← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · Madrid burns
Thread ID: 8430 | Posts: 53 | Started: 2003-07-25
2003-07-25 02:42 | User Profile
[url=http://heathenfront.org/ehf/articles]http://heathenfront.org/ehf/articles[/url]
The English Heathen Front (EHF) is a radical movement dedicated to the revival of militant folk consciousness in England.
Although dedicated to the Anglo-Saxon pre-Christian tradition, the EHF does not describe itself in narrow terms as Odinist or Asatruar. Its mission is broader and more ambitious. It is embraces ecological, tribal, political and spiritual perspectives.
For that reason, we describe the EHF as an Odalist group. The fundamental idea behind Odalism (from the Norse Oþila and Old English adal) is a return to primordial Englishness, the essence of Anglo-Saxon man and his culture. Through Odalism, we aim to resurrect Anglo-Saxon values, morals and our tribal worldview. We will revive the positive characteristics of the Anglo-Saxon people, those characteristics of the sons and daughters of Hengist and Horsa eroded by centuries of Judaeo-Christian oppression.
We believe the time is ripe for the EHF to undertake this historic task. We consider ourselves ââ¬Åmen among the ruinsââ¬Â, denizens of a sick and decadent society. Global capital, consumerism, multiculturalism, the European superstate, the cult of political correctness and the machinations of the liberal elite ââ¬â all these conspire to undermine the pride and the ancient West Germanic identity of the English folk. The cynical break up of the United Kingdom ââ¬â a settlement which denies the English their rightful voice -- has given us our mandate for action.
Yet, the EHF is not a movement that seeks direct political power nor does it wish to dissipate its energies in worthless parliamentary bickering. Our mission is higher and more noble. It is nothing less than the restoration of the sacred bond between English blood and English soil. Why? Because we believe that from that bond everything else must flow.
Nature lies at the heart of our worldview. Germanic man has always lived in harmony with nature, even our gods are immanent aspects of nature. Accordingly, we regard the exploitation and destruction of nature ââ¬â sanctioned by the Judaeo-Christian tradition -- as nothing less than an assault on our Anglo-Saxon folk soul. Our ecological commitment is radical ââ¬â modelled on the monism of Ernst Haeckel. It means we view nature and our role within nature through a Social Darwinist lens. We champion strength, struggle and self-overcoming. We also see ourselves as part of a continuum ââ¬â ecological, tribal, political and spiritual ââ¬â in which it is our duty to honour our ancestors and in so doing, celebrate that mystical chain of being linking the living with the dead.
This means that we regard it as our mission not just to reverence the soil, the sky and the seas of our native land but all living things. Not just plants and animals but also men. For that reason, we adopt an ethnoplural stance arguing for the preservation of our own unique biotope, that of English blood on English soil. This native ecology we trace back to the work of Rolf Gardiner, twentieth-century father of the English greens.
Politically, we see ourselves as inheritors of the idealism of Britainââ¬â¢s pre-WW2 Nordic League with its emphasis on folkish self-detemination and the aristocratic principle. Our history we draw from the work of the great Victorian Teutonists ââ¬â John Kemble, EA Freeman, JR Green and William Stubbs.
Underpinning all of this are our spiritual beliefs, our ancient English faith. We place Woden whose son Ing sired the Ingvi (Ingvaeones), the primaeval English tribes, at the centre of our philosophy. We believe that direct contact with untamed nature and the performance of holy rites within ancient sanctuaries can lead to an enhanced consciousness of our Anglo-Saxon folk soul. It can help reveal our own nature and that of the nature we inhabit. This is one important way to regain what our people lost under the scourge of Judaeo-Christianity.
Our priority therefore we must be to win back our old sanctuaries. We must do this in co-operation with this countryââ¬â¢s other indigenous faith groups such as the Odinic Rite, Wodenââ¬â¢s Folk and Odinshof. For detailed knowledge of our tribal traditions, we must look to organisations such as the English Companions, Angelseaxisce Ealdriht and the publishers at Anglo-Saxon Books.
The EHF offers England the chance of an ecological, tribal, political and spiritual renaissance. We do so conscious of the heavy responsibility this entails and the fanatical dedication required if we are succeed in our holy mission. May Woden and the English folk be with us!
2003-07-26 23:14 | User Profile
Despite my fascination with pre-Christian pagan tradtions of Europe, I'll just remain a devout Christian. :D
2003-07-31 21:18 | User Profile
Madrid burns,
There is also a Vinlandic(American) Heathen Front.
**The Vinlandic Heathen Front Welcome Kinsman!
Welcome to the internet home of the VLHF, newly reorganized and ready to give the United States a cultural axis around which to organize the renewal of our traditional heritage.
We stand against the raging tides of so-called progress and uphold the banner of tradition, of sanity, and of spiritual fortitude. We strive in our daily tasks to lay the foundations for the creation of a genuine heathen folk here in the new world, where it is needed most as an alternative to the wasteland of consumerism and nihilism that afflicts the entire Western world.
For those of you visiting us for the first time, you will find that surfing this site as well as visiting our main domain (heathenfront.org) will offer a lot of insight into our view of life.
The Vinlandic Heathen Front exists, quite simply, to present a viable alternative to the secularism and materialism of the decadent modern world. This alternative is neither purely political nor spiritual but an inseparable synthesis thereof. We seek a complete reconnection to our natural pattern of life on every level of existence. This is not merely an intellectual or physical endeavour but rather a process of collective spiritual ascendancy that must begin with the self-mastery of each individual member.
Though we are a Germanocentric order, we welcome all like-minded individuals of wholly European descent who reflect intelligence and character. If you would like to join us in our struggle or simply want to learn more about our perspective, please e-mail or write to the geographically appropriate representative as listed on our membership page.
Hail Odin!
The Vinlandic(American) Heathen Front [url=http://heathenfront.org/vlhf/e/]http://heathenfront.org/vlhf/e/[/url]**
And the main site:
**Allgermanische Heidnische Front
Our future & people
The purpose of the AHF today is to be an institution for the development and reconstruction of our integral culture(1). This means that we seek to re-unite our peoples historical and inherited morals and ethics with the current development of our world. The problem, as we see it, is that we are loosing whatever we had of identity to the ever increasing cultural hegemony of the pop-culture, a phenomena that we regard as quite contra productive and devastating for the worlds cultural heritage. With some success, the task for saving inherited culture is carried out in other parts of the world, but it does require devotion and interest.
Our goal to try to influence the path of our culture may seem an overwhelming task, but influential movements have existed before, and still do today, as for instance the movement against globalization; ATTAC.
As any new born movement has to do, we work close to the ground, on the grass root level of society. Our goals can only be reached by enlightenment...
[url=http://www.heathenfront.org/]http://www.heathenfront.org/[/url] **
2003-07-31 22:47 | User Profile
I am not familiar with the groups mentioned here but off hand they sound encouraging. I am an Odalist as many of you may know but my particular kind is a local creation started in the 1860s with a strong foundation in local history/tradition.
While I am in favour of promoting the traditional religions of Europa I am very much in favour of DeBenoist's thoughts on spiritualism. In the end, those of us that are serious about Eurocentrism must promote a folkish vision that over arches and is open to traditionalistic Christians & Heathens as well as those not incline to relgion because the simple fact is tha we all lose by placing theology above national renewal or pretending that renewal can occure without the support of those that share our narrowly conceived theologies.
2003-07-31 22:58 | User Profile
triskelion,
Yes very true.
**In the end, those of us that are serious about Eurocentrism must promote a folkish vision that over arches and is open to traditionalistic Christians & Heathens as well as those not incline to relgion because the simple fact is tha we all lose by placing theology above national renewal or pretending that renewal can occure without the support of those that share our narrowly conceived theologies. **
2003-07-31 23:07 | User Profile
Your nation is an extension of your family. Christianity taken out of its European context is an alien religion. Only when married to peoples of European heritage it becomes "ours". I think if Tex stops and thinks about it, he'll realize that he earlier statement that he put his religion above his people wasn't the true reflection of his position.
2003-08-01 08:34 | User Profile
Originally posted by madrussian@Jul 31 2003, 17:07 * I think if Tex stops and thinks about it, he'll realize that he earlier statement that he put his religion above his people wasn't the true reflection of his position.*
Many Catholic nationalists take the stance that folk and faith are indivisible therefore preservation of one's folk is an act of faith in itself.
2003-08-01 15:54 | User Profile
Yes, but the pope wears a yarmulke.
Odalism embraces certain forms of Christianity, but speaking from a viewpoint of philosophical analysis, Christianity will never do white people favors until it loses its absolutist, ego-based morality.
2003-08-01 17:11 | User Profile
I would suggest to the last poster that most Catholics would take offense with your remark that the "pope wears a yarmulke" and nothing is to be gained from offending conservative, well intentioned Christians but much can be lost by such comments. I have zero interest in proselytizing for my chosen spiritualism given the destruction facing the Occident for the simple reason that if the forces of national destruction are not reversed all forms of Occidental spiritualism are doomed to extinction. My personal objections to numerous aspects of Christian dogma will not prevent me from my continued efforts to forge ties between Christians, Heathens and secular folkish proponents as no other alternative exists at this late stage.
I would prefer the company of a radical, folkish Catholic, protestant or Orthodox to a deracinated animist that claims to follow my ancestral beliefs in a heartbeat and those that care about our children's future should do likewise no matter what faith they follow. Likewise I would much prefer to live under a Carlist style Catholic theocracy then what currently passes for democracy should such an unlikely prospect become tenable. As promoters of Occidental renewal we have an obligation to our ancestors, our decedents and the folkways we cherish to do all within our power to lead those who share our various faiths away Modernity/universalism and it's degenerating effects upon our faiths what ever they may be towards a genuine and Eurocentric religious restoration that helps safeguard our nations.
2003-08-01 17:36 | User Profile
"would take offense with your remark that the "pope wears a yarmulke"
.....Even if it's the truth? He does wear one, and if the truth off ends one, it sounds as though the problem is theirs...
2003-08-02 01:29 | User Profile
I agree with triskelion that bashing Christianity does nothing to help us. As a [url=http://www.byzcath.org/Faith-and-Worship/Who-Are-Byzantine-Catholics.htm]Byzantine Catholic[/url] I know that we can be just as folkish and nationalistic as any pagan!
The Byzantine Catholic Church was always at the forefront of Ukrainian nationalism. It always stood up for the Ukrainian national identity and against the tyranny of Bolshevism. Both in the Ukraine and among the disapora(which I am), the church served as the perfect tool of preserving our heritage!
The same was true with the Orthodox Church in Russia! Dostoyevsky(a staunch Russian nationalist) claimed that one could not be a true Russian without being Orthodox! Again, the Orthodox church was at the forefront in the struggle for Russia's national identity under Bolshevism. Both in Russia and among Russian disapora. The Orthodox Church was(and still is) a major center for Russian nationalism. St. Ioann of Kronsdat for example was a major proponent of Russian nationalism in the late 19th century.
Same can be said for the Polish people. Their identity is heavily rooted in Roman Catholicism. The Church was also a center for Polish nationalism among Polish immigrants in America. The church also led the fight against Communist rule.
I've noticed that Pagan nationalism is often supported by the elites while Christian nationalism finds more support among the lower classes.
The attempt, for instance, by William Butler Yeats and others to popularize the myths of the pagan Celtic past was rejected by the Irish Catholic majority, who prefer St. Patrick to Cuchulainn as their national spiritual icon.
Same was true in Greece, where nationalism for the last two centuries has been divided between the neo-Hellenism of the secular elite and the Orthodox, religious nationalism of much of the population.
I have nothing against Pagan nationalists personally(only theological objections). I know why many nationalists are attracted to it, for it fascinates even me! But much of what Pagans claim are characteristic of their faith(devotion to the folk, warrior virtues, and sacrifice) can be all found in the Christian faith as well. This is especially true in Eastern Christianity(Eastern Catholic/Eastern Orthodox).
I also have nothing personal against atheist/secular nationalists because I too was once one, but they do need to realize the huge influence religion had in forming our national identities!
Mussolini was an atheist, yet still gave support to the Catholic Church cause he knew how much Italian identity was forged by it. Himmler was anti-Catholic, yet celebrated the heroism of Germany's Catholic warrior-priests the Teutonic Knights.
What I am opposed to is the tendency of Pagan/secular nationalists on this forum and elsewhere to bash the Christian religion as un-European and/or worthless to our peoples' destiny. Being Pagan/secularist doesn't necessarily mean you have to be anti-Christian(except on a theological basis). I know many Slavic pagans who are defended the Orthodox Church against incrochments by the Roman Catholic Church into Russia. In their minds, at least Orthodoxy was the Russian form of christianity.
If Pagans/secularists have a theological difference with Christians, then can you please debate it in a civil manner.
2003-08-02 01:44 | User Profile
Hello Patrick, it would be thruthful to say that the thing that the pope wears on his head looks like a yarmulke but we both know that it is something differant. In any case, as much as I dispise what Catholicism (and Christianity as a whole) have become it seems very obvious that Occidental renewal can't occur by actively driving Christians away. Politics and cultural warfare is all about building coalitions so I will forego any consideration of theological purity until such time as we are no longer facing total destruction as a race.
2003-08-02 07:55 | User Profile
If memory serves the Heathens had a very short innings in England - approx 250 years after the exit of the Romans until 650 AD or so - by that time the Anglo Saxons were pretty much Christianized.
Those naughty Vikings are another story.
2003-08-02 23:39 | User Profile
I regret to be contrary but the last post was incorect. Heathenism existed in England for quite some time after 650c.e. although it is true that theocratic terror did manage to slowly drive it under ground and then totally destroy it by roughly the 1100s. One should recall however that Heathan influences upon Christianity has been very significant and long lasting but I likely won't go into details as don't want to start a flame war. If anyone is interested in the matter send me a message and i'll recomend several fine texts on the matter.
2003-08-03 01:50 | User Profile
**I regret to be contrary but the last post was incorect. Heathenism existed in England for quite some time after 650c.e. **
As I said, if memory serves.
I wrote that post without doing any specific research (it was almost 2 am!) but am happy to stand corrected in detail if not in general.
However, I would venture to suggest that missionary activity was well underway by AD 600 and that by 700 conversion of the Anglo-Saxon population was largely complete. Whatever paganism still existed by that time must have been largely underground.
The situation changed dramatically with the Viking incursions after 850. In those areas that came under Scandinavian control, largely to the northwest, northeast, and east it is clear that the incomers did continue to practice their ancient religions.
Even here, however, with intermarriage and assimilation the new settlers had converted by the 10th century (in England, Scotland is another matter). Certainly that process would have been accelerated by the annexation of York and Northumbria under Aethelstan after 927.
So I think it is true to say that, as a practical matter, paganism did die out by roughly 650 among the Anglo-Saxons, but did return with the Vikings for about 100 years after 850.
I have not encountered any source indicating that paganism was still practiced in England as late 1100. Please elaborate.
2003-08-03 03:38 | User Profile
I do have high hopes for the Temple of Set (very large segment of Khemitic culture). I believe that they represent a hotbed of anti-semitism, perhaps even larger and more vehement than VNN, but those Setians are masters of the poker face, and I can't prove any of this. It's just a hunch - which gains evidence literally every week. I'll keep everyone here posted.
Oh mighty wintry and muted one:
Khemitic refers to old school Negro supremacists of the "Black peebles done invented everything dat white peebles done stole" confession. The adherents of the Temple of Set are an offshoot and rival faction of the thoroughly kosher Church of Satan originally founded by Head Heeb Anton Lavey (nee Levy - I'm sure Franco can provide the relevant rat's nest of links on the Beelzebubbulahs). I suspect that these duelling Luciferitzim are something less than "antisemitic".
2003-08-03 05:38 | User Profile
I am presently surprised that this thread has been a civil and polite one given the incendiary subject matter and the fact that this board caters to numerous theocratic cranks. Perhaps something positive is happening with respect to the trends here.
Hello Wintermute, it is of course always good to hear from you. I very much share your view that of the various Christian sects the various Eastern Orthodox have the most to offer those wishing for Occidental renewal. As some her know, I have been cultivating allies for various projects in the Baltic and Slavic nations for a while now and I presently view the prospects for National Revolution to be best in those areas. I note that while Heathens are a large portion of the activists over there plenty of good projects are also being enacted by Orthodox NR proponents of various types while the active Protestants have done precious little of substance just as they have else where in the Occidental world. Obviously I am not attempting to start some sectarian squabble here but I do hope that I can see some serious recommendations from all Christians on how to make their various sects less hostile to Occidental restoration.
While I have my grievous concerns about the NA I feel that most criticisms here are over the top although I agree with WM's comments on that organization with respect to the matter of Christians.
As to OTO, the Temple of Set, Wicca and all those psychopathic Luciferian/Satanic sects that babble about the "sinister dialectic" I, and every folkish Heathen I have ever met, hold such groups in disdain. I don't want to bore and outrage the sentiments of the Christians here so I will not cover such thing here. Some that is interested in my critiques of those groups can drop me a line however.
With respect to my friend Dan Dare I will simply say that while you are correct about the general timing of the destruction of Pagan Celtic England the olds persisted for quite some time (roughly the 1100s) without societal recognition. Such holdovers were rural based (which is the etymology of the term Heathen) and popular inspite of the grisly consequences of being found out. If you are interested in the matter let me know.
2003-08-03 08:30 | User Profile
Originally posted by prozak+Aug 1 2003, 09:54 -->
QUOTE (prozak @ Aug 1 2003, 09:54 ) Odalism embraces certain forms of Christianity* I wouldn't say so at all. could you please explain how you mean this? I don't see how being exclusive to ideas innovated only by those within your racial-cultural sphere has anything to do with the 'love your neighbor as family at all cost' universal sufferage of the new testament.
**QUOTE** (perun1201 @ Aug 1 2003, 19:29 ) I agree with triskelion that bashing Christianity does nothing to help us.** except as an ends in itself if Christianity in itself is seen as a problem. (and this is not meaning the contemporary political and moralistic bent that goes with it today, only the belief structure)
**QUOTE** (perun1201 @ Aug 1 2003, 19:29 ) I know that we can be just as folkish and nationalistic as any pagan!** not quite. sure, you can be folkish, but never purely so. you will always adore an ideal comprised originally by foreigners, you will always take elements of alien peoples to your heart as something you believe your reality is of. it will always be somewhere else, there will never be an indepentant autonomy from you to your culture, you will be looking outside it for inspiration and spirituality at some level always, where nothing outside your culture is regarded. it will never be exclusive.
**QUOTE** (perun1201 @ Aug 1 2003, 19:29 ) I also have nothing personal against atheist/secular nationalists because I too was once one, but they do need to realize the huge influence religion had in forming our national identities!** the only true aspect of national identity is what it is itself. certainly original innovations came about exclusive to this or that particular culture after it's basis was made upon Christianity, just as Martin Luther did for the Germans, but the basis is not pure, it is just German made ideas on top of old Jewish/alien spirituality.
**QUOTE** (perun1201 @ Aug 1 2003, 19:29 ) Mussolini was an atheist, yet still gave support to the Catholic Church cause he knew how much Italian identity was forged by it. Himmler was anti-Catholic, yet celebrated the heroism of Germany's Catholic warrior-priests the Teutonic Knights.** true. the strength it had was very political into the modern age, it cannot be ignored. it has become thoroughly European because of the strata of ideas superimposed over it. but at it's heart, it can never be European, or anything but middle-eastern. certain things, like Chrismas, and certain ceremonies of the Catholic mass, also have roots in Greek, Roman or Germanic practices, but it will always be put toward and in honour to, something not fully culturally what they are themselves.
**QUOTE** (perun1201 @ Aug 1 2003, 19:29 ) What I am opposed to is the tendency of Pagan/secular nationalists on this forum and elsewhere to bash the Christian religion as un-European and/or worthless to our peoples' destiny. Being Pagan/secularist doesn't necessarily mean you have to be anti-Christian(except on a theological basis).** but I believe it has only taken our destiny from us. the only way it can help our identity is if we quit giving our cultural & moralistic achievements over to it. only as a part of our history, as a period of subversion, if we can overcome it; then and only then will it have been of some value to us as a face of adversity and darkness, when we forgot what we were. only things created by us define what we are, as we create ourselves.
**QUOTE** (perun1201 @ Aug 1 2003, 19:29 ) I know many Slavic pagans who are defended the Orthodox Church against incrochments by the Roman Catholic Church into Russia. In their minds, at least Orthodoxy was the Russian form of christianity.** I too would agree that as perferable, but perferable and 100% unique as an individual culture are two seperate things. one would rather drink dirty water than mud, but a clear glass of perfectly clean water is the most healthy thing to the physical body. just as the most healthy thing for the beauty of different culture is what has arisen from that culture in & of itself.
**QUOTE** (perun1201 @ Aug 3 2003, 08:32 ) So we can never purely be folkish? This is Bull and you know it! Many of the greatest nationalists who ever lived and even died for their countries were Christians. That by itself makes them folkish! So a Pagan nationalist's sacrifices for his nations count more than those of a Chrisitan nationalist? ** fighting for something subjective like a Folk, and being Folkish (as what is *of* the folk) are two different & seperate things.
**QUOTE** (perun1201 @ Aug 3 2003, 08:32 ) If this is true, why did Europe's national identities reach its greatest heights while under Christianity? Once again, you submit to a subjective world-view, that whats good for my folk is that only from my folk. My view is whatever is good for my folk is what will help enhance its identity, whatever the origin. Sacrifice for your people, heroism, courgae, and other virtues are universal. No one people has a monopoly on them.** only a spiritual monopoly. Europe's national identities reached it's greatest heights under Christianity because Christianity was the last religion to take them over, and time moves forward not backward. whatever is your folk is your folk. whatever is from another folk used by your folk makes your folk less a full folk. it doesn't matter how easy it made your life-quality by believing it's ways; thats how it's like Communism. because at the expense of being yourself you get benefits. true advancement is from differences, more differences, more opposites, more dualities, the more energy & manifestation, and potential for moving forward there is. if everything came from nothingness, then all things are going toward complexity unto infinitity and not back to nothingness.
**QUOTE** (perun1201 @ Aug 3 2003, 08:32 ) Christianity is a refution of Judaism, just as Buddhism is a refution of Hinduism.** none of which are Slavic. or Romanic, or Germanic. or European at all. so why consider them? if a refution of paganism comes from the culture which created paganism to begin with, then that is folkish.
**QUOTE** (perun1201 @ Aug 3 2003, 08:32 ) Again, you argue from a subjective point of view that which is good for my folk can only originate from my folk. I totally disagree with that! Foreign influences can have positive influences on a folk, if they are applied to suit the spirit of the Folk. This is especcially true with Eastern Christianity, which modifies itself to suit the individual national conditions. Orthodoxy in Greece is not 100% the same as Orthodoxy in Russia.** true, I agree that you put things very cultural of yourselves into your own brand of christianity, and that is folkish. but giving your praise to St. Michael (a hebrew name) or Jesus, is not. you can today, take all the unique innovations you made for your brand out of it's Christian context, and apply them to a new Paganism based on your old Paganism. and you would be moving forward, not backward, and with your own unique racial/cultural pride. not relying on another spiritual way. people believe Christianity is truth because people came to people who came from the middle-east and showed Christianity to you, it was a completely materialist, subjective circumstance, based in the three dimensional physical realm. it has nothing to do with real spirituality which comes from within a closed and individual section of one's cultural sphere, not tied to any circumstance except the circumstance by which that spirituality comes to relate to itself.
**QUOTE** (perun1201 @ Aug 3 2003, 08:32 ) Well for the past 2000 years it has been an European institution. Before 1500, Europe and Christendom were inseperable. Again a subjective viewpoint!** for 10,000's of years of human evolution in Europe, becoming different on our own, we were followed by our own thoughts alone. true, any number of intermixture have happened before recorded history, but within the context of history things are fixed to this or that people as it is written down. as long as things are kept as pure as they can be, we can create individual peoples with individual cultures. otherwise we simply are not.
**QUOTE** (perun1201 @ Aug 3 2003, 08:32 ) So universal truths are compatible with national characters, and in fact often give more expression to the national character. In fact Christian tradition holds that God apoints guardian angels to watch over each nation. The emergence of separate nations was ordained by God as part of his plan for humanity to spread out and populate the world.** the belief itself of different angels to different nations is something held by an individual nation (the hebrew nation) and has no cultural connection to the unique belief of others. universal truths, when held by all nations, lessen the national character of the nation as being a seperate, profound & novel character in comparison to the other nations.
**QUOTE** (perun1201 @ Aug 3 2003, 08:32 ) Traditional Catholic social teachings holds that stable societies are founded on common ethnic/racial ties(the folk). So theres nothing in traditional Christianity that is incompatible with folkish nationalism, if anything it makes it more universal(in that all stables societies should be based on common ethnic/racial ties) as opposed to simply saying that our one society should be based on our common racial/ethnic ties. As Pope Pius XIII saids > **No matter how well such a universal state is composed it can never provide proper care for the citizens of the world as natural law requires.ÃÂ There must be independent and sovereign states.ÃÂ Those states must be composed by the rules of natural law.ÃÂ They have ideals and a purpose all their own.ÃÂ They have, so to say, a personality which makes the citizens different in each state.ÃÂ The esprit de corps of the Japanese differs from that of the Chinese.ÃÂ The esprit de corps of the Germans differ from that of the Italians.ÃÂ It is a common and necessary way people want to conduct themselves. ** > **Our Lord Jesus Christ was born at a time when there was a one world government under Caesar.ÃÂ His Church was birthed during the same era. By the directions and divine assistance of the Church that One World Government ended, and the Christian social order with sovereign states filled the earth.ÃÂ Once again, if the world generally becomes Catholic the slip into the slavery of the now encroaching New World Order of the One World Government can be stopped, and once again sovereign states can fill the world.ÃÂ In that form of civil order God ordained that men work out their eternal salvation, and that is their one and only reason for being on this earth.ÃÂ ** [url=http://www.truecatholic.org/pope/condemnationsbypius13.htm]Condemnation of the United Nations Organization[/url] Heres even a recent speech by John Paul II about Europe's National Christian heritage. [url=http://www.exilemm.com/e-sub-johnpaul.shtml]http://www.exilemm.com/e-sub-johnpaul.shtml[/url] Then here talks about Christian accomplishments to Europe. [url=http://www.probe.org/docs/threat.html]http://www.probe.org/docs/threat.html[/url]** the thing about the Roman Empire was that it never coericed anyone to chance over to worship Jove or Mercury. if they asked for tithe and taxes, it did not detact from the culture, except in maybe forcing a form of foreign captial & currency upon them. so I'm not saying that was any good. however modern Rome (christian Rome) simply wants to perserve itself as 'number one' in the national consciousness of everyone by pandering to it, that does not mean it has a national connection at all.
**QUOTE** (Texas Dissident @ Aug 4 2003, 00:33 )
**QUOTE** (perun1201 @ Aug 4 2003, 12:43 ) Oh yes we Christians are such cowards! Jesus was a coward for willingly dying on the cross for the sake of humanity's salvation. When St. Peter learned he was about to be crucified in Rome, he fled at first. But then he decided to turn around and meet his fate, yes he was a coward too.** he chose 'willingly' to die? or was PUT TO DEATH by rome? st. peter was afraid of living in fear, and chose virtual suicide.
**QUOTE** (perun1201 @ Aug 4 2003, 21:13 ) So if a Jew saids the world is round, your folk will believe the world is flat? If a German saids day is day and night is night, then the French are free to think that day is night and night is day. If the Russian saids that true is true and false is false, than the American can think wrong is right and right is wrong. Are you seriously advocating something like this? Sounds like you are.** true, but everything you create here is not fact. no jew has ever religiously espoused the world as flat. no gaulish 'frank' has ever had in their spirituality any belief saying that 'day is night and night is day', if so, their evolved senses would have precieved them that way. Germanics believe the universe came into being by the realm of infinite activitity (Muspell) having a contradiction with a realm of infinite inactivity (Nifelhel). in a void of absolute nothingness, to stay static (read; inactive) is to define itself as being a contact other than negatively-existing. this contradiction gave rise to existence.... to other cultures, they stand by the fact that the universe was preexistent. it is realitive to perception and where one focus' on, they are equally truthful, objective, as science points to all these facts, but science too, is folkish when in realitivity to the folk only.
**QUOTE** (perun1201 @ Aug 4 2003, 21:13 ) And where does populism claim that there can be no elites? ** where did I claim this? read my posts.
**QUOTE** (perun1201 @ Aug 4 2003, 21:13 ) Nicolo Machiavelli said that no matter how powerful ones armies, the ruler needs the goodwill of the masses. Otherwise he has no helpers in times of adversity. So any elite must be representatives of the will of the masses. Interestingly, Machiavelli glorified paganism yet still believed that a Prince must cultivate the Christian faith even if only to gain support of his people(who were most likely to be devout Christians). So even a pagan like Machiavelli knew that Christianity was a force to be reckon with and that one should seek the best terms possible.** Hitler believed the same, and stayed with the Catholic church until the end. Mussolini was originally a writer for a Socialist newsletter, and many times showed his Atheism, but later adopted the church... but a true spiritualist, would revive this need. it is not something that can be done by a politician.
**QUOTE** (perun1201 @ Aug 4 2003, 21:13 ) Be good to read Machiavelli, or will this violate the principles of your folk by reading the works of an Italian? What a good way to miss out on some important knowlegde!!!!** If I believed I must cut myself from the outside world to stay within 'folkishness' I wouldn't even be having this conversation with you. I believe you can study everything, but only adopt what is not foreign where there is no need to, and slowly create everything that is unique for the sphere of my folk; at least, to be Folkish. if I did not care about being truely folkish, I would not do this. but this is what being Folkish means.
**QUOTE** (perun1201 @ Aug 4 2003, 21:13 ) Pushkin represented the soul of the Russian people but really he didn't represent it? The f*uck are talking about? What you just said didn't make sense and further proves to me your arrogant view that you know more about other folks soul, which in a way contradicts your own positions that one can only truely know and learn from their own folk. You claim that you don't know the Russian soul more than anybody else but yet seem to know when Pushkin truely represented it or not. Sorry but you keep contradicting yourself here. ** no, I know exactly what I am talking about. any Christian is not folkish unless they are Jewish and believe in Jesus as king of the jews, it is a branch of Judaism. Unique ideas can be created from any folk and put toward Christianity, but it is only impure Christianity for a Jew, or impure spirituality for the inidividual using it who is not a Jew.
**QUOTE** (perun1201 @ Aug 4 2003, 21:13 ) You also seem to show that you don't really know a damn thing about the expression of a folk's soul, except it must be Pagan(which is very narrow and feeble minded). So Beethoven didn't express the German soul because he wasn't Pagan, or how about Wagner as well(did you know he wasn't Pagan either)? Or how about Goethe, he didn't express the German folk because he wan't Pagan?** of course they did, but they were not purely folkish because they took something to their heart which was completely foreign. they based their lives around something alien!, what did not arise from this alienization was very much folkish; everything within the bounds of their christian faith however, was.
**QUOTE** (perun1201 @ Aug 4 2003, 21:13 ) What nonsense is this? Norse mythology also had the notion of your soul going to the underworld when you died, except for those killed in battle. In that case your soul went to Valhalla. But again, its still; the same concept of your soul going to the place of dead. You're just babbling here. Name one religion that doesn't have the notion of your soul going someplace after you die, go ahead find it! The closest example is Buddhism, yet even it has the notion of continual reincarnation untill you've reached nirvana.** and you said all souls were equal to Christianity. that was the point to that statement. Valhalla is simply eternal strife and eternal work at progression, not a static paradise. Helheim is stagnation and fatality of fruitation. it's different for all cultures. we believe in eternal evolution, just as Nietzsche came through and showed such Germanic archetypes as.
**QUOTE** (perun1201 @ Aug 4 2003, 21:13 ) If you bother to fully read what I wrote, you would notice that I said that Herder developed the notions of **MODERN** nationalism. I know full well that nationalism existed before Herder, but it was Herder who helped develop it into a **MODERN** political force. Maybe the **bold** capitalized letters will help you read properly!** same difference. it should be obvious that modern society is full of sick internationalistic ideas. of course, it seems when any western culture thinks of nationalism, they think of Germany rather than themselves, this is why, placing yourself out of your own 'shoes' and into another.
**QUOTE** (perun1201 @ Aug 4 2003, 21:13 ) For once we agree on something. Herder was primarily thinking from a German point of view, although his theories had more universal connotations. Herder believed that ALL peoples had their volksgeist(peoples spirit) and that each nation should do well to fully develop it. So even Herder believed nationalism had some form of universal appeal, which you seem to deny(which also denies the very notion of nationalism). You claim to be a folkish nationalist, yet in many ways denies that nationalism even exists.** I do not deny nationalism exists, just that it cannot be the same for all people, or even partly the same for any Vital & Healthily Individualized people. seperation of universalism is what creates greater amounts of unique manifestation, the more manifestion, the more advancement there is capable of being. jews seem to be nationalistic by living as a symbiont over outside groups of people than their own for example. some peoples by their ability to war, other's, to reconcile. etc etc. each of those individual things exists differently in each people as well. wars have certain meanings to some cultures, (i.e. jihad) that it doesn't to others. peace is seen in different terms. etc.
**QUOTE** (perun1201 @ Aug 4 2003, 21:13 ) However, his theories were primarily of a German type, which is why foreign nationalists had to apply his theories to their own conditions. They knew their people had a volksgeist and it was their duty to fully develop it. So this does prove that there are universal principles even when concerning the folk.** it depends, stealing ideas is not folkish, changing them away and making new to completely to fill an empty void that is necessary for advancement, with an alternate concept. is another thing altogether. I agree paritially, and we probably see it in much the same way, but if something is not unique enough to not be traced back to a foreign innovator, then it is not completely folkish.
**QUOTE** (perun1201 @ Aug 4 2003, 21:13 ) I guess I could get into the influence of Herder on Russia's Folkish nationalist thinkers, but you probally will just denounce them as Christian traitors who didn't fully express the will of their folk because of their Christian faith, yet at the same time deny that you know the Russian soul yet still think you know whats a true Russian folkish nationalist is supposed to be.** assume whatever you want about my future argument... as long as their ideas were not tainted by Christian learnings (albeit, Christian learnings, can be European ideas originally, like The Rapture, and be called Christian in name, but have no roots as Christianity originally does) or any foreign learnings, they are folkish.
**QUOTE** (perun1201 @ Aug 4 2003, 22:11 ) > **he chose 'willingly' to die? or was PUT TO DEATH by rome? ** Actually it was the Jews who pressured Rome to put Jesus to death. Pilate really saw no reason to crucify him. Yet even before that Jesus could've stop Judas from betraying him, but Jesus refused to violate Judas's freedom to choose his path in life. Jesus did willfully die for the sins of humanity, and be willing to do it again even to save just one soul. In fact Eastern Christianity teaches that Jesus could've gotten off the cross should he so wanted, but choose to die. Thats why most Eastern portraits of Jesus on the cross make it look like as if Jesus if about to jump off the cross. I find it funny that you and other anti-Christian buy into the Jewish myth that Jesus was a Jew, when the Jews themselves often deny it. They often joke about how Jesus was really the bastard child of a Roman legionary who raped Mary.** and you were there to see this for yourself? or you just read a story about it? how is it you know 'jesus's' mind so well and his willingness? no one needs to die for me but me.
**QUOTE** (perun1201 @ Aug 4 2003, 22:11 ) I guess you didn't have the guts to trash the heroism of Boris, Gleb and Evgeni Rodionov. Maybe their examples refuted your accusation that Christians are cowards! You just went after the ones that were supposedly easier to trash, how BRAVE of you!** I only speak that of which I know. or have read, but then I make certain you can ony speak of it within the context to which it is presented to you.
**QUOTE** (perun1201 @ Aug 4 2003, 22:11 ) > ** I don't complain because I have anything wrong with disposal of the weak, but rather that I still exist, A European With Pagan blood. ** First off did you mean a Pagan with European blood? That would make more sense. Pagans are not born, they're made. Same is true for anyother religion.** my blood is Heathen because those with my blood gave birth to the Heathen spirit.
**QUOTE** (perun1201 @ Aug 4 2003, 22:11 ) Now about disposing of the weak, if they were weak why were they often stoic in the face of death. This impressed even the most devout Pagans about how brave they were.** blind, mad, ignorant. and how it's percieved, it could be for any reason one faces death. but when death comes, it is by weakness of the flesh.
**QUOTE** (perun1201 @ Aug 4 2003, 22:11 ) Is it possible that the reputation of that dead man Jesus and his followers martyred meant more to people than the reputations of the Pagan gods? Is that just possible? Or can't you understand that? ** but what is folkish about him to me? reputations can be full of human actions, but have no spiritual meaning
**QUOTE** (perun1201 @ Aug 4 2003, 22:11 ) As I stated elsewhere, if they were weak, why take pride in it? Thats like trying to bragg about how strong and brave you are for mugging and killing an old woman. Real heroism! Although that sounds more like the psychology of an insecure bully than that of a true hero.** why praise weakness? what you focus on is what expands. I want a strong humanity, not a humanity that exists because of weakness and love of the ideals weakness has stood for. pride is a natural instinct for this reason.
**QUOTE** (perun1201 @ Aug 4 2003, 22:11 ) > ** and their attacks were offenses. they tried to destroy us, and have not yet uprooted us. ** Yeah just like your communists brothers tried to wipe us out but we stood firm. Oh yes shall I tell you how the Christian churches were influential in preserving folk traditions and reviving folkish nationalism? I've already did, but you don't seem to listen and understand that one can be Christian and folkish. Shall I talk about how many Communists were very much interested in paganism and glorified aspects of it? ** I believe you can be 'folkish' to a degree and Christian, but not 100% so. I've said this before. everyone has been interested in everything, from atheists being interested in the succession to the Papal throne, to Stalin being interested in Hitler's racial nationalism, to Satanists being envious of the Christian god's power. it just matters what is novel & unique to any-give-thing. all else lacks specialty.
**QUOTE** (perun1201 @ Aug 5 2003, 11:58 ) In order for your belief to work(that truth is dependent on the volk) that only proves that Odin is king of the Norse people, Perun of the Slavic peoples, and Zeus of the Greeks. But yet to hold that view is to diminish to your gods to the role of local guardian angels, not gods. Because god(s) must be the ruler(s) of the universe in order to be god(s). ** Wotan is god of all only as Germanics should understand him. God of all peoples on earth, but only by the mind/race-soul of the Germanic. jews however, are a different folk, and may believe they are the chosen people, this is not a belief of another folk unless it is of the particular folk in question to believe such a way.
**QUOTE** (perun1201 @ Aug 5 2003, 11:58 ) In other words, you ignore all knowledge not from your folk. ** this is the OPPOSITE of what I said. study everything, but be only YOURSELF. (be conscious of what you take, learn to adapt with what exists already as your own Around the innovations of others, fill whatever voids exist in your culture in your own way or from your own culture. do not just change another's ideas, in a different packaging and call it ones own; talk about then having no identity!)
**QUOTE** (perun1201 @ Aug 5 2003, 11:58 ) So you're even rejected a major intellectual influence on folkish nationalism? This is just getting funnier and funnier. :lol: ** I do not reject it for myself. I say you stealing it is an insult to me, and a weakening of your own national identity depending on the creations of Germanic culture.
**QUOTE** (perun1201 @ Aug 5 2003, 11:58 ) The basic tenets are, or else nationalism as a force would not exist! German nationalism maybe different from French nationalism, but the basic tenets of each are the same. Even Japanese nationalists agree and even adopted Western nationalist ideas, as evident in the theories of Kita Ikki.** then they are not purely Japanese in culture. that's their choice to drop their folkish form of nationalism for another. my only point is that it is not folkishness to do so
**QUOTE** (perun1201 @ Aug 5 2003, 11:58 ) Then why is it a universally accepted virtue? name one culture that doesn't value strength and courage.** Christians want you to be Meek servants before god. how is that desiring 'strength' or autonomy? the idea of what 'strength' is, is subjective. do you mean muscles? strength of thought? willpower?
**QUOTE** (perun1201 @ Aug 5 2003, 11:58 ) > ** Christianity grew out of herd-mentality, something that needs to be cowd by introverted statist control by nationalistic governments. the weak conquer again & again, it is due to weak willed individuals and mass numbers.** Ahh, so my comment about you being anti-populist was correct, you just proved me right!** things must constantly evolve for the masses, otherwise, yes! the masses by their own will move backwards. the elite must make their ways the majority at all times. when the masses believe the way of the elite, a New elite further among that majority will come into being, which will in-turn need to make it's ways the majority. the elite few are always the correct, and always the few, but the masses must keep evolving, not let to slip into sychophantism and pandering to their base needs at all times.
**QUOTE** (perun1201 @ Aug 5 2003, 11:58 ) > ** I never said pagans were strong, Heathens like myself simply see it that we fight for ourselves at whatever cost. ** And thats why many pagans were conquered by Roman legionaries, because they fought as individuals not as a group. Oh and you saying Pagans are not strong, I do believe you contradicted yourself again!** 'ourselves' does not mean alone! (but if need be, we would; it is a moralistic stance)
**QUOTE** (wintermute @ Aug 5 2003, 18:12 ) One day, Nagel is going to be shocked - shocked - to learn about the strong foundational similarities between the Sanatana Dharma and the Asatru.** assume nothing about someone you do not know. what was it I had already said about the Eastern Aryan cult of Mithras being closer to our ways than early Christianity?