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Thread 7704

Thread ID: 7704 | Posts: 73 | Started: 2003-06-29

golfball [OP]

2003-06-29 20:55 | User Profile

[url=http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-gay-pride-parade,0,3714109.story?coll=sns-ap-nationworld-headlines]www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-gay-pride-parade,0,3714109.story?coll=sns-ap-nationworld-headlines [/url] Gay Pride Parades Celebrate Court Victory JUSTIN GLANVILLE Associated Press Writer

June 29, 2003, 2:48 PM EDT

NEW YORK -- **Just days after the U.S. Supreme Court struck down laws against sodomy, gays took to the streets Sunday in Pride parades across the country to celebrated the historic victory. **

"It's a critically important step toward bringing full dignity and rights to gay people," said Ana Oliveira, executive director of Gay Men's Health Crisis, marching in the New York parade along Fifth Avenue.

[color=red]"For us, it creates a moment where we come together and we're proud. It reminds all other human beings that we're human beings too[/color]," she said.

The celebrations started Saturday with a few scattered events. In Florida marchers unfurled a [color=blue]900-foot-long rainbow flag [/color]in St. Petersburg and carried a simple sign reading "We are legal" in Orlando.

The huge annual Pride parades followed on Sunday in cities including San Francisco, New York, Atlanta, Chicago and across the border in Toronto.

[color=blue]"Let's hear it for gay pride. Let's even hear it for the Supreme Court -- who ever thought we'd say that?!" [/color][color=red]Sen. Charles Schumer, [SIZE=2][font=wingdings]Y [/font][/color] D-N.Y.[/SIZE], told the New York crowd through a megaphone. In recent years the events have sometimes been as much about partying as politics. But organizers this year say the Supreme Court ruling adds a special reason to celebrate.

Last week, the U.S. Supreme Court struck down a Texas law banning sodomy and issued a sweeping opinion that seemed to stake out new ground for gay rights campaigns. The 6-3 decision apparently swept away laws in a dozen states that ban oral and anal sex for everyone, or for homosexuals in particular.

***Laws against gay sex can lead to "discrimination both in the public and the private spheres," wrote[color=red] Justice Anthony Kennedy[/color]. Gays and lesbians, he said, are "entitled to respect for their private lives." ***

Both supporters and critics of the decision were quick to suggest it could lead to other legal advances for gays and lesbians -- [color=red]including the right to gay marriage [/color]-- and organizers said a feeling of hope would carry over to the marches and celebrations this weekend.

In Toronto, a huge street parade Sunday included newly married homosexual couples who traveled to Toronto to get hitched legally. [color=blue]Earlier this month, an Ontario appeals court found the definition of marriage as between a man and a woman to be unconstitutional,[/color] and Prime Minister Jean Chretien's government promised a new law legalizing same-sex marriage

Shawn Harrington, 27, of Tucson, Ariz., and his Canadian partner, Andy Cahyono, 25, exchanged vows in a civil ceremony at the City Hall marriage chapel, witnessed by two members of a gay rights group.

"We thought we would jump on the chance" to marry in Canada, said Harrington, manager of the Student Union food services at the University of Arizona in Tucson. He said he didn't expect conservative Arizona to consider same-sex marriage any time soon.

In San Francisco, Joey Cain, president of the board of directors of SF Pride, said the high court's ruling is "first and foremost in people's minds."

"The parade has always been about gay liberation," he said. "There will be quite a sense of celebration."

The gay community in San Francisco got a jump on the festivities Saturday, staging a huge commitment ceremony for gay couples downtown and unveiling a [color=red]huge pink triangle [/color] in the hills above the city.

"We have a lot to celebrate at this year's Pride," said Molly McKay, a spokeswoman for the group Marriage Equality California.

"It's a coming of age," McKay said. [color=blue]"This is a glorious and beautiful time to be queer[/color]."

Rumblestrip

2003-06-29 21:13 | User Profile

So do ya think there's still time to invest in the company that makes KY jelly? Could be the opportunity of a lifetime!

golfball

2003-06-29 21:52 | User Profile

*Originally posted by Rumblestrip@Jun 29 2003, 16:13 * ** So do ya think there's still time to invest in the company that makes KY jelly? Could be the opportunity of a lifetime! **

Not me. Guess I will miss out on that tip. Johnson & Johnson stock should rise with the erections of all of those queers. :blink:

golfball

2003-06-29 21:54 | User Profile

Wow! Associated Press has already changed the story but still uses the same link! June 29, 2003, 5:21 PM EDT :huh:

golfball

2003-06-29 21:57 | User Profile

This is the "NEW" story. Notice the time difference between the top story as compared with this one: [url=http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-gay-pride-parade,0,3714109.story?coll=sns-ap-nationworld-headlines]www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-gay-pride-parade,0,3714109.story?coll=sns-ap-nationworld-headlines [/url]

Gay Pride Parades Celebrate Court Ruling

By TERENCE CHEA Associated Press Writer

June 29, 2003, 5:21 PM EDT

SAN FRANCISCO -- Hundreds of thousands of people took to the streets Sunday for Gay Pride parades, energized by the Supreme Court's ruling that struck down laws against sodomy and a decision by Canada to allow gay marriage.

In New York, Atlanta, Seattle, San Francisco and other cities, revelers marched, danced and carried banners congratulating the Supreme Court for its landmark decision as rainbow flag-waving crowds lined the streets.

"There's such a resonance, such a sense of movement," said Marty Downs, a community organizer with the New York Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Community Center. "This year, it feels really political."

In recent years Gay Pride marches have sometimes been as much about partying as politics, but participants said this year's celebrations were different because of Thursday's ruling that struck down a Texas law banning sodomy.

The 6-3 decision apparently swept away laws in a dozen states that ban oral and anal sex for everyone, or for homosexuals in particular. Both supporters and critics of the decision were quick to suggest it could lead to other legal advances for gays and lesbians -- including the right to gay marriage -- and organizers said a feeling of hope would carry over to the marches and celebrations this weekend.

Organizers of the Atlanta Pride Festival, now in its 33rd year, said they expected a crowd of 300,000, the largest in the parade's history. The ruling was cited as a factor in the big turnout.

"You couldn't ask for a better reason to come out and celebrate," said Philip Rafshoon, owner of Outwrite Bookstore in Atlanta's traditionally gay Midtown neighborhood. "A lot of people think (gay sex is) immoral. And, unfortunately for them, it's not illegal anymore."

On June 10, an Ontario appeals court ruled as unconstitutional Canada's definition of marriage as only between a man and a woman -- paving the way for legalized gay unions there.

Even before the U.S. Supreme Court issued its ruling, the committee that puts on San Francisco's massive parade, one of the best-attended events in the state, had decided to infuse this year's festivities with a more activist bent.

The parade's theme was "You Gotta Give Them Hope," a campaign slogan that belonged to San Francisco's first openly gay city supervisor, Harvey Milk, who was assassinated along with Mayor George Moscone 25 years ago this November. The SF Pride Committee also used the occasion to encourage people to lobby the state Senate to vote for pending legislation that would grant gay couples most of the same legal and financial benefits as married heterosexuals.

"We got a couple of breaks in the last few weeks, with Canada legalizing gay marriage and now the Supreme Court," said Supervisor Tom Ammiano, one of two candidates vying to become the city's first gay mayor this year. "It looks like Sandra Day O'Connor watching `Will & Grace' really paid off."

Speaking through a megaphone at the New York parade, Sen. Charles Schumer, D-New York, took note of how much the political landscape for gays and lesbians had changed with a few short days.

"Let's hear it for gay pride," Schumer shouted. "Let's even hear it for the Supreme Court -- who ever thought we'd say that!"

As they basked in the recent victory, many participants said they looked forward to a new era of equality and respect.

"We're all together, one family," said Armando Gonzalez, 21, of Issaquah, Wash., who took part in Seattle's parade as a member of youth choir made up of both gay and straight singers. "There are no barriers."

Lewis Wetzel

2003-06-29 23:28 | User Profile

I didn't know Schumer was so pro-homo. I didn't think it was possible, but he's become even more loathesome to me.

golfball

2003-06-30 01:17 | User Profile

Jews are perverters of White Civilized Society. Sen. Charles Schumer, [SIZE=2][font=Wingdings]Y[/font][/SIZE] D-N.Y., is a Jew. <_<

Drakmal

2003-06-30 02:09 | User Profile

Sen. Charles Schumer, Y D-N.Y.

What does the Y stand for?

golfball

2003-06-30 02:49 | User Profile

Ah yes, the "Y"

When you highlight a letter Y, click on the FONT button. A drop down menu appears with six options. Click on Arial, or any of the other options and you will get something that looks like this [FONT = Arial ] Y [ /FONT]. In order to see how to signify the race of the individual as posted, erase the Arial after FONT= , and replace the word Arial with Wingdings. Also, be sure to make your size setting about a 9 in order for the image to show up clearly.

a Y under the font of Wingdings looks like [SIZE=2][font=Wingdings]Y[/font][/SIZE]

Here is the symbol at the largest setting, [SIZE=4][font=Wingdings] Y[/font][/SIZE]

Lewis Wetzel

2003-06-30 03:57 | User Profile

**Sen. Charles Schumer, Y D-N.Y., is a Jew. **

I knew he was a 1) Gabardine-stroking mokie 2) A liberal Democrat 3) A gun-grabbin' P.O.S.

But the fact he's also an assclown for the queers is the icing on the cake. Is he a particularly vocal Friend of Israel? If so, he's a Compleate Enemie!

Drakmal

2003-06-30 07:51 | User Profile

**a Y under the font of Wingdings looks like Y

Here is the symbol at the largest setting, Y**

The funny part is that I filter out font tags, so it always looks like a Y to me instead of a star of david. :)

Perhaps Tex will consider adding a couple of inline symbols (ala emoticons) for identifying people's affiliations: a star of david and some universal flag of caucasia.

golfball

2003-06-30 15:51 | User Profile

The Y can also stand for Y i d. :rolleyes:

Roy Batty

2003-06-30 18:21 | User Profile

*Originally posted by golfball@Jun 29 2003, 12:55 * ** [url=http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-gay-pride-parade,0,3714109.story?coll=sns-ap-nationworld-headlines]www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-gay-pride-parade,0,3714109.story?coll=sns-ap-nationworld-headlines [/url] Gay Pride Parades Celebrate Court Victory JUSTIN GLANVILLE Associated Press Writer

June 29, 2003, 2:48 PM EDT

NEW YORK -- **Just days after the U.S. Supreme Court struck down laws against sodomy, gays took to the streets Sunday in Pride parades across the country to celebrated the historic victory. **

"It's a critically important step toward bringing full dignity and rights to gay people," said Ana Oliveira, executive director of Gay Men's Health Crisis, marching in the New York parade along Fifth Avenue.

Anyone that considers sodomy a part of, or a step toward "dignity" is sick beyond description. Even more amusing, the person who voices that opinion for all to see and hear is the Executive Director of "Gay Men's Health Crisis" ... :lol:

Angler

2003-06-30 18:29 | User Profile

Originally posted by golfball@Jun 30 2003, 09:51 * The Y can also stand for Y i d. :rolleyes:*

LOL

Okiereddust

2003-06-30 18:41 | User Profile

Originally posted by Lewis Wetzel@Jun 30 2003, 03:57 * But the fact he's also an assclown for the queers is the icing on the cake. Is he a particularly vocal Friend of Israel? If so, he's a Compleate Enemie!*

Hey, all the atheists and pagans on this always complain of their long-term oppression by the ethics and morality of Western Christian culture, their persecution and minority status, Christianity's "intolerance", etc.

I'm surprised they aren't embracing their fellow victims, rejoicing at their liberation, and planning a party down at one of their "gay-leather" bars. You'll would fit right in :lol:

Aidos

2003-07-01 21:34 | User Profile

Wow, reading all the hate postings, one would not realise that what has happened is that the State has been banned from the bedrooms of the nation, and that both Homo and Heterosexuals can now have consensual sex without worrying about breaking the law. I think that is the real message behind the Supreme Court decision, all articles and sensationalist stories to the contrary.

Freedom has consequences, in that people may now do as they like. Was the old law better?

LA Refugee

2003-07-01 23:43 | User Profile

Agreed. What's the problem? Now they can do legally what they do anyway, and besides, they don't breed. I'd rather have a pair of them for neighbors than a houseful of picaninnys or beaners.

golfball

2003-07-02 02:41 | User Profile

*Originally posted by Aidos@Jul 1 2003, 16:34 * ** Wow, reading all the hate postings, ........ **

:huh: I did not see any hate postings....

golfball

2003-07-02 02:46 | User Profile

*Originally posted by LA Refugee@Jul 1 2003, 18:43 * ** Agreed. What's the problem? Now they can do legally what they do anyway, and besides, they don't breed. I'd rather have a pair of them for neighbors than a houseful of picaninnys or beaners. **

I have young children. If queers move in next to me, they will be eyeing my children in order to figure out how to "break them in". :blink:

I have a problem with queers in my neighborhood, especially around children. :angry:

Queers are not welcome around my area, or my children.

Okiereddust

2003-07-02 04:48 | User Profile

Originally posted by LA Refugee@Jul 1 2003, 23:43 * *Agreed. What's the problem? Now they can do legally what they do anyway, and besides, they don't breed. **

A little thing called democracy (constitutional republicanism for my Jeffersonian nigglers around here) and rule of law. Something neither you or your National Alliance counterparts don't have much of a feeling for.

Lady_America

2003-07-02 05:11 | User Profile

Do you think the boy and girl scouts will welcome this news? I was considering letting my daughter join the scouts, but on second thought--nah. Maybe not. The scouts will be forced to hire these queers.

Does anyone know of a place in the world where one can uphold higher morals (and be dominately white)? I need to raise my girls and I don't think America is that place anymore.

Kurt

2003-07-02 05:32 | User Profile

Originally posted by Aidos@Jul 1 2003, 15:34 * ** Wow, reading all the hate postings*, one would not realise that what has happened is that the State has been banned from the bedrooms of the nation, and that both Homo and Heterosexuals can now have consensual sex without worrying about breaking the law. **

Hate postings?!? Good heavens! You're not going to notify the [url=http://www.adl.org/]ADL[/url] now, are you?

You sound like a whiny little leftist, going on about "hate."

[SIZE=1]With "Europeans" (at least that's what you claim to be) like you, no wonder Europe is such a mess, at least for Whites, what with all your [url=http://forum.originaldissent.com/index.php?showtopic=8429]hate crimes laws[/url] and other :dung: . Europe needs less people like you, and more people like Leland Gaunt.[/SIZE] B)

Aidos

2003-07-02 06:13 | User Profile

I hope I wasn't sounding whiny!! But it is interesting that swimming against the majority here is interpreted as whiny. But I shan't characterise the other postings here as whiny, merely because they express a different opinion.

Yes, Europe is certainly in a mess, but not because of anti-white legislation. PC is far less of an issue generally in Europe, and I find people can express opinions more freely here than in the US.

Over-regulation and a nanny-state mentality, the inability to really reform spending and ongoing borrowing are destroying some economies right now, especially in Germany.

ADL I assume is the Anti-Defamation League, which I have heard of, but am not really sure what it does, but I do not intend to call them anyway.

And Golfball, I don't believe that all queers are busy trying to convert children in any neighbourhood. They have enough problems in today's society and probably just want to be left alone.

But I stand by my original post: the government has no business in the bedrooms of either hetero or homosexuals, regulating sex, and I am pleased that that is now THE law, across the entire Union.

Kurt

2003-07-02 06:34 | User Profile

And Golfball, I don't believe that all queers are busy trying to convert children in any neighbourhood. They have enough problems in today's society and probably just want to be left alone.

:lol: Yeah, those poor widdle queers. Why can't we just leave them alone? They're constantly demanding that people accept them, marching in gay pride parades, harassing groups like the Boy Scouts, yet they just want to be left alone. :rolleyes:

[img]http://www.pscolumns.com/images/Drag_in_parade.jpg[/img]

[img]http://images.english.montrealplus.ca/feature/8410/5-a.jpg[/img]

"We just wanna be left alone...is that so wrong?"

Kurt

2003-07-02 06:48 | User Profile

*Originally posted by Aidos@Jul 2 2003, 00:13 * ** Yes, Europe is certainly in a mess, but not because of anti-white legislation. PC is far less of an issue generally in Europe, and I find people can express opinions more freely here than in the US.

Over-regulation and a nanny-state mentality, the inability to really reform spending and ongoing borrowing are destroying some economies right now, especially in Germany. **

One of Europe's (and America's) main problems is non-White immigration. Every European, and European-American, should read [url=http://home.earthlink.net/~karljahn/camp.htm]The Camp Of The Saints[/url] (though I get the feeling Aidos would be cheering for the invaders <_< ).

Aidos

2003-07-02 07:07 | User Profile

No Kurt, I would not be cheering the invaders, and unlimited immigration is something I am against, period.

That said, the fact that the world is for most of the population, a pretty miserable place means that people will always be looking to flee and build better lives for their families. And that means immigration from the Third World to the 'First.'

What we should be fighting for, is justice and democracy and a chance to build that kind of society in those countries, so that immigration becomes a non-issue. And that means tackling the corporatist, exploitation oriented profit-at-any-cost cabal that runs most of the world economy.

The left-wing anti-globalisation crowd have a good point: If local economies continue to be dominated by outside interests looking to pump money out and generally, into the 'First World,' then immigration won't recede, it will increase!

Texas Dissident

2003-07-02 07:48 | User Profile

Originally posted by LA Refugee@Jul 1 2003, 18:43 * *Agreed. What's the problem? **

9 unaccountable Washington D.C. foreigner elites telling the sovereign State of Texas what laws it can and cannot have. If we had a governor who had any stones, he'd tell them they could go to hell. :thd:

Walter Yannis

2003-07-02 08:23 | User Profile

Originally posted by Texas Dissident+Jul 2 2003, 07:48 -->
QUOTE (Texas Dissident @ Jul 2 2003, 07:48 )

QUOTE (2600 @ Jul 6 2003, 06:59 )
<!--QuoteBegin-Karl Wilhelm@Jul 5 2003, 02:21 * My second son is a complete loser* --- he's a priest.

**

Better not let Walter Yannis see that...after all, the Faith is Europe. And Europe is the Faith. It's what we're fighting to protect....

Honestly, though, how is your son a loser for becoming a man of the cloth? **

It's too late, I've already seen it and reported it, and can assure you that the Holy Office of the Inquisition is preparing a very special dungeon indeed! :naughty:

Agree with Il Ragno, we're looking at an IP troll here.

Ignore.

Walter

il ragno

2003-07-06 09:33 | User Profile

It's too late, I've already seen it and reported it, and can assure you that the Holy Office of the Inquisition is preparing a very special dungeon indeed!

But nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition! And here you go tipping your hand - !

Ah well...Cardinal Fang? Bring forth....the comfy chair!

golfball

2003-07-06 20:50 | User Profile

Karl Wilhelm, I would not want your kind around my children either. Do you know what the Holy Bible says about queers? Lets Look!

K J V 1611 Leviticus 20

And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, ..........

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Queers and their supporters will always be offended by a Holy God.

God clearly states that when queers are put to death, God does not consider the one(s) instituting the ultimate penalty upon the sexual deviant(s) to be guilty.

I can see the curse being placed upon your seed brought about tolerance for abominable lifestyles. Can you? :huh:

Karl Wilhelm

2003-07-07 00:37 | User Profile

An answer sheet.

(1) Before my son was moved to join the priesthood, he had a fiancee. All through highschool, he had a girlfriend who thought she was going to marry him. (Poor Wanda.) (Poor Donna.)

(2) My son isn't a loser for entering the priesthood, I was punning on the fact that, as a priest, he will not marry and, therefore, not begat children.

(3) 5 year old girls do not hold Churchly duties. Consequently, 5 year old girls cannot come into any sort of private contact with a priest.

(4) Until my youngest son "came out of the closet" to the family, I didn't use the terms homo or hetero, I assumed his being heterosexual. Afterall, he, too, had girlfriends --- two of which I know he s*d, because I caught him with one of them "under full steam." Another girl sent him a "love" letter in which she fondly recalls their night at her house instead of being at the movies. (No idea where her parents were.) My wife found the letter when picking up his letterman's sweater. Carelessly, he had simply thrown the letter over the sweater after reading it.

(5) The Catholic Church is not the authority on what is or isn't 'pedophilia'. The Church holds an position formulated and sustained "doctrinarily." (Note: I am not excusing any adult from taking advantage of any child or teen anywhere, anytime, under any circumstances. Neither do I excuse any man from the act of raping an individual of either sex.)

(6) As for "what" the Bible "says" "God" "said" --- which Bible are you reading? Which version? And by the way, which language did God use when he communicated with any of the writer-voices of the [u]Pentateuch[/u]?

(7) What happened to Deuteronomy?

il rango and W.Yannis: brushing off isn't convincing.

golfball

2003-07-07 13:14 | User Profile

*Originally posted by Karl Wilhelm@Jul 6 2003, 19:37 * ** ........

(6) As for "what" the Bible "says" "God" "said" --- which Bible are you reading? Which version? And by the way, which language did God use when he communicated with any of the writer-voices of the [u]Pentateuch[/u]?

(7) What happened to Deuteronomy?

**

In reference to #6: King James Version 1611. God spoke with Moses in a very clear voice that Moses understood.

God does exist, I assure you. God is a Holy God of Segregation, I assure you.

In reference to Deuteronomy, please be more specific.

Thank you.

golfball

2003-07-07 13:26 | User Profile

*Originally posted by Karl Wilhelm@Jul 6 2003, 19:37 * **

(5) The Catholic Church is not the authority on what is or isn't 'pedophilia'. The Church holds an position formulated and sustained "doctrinarily." (Note: I am not excusing any adult from taking advantage of any child or teen anywhere, anytime, under any circumstances. Neither do I excuse any man from the act of raping an individual of either sex.)

**

In reference to #5:

Due to the recent U.S. Supreme Court ruling, it appears that ALL forms of consented sexual deviancy are now protected, lawful behavior. This includes, but is not limited to, racemixing, homosexuality, beastiality, pedophilia,....etc...etc.

Since those filthy people on the Supreme Court have opened our nation to filthy queers and fully endorse all consented sexual depravity and deviancy, our country will suffer the wrath of a Holy God. Basically, the people that support sexual deviancy will suffer God's wrath.

People can choose to wallow with the filth and allow God's wrath to fall upon themselves if they want to. As for me and my children, we choose to separate from that filth and live under the conviction of a Holy God.

golfball

2003-07-07 13:38 | User Profile

Karl Wilhelm, here is an interesting thread that concerns another's effort to awaken folks to the destruction occurring during his time, and we see how the church has "progressed" up until today. The message is highlighted in red.

[url=http://forum.originaldissent.com/index.php?showtopic=8963]http://forum.originaldissent.com/index.php...?showtopic=8963[/url]

Aidos

2003-07-09 07:36 | User Profile

Golfball, stop being so senstaional! The court ruling does not condone, nor mention bestiality or pedophilia, which are still, as they should be, illegal. Intentionally broadening and misinterpreting the ruling like this is deception, not a reasoned response.

Aidos

2003-07-09 07:40 | User Profile

And quoting the Bible, one can pretty well justify any position. I find it interesting that so many Christian anti-Semites here spend so much time quoting the Old Testament. One would think their reading and interpretaion would take place mainly in the New Testament, and I do not believe that you nor most Christians want to implement legal observation of the rules found in Deuteronomy.
Seems like a lot of selection to bolster your position, so I am sure you are thankful and a regular user of concordances. Seems to me one of the reasons that separation of Church and State make so much sense, and it amazes me how so many members of Congress just do not seem to see the wisdom of this.

Walter Yannis

2003-07-09 11:44 | User Profile

*Originally posted by Aidos@Jul 9 2003, 07:36 * ** Golfball, stop being so senstaional! The court ruling does not condone, nor mention bestiality or pedophilia, which are still, as they should be, illegal. Intentionally broadening and misinterpreting the ruling like this is deception, not a reasoned response. **

That's not entirely accurate.

The dissent in that case intimated precisely these dangers in the decision, which established the judiciary's right to settle these matters, and not the elected representatives of the people of the several states. Golfball is here merely taking the position of three justices of SCOTUS.

Besides, it's really just a question of logical application of the principle. If all consensual sexual acts are beyond state warrant as falling within the "privacy" sphere surrounding individuals (Griswald), then by what logic do you say that these acts should remain illegal? They'd seem open to question, at the very least. I suppose one could stand on the "consent" part of the ruling, arguing that children and animals can't consent as a matter of law. On the other hand, animals are property and thus no consent is required to have sex with them arguable (you could kill them and eat them, why not have sex with them?); and the definition is "child" is itself under attack, from the lowering of the age of consent at the top, to allowing their murder through abortion to the moment of birth (and even after, if Peter Singer has his way) at the bottom.

Even worse, SCOTUS seems to have made the allusion in other cases that the state is obligated to recognize some of these private arrangements as "marriage" under the equal protection clause. I see no logical reason that polygamy, adult incest and other such relationships shouldn't have a claim to the dignity traditionally reserved to marriage. Why shouldn't Mormons and Muslims, for example, enjoy the state blessing of their polygamous unions as a matter of their privacy, First Amendment rights, and equal protection of the laws? Clearly, logic and precedent is now on their side.

I see in the news that a lawsuit has been filed by a gay ex-serviceman, who was discharged administratively due to his homosexuality, to upgrade his discharge to "honorable". This is only the beginning. SCOTUS has taken sides in the culture war, as Justice Scalia wrote. It did so with utter contempt of its own rulings on the value of stare decisis. This was an outlaw decision that can only lead to disdain for the rule of law itself.

Walter

Aidos

2003-07-09 20:11 | User Profile

I stand on the 'consent' argument. And I doubt that many people will want, or be advocating sex with discarded fetuses (feti) and I doubt that the age of consent will be lowered to less than 16.

I believe your statements regarding polygamy again are an attempt to deny homosexuals certain rights reserved for marriage, when what the ruling seeks to establish is parity to monagamous heterosexual marriage, not invite expansion to polygamy, bestiality etc.

I would say the uncertain future is the price of a more tolerant present, though I do not see a need to be alarmist.

golfball

2003-07-09 21:46 | User Profile

*Originally posted by Aidos@Jul 9 2003, 15:11 * **

I would say the uncertain future is the price of a more [color=blue]tolerant[/color] present, though I do not see a need to be alarmist. **

"[color=blue]tolerant[/color]" is the word! Due to the fact that Judeo-Christians have preached and teached tolerance in formerly Christian churches, the spiritual base in America is at an all time low.

God is clearly "Intolerant", to teach or preach otherwise is to lie. When I allude to the Old Testament, I allude to the foundation of the house of Israel, ( White Adamic Race ). It is well known that the house of Judah was once part of the house of Israel, but God separated the house of Judah from the house of Israel back in 2 Samuel chap 2:4 (KJV 1611).

Back to the tolerance issue, it will lead our country even further into the pits of hell and apostasy. All the while Judeo-Christians will continue to scream and preach "tolerance". This will continue to compromise whatever "Godliness" may be left. So much for living under conviction...... :unsure: The foundations for the faith of the children of the house of Israel are listed in the Old Testament. These foundations do not exist for Judeo-Christians because Judeo-Christians do not worship an Intolerant God. Our Heavenly Father has verified His will time and time again, He does NOT change,.... ever! The same intolerant God of the Old Testament is the same God we have over us today. Jesus did not say to go out and racemix. Jesus did not say to go out and be a queer. Jesus did not say to go out and be a pedophile. Jesus did say that all of these things will happen. Jesus did NOT say He would forgive the people that commit such acts. Nowhere. Zip. Nada.

We are directed as Christians to separate from Judeo-Christians and their kind that permits and tolerates that kind of lifestyle, 1 Corinthians Chap.6, and 2 Corinthians Chap.6.

Yes in these days, one can point other Christians towards the light with scripture and the meaning that is literal for all that read it. That is why scripture is included in some of my posts.

Aidos

2003-07-10 08:45 | User Profile

Pits of hell or no, your country was not founded as some sort of fundamentalist Christian nation-state. So if by your belief, it is headed the wrong way, at least you have the right to your own belief, unimpeded by the state. You just can't enforce your belief on others. That is the meaning of separation of church and state. It is interesting that fundamentalist Christians seem to advocate a theocracy of sorts, yet villify the stranglehold of the last big Christian theocracy in Europe, the Catholic church. Theocracies in general seem to be a bad thing for people historically, regardless of the founding faith, be it Judaic, Christian or Muslim. Religious fanaticism, like all fanaticism seems to engender forcing others into their belief structure. I say let them channel their energies into the personal devotions they advocate, and leave the other non-believers to their fate. I doubt the enforcement is based on love, as so many theocraticians seem to rejoice in the eventual, and hopefully eternal damnation, awaiting the unbelieving. As to Christ and racemixing, I don't believe that he specifically mentioned it, and even if he did, I am not a devout Christian, and have no intent of looking it up chapter and verse. As to your anthropological meanderings and White Adamic Race, seems like poppycock to me. If the house of Judah was separated, both houses still have their genetic and theological roots in Judaism, so all the White Supremacists here can rejoice, instead of vilifying, and re-unite with Judaism and give up their heretical Christian belief. I assume you will shortly respond with some pseudo-anthropological response, based strictly on quoting scripture, which is hardly scientifically reliable.

Aidos

2003-07-10 22:26 | User Profile

*Originally posted by golfball@Jul 6 2003, 14:50 * ** 13. If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Queers and their supporters will always be offended by a Holy God.

God clearly states that when queers are put to death, God does not consider the one(s) instituting the ultimate penalty upon the sexual deviant(s) to be guilty. **

Golfball, how is this to be construed? Are you saying that killing queers is somehow OK, as long as the murderer is waving his bible about open to the right passage? I want to understand what you meant by this post.

golfball

2003-07-11 16:50 | User Profile

*Originally posted by Aidos@Jul 10 2003, 17:26 * ** Golfball, how is this to be construed? Are you saying that killing queers is somehow OK, as long as the murderer is waving his bible about open to the right passage? I want to understand what you meant by this post. **

God said to put them to death.

Whether I think queers or their demise is okay or not does not change the fact that God said to put them to death.

What I think [color=blue]has no bearing on God's Word[/color]. You can accept God's Word, or reject it. That is your choice. You have the responsibilty to act like something a little higher on the food chain than some beast, unless of course you are a beast to start with,....

God's Word still stands with White Christians, including myself. :D

Texas Dissident

2003-07-11 17:34 | User Profile

Originally posted by golfball@Jul 11 2003, 11:50 * *God said to put them to death.

Whether I think queers or their demise is okay or not does not change the fact that God said to put them to death. **

In the old covenant, golfball.

Thank heaven for the new covenant and the saving grace of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23

Because of our inherent sinful nature, we are all under the penalty of death. Mercy, grace and forgiveness is available to every sinner through the grace of God and his son Jesus Christ who died for all of us.

As new covenant Christians, let us all be mindful of Christ's own words in Luke 6:36-38:

"Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

golfball

2003-07-11 22:23 | User Profile

Texas Dissident, I have never denied the saving grace of Christ.

Queers that continue to practice queerdom cannot and will not be saved. Just as Jews have had 2000 years to accept Christ, queers will not give up the lifestyle they so enjoy. I have not found [color=blue]even one instance [/color]in the Holy Bible where Jesus forgives queers.

If Jesus does not forgive queers, who am I to place myself above Jesus and tell queers and other sexual deviants, ( race mixers, pedophiles, ..etc ) that they are forgiven? I am not going to do that, for anybody.

The Holy Bible CLEARLY states in the New Testament that those kinds of people are not going to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

1 Corinthians 6

** Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,**

Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

Ephesians 5

Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;

And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

** Be not ye therefore partakers with them.**

For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

(For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth; )

Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.

But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.

How much more of the "New" Covenant does it take for Judeo-Christians to understand that grace and salvation does not aleve us from responsibility?

Responsibility is the word here.

God says for queers to be put to death. God DOES NOT CHANGE.

Psalms 119:89 For ever, O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven.

Malachi 3:6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

God's Word concerning queers are just as valid now as they were in Leviticus 20:13. It has not changed.

golfball

2003-07-12 00:42 | User Profile

*Originally posted by Raina@Jul 11 2003, 18:56 * ** .........

Why this huge hangup about same-sex attraction? **

To put it simply, it is wrong and unacceptable. Sexual deviancy is at best a reference to one's basest nature, and at worst, an act upon an unwilling victim. To tolerate any sexual deviancy or the people that practice such is to allow those queers into spheres of lawmaking and law enforcing areas.

Rome fell because of it's un-Godliness. America is headed down the same wee worn path.

Aidos

2003-07-12 18:09 | User Profile

Tex, I appreciate your quoting the New Testament and the Dispensation of Love.

However, I find Golfball's last post simply odious. The self-righteousness just runs over the borders. God said Jesus did not forgive any queers Well he didn't forgive any Scribes and Pharisees either, and that is what a lot of your Christo-Fundumentalist jingoistic posts sound like.

Your selectivity of scriptural quoatation is truly sickening. I hope you never stole an apple as a kid, because if I cared enough to dispute with you further on the basis of Scripture, I am sure I could find, with the help of my trusty concordance all the verses that define that you need to be killed or maimed. So does that mean the next kid caught stealing a pack of gum will be villainised here and given a death penalty, starting with 'God said...?' If not, then you do not believe your own message, and I need to find the passage that states you must be killed for not observing and honouring ALL the primitive precepts advocated in the Old Testament.

Further, I find your using of scripture to as narrowly as possible define the chosen and saved, to support your own narrow view, is really a turn off to any reader who might be tempted to be drawn to your message.

I am all for the rule of law and reason, debated in legislatures and courtrooms, with absolutely no allusions to 'God said...'

As to your comments about conversion of the Jews, too much in much of Christianity is really heretical in terms of the Old Testament. Graven images etc to name just a few. And the orignal monoetheistic message is simple, there is but one God. Elegant, simple, understandable, though of course the concept of this Godhead is beyond human comprehension. Now come the Greek philosphers accepting Christianity, and the endless christological debates, and further on those regarding the Trinity. All point to an evolution of Christianity as a religion, a synthesis over time. In other words, a construction of Man. I don't know if all fundamentalists really have a knowledge of the endless writing and debating and evolution thru church councils and church fathers that define most of what passes for Christianity today, and I mean pretty well the full spectrum of christian belief.
And again, it is largely a human synthesis. After all, Christ did not care enough to write a Gospel himself, at any time, leaving that job to apostles who did it well after his death. Somehow, this does not sound like God speaking, it sounds like reporting from the Middle East, 1950 years ago.

Aidos

2003-07-12 18:23 | User Profile

By the way Golfball, you have again mentioned Christ somehow forbidding race mixing, a recurring theme.

Let's have it chapter and verse, if you don't mind, so all can see just how fuzzy this 'Christian' conception is. I am sure whatever it is, it will be a stretch for most christian readers to draw the same conclusion.

And here you go again. Hoover would be proud. Everyone who is a lawmaker or a judge or any figure in public life, will somehow have to recount a full biography. including a catolog of sexual likes/dislikes, to Golfball and his compadres. This of course will ensure that the US does not go the way of the Roman Empire.

So of course, now we all agree, that Golfball and his Senate of Righteous Men ( I assume no women are allowed, and you will give us a Pauline quote to back it up, leave alone the scads of verses available in the Old Testament...) will be empowered across the land, to, after their lawful election. confirm all members of State and Federal legislatures, all judges at all levels, police officers, State and City government officials.

We do have an awful high opinion of ourselves, don't we? What is it like to enjoy such prescience? Millions must be flocking to your banner...

golfball

2003-07-12 22:14 | User Profile

*Originally posted by Aidos@Jul 12 2003, 13:09 * **

Your selectivity of scriptural quoatation is truly sickening. ..........

I am all for the rule of law and reason, debated in legislatures and courtrooms, with absolutely no allusions to 'God said...'

**

"Your selectivity of scriptural quoatation is truly sickening." Yes, the Word of God is not always user friendly, is it? :lol:

"[color=blue]I am all for the rule of law and reason[/color], debated in legislatures and courtrooms, [color=blue]with absolutely no allusions[/color] to 'God said...'"

Yes, I am sure that you would be offended by laws that were enforced concerning racial segregation, anti-miscegenation laws, illegal sexual deviancy,... I know your kind. As long as Jews, queers, negroes, mexicans, racemixers and other filth continue to promote the "Progressive Values" of their agenda on America, Our Heavenly Father has turned away from the reeking cesspool America has become.

Aidos, does your god(s) accept queers? If it does, be sure to tell it that I do not care to visit it's kingdom. I do not care to be approached by the Bend-over-Billys or the Peter Pedophiles or the Ronnie and Rita Racemixers. Tell your god that since that is already here, I see no need to visit it's place. An area full of Bend-over-Billys, Ronnie and Rita Racemixers, Peter Pedophiles just is not my idea of a good place to stay. :thd:

Texas Dissident

2003-07-12 22:42 | User Profile

*Originally posted by Aidos@Jul 12 2003, 13:09 * ** However, I find Golfball's last post simply odious. The self-righteousness just runs over the borders. **

I agree, Aidos. Best estimates place the number of Christian Identity cultists at around 2 or 3 thousand worldwide. Unfortunately, most of them seem to have shown up here at OD. :angry:

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Amazing how they just throw out the words of Christ when it suits them, isn't it?

golfball

2003-07-12 22:55 | User Profile

*Originally posted by Aidos@Jul 12 2003, 13:23 * ** By the way Golfball, you have again mentioned Christ somehow forbidding race mixing, a recurring theme.

Let's have it chapter and verse, if you don't mind, so all can see just how fuzzy this 'Christian' conception is. I am sure whatever it is, it will be a stretch for most christian readers to draw the same conclusion.

**

For you Aidos, Numbers 25

And Israel abode in Shittim, and the people began to commit whoredom with the daughters of Moab.

And they called the people unto the sacrifices of their gods: and the people did eat, and bowed down to their gods.

And Israel joined himself unto Baalpeor: and the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel.

** And the Lord said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the Lord against the sun, that the fierce anger of the Lord may be turned away from Israel.**

And Moses said unto the judges of Israel, Slay ye every one his men that were joined unto Baalpeor.

And, behold, one of the children of Israel came and brought unto his brethren a Midianitish woman in the sight of Moses, and in the sight of all the congregation of the children of Israel, who were weeping before the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

** And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he rose up from among the congregation, and took a javelin in his hand;**

** [color=red]And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly[/color]. So the [color=blue]plague[/color] was stayed from the children of Israel.**

And those that died in the [color=blue]plague[/color] were twenty and four thousand.

And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, hath turned my wrath away from the children of Israel, while he was zealous for my sake among them, that I consumed not the children of Israel in my jealousy.

Wherefore say, Behold, I give unto him my covenant of peace:

** And he shall have it, and his seed after him, even the covenant of an everlasting priesthood;[color=red] because he was zealous for his God, and made an atonement for the children of Israel[/color].**

Deuteronomy 7

When the Lord thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;

And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:

Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.

For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the Lord be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.

But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.

For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, [color=blue]above all people that are upon the face of the earth.[/color]

Deuteronomy 32

Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.

My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

Because I will publish the name of the Lord: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.

** He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.**

[color=blue]They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation[/color].

Do ye thus requite the Lord, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?

Remember the days of old, consider the years of many generations: ask thy father, and he will shew thee; thy elders, and they will tell thee.

When the most high divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.

For the Lord's portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.

Jude 1

Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

** Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities**.

Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

Romans 1

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

** And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.**

Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

** For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:**

And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

** Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,**

Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

1 Corinthians 5

I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:

Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Fornicator? What are these fornicators? Lets look!

[color=red]Hebrews 12 16. Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

Esau married his wives, then lay with them. He was a racemixer! A Fornicator![/color]

1 Corinthians 10

Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand - This is in reference to Numbers 25

Galatians 5

** Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; [color=blue]Adultery[/color], [color=red]fornication[/color], uncleanness, lasciviousness,**

Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

There are MANY, MANY more Aidos. Jesus does not forgive racemixing or the bastard race children that are begotten of such unions. Racemixers and their bastard offspring will be tossed into the lake of fire. Deuteronomy 23:2 - A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the Lord.

Jude 1

Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, [color=red]giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire[/color].

ÃÅbeltÃÂ¤ter

2003-07-12 23:58 | User Profile

*Originally posted by Texas Dissident@Jul 12 2003, 16:42 * ** Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Amazing how they just throw out the words of Christ when it suits them, isn't it? **

Exactly why true christianity is for the weak. If 'christians' practice the word of their christ, you would let everyone walk all over you. You have to obey the words of your God, or not believe in him at all - their is no inbetween. If you can turn the other cheak, and be a true christian - good for you.

:sm:

Texas Dissident

2003-07-13 07:16 | User Profile

Originally posted by ÃÅbeltÃÂ¤ter@Jul 12 2003, 18:58 * *Exactly why true christianity is for the weak. If 'christians' practice the word of their christ, you would let everyone walk all over you. You have to obey the words of your God, or not believe in him at all - their is no inbetween. If you can turn the other cheak, and be a true christian - good for you. **

The falsehood first of all is the notion that the crowd does what in fact only the individual in the crowd does, though it be every individual. For 'crowd' is an abstraction and has no hands. ...the falsehood is that the crowd had the 'courage' [to do something], for no one of the individuals was ever so cowardly as the crowd always is. For every individual who flees for refuge into the crowd, and so flees in cowardice from being an individual..., such a man contributes his own share of cowardliness to the cowardliness which we know as the 'crowd'.Ã¢â¬âTake the highest example, think of ChristÃ¢â¬âand the whole human race, all the men that ever were born or are to be born. But let the situation be one that challenges the individual, requiring each one for himself to be alone with Him in a solitary place and as an individual to step up to Him and spit upon HimÃ¢â¬âthe man never was born and never will be born with courage or insolence enough to do such a thing. This is untruth.

S.K.

Texas Dissident

2003-07-13 07:31 | User Profile

Originally posted by wintermute@Jul 12 2003, 19:30 * ** So, Tex, I suggest to you that Fates have delivered up all* of the CI people to us for a reason. From Marcus Aurelius:

[color=blue]"Accept the things to which fate binds you, and love the people with whom fate brings you together, but do so with all your heart."[/color] **

Thank you for your merry voice of reason, wintermute. I too believe there is a reason for everything. Who was it that said something about being nothing without love? Probably some ancient Jew. :)

Like a loving parent, if I did not love my brothers and sisters who are erring in their understanding of the Truth, then I would not venture to correct them.

Aidos

2003-07-13 07:50 | User Profile

Golfball, thank you for your researched reply. I am amazed, at the amount of effort you took.

Howerver, I simply do not share your rigid belief structure.
I do not mean to belittle your belief in any way, however, I think we need to look at the cultural context of your OT quotes in terms of 'race mixing.' All these tribes of 'xxxxites' were Semitic tribes, ie genetically more or less the same stock. Using this as the basis for forbidding race mixing, in the UK a Scot marrying a southern Englander would qualify as race-mixing. In that context then, in the US, most whites who are 2nd or 3rd generation Americans would be conmdemned, looking at their family trees and seeing an Irish grandmother, Polish grandfather on the one side, and an English and German couple on the other. And these white ancestors would have more of an 'otherness' about them genetically than the other Semitic tribes that the Israelites encountered during the miscellaneous wars they conducted.

So why do we have these Old Testament strictures on intermarriage? I for one do not believe these interdictions on the Israelites marrying were really from God. They were the efforts of a priestly class, who did not work, or at least not much, were educated, were supported by the people, to ensure that they maintained a loggerhold grip on the Israelites thru the exercise of religious authority, and thus maintain their privileged way of life and exert undue political influence on the kings of Israel. Intermarrying and 2 or 3 generations of people of 'mixed' Semitic blood would not have been a problem for the priests, but a questioning attitude and sympathy for other religious/cultural points of view brought about by exposure to the beliefs of the other Semitic tribes WOULD have been in terms of maintaining religous orthodoxy, and thus control, of the priests over a large part of the political life of the Israelites.

For me, just more evidence of the necessity for the separation of Church and State.

That said, the truly great achievment of the Jewish religion, in contrast to that of their neighbours, was the stamping out of human sacrifice, and the substitution of animals. I do not agree with animal sacrifice, but at least it was an improvement and a beginning in acknowledging the sanctity of all life, or at least Israelite human life as the priests and prophets continued to urge wars of total destruction and enemy obliteration.

All that said, most of your quotes on race-mixing, which I already dispute as being valid, come from the Old Testament, and so seem to be Jewish, not Christian thought at best.

[color=blue]Hebrews 12 16. Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

Esau married his wives, then lay with them. He was a racemixer! A Fornicator![/color]

Now here you go again, Golfball! Going right over the edge in terms of drawing false conclusions. Esau is accused of being a profane person, not a fornicator here, or is my English that bad? And selling his birthright has nothing to do with his wives, or his 'racemixing.' Sellling his birthright is the reference of this sentence, and this has to do with primogeniture, as in Gen 25:29-34.

Interesting that in Gen 27, the whole issue of birthright comes up again. Rebecah the mother of Esau and Jacob advises her son Jacob, to get the unique, once in a generation blessing that Isaac will bestow before dying. So Jacob lies about having hunted for the food he is presenting, even invoking God in having provided him with it so quickly, lied about his identity, and receives the special blessing.

A few interesting thougths spring to my mind: 1. Selling the birthright tale almost appears to be an afterthought, to justify the lies of Jacob and Rebecah that appear in Genesis shortly thereafter. At least it provides a justification for the lie, but the web of deceit brought forth by Rebeca and Jacob is abominable in terms of deceiving Isaac, regardless. Here, it seems the Bible endorses deceit to achieve the best possible outcome for the individual, as nowhere in Genesis is this edifice of lies condemned. 2. This blessing really seems more like shamanism/talismanism, and has little to do with God. Would a just God allow the blessing to actually take effect, knowing it was being given, under deceit, to the wrong person?
3. Should not Jacob by invoking God and lying about it mean that he is struck down in the end, rather than blessed, if there is to be any justice in this situation? 3. Isaac's subsequent blessing on Esau seems to justify the unending warfare amongst the Semitic tribes, which goes on to this day. 4. Esau, despite all this deception from Jacob, is really the better man, and I would say proto-Christian. When they are to meet, Jacob sends flocks, in an effort to buy his way out of a lethal confrontation, then the women and children ahead of himself, and humbles himself before his brother, who meets him with 400 men. Esau embraces him ie forgiving his enemy! Maybe this shamanistic blessing from Isaac is really character-morals-ethics killer, that Esau should have been happy not to receive.

I do not want to bore other readers going thru all the passages you cite in this manner, but as you can see, re-reading these chapters in Genesis is edifying in making me think about the ethics of Jacob and Rebecah, despite its fortuitous outcome for Jacob, and how we should act in terms of our day to day interactions. I just do not come to the same conclusions as you do.

Perhaps now you get the jist of my thought process, in that I cannot unquestioningly accept everything written in the bible as correct, as this tale above shows inconsistency ie HUMAN FAILURE in terms of what is considered sacred scripture.
And that I believe modern Christianity in all its flavours is really a synthesis of theological thought, constructed largely by human beings over the course of thousands of years.

And that there is no end to people who use the same approach as the priests of Israel, either for control of their congregations, or influencing political debate.

That is why I believe we can only use the bible in its parts as a moral guideline, but not an absolute and infallible guide in moral, ethical, or legal questions.

Aidos

2003-07-13 08:00 | User Profile

Tex, thanks for the Kirkegaard quote. I tried to read him as a teenager, but found it very heavy going and quickly gave up.
You have aroused my curiousity, and I shall be looking for a few of his books shortly. Thanks for the mental jab.

golfball

2003-07-14 01:10 | User Profile

Aidos, I have went way off topic responding to your inquiry. These responses are best placed in the Christianity section. However, the Holy Bible is, to me, a book about the White Adamic Race and what God wants and commands for the White race only.

Yes, I can clearly see the racial aspect of the Holy Bible. The Holy Bible's Old Testament is not a Judiasic book, it is the foundations for White Christian Faith as we are descendants of Adam. That is why the Holy Bible concerns the house of Israel, the sons and daughters of Adam, the White race. When people start to poo-poo the racial and sexual responsibility outlined all through the Holy Bible, then the "Faith" becomes apostisized and corrupted. Just as we see the "Judeo-Christian" faith today. Just because Judeo-Christianity is mainstream, does not make it right. Judeo-Christianity, like Judiasm, rejects a Holy God and turns to a god that is user friendly. That is why my posts seem so offensive and odius.

Thread 7704

golfball [OP]

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ÃÅbeltÃÂ¤ter

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