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Thread 8432

Thread ID: 8432 | Posts: 20 | Started: 2003-07-25

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friedrich braun [OP]

2003-07-25 04:07 | User Profile

Is CI hurting the WN movement? Questions for CI/BI folks (and others):

Firstly, I’ll freely admit that I know next to nothing about CI/BI. However, if it’s true that they view atheists (even White racialists) such as myself as “of the Devil”, etc., etc., etc., and that, given the opportunity, they would attempt to forcibly convert me to their “religion”, and if I refused to be thus converted they wouldn’t hesitate to have me killed, well, I find that mind-set to be somewhat problematic.

How is the above attitude different than that of the fanatics subscribing to the Wahhabi dispensation? I don’t know to what extent one can reason with a closed-minded religious fanatic. I might enunciate my wish and desire to be left alone, and have my freedom of conscience respected (and I’ll return the favour, of course, & all that), but will the fanatic listen? I doubt it. He’s not interested in peaceful coexistence; their typical attitude is: “you’re either with us or against us;” “and my holy book [insert name] tells me to hate you…”

Secondly, my worry is that CI/BI folks are liable to turn off potential sympathizers to the WN, if they’re not isolated or excluded. I think that a secular/non-denominational public image for the WN movement is of the essence if we are to attract young, intelligent, educated, and articulate followers. The fact is that if any WN message comes intermixed with the CI/BI moronic ramblings, it will automatically lose all efficacy or credibility with the vast majority of people. The costs of having CI/BI loons inside the tent would seem to outweigh any potential benefits. Plus, the media is liable to focus on them in order to discredit WN, and, therefore, paint a picture of WNs as wackos and imbeciles.

Additionally, if some type of “spirituality” is indeed necessary for most people, I think that a return to Euro-pagan spirituality as advocated by such “new right” intellectuals as Alain de Benoist is the right path for Whites to take.

BTW, this popular need for some type of transcendence is not as extensive as one would think. Christianity is on the way out in a hurry amongst the Western peoples (with the notable exceptions of Afrikaners and Americans). The situation in much of East Asia is analogous (China is officially atheist and very suspicious, if not outright paranoid, of any organized religious groups). A recent study indicates that only 6 % of the Japanese self-identify as “believers”.

Anyway, these are just my thoughts.

Facts vs. wacky CI/BI theology

Who were the Ancient Israelites? And What happened to the Ten Lost Tribes? From the Bible Unearthed: Archaelogy's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of its Sacred Texts: Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman.

[url=http://www.bibleandscience.com/unearthed.htm]http://www.bibleandscience.com/unearthed.htm[/url]

In the past scholars have identified the Israelites with the Apiru which is linguistically connected to “Hebrew.” They are mentioned in the Amarna letters. Another group called the Shosu or Shashu are also thought to be the Israelites. The Shosu were pastoral nomads. For more details see [url=http://bibleandscience.com/evidenceofexodus.htm]http://bibleandscience.com/evidenceofexodus.htm[/url].

Finkelstein and Silberman believe that the Israelites were actually the Canaanites. Surveys of Israel reveal that there was no conquest, nor infiltration, but a revolution in lifestyle (107). There is a shift from earlier tent camps to villages to rectangular pillared houses. There was a shift from pastoral nomads to a permanent agricultural life (112-13).

Finkelstein and Silberman state, “The process that we describe here is, in fact, the opposite of what we have in the Bible: the emergence of early Israel was an outcome of the collapse of the Canaanite culture, not its cause. And most of the Israelites did not come from outside Canaan—they emerged from within it” (p.118).

What happened to the "Ten Lost Tribes of Israel"? See [url=http://bibleandscience.com/losttribes.htm]http://bibleandscience.com/losttribes.htm[/url]

What happened to the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel?

INTRODUCTION

There has been many stories as to what happened to the ten lost tribes of Israel. We will look at some of the most influential theories, but first we need to know how they got lost.

Assyria

2 Kings 17:3-6 records, "Shalmaneser king of Assyria came up to attack Hoshea, who had been Shalmaneser's vassal and had paid him tribute. But the king of Assyria discovered that Hoshea was a traitor, for he had sent envoys to So king of Egypt, and he no longer paid tribute to the king of Assyria, as he had done year by year. Therefore Shalmaneser seized him and put him in prison. The king of Assyria invaded the entire land, marched against Samaria and laid siege to it for three years. In the ninth year of Hoshea, the king of Assyria captured Samaria and deported the Israelites to Assyria. He settled them in Halah, in Gozan on the Habor River and in the towns of the Medes" (NIV).

According to these verses the king of Assyria took the ten tribes of Israel captive. He deported them to Halah (possibly Calah), to Gozan on the Habor River which is a tributary of the Euphrates River, and other towns of the Medes. The Assyrians would displace people from one area and replace them with captured people of another area in order to reduce the chance of rebellion.

2 Kings 17:24 states, "The king of Assyria brought people from Babylon, Cuthah, Avva, Hamath and Sepharvaim and settled them in the towns of Samaria to replace the Israelites" (NIV). It is also probable that some Israelites were sent to these towns as well.

Samaritans

Some say the Samaritans were the result of intermarriage of the Jews that were left in the land of Israel with the people that were deported by the King of Assyria from Babylon, Cuthah, Avva, Hamath and Sepharvaim. Nehemiah separates the pure Jews from those that intermarried (Nehemiah 13:28-29). Josephus says that the "Samaritans" is their Greek name while "Cutheans" is their Hebrew name. They were brought out of the country of Cuthah which is in Persia. They continued to worship false gods until God sent a plague resulting in their worship of the God of Israel and His laws (Antiquities of the Jews Book IX, 14:3).

According to Josephus during the Greek period Manasseh, the brother of Jaddua the high priest had married Nicaso, a foreign woman. The priests demanded that Manasseh divorce his wife or not approach the altar. Sanballat II (different from the one mentioned in Nehemiah) his father-in-law told Manasseh that he would build him a temple on Mount Gerizum just like the one at Jerusalem if he would not divorce his wife. Alexander the Great gave Sanballat, a general in his army, permission to build the temple (Antiquities of the Jews Book XI, 8:2-4). Some Two hundred years later Hyrcanus destroyed the temple on Mount Gerizum (Antiquities of the Jews Book XIII, 9:1).

The Samaritans were hated by the Jews which is seen in the New Testmant. Jews would cross over to Perea to avoid going through Samaria. In John 5 Jesus goes through Samaria and talks to a Samaritan woman at the well.

Synagogues

Many Jews that were taken into Assyrian and Babylonian captivity did not return to Israel. Jews were scattered all over the known world. It is during the time between the Old and New Testaments that the synagogues were started to preserve their Jewish heritage.

New Testament

By the time of Christ the Jews had been scattered all over the Roman empire. On the Day of Penticost Jews came to Jerusalem from "every nation under heaven" (Acts 2:5-12). On Paul's missionary trips he met Jews at every city that he visited. There were large Jewish populations at Alexandra, Egypt and Antioch in Syria. There is no mystery where the Jews were scattered to during captivity. Paul visited many of them on his missionary trips.

Mormons

After Columbus discovered America in 1492 there was much speculation as to how the Indians came to America. Joseph Smith believed that some of the Indians were from some of the tribes of Israel. Mormons believe that a family from the tribe of Manasseh migrated to the America shortly before Jerusalem was destroyed in 586 B.C., and that another group migrated after the fall of Jerusalem. Smith wrote the Book of Mormon to explain about the Indians that Christ visited after he arose. Smith claims that he angel Moroni came to him and showed him where there was a book of golden plates written in hieroglyphics that he was able to translate with special glasses. This translation was the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith's views are not backed by archaeological research. They were mere 19th century speculation about the Indians. For more information see [url=http://www.irr.org/mit/]http://www.irr.org/mit/[/url]. Does archaeology support the Book of Mormon? See [url=http://www.irr.org/mit/bomarch1.html]http://www.irr.org/mit/bomarch1.html[/url].

World Wide Church of God

Herbert W. Armstrong who founded the World Wide Church of God believed that the ten lost tribes of Israel were the white British-American people. There is no evidence for this.

Conclusion

The Ten Lost Tribes are not lost. They were sent into captivity by Assyria. As a result of the Assyria and Babylonian captivities colonies of Jews spread all over the ancient world. Synagogues were established. There are a number of good books that detail the history of the Jews from Bible times down to the present day which indicates that many Jews were persecuted by Christ church down through the ages. For a brief history of Israel see [url=http://www.israel.org/mfa/go.asp?MFAH00kt0]http://www.israel.org/mfa/go.asp?MFAH00kt0[/url].

Okiereddust

2003-07-25 04:55 | User Profile

I was hoping you had some special insight. But in fact yours is just the standard secularist critique, and is quite ironic, in view of the NA's own much greater IMO negative impact on the movement with its anti-religious diatribes and intolerance.

Like most secular intolerance it is far greater than its religious counterpart, and shares a great deal with other forms of secularism.

It does make me realize how great the internal differences within the WN are. It appears almost as great as between WN's and leftist multiculturalists. And it appears magnified by the great preference of WN's to spend time fighting each other, or stirring up such fights.

Some are just stupid. Others are in all probability agent provoceteurs. :ph34r:

In any event, the invasion of this forum and other venues of WN by anti-religious zealots who's loutishness knows no bounds is prima facie evidence something serious is going on, IMO.

friedrich braun

2003-07-25 06:12 | User Profile

Okiereddust:

Well, what can I say? That was a very astute and perspicacious post.

Indeed, I am an agent provocateur working for various federal agencies, as well as several anti-racist groups.

Wintermute:

Thank you for the warm welcome!

Frederick William I

2003-07-25 06:15 | User Profile

Originally posted by wintermute@Jul 25 2003, 05:37 * *If you and Patrick are the heirs of Abraham in the flesh, no need to worry: a quick visit to the blood bank will put a quick end to nagging doubts.

Mr. Braun -

I don't think I've seen you around before, in which case welcome to the forum.

Wintermute**

Never seen Friedrich Braun around WM? Look again, :lol: If I didn't know better, I'd say we both had an uncanny prussian resemblence! Herr Braun, maybe we should just call you Darth Frederick ;)

Wintermute after reading your posts the thought of preaching to you and your ilk crosses my mind. In the old Prussian tradition of the Teutonic Knights I am reminded though why the Knights always carried the sword along with the Bible. They usually found the sword more useful.

friedrich braun

2003-07-25 06:54 | User Profile

FW I:

Holy Jebus! We do look alike!

Wintermute:

Yes, the Triune God: The Angry Father, The Loving Son, and Their Flying Side-Kick, The Holy Ghost. And let's not forget the Most Blessed Virgin, the Mystical Rose, the Mother of God, etc. almost a member of the three (four)-headed Christian God, but not quite...yet!

BTW, did you know that there's a new site on "Biblical creationism"? Sometimes it's difficult to know what's a parody and what isn't... [url=http://objective.jesussave.us/creationsciencefair.html]http://objective.jesussave.us/creationsciencefair.html[/url]

Hilaire Belloc

2003-07-25 07:42 | User Profile

Oh, I remember the Teutonic Knights, alright. They rode two to a horse and explained the Trinity in terms of The Divine Kisser (the Father), The Divine Kiss (Holy Spirit), and The Mouth of Surpassing Sweetness (Jesus Christ).

I believe those were those were the Knights Templar, another famous military religious order of the time. The Templars' seal had two knights riding on a horse as shown here [img]http://www.stephendafoe.com/ktpin1.gif[/img]

This was meant to represent both the vows of poverty each member swore to uphold and the brotherhood and camraderie found among members. Heres more information [url=http://www.templarhistory.com/seal.html]here[/url]

There were many [url=http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10304d.htm]military religious orders[/url] during the Middle Ages. The major orders were the Knights Templar(who were from France mostly), the Hospitallers of St. John of Jerusalem(mostly from Italy), and the Teutonic Knights(mostly from Germany).

some Teutonic Knights links [url=http://www.deutscher-orden.at/]http://www.deutscher-orden.at/[/url] offical site of the order [url=http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14541b.htm]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14541b.htm[/url] [url=http://kuhttp.cc.ukans.edu/kansas/orb/encyclop/religion/monastic/opsahl1.html]http://kuhttp.cc.ukans.edu/kansas/orb/ency...ic/opsahl1.html[/url] [url=http://www.chivalricorders.org/vatican/teutonic.htm]http://www.chivalricorders.org/vatican/teutonic.htm[/url] [url=http://www.crystalinks.com/templars8.html]http://www.crystalinks.com/templars8.html[/url]

Zoroaster

2003-07-25 12:20 | User Profile

If CI's claims were valid, we'd be speaking Hebrew instead of English.

-Z-

Sojourner

2003-07-25 15:30 | User Profile

Meanwhile, in the thread next door, Patrick and Golfball are getting their rocks off on the thoughts of God's enemies being punished for all eternity**. Golfball's eagerly looking forward, and Patrick's chanting chapter and verse. **

I see you're showing off your ignorance once again. I suggest you confront Patrick with this false assumption..

Always entertaining to watch scriptural ignoramuses spouting off things they have absolutely no understanding of... :y

:rock: :rolleyes:

Patrick

2003-07-25 16:46 | User Profile

”Firstly, I’ll freely admit that I know next to nothing about CI/BI.”

My...

.....What a revelation; good thing you informed us... :rolleyes

”However, if it’s true that they view atheists (even White racialists) such as myself as “of the Devil”, etc., etc., etc., and that, given the opportunity, they would attempt to forcibly convert me to their “religion”, and if I refused to be thus converted they wouldn’t hesitate to have me killed, well, I find that mind-set to be somewhat problematic.”

.....Not true; point rendered moot... Scripture declares “he that hath an ear, let him hear; he that will forebear, let him forebear”; therefore, anyone holding such silly tenets is not operating from Scripture; I don’t claim to be “Identity”, nor “British Israel”, (a Rothschild invention, btw), but I am aware of some of their Doctrine...

”How is the above attitude different than that of the fanatics subscribing to the Wahhabi dispensation?”

.....The “above attitude" is imaginary; the wahabbi is not...

”I don’t know to what extent one can reason with a closed-minded religious fanatic.”

.....Agreed; it is almost as difficult as reasoning with a close-minded atheist...

”Secondly, my worry is that CI/BI folks are liable to turn off potential sympathizers to the WN, if they’re not isolated or excluded.”

.....Gee, that’s certainly understandable; you surely wouldn’t wish to tarnish the reputation of the skinheads that have provided such wonderful public relations up til’ now... Surely the general public is far more enamored, at this point, with the swastika , and those that make Hitler a “god”, than the Bible; perhaps once your “movement” discovers that many of the more rabid are government employees and agents povacatuers, building cells with which to malign the general caucasian race conscious, you’ll know who it is that needs to be “isolated or excluded”...

”I think that a secular/non-denominational public image for the WN movement is of the essence if we are to attract young, intelligent, educated, and articulate followers. The fact is that if any WN message comes intermixed with the CI/BI moronic ramblings, it will automatically lose all efficacy or credibility with the vast majority of people. The costs of having CI/BI loons inside the tent would seem to outweigh any potential benefits. Plus, the media is liable to focus on them in order to discredit WN, and, therefore, paint a picture of WNs as wackos and imbeciles.”

.....Are you “jewish”?

”Additionally, if some type of “spirituality” is indeed necessary for most people, I think that a return to Euro-pagan spirituality as advocated by such “new right” intellectuals as Alain de Benoist is the right path for Whites to take.”

.....I find it humorous that you would refer to that as “thinking”...

*”Facts vs. wacky CI/BI theology

Who were the Ancient Israelites? And What happened to the Ten Lost Tribes? From the Bible Unearthed: Archaelogy’s New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of its Sacred Texts: Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman.”*

.....How very insightful to go to a couple of antiChrist “jews” for your information; why hadn’t I thought of that?

”Finkelstein and Silberman believe that the Israelites were actually the Canaanites.”

.....Don’t look now, but the real Canaanites are trying to throw you off their path; is there anyone on this Christian forum that rails against something they might actually know about? I was going to answer point-by-point, but this nonsense is so pathetic, it doesn’t warrant further time; here’s a small hint for you... these antiChrist “jews” are lyig through their teeth, and you, in your presently unlearned state, are carrying there water; it is a “jew” lie that Our Christ was a “jew”... it is a “jew” lie that the OT has anything to do with the “jews”, save prophesying their complete and utter destruction at the end of this age; the first time they are mentioned, they are warring with Israel... perhaps if you’re going to come against something, you’ll at least read the Book for yourself, as opposed to running to a couple of “jewish” antiChrists, (who hate your white self, btw), to “explain" it for you...

.....You have lost any shred of credibility with the stupid premise of this thread, and your obvious ignorance of the subject matter; is this what passes for intellectualism at stormfront??

Okiereddust

2003-07-25 18:04 | User Profile

Originally posted by Patrick@Jul 25 2003, 16:46 * > From the Bible Unearthed: Archaelogy’s New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of its Sacred Texts: Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman.”*

.....How very insightful to go to a couple of antiChrist “jews” for your information; why hadn’t I thought of that?**

:lol: Hey, at least Friedric(h), (aka Darth FWI) is honest enough to acknowledge his sources, something most of the God baiters/haters/provocateurs here or elsewhere in the NA wing of WN don't.

friedrich braun

2003-07-25 23:46 | User Profile

OK:

Well, I'm here to learn.

However, it would seem that the "Saints" have the same problem as CI folks, i.e., there's just no scientific, historical, linguistic, geographic, archaelogical, etc. data to support their claims. I'm open-minded on all kinds of issues, but you have to offer evidence (preferably accompanied by a constellation of sources and links, besides the Good Book), if you want me to take you seriously.

"A Mormon anthropologist is facing excommunication after finding no genetic link between American Indians and the ancient Hebrews of Israel, questioning one of the central tenets of his church.

Thomas Murphy conducted a review of the existing scientific literature and concluded that the evidence points to the Asian origin of Indians, who scientists say migrated across the Bering Strait millennia ago. "There is no evidence an ancient group of Israelites made it to the Americas as it says in the Book of Mormon," he said."

[url=http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/rnb/archives/00001380.html]http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/...s/00001380.html[/url]

"The hope is that DNA research would link Native Americans to ancient Israelites, buttressing LDS beliefs in a way that has not been forthcoming from archaeological, linguistic, historical or morphological research," Murphy wrote in his academic paper, titled "Lamanite Genesis, Geology and Genetics."

...

"The paper was published last fall in "American Apocrypha: Essays on the Book of Mormon." Murphy also is a doctoral candidate at the University of Washington, where his dissertation work focuses on Mormon representations of Native Americans.

Any hopes the LDS church had of gaining credence through science have been dashed, Murphy wrote in the essay. "So far, DNA research lends no support to traditional Mormon beliefs about the origins of Native Americans. ... Latter-day Saints should not expect to find validation for the Book of Mormon in genetics."

Instead, Murphy reported, genetic research conclusively demonstrates the ancestors of Native Americans arrived in North America through migrations from Asia 7,000 to 50,000 years ago. "No support for Mormon beliefs linking American Indians to ancient Israelites is evident in the data."

Murphy also quotes Native American researcher Michael Crawford, a biological anthropologist from the University of Kansas, who wrote: "I don't think there is one iota of evidence that suggests a lost tribe from Israel made it all the way to the New World. It is a great story, slain by an ugly fact."

...

[url=http://www.mcjonline.com/news/03a/20030120c.shtml]http://www.mcjonline.com/news/03a/20030120c.shtml[/url]

Finally, let me add that although I have freely admitted my lack of extensive knowledge of CI theology, I do know the Bible quite well; I have actually taken the time to study it extensively.

Okiereddust

2003-07-26 00:44 | User Profile

Originally posted by friedrich braun@Jul 25 2003, 23:46 * *OK:

Well, I'm here to learn.

However, it would seem that the "Saints" have the same problem as CI folks, i.e., there's just no scientific, historical, linguistic, geographic, archaelogical, etc. data to support their claims. I'm open-minded on all kinds of issues, but you have to offer evidence (preferably accompanied by a constellation of sources and links, besides the Good Book), if you want me to take you seriously.** There is all sorts of biblical evidence to support the biblical account, although like any archeological data, the historical record is subject to differences of interpretation, disagreement, and ideological differences.

Generally it can be shown though that the biblical acccount is far better documented and aurthentical than any other account of antiquity.

Interestingly enough, I don't subscribe to it, but I borrowed a copy of the journal Biblical Archeology that contained an interview with this self-same Finkelstein you quote. I'll have to look it up for you.

**"A Mormon anthropologist is facing excommunication after finding no genetic link between American Indians and the ancient Hebrews of Israel, questioning one of the central tenets of his church.

Thomas Murphy conducted a review of the existing scientific literature and concluded that the evidence points to the Asian origin of Indians, who scientists say migrated across the Bering Strait millennia ago. "There is no evidence an ancient group of Israelites made it to the Americas as it says in the Book of Mormon," he said."

[url=http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/rnb/archives/00001380.html]http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/...s/00001380.html[/url]**

A Christian believes God has spoke and his record is revealed in his word, the Bible. He certainly does not believe though that everyone who has spoken on behalf of God is legitimate, or that all religious books are equally true, or true at all.

There are honest doubters. In general I've found though that those who have a problem with the Bible's and Christianities veracity have a preexisting ing personal or ideological bias. If you wish to pursue the matter and can shake your existing biases, I wish you success as I work with you. "Seek and Ye Shall Find".

friedrich braun

2003-07-26 00:50 | User Profile

OK:

Are you an orthodox Christian (Protestant, Catholic, or Orthodox) or a CI person?

Okiereddust

2003-07-26 01:00 | User Profile

*Originally posted by friedrich braun@Jul 26 2003, 00:50 * ** OK:

Are you an orthodox Christian (Protestant, Catholic, or Orthodox) or a CI person? **

CI? :rolleyes:

Orthodox Protestant.

Lady_America

2003-07-26 01:20 | User Profile

I get so embarrassed not knowing so much about the WN movement that I can't believe I ask the questions that I do. But....what does CI/BI mean?

Lady

Franco

2003-07-26 01:56 | User Profile

WinterMute -- heh, heh...

CI means Christian Identity. The idea that Whites are the true Israelites, and not....Them. The Klan is CI. So is Aryan Nations.

Ruffin

2003-07-26 02:08 | User Profile

wintermute, you meanie. :lol:

If you were a good Christian you'd help the lady discover her Identity. She's obviously sincere, though possibly British. Certainly not an Israelite.

golfball

2003-07-26 04:41 | User Profile

Actually, The Klan is composed of many protestant faiths. Myself, I am of old time gospel Baptist. I know that the Holy Bible is a book about the race of Adam and his descendants. I also understand the foundations of Christianity and I have no problems embracing the fact that Christianity is Israel and Israel, ( Not damned Jews, [John 8:44]) is the White race.

There are Methodists, Baptists, and other spiritually awakened, racially aware Christians that are in the Klan. If TD wants to label people C.I., just because TD wants to, well, that just goes to show the length of TD's understanding of those Christians that accept the Holy Bible as the literal Word of God.

God knows who I am and that is what counts. :D

C.I. has many benefits for Christians, just as the Old Time Gospel does. The best part is that you have to look for yourself. :th:

Texas Dissident

2003-07-26 10:24 | User Profile

Originally posted by golfball@Jul 25 2003, 23:41 * *If TD wants to label people C.I., just because TD wants to, well, that just goes to show the length of TD's understanding of those Christians that accept the Holy Bible as the literal Word of God. **

I do not label anyone CI because I want to, rather on the Scriptual understandings of 2000 years of historic Christian orthodoxy. On that basis, I denounce the doctrines of CI and label it as an aberrant cult.

But the good news is that even though we are all sinners, God's love and grace and Christ's work on the cross has provided the means whereby we can repent of our sins and ask his forgiveness, get baptized, receive the Holy Spirit and be assured of our eternal salvation. Not one of us is in and of ourselves worthy of this precious gift. It is solely due to the unbounding grace of God. I know it is almost impossible to imagine such a gift. Nevertheless, the literal word of God assures us it is true and only asks of us a leap of faith. Glory to God!

golfball

2003-07-26 14:06 | User Profile

*Originally posted by Texas Dissident@Jul 26 2003, 05:24 * ** ........ Nevertheless, the literal word of God assures us it is true and only asks of us a leap of faith. Glory to God! **

The best part is that you have to look for yourself. :D

Its in there! :)