying the extended family that he requires for life, meaning, and happiness? Will your converted Christians commit/endorse the requisite atrocities in behalf of the merely smaller good of their extended family rather than in behalf of the "larger good" fed to them by Priest and Jew? If not, I mark your efforts a waste. How 'bout we poll the Brethren? Avalanche 2003-07-27 00:21 | User Profile My lord and Master:  Thanks, Brother Tex, but your invitation is to intoxication in your glass of seemingly innocent poison. It has an unpleasant taste, and it disastrously affects the judgment and demeanor of its jolly partisans. One must be careful about what one drinks:> **[color=purple][SIZE=2] What three things does drink especially provoke? ... sir, it provokes, and unprovokes; it provokes the desire, but it takes away the performance ... it makes him, and it mars him; it sets him on, and it takes him off; it persuades him, and disheartens him; makes him stand to, and not stand to; in conclusion, equivocates him in a sleep, and, giving him the lie, leaves him. MacBeth Act II Scene III  (edited by Avalanche)[/color][/SIZE]** Texas Dissident 2003-07-27 07:56 | User Profile *Originally posted by wintermute@Jul 26 2003, 18:44 * ** Should we take this to mean that you'll be coming down from Sinai/Tabor some time soon? ** Nah. I did go up to Mount Enterprise a few weeks back, though. :) NeoNietzsche 2003-07-27 08:04 | User Profile Originally posted by NeoNietzsche@Jul 26 2003, 18:07 * > Why not just convince Christians that there is no way to love your neighbor, while destroying the extended family that he requires for life, meaning, and happiness?* Will your converted Christians commit/endorse the requisite atrocities in behalf of the merely smaller good of their extended family rather than in behalf of the "larger good" fed to them by Priest and Jew? If not, I mark your efforts a waste. How 'bout we poll the Brethren?** Speaking of which, we have the following commitments, to this point: 1) Brother Tex wants to pray for me. 2) Brother Weisbrot wants to blow me. 3) Brother Walter wants to f*ck Leland. 4) Brother Patrick wants to punch out Wintermute. 5) Brother Okie wants us up against the wall with the ADL. At least Brother Okie shows some promise in the measures he is prepared to take. Texas Dissident 2003-07-27 08:13 | User Profile Originally posted by NeoNietzsche@Jul 27 2003, 03:04 * *4) Brother Okie wants us up against the wall with the ADL. ** *He was born in Oklahoma, His wife's name's Betty Lou Thelma Liz And he's not responsible for what he's doing Cause his mother made him what he is. And it's up against the wall Redneck Mother, Mother, who has raised her son so well. He's thirty-four and drinking in a honky tonk. Just kicking hippies asses and raising hell. Sure does like his Falstaff beer, Likes to chase it down with that Wild Turkey liquor; Drives a fifty-seven GMC pickup truck; He's got a gun rack; "Goat ropers need love, too" sticker And it's up against the wall Redneck Mother, Mother, who has raised her son so well. He's thirty-four and drinking in a honky tonk. Just kicking hippies asses and raising hell. Well, M is for the mudflaps you give me for my pickup truck O is for the Oil I put on my hair T is for T-bird H is for Haggard E is for eggs, and R is for REDNECK. Up against the wall Redneck Mother, Mother, who has raised her son so well. He's thirty-four and drinking in a honky tonk. Kicking hippies asses and raising hell.* NeoNietzsche 2003-07-27 08:56 | User Profile Originally posted by NeoNietzsche@Jul 27 2003, 02:04 * 3) Brother Walter wants to fck Leland.** And, lest we neglect our ministrations to Brother Walter: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ *Don't Let's Be Beastly To The Germans Music and Lyrics by Noel Coward (1943) (Dropped from the revue, "Flying Colours" at the Lyric Theatre on August 26th 1943) Verse 1 We must be kind And with an open mind We must endeavour to find A way- To let the Germans know that when the war is over They are not the ones who'll have to pay. We must be sweet- And tactful and discreet And when they've suffered defeat We mustn't let Them feel upset Or ever get The feeling that we're cross with them or hate them, Our future policy must be to reinstate them. Refrain 1 Don't let's be beastly to the Germans When our victory is ultimately won, It was just those nasty Nazis who persuaded them to fight And their Beethoven and Bach are really far worse than their bite Let's be meek to them- And turn the other cheek to them And try to bring out their latent sense of fun. Let's give them full air parity- And treat the rats with charity, But don't let's be beastly to the Hun. Verse 2 We must be just- And win their love and trust And in additon we must Be wise And ask the conquered lands to join our hands to aid them. That would be a wonderful surprise. For many years- They've been in floods of tears Because the poor little dears Have been so wronged and only longed To cheat the world, Deplete the world And beat The world to blazes. This is the moment when we ought to sing their praises. Refrain 2 Don't let's be beastly to the Germans When we've definately got them on the run- Let us treat them very kindly as we would a valued friend We might send them out some Bishops as a form of lease and lend, Let's be sweet to them- And day by day repeat to them That 'sterilization' simply isn't done. Let's help the dirty swine again- To occupy the Rhine again, But don't let's be beastly to the Hun. Refrain 3 Don't let's be beastly to the Germans When the age of peace and plenty has begun. We must send them steel and oil and coal and everything they need For their peaceable intentions can be always guaranteed. Let's employ with them a sort of 'strength through joy' with them, They're better than us at honest manly fun. Let's let them feel they're swell again and bomb us all to hell again, But don't let's be beastly to the Hun. Refrain 4 Don't let's be beastly to the Germans For you can't deprive a ganster of his gun Though they've been a little naughty to the Czechs and Poles and Dutch But I don't suppose those countries really minded very much Let's be free with them and share the B.B.C. with them. We mustn't prevent them basking in the sun. Let's soften their defeat again-and build their bloody fleet again, But don't let's be beastly to the Hun.* Paleoleftist 2003-07-28 01:48 | User Profile *Originally posted by NeoNietzsche@Jul 26 2003, 09:20 * ** And such is the terrible dilemma - for there is no "good, in a larger sense" which really is good in a meaningful sense. ** So the survival of European peoples and culture is not "good, in a larger sense", if we follow the Gospel according to NeoNietzsche? :jest: How about the survival of mankind? :rolleyes: NeoNietzsche 2003-07-28 02:52 | User Profile Originally posted by Paleoleftist+Jul 27 2003, 19:48 --> QUOTE* (Paleoleftist @ Jul 27 2003, 19:48 ) <!--QuoteBegin-NeoNietzsche@Jul 26 2003, 09:20 * ** And such is the terrible dilemma - for there is no "good, in a larger sense" which really is good in a meaningful sense. ** So the survival of European peoples and culture is not "good, in a larger sense", if we follow the Gospel according to NeoNietzsche? :jest: How about the survival of mankind? :rolleyes:** So the survival of European peoples and culture is not "good, in a larger sense", if we follow the Gospel according to NeoNietzsche?  :jest: It is good merely in the smaller sense of such peoples and culture having the usual proprietary interest - absent a universalist rationale which you, Paleoleftist, are welcome to attempt for our amusement. Wintermute's point was that Whites need to believe in a transcendent meaning and purpose attached to their survival. My point was that these purposes, as manifest principally in various forms of crusading and self-righteous cultural imperialism, have rather been destructive of enduring societal order throughout the world, and portend ultimate catastrophe. BTW, welcome back, PL. Paleoleftist 2003-07-28 03:11 | User Profile Originally posted by NeoNietzsche@Jul 27 2003, 20:52 * ** It is good merely in the smaller* sense of such peoples and culture having the usual proprietary interest - absent a universalist rationale which you, Paleoleftist, are welcome to attempt for our amusement. Wintermute's point was that Whites need to believe in a transcendent meaning and purpose attached to their survival. My point was that these purposes, as manifest principally in various forms of crusading and self-righteous cultural imperialism, have rather been destructive of enduring societal order throughout the world, and portend ultimate catastrophe. BTW, welcome back, PL. ** Thanks, NN. Wintermute is right. You are also right, in the part about self-righteous cultural imperialism. But cultural imperialism is a hypocritical mis-application of universal principles. That doesn´t make the principles themselves wrong. Universalist rationale for European survival? Glad you ask. From a merely utilitarian viewpoint, it lies in the vast scientific and humanitarian contributions our civilization has made to the history of mankind. From a Christian viewpoint, there is God´s plan, of course, which doesn´t call for the extinction of any nation or culture, last time I checked. Walter Yannis has explained that best, in the Christianity and Nationalism thread. NeoNietzsche 2003-07-28 03:48 | User Profile Originally posted by Paleoleftist+Jul 27 2003, 21:11 --> QUOTE (Paleoleftist @ Jul 27 2003, 21:11 ) <!--QuoteBegin-NeoNietzsche@Jul 27 2003, 20:52 * ** It is good merely in the smaller* sense of such peoples and culture having the usual proprietary interest - absent a universalist rationale which you, Paleoleftist, are welcome to attempt for our amusement.  Wintermute's point was that Whites need to believe in a transcendent meaning and purpose attached to their survival.  My point was that these purposes, as manifest principally in various forms of crusading and self-righteous cultural imperialism, have rather been destructive of enduring societal order throughout the world, and portend ultimate catastrophe. BTW, welcome back, PL. ** Thanks, NN. Wintermute is right. You are also right, in the part about self-righteous cultural imperialism. But cultural imperialism is a hypocritical mis-application of universal principles. That doesn´t make the principles themselves wrong. Universalist rationale for European survival? Glad you ask. From a merely utilitarian viewpoint, it lies in the vast scientific and humanitarian contributions our civilization has made to the history of mankind. From a Christian viewpoint, there is God´s plan, of course, which doesn´t call for the extinction of any nation or culture, last time I checked. Walter Yannis has explained that best, in the Christianity and Nationalism thread.** Universalist rationale for European survival? Glad you ask. From a merely utilitarian viewpoint, it lies in the vast scientific and humanitarian contributions our civilization has made to the history of mankind. As the New World Civilizations were wiped out by gold-robbing brigands with superior technology, and Asia plus half of Europe was given over to mega-cidal scientific socialism, just to mention the most obvious benefits. Also, the memory of the technically advanced firebombings of Axis civilians always warms my heart. If only the Medieval crusaders had had such means at their disposal, how many more Muslim innocents could have been righteously slaughtered, amidst the bizarre imperialism to which armies of fanatical morons had been exhorted. And the worldwide medical facilitation of the survival of children destined to starve always gets me right here, ya know. NeoNietzsche 2003-07-28 04:12 | User Profile Originally posted by Paleoleftist+Jul 27 2003, 21:11 --> QUOTE (Paleoleftist @ Jul 27 2003, 21:11 ) <!--QuoteBegin-NeoNietzsche@Jul 27 2003, 20:52 * ** It is good merely in the smaller* sense of such peoples and culture having the usual proprietary interest - absent a universalist rationale which you, Paleoleftist, are welcome to attempt for our amusement.  Wintermute's point was that Whites need to believe in a transcendent meaning and purpose attached to their survival.  My point was that these purposes, as manifest principally in various forms of crusading and self-righteous cultural imperialism, have rather been destructive of enduring societal order throughout the world, and portend ultimate catastrophe. BTW, welcome back, PL. ** Thanks, NN. Wintermute is right. You are also right, in the part about self-righteous cultural imperialism. But cultural imperialism is a hypocritical mis-application of universal principles. That doesn´t make the principles themselves wrong. Universalist rationale for European survival? Glad you ask. From a merely utilitarian viewpoint, it lies in the vast scientific and humanitarian contributions our civilization has made to the history of mankind. From a Christian viewpoint, there is God´s plan, of course, which doesn´t call for the extinction of any nation or culture, last time I checked. Walter Yannis has explained that best, in the Christianity and Nationalism thread.** From a Christian viewpoint, there is God´s plan, of course, which doesn´t call for the extinction of any nation or culture, last time I checked. When's the last time you checked the last book of the NT? Paleoleftist 2003-07-28 04:29 | User Profile Originally posted by NeoNietzsche@Jul 27 2003, 22:12 * ** > From a Christian viewpoint, there is God´s plan, of course, which doesn´t call for the extinction of any nation or culture, last time I checked.* When's the last time you checked the last book of the NT? ** :D Nice try. I must admit I sometimes genuinely enjoy your replicas. You didn´t get me, though. I said "call for". It´s not for US to collectively destroy any nations. This is God´s prerogative. Apart from that, Catholics are not very inclined to take said last book literally. We allow for parts of the Bible being metaphoric. WY, forgive me and correct me if I´m wrong here! Paleoleftist 2003-07-28 04:52 | User Profile Originally posted by NeoNietzsche@Jul 27 2003, 21:48 * ** > Universalist rationale for European survival? Glad you ask. From a merely utilitarian viewpoint, it lies in the vast scientific and humanitarian contributions our civilization has made to the history of mankind.* As the New World Civilizations were wiped out by gold-robbing brigands with superior technology, and Asia plus half of Europe was given over to mega-cidal scientific socialism, just to mention the most obvious benefits. Also, the memory of the technically advanced firebombings of Axis civilians always warms my heart. If only the Medieval crusaders had had such means at their disposal, how many more Muslim innocents could have been righteously slaughtered, amidst the bizarre imperialism to which armies of fanatical morons had been exhorted. And the worldwide medical facilitation of the survival of children destined to starve always gets me right here, ya know. ** Strawman. I didn´t say Europeans never did anything morally wrong or intellectually misguided. But, without Europeans, there would exist little science and technology worth mentioning, and most European contributions to thought -even the Atheistic ones- were meant to be beneficial, though, with their practical application, it was not always the case. On balance, I´d say Europeans are at least as, if not more, naturally humanitarian than other races; perhaps sometimes too much so, possibly part of the reason why we are in trouble. Btw, hilarious to see you making the anti-Euro case here! :D (I know that isn´t your intent, but still... :lol: ) NeoNietzsche 2003-07-28 05:10 | User Profile Originally posted by Paleoleftist+Jul 27 2003, 22:52 --> QUOTE (Paleoleftist @ Jul 27 2003, 22:52 ) <!--QuoteBegin-NeoNietzsche@Jul 27 2003, 21:48 * ** > Universalist rationale for European survival? Glad you ask. From a merely utilitarian viewpoint, it lies in the vast scientific and humanitarian contributions our civilization has made to the history of mankind.* As the New World Civilizations were wiped out by gold-robbing brigands with superior technology, and Asia plus half of Europe was given over to mega-cidal scientific socialism, just to mention the most obvious benefits. Also, the memory of the technically advanced firebombings of Axis civilians always warms my heart. If only the Medieval crusaders had had such means at their disposal, how many more Muslim innocents could have been righteously slaughtered, amidst the bizarre imperialism to which armies of fanatical morons had been exhorted. And the worldwide medical facilitation of the survival of children destined to starve always gets me right here, ya know. ** Strawman. I didn´t say Europeans never did anything morally wrong or intellectually misguided. But, without Europeans, there would exist little science and technology worth mentioning, and most European contributions to thought -even the Atheistic ones- were meant to be beneficial, though, with their practical application, it was not always the case. On balance, I´d say Europeans are at least as, if not more, naturally humanitarian than other races; perhaps sometimes too much so, possibly part of the reason why we are in trouble. Btw, hilarious to see you making the anti-Euro case here! :D (I know that isn´t your intent, but still... :lol: )** Strawman. I didn´t say Europeans never did anything morally wrong or intellectually misguided. Not a "Strawman" - that which would be merely a misrepresentative substitution for your position. I gave devastating counter-examples in direct refutation of your position. But, without Europeans, there would exist little science and technology worth mentioning... This does not sustain your burden of showing that S&T are "good". ...and most European contributions to thought -even the Atheistic ones- were meant to be beneficial, though, with their practical application, it was not always the case. Good intentions are not at issue. The Road to Hell, and all that... NeoNietzsche 2003-07-28 05:23 | User Profile Originally posted by Paleoleftist+Jul 27 2003, 22:29 --> QUOTE (Paleoleftist @ Jul 27 2003, 22:29 ) <!--QuoteBegin-NeoNietzsche@Jul 27 2003, 22:12 * ** > From a Christian viewpoint, there is God´s plan, of course, which doesn´t call for the extinction of any nation or culture, last time I checked.* When's the last time you checked the last book of the NT? ** :D Nice try. I must admit I sometimes genuinely enjoy your replicas. You didn´t get me, though. I said "call for". It´s not for US to collectively destroy any nations. This is God´s prerogative. Apart from that, Catholics are not very inclined to take said last book literally. We allow for parts of the Bible being metaphoric. WY, forgive me and correct me if I´m wrong here!** Your burden is the provision of a universalist rationale for European survival. Quoting you: "Universalist rationale for European survival? Glad you ask. From a merely utilitarian viewpoint, it lies in the vast scientific and humanitarian contributions our civilization has made to the history of mankind. From a Christian viewpoint, there is God´s plan, of course, which doesn´t call for the extinction of any nation or culture, last time I checked. Walter Yannis has explained that best, in the Christianity and Nationalism thread." Your remarks, above, though ostensibly directed to that point, are unresponsive and confusing. The Apocalypse of John stands in refutation of your "God's plan" remark. NeoNietzsche 2003-07-28 05:32 | User Profile Originally posted by Paleoleftist@Jul 27 2003, 22:52 * Btw, hilarious to see you making the anti-Euro case here!  :D (I know that isn´t your intent, but still...  :lol: )* I'm really making the anti-hypocrisy, anti-stupidity case. Too bad the Euro's can be so closely identified with these elements.