← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · Otho_Isch
Thread ID: 8263 | Posts: 30 | Started: 2003-07-19
2003-07-19 17:10 | User Profile
[url=http://www.chicagojewishnews.com/lists_20th.jsp]TOP 100 JEWS OF THE 20TH CENTURY[/url]
Who would you choose?
David Ben-Gurion Part Moses, part George Washington, he, more than anyone else, led the Jewish people, devastated by the Holocaust, into the promised land, which, more than anything else, transformed Jewish life in the 20th century.
Albert Einstein An ardent Zionist, a great humanist, the scientific genius who saw what no one had before and, in so doing, changed forever how we view the universe.
Sigmund Freud His insights into the mind opened us up to ourselves and helped us understand who we are.
The Lubavitcher Rebbe The greatest rabbinic figure of the century, he connected Jews with Judaism by accentuating the positive and by reaching out to all, all over the world.
Yitzhak Rabin He led Israel to a stunning victory in the Six Day War and stunningly put Israel on the path to a true peace and the fulfillment of the Zionist dream.
Louis Brandeis The first great Jewish lawyer in the United States, the first Jew to sit on the Supreme Court, an important Zionist and a leader of the progressive movement that led to the election of FDR.
Milton Friedman His economic theories influenced monetary policy in this country and in others around the world, leading to the prosperity we and others now enjoy.
David Sarnoff The father of broadcasting, the head of NBC, no one did more to make television a part of our lives, bringing the world into our living rooms.
Samuel Gompers Founder of the American Federation of Labor, he led the effort to better the lives of working men and women, guiding the struggle for higher wages and shorter hours.
Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz The greatest Jewish scholar since Maimonides, he opened up the Talmud to the average Jew.
Steven Spielberg His films have captivated millions, with "Schindler's List" bringing the story of the Holocaust to the public in a way that went right to the soul.
Dr. Jonas Salk Before him, millions suffered from and died from the ravages of polio. Because of him, the disease has been eliminated from the face of the earth.
J. Robert Oppenheimer His work on the atomic bomb helped bring about the end of the war with Japan and the beginning of the nuclear age.
Elie Wiesel He kept the memories of the six million alive when no one else was and has been a strong, often solitary voice in support of all who suffer anywhere.
Baron Edmond de Rothschild He made sure Herzl's dream of a Jewish homeland would become a reality by securing the land on which Jews could build the state.
Betty Friedan The mother of feminism, her book "The Feminine Mystique" laid the groundwork for the equitable treatment of women.
Natan Sharansky His inspiring determination in the face of Soviet brutality inspired a generation of refuseniks and led to a million Soviet Jews coming to Israel.
Chaim Weizmann The first president of Israel, his negotiations with world governments was key to world support for the creation of the Jewish state.
Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel He gave meaning to Jewish admonitions of tikkun olam, transforming the world, holding high the Jewish flag in the fight for civil rights and other causes.
Hank Greenberg Known as the Jewish Babe Ruth, this home run slugger was a hero to American Jews at a time when they badly needed one.
Irving Shapiro Head of Dupont, he was the first Jew to lead a Fortune 500 company.
Rabbi Bernard Revel Founder of the forerunner of Yeshiva University, the first college of arts and sciences in the Diaspora under Jewish sponsorship, he emphasized the need for both secular and Jewish learning, of being educated in both "Torah and science."
Abbie Hoffman Leader of the movement that brought an end to the Vietnam War and showed young people they could make a difference.
Anne Frank The symbol of the tragic loss Judaism suffered in the Holocaust, her diary shows how strong is the human spirit.
Leon Trotsky One of the most influential figures in modern political history, without him Lenin would not have been able to bring Marxism to Russia.
Irving Berlin Composer of some of the best known and most loved songs in American life, including "G-d Bless America," "Alexander's Ragtime Band," "You're in the Army Now," and about a thousand others.
Menachem Begin He took the courageous step of making peace with Egypt which changed everything and effectively ended any real threat to Israel's existence.
Rabbi Solomon Schechter Under his direction, the Jewish Theological Seminary became the national center for the ordination of modern rabbis. He also initiated a union of Conservative synagogues.
Henrietta Szold The founder of Hadassah, she was a leading force in the development of social welfare, child and health care programs in the Holy Land.
The Chofetz Chaim His books made Jewish law accessible to the masses, his personal example showed that Jewish law is to be lived, not just studied.
Walter WinchellIn his heyday, no journalist reached more people than he did. He courageously brought the Holocaust to the awareness of the American public.
Helen Suzman This South African author was a strong and unshakable voice denouncing the immoral policy of apartheid in her country.
Carl Sagan He made the universe understandable to all and made its wonders something all could be part of.
Rabbi Sally Priesand The first woman to be ordained a rabbi, she opened the doors for the gender equality that has followed.
Nachum Goldman He was the Jewish statesmen after World War II, playing an indispensable role in the reparations agreement with Germany and in the development of Israel.
Niels Bohr After Einstein, he was the most influential physicist of the century, the father of quantum theory which laid the groundwork for modern nuclear science.
Henry Kissinger This German immigrant rose to the pinnacle of American power and was the architect of detente with the Russians and relations with China.
Bugsy Siegel If it wasn't for him, Las Vegas would still be an unknown spot in the desert.
Yonatan Netanyahu The hero of the Entebbe rescue, he epitomized the fact that Israel would do whatever necessary to rescue Jews in trouble wherever they were.
Simon Wiesenthal His relentless pursuit of Nazi war criminals brought many of them to justice, including Adolph Eichmann and the commandant who ordered the murder of Anne Frank.
Rabbi Stephen Wise One of the first Reform rabbis to embrace Zionism, he led the fight in America in support of creating the Jewish state.
Eliezer Ben Yehuda He took the dusty old language of Hebrew, confined only to books, and brought it to life, making it a vibrant, living, breathing thing.
Felix Frankfurter One of the country's leading lawyers, he was an advisor to FDR, the third Jew to serve on the Supreme Court and an ardent proponent of Zionism.
Stephen Sondheim This most poetic of composers has dazzled us with his music, with everything from "A Little Night Music" to "Into the Woods" to so much more.
Hannah Senesh Called the Jewish Joan of Arc, she volunteered to fly from Israel to parachute behind enemy lines to rescue Jews in Hungary during World War II. She was captured, tortured and executed at age 23.
Ted Koppel The best interviewer on television, he showed us just how powerful a medium it is when it's done right.
Sholom Aleichem The greatest of all Yiddish authors, he wrote the Tevye stories upon which "Fiddler on the Roof" is based, keeping a time, place and world alive.
Jerome Robbins One of the most influential choreographers of the century, his unique style of dance energized both Broadway musicals and classical ballet.
Yigal Yadin His archaeological work brought the Dead Sea Scrolls to life and showed just how ancient and how firm is the Jewish tie to the land of Israel.
Henry Morgenthau One of the most influential Jewish political figures in American history, he was FDR's Treasury secretary, and confidant, during World War II.
Martin Buber Foremost Jewish philosopher of the century, his "I and Thou," looked at how man relates to the world and his "Hebrew Humanism," stressed the divine role of the Jews among the nations.
Emma Goldman This anarchist and agitator showed the way for liberation movements to come, especially that for women's rights.
Marc Chagall He often employed Jewish themes in his colorful, fanciful works of art. His windows adorn the Knesset in Jerusalem.
Dr. Albert Sabin Following in the footsteps of Jonas Salk, he developed the widely-used oral vaccine that ended polio's reign of terror.
Rabbi Aron Kotler He transplanted the European yeshiva to the shores of America and developed a model that has been emulated in most communities around the country.
Golda Meir This American born woman was Israel's only woman prime minister, showing the world Jewish mothers don't just stay in the kitchen.
Bob Dylan His songs captured the spirit of a generation, gave expression to what many were feeling.
Jerry Seinfeld When it comes to comedy on television, he was something, the master of his domain.
Gustav Mahler A leading force in the Jewish and Viennese music scenes, his works greatly influenced other Jewish composers.
S. Y. Agnon He won the first Nobel Prize for Literature to be given to a Hebrew author.
Moshe Dayan He inspired the troops in the Six Day War, gave us understanding into the Arab psyche, taught us to love the land and its history.
Rabbi Mordecai Kaplan He made Reconstructionism into a vital fourth branch of Judaism and several of his innovations, including the bat mitzvah, have been adopted by all Jewish denominations.
Herman Wouk His novels have captivated millions of readers, bringing the reality of war to life, while his Jewish writings have brought the beauty of Yiddishkeit to heart.
Alan Greenspan His stewardship of the Federal Reserve Board has given us an economy that many thought not possible: low unemployment, high growth, low inflation.
Groucho Marx His mind was so fertile and his mouth so fast, it's hard to keep up and harder not to laugh. He's influenced all comics who have come since.
Isaac Bashevis Singer He won the Nobel Prize for Literature for his books written in Yiddish, helping to lead to yet another revival for this supposedly dead language.
Louis B. Mayer Head of Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer, he was the most influential of all movie studio moguls with a keen sense for what Americans wanted to go to the movies to see.
Rabbi Louis Finkelstein One of Conservative Judaism's greatest scholars, he served as chancellor of the Jewish Theological Seminary and did much to strengthen the movement.
Bess Meyerson The first Jewish Miss America, she was the pride and joy of Jewish mothers and the daydream of Jewish fathers.
Mark Rothko A leading advocate of the school of painters known as abstract expressionism, he used the power of color to evoke emotions and profoundly influenced how art is created and viewed.
Sarah Schnirer This Polish seamstress created the Bais Yaakov network of girls yeshivas, bringing formal Jewish education, for the first time, to Orthodox girls and young women.
Teddy Kollek Long-time mayor of Jerusalem, he dramatically changed the face of the city with his numerous building projects and did much to ensure its peaceful unification.
Rabbi Joseph Soloveichik A brilliant Torah scholar, he influenced thousands in how to live in the modern world while clinging tightly to tradition.
Molly Picon A star of the Yiddish stage, her brilliance as an actress led to worldwide acclaim.
Hannah Arendt A philosopher, she spent much of her life trying to understand the political and moral causes of the Nazi rise in Germany and other totalitarian regimes of the 20th century.
Harry Houdini A sensation of his time, his amazing escapes made him one of the greatest showmen of the century.
George Gershwin Composer of some of the finest and most enduring of American music, including "Porgy and Bess," and "An American in Paris."
Walter Lippman The intellectual elite and leading politicians, including presidents, cared about and listened to what he had to say in his editorials and newspaper columns.
Abba Eban He was the voice of Israel to the world, his eloquence brilliantly stating the case for why the United Nations should vote to recognize the Jewish state.
Mark Spitz His seven Olympic gold medals for swimming electrified the world and were a major source of nachas, discrediting the stereotype about Jews and sports.
Ahad Ha'am His essays brilliantly made the argument for the need for cultural renewal in Judaism. He played a key role in the negotiations with Britain that led to the Balfour Declaration calling for a Jewish homeland in Palestine.
Rabbi Abba Hillel Silver This silver-tongued orator, by both words and deeds, did much to bring about the birth of the state of Israel.
Leonard Bernstein A true renaissance man, he was a conductor, composer, pianist, author, teacher. His flamboyant style captivated audiences and his love for Israel gladdened Jewish hearts.
Red Auerbach He made the Boston Celtics the most dominant basketball team of its time and perhaps of all times. Sorry Michael.
Franz Kafka This Czech author's very personal books movingly expressed the anxieties and alienation of life in the 20th century.
Shimon Peres The only man to serve in all four of Israel's top governmental offices, he built Israel's defense establishment from the ground up and was the visionary that brought peace with the Palestinians.
Arthur Miller Like his best known play, "Death of a Salesman," most of his works deal with the real struggles faced by real people.
Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook The prophet of religious Zionism, he was the first to see the return of Jews to their homeland as the beginning of the divine redemption.
Sandy Koufax One of baseball's best pitchers ever, he brought pride to Jews everywhere by refusing to play in the World Series on Yom Kippur.
Neil Simon The most prolific of playwrights, his works have been among the most popular of the last generation, spawning movies and a TV series.
Rabbi Leo Baeck Theologian who served as spiritual leader of liberal Judaism in Germany, he survived the concentration camps and went on to found the World Union of Progressive Judaism after the war.
Lenny Bruce A comedian ahead of his time, he brought an edge to humor that made stand-up a real force.
Sarah Bernhardt The "Divine Sarah" was the greatest performer of her time and still is the symbol of truly brilliant acting.
Gloria Steinem She took Friedan's ideas and brought them to the masses while showing that you can be for liberation while also being nice to look at.
Isaac Stern One of the century's best violinists, he has devoted his life to a large number of good causes and has given much of himself, most of all, to his beloved Israel.
Barbra Streisand She kept her nose and her Jewish accent and became one of the country's most accomplished entertainers while also directing movies.
Al Jolson His was the first voice ever heard on film, with his "The Jazz Singer" ushering in the age of talkies. A leading star on the vaudeville stage.
Boris Pasternak Author of "Dr. Zhivago," he kept alive a spirit of humanity and compassion during the darkest days of Stalinist terror.
A. M. Rosenthal As executive editor of the New York Times, he transformed the paper, making it more lively and readable while maintaining the standards that make it the country's best.
Gertrude Stein She influenced some of the century's greatest artists, among them Hemingway and Picasso, both by tending to their needs and guiding them to make the most of their talents.
Dan Sharon of the Asher Library at Spertus Institute of Jewish Studies and Chicago historian Dr. Irving Cutler provided invaluable assistance with this special millennium issue. The Chicago Jewish News thanks them for their help.
2003-07-19 18:40 | User Profile
*Originally posted by godlesscapitalist@Jul 19 2003, 18:04 * ** Well, while many of the left-wing intellectuals on that list certainly pushed ideas damaging to Western Civilization...you can get an IMO more balanced picture by also taking into account the [url=http://www.jinfo.com]vastly disproportionate contributions[/url] of Jewish [url=http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/000743.html]scientists and mathematicians.[/url] **
You wouldn't be surprised of course to know Kevin MacDonald has something to say on that. Something about the ingroup strategy also being applicable there, vis a vis citing, funding recommendations, etc.
2003-07-19 19:32 | User Profile
Godless --
Ha! Jews either 1) stole what they "created" [e.g. Einstein] or built upon the prior works of White scientists.
I think I smell a Judenfriend...
2003-07-19 20:04 | User Profile
2. Albert Einstein An ardent Zionist
Einstein may have been a Zionist, but he also despised the likes of Begin and Sharon.
2003-07-19 20:31 | User Profile
Godless:
communism and Islam!
There are right-wing Jews too!
Many Gentiles are jealous of Jewish success!
hmm, hmm, ...Franco, what's that song I'm humming?
2003-07-19 22:20 | User Profile
Originally posted by godlesscapitalist@Jul 19 2003, 21:18 * *I know that Kevin MacDonald denies that Jews have made contributions to science. I just think he's full of it on this count. Here's my [url=http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/000756.html]position[/url] on KMD, if you're interested.
As for whether I'm a "judenfriend"...I'm a cognitive elitist. Excuse me for being quick to the mark, but for "a cognitive elitist" commenting on MacDonald, you don't seem to have read him that much. At least you don't seem to have understood and assimilated his key points, i.e. your so-called "kernal of truth" very well. MacDonald makes no such claim. On the contrary I think he would think it inevitable, given the mean Ashkenazi** (is this correct spelling :lol:) IQ of 119, although he notes it tends to be more in verbal than mathematical/technical compared to East Asians.
Lots of Jews belong in that category. I'm also a scientist, and there are many intelligent Jews in my field - along with many intelligent gentiles, East Asians, and South Asians. The thing is - one can appreciate the positive contributions of Jews without ignoring their negative contributions. Gentiles bridle when others represent them by their mass murderers and religious fanatics rather than by their scientists and artists...why should Jews be any different? Yes, we've discussed this before.
**Also, the question of whether Jews have higher IQ (on average) than white gentiles is IMO as open and shut as the question of whether white gentiles are more intelligent than blacks. There's reams of data to support this - try [url=http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/]Griffe's[/url] site, for starters. Why then is there dispute over whether they're "genuinely" overrepresented in the sciences? Jewish scientists do not begin and end with Einstein. They are overrepresented at every level of the academic ladder, from [url=http://www.intel.com/education/sts/2003winners.htm]Intel Winners[/url] to the [url=http://www.jinfo.org/Mathematics.html]highest levels of mathematics[/url] - a discipline which requires little in the way of funding. **
No dispute here, although mathemeticians of course do rely on the citations index and recommendations for their prestige like any other science professional.
I just think it's a question of intellectual honesty. Can you grant that Jews have accomplished much that is not malign? If not, then your position is like that of Arthur Kemp, the Afrocentrists, the BJP, etc...an interpretation of history unconstrained by the facts.
Many blacks who refuse to believe that white gentiles are more intelligent on average rail against the accomplishments of white gentiles, coming up with all kinds of Afrocentric lists of inventions thought up by blacks that were "stolen" by whites. The suggestion that Jews really stole every one of those theorems and breakthroughs seems similarly conspiratorial to me.**
Are you familiar with the MacDonald distinction between science/scholarship with a Jewish interest? As an example Boas and Einstein both were eminent scientists. Boas however, certainly seems to have had a Jewish interest in his work "cultural relativism - an ADL staple", while Einstein's theory of relativity does not. Einstein's work is undoubtedlty science, while Boas's equally undoubtedly is "Jewish science".
(By the way, if you're going to bring up Olinto de Pretto - [url=http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/000750.html]see this thread[/url])
I didn't catch this reference on the thread. In general, it would be easier if we quote the individual statement that we are referring to, so we know who you are talking about.
In general, I think we need to set a pattern of understanding in our specific points on MacDonald's thesis, before you attempt to communicate your opinion on the broader implications of MacDonald's work, as you seem to be doing. As it stands, you seem to be wanting to jump the gun here, mixing our separate replies from different perspectives into one broadbrush reply, etc. I think a good social scientist would recognize the methodological problems in communicating like this.
2003-07-19 22:30 | User Profile
The contribution from Jewish and half-Jewish mathematicians is much smaller than from the non-Jews. Sorry, but I hear mostly French names when mathematic jargon is used. I see quite a few of "bullshitters" in that list compiled by Jews, like Feinman and Sagan. And Einstein's contribution is way overblown, in a typical zhid seld-adoring fashion.
2003-07-20 00:43 | User Profile
At least the "Forward 50" put Wolfowitz at the top of the list for 2002. These guys can't find a place for Boas in the top 100? Should he not occupy position #1?
2003-07-20 02:34 | User Profile
Originally posted by godlesscapitalist@Jul 20 2003, 01:07 * > *Are you familiar with the MacDonald distinction between science/scholarship with a Jewish interest? As an example Boas and Einstein both were eminent scientists. Boas however, certainly seems to have had a Jewish interest in his work "cultural relativism - an ADL staple", while Einstein's theory of relativity does not. Einstein's work is undoubtedlty science, while Boas's equally undoubtedly is "Jewish science". **
Yes, I'm familiar with this distinction. But in my view it boils down to maximizing the Jewishness of the "negative" Jews, while minimizing the Jewishness of the "positive" Jews. If you can move the "Jewish interests" target enough, then everything Jews do can be seen to be serving Jewish interests. Basically, it reminds me of college leftists who attacked logic itself as "linear hierarchichal patriarchal thinking". KMD similarly questions motive at every turn when people disagree with him:
Derbyshire dismisses evolutionary psychology as a passing fad, and asks, sarcastically, if in criticizing evolutionary psychology, he is pursuing his own evolutionary goals. ... And it does occur to me that writing critiques of evolutionary psychology and dismissing those who criticize Jews might be one way to attain social status** among the predominantly Jewish neo-conservative elite that dominates so much of the conservative media. **
This is * ad hominem * argumentation that's beyond the bounds of reasonable discourse. According to KMD, all agreement and disagreement is a charade; objective truth is unattainable because everyone is compromised by their interests. **How ironic that KMD ends up in the same position as the postmodernists he despises. **
Also, despite KMD's protests to the contrary:
** For Derbyshire, evaluating Jews is like a business ledger: There are positives and negatives, and for him, the positives vastly outweigh the negatives. However, providing a balance ledger of credits and debits is not a purpose of The Culture of Critique.**
He most certainly * is * keeping a tally:
The dispossession of Europeans is the ultimate defeat ââ¬â an evolutionary event of catastrophic proportions for people of European descent. Whatever the contributions of Jewish "entrepreneurs, jurists, philanthropists, entertainers, publishers, and legions upon legions of scholars," they could never make up for this cataclysmic loss** and for the political instability and chronic ethnic tensions that have been unleashed by the Jewish intellectual and political movements discussed in The Culture of Critique. **
** If I was feeling uncharitable, I might take a page from his own book and dismiss KMD's work as "gentile science". ** But since I'm not into that, I want to ask exactly what's wrong with KMD's argument. My view is that he focuses wayyyyy too much on motive. He has no empirical/quantitative data in any of his books...it's all history. Rather than focus on things like motive, which are very difficult to objectively establish (without techniques like fMRI), I feel that we should strip down the case to a minimum number of objective facts. My point: lose all the stuff about people's arguments being only a mask for their self-interest and reproduction, as it poisons the debate by focusing on currently untestable questions of motive. Instead, focus on the objective facts: Jews are smart --> have money. Jews also lean left. Money + smarts + leftism = disproportionately responsible for the pickle that we're in with respect to unskilled immigration.
(That said, I'm not against everything left - I'm a centrist/libertarian-leaning. I'm just against the bad stuff pushed by the left, i.e., the opposition to Western Civ).
**
Basically in this part of your reply ((I'll leave some of the rest top others, who I know will have an opinion ;) ) You quote from
[url=http://forum.originaldissent.com/index.php?showtopic=6542&hl=macdonald,and,derbyshire]MacDonald Replies To Derbyshire[/url]
written in response to Derbyshire's original article.
[url=http://forum.originaldissent.com/index.php?showtopic=6373&hl=macdonald,and,derbyshire]The Marx of the Anti-Semites[/url]
You are somewhat right to be noting MacDonald is keeping a score himself, but this is just the basic nature I think of his subject, and a natural response to his critics, who are completely indifferent to his methodology, just wanting to know he says the score is. This does seem to be a slight trend of his from PTSDA to SAID to CoC to his latest response to the growing CoC controversy. Social science inherently has political overtones, and when people politicize your work, in spite of all efforts on your pary eventually you are drawn into a response in kind. But that does not speak negatively of his basic methodology throughout his works on Judaism as an evolutionary strategy..
2003-07-20 03:53 | User Profile
*Originally posted by Okiereddust@Jul 20 2003, 00:20 * ** Einstein's work is undoubtedlty science, while Boas's equally undoubtedly is "Jewish science". **
Boas's work is undoubtedly GARBAGE, and regrettably a garbage very admired in my college and that I had to study it obligatorily in my last course. ':dung:'
2003-07-20 04:28 | User Profile
Originally posted by godlesscapitalist@Jul 20 2003, 03:39 * > You are somewhat right to be noting MacDonald is keeping a score himself, but this is just the basic nature I think of his subject, and a natural response to his critics, who are completely indifferent to his methodology, just wanting to know he says the score is. This does seem to be a slight trend of his from PTSDA to SAID to CoC to his latest response to the growing CoC controversy. Social science inherently has political overtones, and when people politicize your work, in spite of all efforts on your pary eventually you are drawn into a response in kind. But that does not speak negatively of his basic methodology throughout his works on Judaism as an evolutionary strategy.. ***
The problem I have with his methodology is that he focuses on motive too much. There are plenty of facts surrounding disproportionately Jewish support for leftism...that much I have no problem with. But his scientific methodology leaves much to be desired. To restate things as compactly as possible, KMD has the following issues:
For example, there's no way that feudal Europe stressed individualism. I know he's responded (can't find it on the web) by saying that the feudalism of the ancient gentiles does not invalidate his hypothesis that Europeans were/are individualistic, but this gets to the root of the problem: his hypotheses are not designed to be objectively testable. ** He's responed to most of your arguments.
Also, modern Jews [url=http://www.jpr.org.uk/Reports/PJC%20Reports/no_1_1996/main.htm]outmarry[/url] at very high rates, have a pronounced tendency towards [url=http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week609/feature.html]secularism[/url], are [url=http://judaism.about.com/cs/feminism/]prominent[/url] in the feminist movement, and are [url=http://www.jinfo.org]over-represented[/url]in science and engineering. In other words, a substantial fraction of modern Jews are the opposite of the ingroup-marrying, highly religious, anti-feminist, unscientific community that MacDonald describes in his table.**** He's responded to this too.
That said, the history that KMD reports is quite interesting - my issue is with those who look at it as science rather than history, because the part that KMD calls science revolves around inferences of motive.
I don't see how motive can be seperated from discussions of evolutionary psychology, as with psychology in general.
In other words, KMD is just as pseudoscientific as the Jewish intellectuals he dislikes, as there is no empiricism whatsoever in his work.
You should take up his criticisms with him, but when MacDonald is quoted more often in universities than Boas and the Frankfurt School, I'll admit its a problem for academia.
2003-07-20 05:14 | User Profile
Where are the likes of Lazar Kaganovich on that list?
godless: few here deny that Jews are an intelligent people and are overrepresented in academia. My personal stance however is that the damage they have done to gentile societies outweighs their contributions to science and the arts.
2003-07-20 05:49 | User Profile
*Originally posted by madrussian@Jul 19 2003, 16:30 * ** Sorry, but I hear mostly French names when mathematic jargon is used. **
I agree. Field-medal winners et al notwithstanding, when I think of people whose contributions to mathematics have been truly monumental, I think of the likes of Pascal and Fermat. Not to mention the fact that many who are assumed to be Jewsh simply because their names are "Jewish-sounding" like Heisenberg and Planck, were *goyim.[i/] I would advise the philosemites at gnxp to double-check carefully before making definite announcements regarding the Jewishness of many scientists and mathematicians.
2003-07-20 18:31 | User Profile
Originally posted by Prodigal Son@Jul 19 2003, 22:49 * ** I agree. Field-medal winners et al notwithstanding, when I think of people whose contributions to mathematics have been truly monumental, I think of the likes of Pascal and Fermat. Not to mention the fact that many who are assumed to be Jewsh simply because their names are "Jewish-sounding" like Heisenberg and Planck, were goyim.* I would advise the philosemites at gnxp to double-check carefully before making definite announcements regarding the Jewishness of many scientists and mathematicians. **
I didn't read that site but now that you mentioned it... Godless nut posted that Heisenberg was Jewish and that "early quantum physicists" were Jewish. Ever notice how the most ignorant are the ones buying into jew fairy tales of their superhuman status?
For the zhid-worshipping nuts in the audience, Heisenberg (the greatest quantum physicist), Fermi, Shroedinger, de Brogli, Planck, Dirac weren't Jewish. Bohr was half-Jewish.
2003-07-20 19:26 | User Profile
** godless wrote:
Perhaps there will also be data on whether they're genetically predisposed to lean left (this is a contentious issue). **
**For all newbies: It does NOT matter whether most Jews are "leftist" or "rightist." Jews rise to the top and then, once at the top, behave in a way that is Good For Jews ONLY. Whether Joe Goldbergstein is a Marxist hippie or a Wall Street banker makes no difference. He acts as a Jew, in a supremacist, our-people-first manner.
Do not be fooled by the fancy "left/right" labels. Labels are nearly worthless. Jews are Jews are Jews are Jews. They are an inbred race. Never forget that. **
2003-07-20 19:56 | User Profile
**In other words, KMD is just as pseudoscientific as the Jewish intellectuals he dislikes, as there is no empiricism whatsoever in his work. **
That's just a bald assertion. Care to support it?
Empirical observation amply corroborates everything MacDonald says.
2003-07-20 19:57 | User Profile
**zhid seld-adoring fashion...Godless nut posted ... jew fairy tales...zhid-worshipping nuts **
**Jews are Jews are Jews are Jews. They are an inbred race. Never forget that. **
Hmmm. Guess I misjudged the [url=http://forum.originaldissent.com/index.php?act=boardrules]nature[/url] ( :hit: :hit: )of this forum:
**** No spamming, personal attacks or general disruption ** Please refrain from base religious, ethnic or racial epithets and general profanity. **
My mistake :rolleyes:
2003-07-20 20:30 | User Profile
This entire issue of alleged Jewish intellectual supremacy and the contributions of Jewish scientists is irrelevant. Are Jews on the average more intelligent than Gentiles? Perhaps so. Are they disproportionately represented in the sciences by talent or tribal networking? I'd say a combination of the two. Does any of this mitigate the negative effect of Jews as a group (a process facilitated by many of the individuals named in the list posted by godlesscapitalist from a Jewish source, with the "contributions" of the most malignant culprits suitably sugarcoated) on gentile culture and society? Hell no. Obviously, Jews did not acheive the corrosive influence on Western culture, and particularly American culture, by being morons or mediocrities. On the other hand, Jews aren't as smart as they think they are: they might be intellectual, but they lack wisdom. Which their history proves again and again as they continue to push their luck and agitate the host population until the inevitable backlash occurs, something that a people dedicated to "never forgetting" just can't seem to grasp. And speaking of history, notice that the list posted by godlesscapitalist contains no mention of the Bolsheviks. No Trostsky, no Radek, no Kamenev, no Bela Kun. No Kaganovich, the man who murdered at least 20,000,000 gentiles in Russia/Ukraine, according to his own nephew's biography of him. I can see why a Jewish source wouldn't want to mention that, but I wonder why a dollar-worshipper wouldn't at least mention it, for at least propaganda's sake.
2003-07-20 20:37 | User Profile
Ooops! My bad. Trotsky did make the list. And yes, without him, Lenin (the quarter-Jew) wouldn't have been able to bring (Jew Karl) Marxism to Russia. And murder millions. But they were murdered by their intellectual superiors, so that's OK.
2003-07-20 21:00 | User Profile
Godless nut, Russians would say "tvoe mesto u parashi", or "your bunk is near the toilet". Another saying is "v chuzhoi dom so svoimi pravilami ne lez", or "don't come to someone else's house with your own set of rules".
Now go back and think again what goes for disruption here. Wild ignorant claims of zhid superiority and spamming this forum with how whites should miscegenate with their "superiors" to improve their stock is certainly open to ridicule. If you think your highlighted examples are abuse, then think again and find a new home where your fragile philosemitic sensibilities won't be hurt.
2003-07-20 21:04 | User Profile
Originally posted by AntiYuppie@Jul 20 2003, 13:52 * Quantum mechanics would have been developed had there never been a single Jew in the world*
AY,
I don't know how much you know on the subject, but quantum mechanics did get developed with minimal contribution from the zhids, so your formulation gives too much credit to them. Heisenberg, Shroedinger and de Brogli are the fathers of quantum mechanics. The greatest zhid mind, Einstein, tried to disprove it until his senile years.
2003-07-20 21:20 | User Profile
I think Einstein's photoelectric paper shows his ability to wildly speculate and his luck rather than his insight in quantum mechanics. He just came up with an empirical theory, that is a hypothesis without any theoretical foundation, explaining the observed experimental data. Only using Shroedinger equation for bound system, discreet energy levels come up naturally. So in that sense the contribution to quantum mechanics is zero. Empirical theories are useless because they just handwaving based on experimental data and don't give any insight and have very poor prediction power (once new data are available the theory's multiple parameters get tweaked).
The Einstein's papers of 1905 are used to corroborate the myth of his enourmous genius, at the time they were simply overlooked as either compilation of others' results (special relativity theory), handwaving (photoelectric effect), or of the level of a chapter in a PhD thesis (brownian motion, rather simple derivation).
2003-07-20 21:40 | User Profile
godless --
How is saying that "Jews are an inbred race" a slur? Jews ARE an inbred, hybrid race, a race by long inbreeding [Ashkenazim, i.e. most Jews].
What is your point? [Russian accent]: "You vant nicey play vere no von say 'Jooo?'" :) Good luck.
2003-07-20 21:42 | User Profile
Originally posted by godlesscapitalist+Jul 20 2003, 19:59 -->
QUOTE (godlesscapitalist @ Jul 20 2003, 19:59 ) <!--QuoteBegin-mwdallas@Jul 20 2003, 13:56 * *That's just a bald assertion. Care to support it? Empirical observation amply corroborates everything MacDonald says.**
As I said above, there are no reproductive fitness estimates, no genetics, no twin studies, no heritability estimates, no graphs - no empiricism whatsoever in KMD's books. They're works of history, not science. **
I tend to suspect the empiricism argument is somewhat of a red herring. After all, the subject of MacDonald's Jewish evolutionary strategies book is quite broad, tending to preclude lengthy empiricism in the book, which does of course contain ample references to refereed journal papers of his. I'm sure therefore the technical basis of his work is accepted in the field, even if his conclusions as expected are controversial.
Of course the best part of CoC methodologically and technically may be chapter 5, in which he debunks the bogus empiricism of The Authoritarian Personality. Lots of empiricism by itself is certainly no guarantee of accuracy - in fact the popularity of The Authoritarian Personality's conclusions may lead one to believe the opposite that it is often just a cover for fundanentally biased precepts. As the old saw goes: "figures don't lie - liars figure".
Though I am not a social science expert familiar with the boundaries of the disciplines, it may well be that the developing focus of MacDonald's work is an area of evolutionary psychology not esteemed by the empricists in the evcolutionary psychology field, recognizing that all social science fields have differing ddegrees of empiricism. It may be to GC that his work resembles more that of sociobiology, which seems to be a more common stronghold of conservatives and conservative/pro-western oriented studies as it has developed, as it does seem to have the sociological orientation GC decry's.
Okiereddust
2003-07-20 21:49 | User Profile
Originally posted by godlesscapitalist@Jul 20 2003, 19:57 * > *zhid seld-adoring fashion...Godless nut posted ... jew fairy tales...zhid-worshipping nutsÃÂ **
Hmmm. Guess I misjudged the [url=http://forum.originaldissent.com/index.php?act=boardrules]nature[/url] ( :hit: :hit: )of this forum:
**** No spamming, personal attacks or general disruption ** Please refrain from base religious, ethnic or racial epithets and general profanity. **
My mistake :rolleyes:**
The epithets portion is somewhat easy to articulate, although some people will always have differeing opinions aout wbords like Zhid, Jewess etc. But the "No spamming, personal attacks or general disruption" phrases are those that liberally interpreted would probably shut down all meaningful discussion on any forum I have ever been on.
Although we uphold our standards fairly I freely admit OD is not a forum designed for those with thin skins especially of the PC sensibility. If that was your impression, you certainly did make a mistake. :rolleyes: In fact, we've already discovered in your short time here you make a lot of mistakes.
madrussian
2003-07-21 00:29 | User Profile
WM, are you trying to eclipse Okie as the ceremonial master of OD instroduction to newbies? You have to prove one of your assertions, reserved for Okie something, by example :rolleyes:
And as far as OD regulars go, Franco is here :naughty:
Texas Dissident
2003-07-21 06:58 | User Profile
Welcome to Original Dissent.
Come feel the love. :wub:
na Gaeil is gile
2003-07-21 11:48 | User Profile
Every day is lovefest day on OD GodlessElitist, hang around long enough and toddbrendanfahey will ask to marry your sister. Your understanding of White nationalism appears to hinge on the Turner Diaries [url=http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=756]if these comments[/url] are any indication.
The point: white racial consciousness will not work, because it will cause bloody suffering & financial devastation for the American people. Remember that almost 700000 Americans died in the first Civil War...long before we had an Air Force, WMDs, modern artillery, etcetera. It took almost 40 years to truly rebuild the South. Can you imagine how long it would take to rebuild a radioactive and fractured "United" States without a Marshall Plan, with foreign powers picking at the corpse of what used to be the greatest nation on earth?
So I say: no. You will not do this in my country. You're free to try moving to Iceland, or enacting immigration restriction in one of the mostly white countries in Eastern Europe. But America is my home. You will not forcibly expropriate my property, nor deport me from the land of my birth. I speak English with greater fluency than 99% of the semiliterates who post on Stormfront. I have more technical expertise than ten of them put together. What right have they to tell me I am not an American? None whatsoever. In the end, land has always been the property of those willing to fight for it, and America is no different. If you ever did fight... you would lose.**
Although your defence of Jewish achievement makes perfect sense, as one of [url=http://www.vanguardnewsnetwork.com/vnn/showEssay.asp?essayID=1507]multiracialism's winners[/url] your existence is underwritten by plutocrats and Jews.
Run with a certain New York City social set and your Manhattan tapas bar compatriots for the evening will consist of computer-savvy Indians, rich South Americans tipping toward European in racial makeup but bearing Hispanic surnames, witty and assimilated Jews, sleek Asians and various other assorted international exotics. The Iranian who grew up in London and speaks perfect Farsi and more perfect English chats with gay-lilt-voiced White metrosexual. There will also be a handful of fine-looking Gentiles, born to wealthy East Coast families and currently dedicated to teaching inner-city youth. An inheritance or a spouse's investment banking job ensures that while days are spent in Newark, nights are spent on the Upper West Side. In their French blue shirts and chunky black glasses, they have a hearty chuckle about the people in Iowa, NASCAR or anything else they find amusing. They are multiracialism's winners. What you won't find are blacks. Even the lightest mulattoes are an extreme rarity. You won't find Hispanics of the border-crossing, lettuce-picking variety. And you most certainly won't find average Whites -- working, conservative, middle-class or otherwise. They are multiracialism's losers.
I wouldn't say I've run with the winners, but I've been to the gatherings. They always left me feeling vaguely sick. They always reeked of Gatsby-esque arrogance and cosmopolitan disconnect. You sensed that these people would drop you in a second if your gut got a little bigger or you were caught reading the Bible. "Loyalty" didn't seem to be the strong point of multiracialism's winners.**
Eendracht Maakt Mag
2003-07-22 11:38 | User Profile
I think godless is terribly confused about the nature of this forum....
Paleoleftist
2003-07-26 02:28 | User Profile
*Originally posted by godlesscapitalist@Jul 20 2003, 13:59 * ** They're works of history, not science. **
Errr, you view History as something totally unscientific?
So, if someone says Gaius Julius Caesar never existed, he is not a Kook, because History isnôt scientific, anyway? :rolleyes:
Of course, KMD in his Jewish Studies is mostly writing History; but itôs History I find pretty relevant for our situation.