← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · triskelion
Thread ID: 7508 | Posts: 4 | Started: 2003-06-20
2003-06-20 18:35 | User Profile
I raised this polinco thread from the dead in part because at least one member of this forum seems to confuse my writing here with those that talk of "twizerman", "itz coming and the charming phrase "republicunts". In large measure the thread is dated in that E.K. is long gone and unlikely to return although www.occidentalorigin.com has a very new and small forum with some of the E.K. regulars. I raised it because it has a bit of my thoughts on what is wrong with the "racist ultra" outlook which dominates the American scene and perhaps this matter has not been addressed here enough.
VNN's Tim K on E.K.
I feel the need to address this matter in part because it has been brought up here but more because it has related to numerous list members leaving/being banned as well has leading to numerous comrades inquiring about the matter and my responses to it. I should say that I don't know anything about Tim K save what I read at VNN. Some of his material is good and some, like his recent pieces on EK very negative. My comments are prefaced with my typical "VO:" while the original comments will have "TimK:" proceeding them. For those interested, the original post is at:http://www.vanguardnewsnetwork.com/jan03/letters321.htm TimK: "The EK yahoo list, which I suspect more VNN readers than myself belong to, has degenerated into the moderator heaping invective on National Alliance and Duke and the whole American scene such as it is. It's fine to criticize but to insult is not constructive, nor is merely repeating the Jews' calumnies of NA without verification of any service to anyone but them." VO: Tim K does have a point here in that a lot of comments about the American scene have been overly critical and at times abusive to American racialists at large. While I feel it inappropriate to simply say something like "anyone that supports the NA is an idiot" or tar all American racialists with the costume fetish brush as has been the case at times I do feel it is important to not pretend that which is ineffective or counter productive be treated with undue deference. However, to some extent, I am unsure how to deal with matter without offending Americans affiliated with groups that the EK list owners are critical of out side of avoiding being flat out abusive on these matters as some posts have been. Certainly, the bizarre antics of the WCOTC, Duke's defrauding his membership, the costumed farce that one sees with the various Klan groups etc. should be addressed honestly without recourse to internet rumor or personal vindictiveness. It is obvious however that a large segment of the American scene views any fundamental criticism as a personal affront and treason. Such an attitude explains in large measure why the American scene is dominated by personality cults, scandals and a lack of progress. TimK: I am generally happy that the "movement" is bigger in Europe than here, but in my mind that is probably attributable to two or three factors of which none of them are responsible for one way or another, so they need not be so self-congratulating and derisive. The factors: 1) European parliamentary systems are not winner take all 2-party systems that are formally and informally constructed to shut out any third parties. In Europe third parties take seats in every election. Here it is an infinitesimally small occurrence. Thus narrow-issue interest groups like ours find no haven.
VO: Again, Tim K as a point in that parliamentary systems are conducive to multi party systems and the American system is clearly aimed at suppressing voter choice. However, the unpleasant reality is that Europa is like the states in that elections are determined in large measure by an anti Occidental media, financial interests that actively oppose the survival of our race and that the mainstream parties that dominate European politics all realize as much and act accordingly. The fact is that in several European countries (the UK and Germany being the most obvious) the parties that are represented in parliament are solidly anti Occidental and substantially the same in terms of actual public policy positions. More importantly, most European nations, Britain being the worst, have popular vote thresholds (typically 5%) and if your party gets less then that limit you have no representation. In some case like France nationalists can literally get millions of votes and very little or no representation. It also bears mentioning that getting a substantial vote often means nothing in practical terms if your party is kept out of government by establishment parties refusal to enter into coalitions with nationalists. The fact is that parliamentarianism resists, not helps genuine opposition of any form. Of course the whole matter of electoral politics overlooks that fact that American nationalism has been stunningly unsuccessful in forming groups that effectively promote nationalism as an ideologically valid concept, fostering any sort of long term public activism or even having a simple tabloid newspaper achieve a decent circulation. Instead, they promote a simple, idealized nostalgia for the NSDAP regime, the Antebellum South or the 1950s without consideration of how to present a viable and timely racial alternative to people that are not racial conscious. Naturally, the wildly visceral attacks on all forms of Christianity and self indulgent absolutism that is the rule in racial circles in the states guarantees that they will remain marginalized. Most importantly, Tim K fails to realize that the reason populists and nationalists have popular support is because they actually have a viable ideology, policy prescriptions that flow from it and the sense to know that public perception matters. American groups seem content to point out the problems of multi-racialism, often in the most inflammatory way possible, while hoping for some ill defined societal collapse followed by some massive genocidal campaign and a hazy utopian regime arising from it all. Such rhetoric has and always will play into the hands of our enemies and convince our lansmen that nationalism is nothing more then the psychotic freakishness the media says it is. If European populist and nationalist parties were perpetually wracked with vile sex scandals, instances of petty thuggery and fraud and activism that consists almost solely of cordoned off demos, like one sees in the states, they would be consigned to the same marginal obscurity. TimK: "2) Europe is more densely populated-- far more so-- which allows for face contacts between people instead of always trying to use the goddamned Internet or drive a couple hundred miles to visit somebody. That is an obstacle constantly in our way." VO: This sounds reasonable until one realizes that nationalismlacks a strong hold anywhere in the states no matter what the population density. Perhaps after going no where for 80 years our comrades in the states should reconsider what they have been doing a bit more closely. TimK: "Furthermore, Europe is far more segregated racially than the US, with far fewer non-Whites, which allows for far more pro-White social mobility. Here if it isnt a dirty Jew professor dressing one down in the classroom, a dirty Jew lawyer hauling one into court, it's a dirty negro holding one up for a wallet, or some other non-White intruding into our private social space in a smug, self-important fashion. Do Euros have to deal with this crap day in day out? It makes it hard for less committed Whites to want to maintain the tension and conflict that racial awareness brings." VO: In point of fact a great number of European cities are rapidly becoming third world cesspits and parts of London, Amsterdam, Berlin and other European cities are swarming with aliens. Also, social mobility is far more common in America then in Europa for a lot of very complicated reasons dealing with traditional class attitudes but more so the legacy of nearly a century of social democratic welfare states. While it is true that the racial situation is worse in the states that should be an asset to your organizations in that people generally only act when confronted with a serious, immediate problem rather then some hypothetical disaster pending 10 years down the way. The fact is that racialism in the states has gone nowhere for roughly 80 years (save Strom Thurman's presidential bid in ââ¬Ë48 and Wallace's efforts in the ââ¬Ë60s) so it seems that societal conditions be they good or bad are simply not enough to make a viable dissent political movement. Basically, Tim K's argument fails here. Tim K: "3) the "NS types" that they love to criticize cleared many of the European Jews out of the way using the methods they find so unappealing. Which gives the modern Euros an opportunity to live and cohere in relative peace." VO: Here Tim's position further loses validity in that the criticisms have been leveled at those in the states that revel in a misinformed nostalgia for a movement they know very little about that simply does not have an analogous societal clime in the states and never did. In any case, the fact of the matter was the NSDAP regime was interested in racial separation rather then the weird genocidal fantasies that one hears so often in American racial circles. Further, present day Europa is not an island of peace and stability but at the point that America was at in terms of demographic decline 20 to 30 years back with far worse political repression and a far more oppressive Eurocidial indoctrination campaign led by the schools, media, governments, the EU and corporate entities. Which again goes to show that while European nationalism currently is somewhat viable our comrades in the states are continuing to go nowhere while pretending that their fundamental approach is basically a good one. Tim K: "Not to forget that NS stuff is illegal in Europe so of course the good little Euros obey the thought police and call it bad. Well I'm completely willing to forego NS icons if it gets the job done, but that doesn't mean that people inspired by the mere image of the gammadion are somehow defective." VO: Tim is wrong here on so many levels it's hard to know where to start but I'll point out that a lot more then just VNN style calls for racial violence are illegal here. In fact, a great deal of far more moderate objections to multi-racialism will get you imprisoned and that it is very common for racialists to lose their jobs and be victimized by hard left violence. In point of fact, the hard left is much more violent, far better organized and has a lot more government funding the one finds in the states. Because the homicidal left in Europa is given free reign, or even actively helped, by the state being a publically active nationalist entails more then a fair amount of physical danger that our counterparts in the states have no real understanding of when combined with the fact that gun ownership is impossible and self defense very risky in legal terms. Tim K makes the nearly universally American flaw of mistakenly thinking that National Socialism is defined solely in terms of Hitler's NSDAP rather then realizing that the ideology predated that movement by several decades and that European nationalism has an extremely long and varied history which makes it absurd to identify national aspirations solely with a regime that lasted 12 years. My own homeland is one of the younger ones in Europa and we have a national identity that stretches back to the 700s. The idea that we, or most nations in Europa, should have as our sole role model an expression of German nationalism that doesn't reflect several aspects of our character is simply moronic. I have relatives that gave there lives serving in the Pan European Legionnaire movement in the ââ¬Ë40s and I am thankful for their example of sacrifice and honour. Yet it simply makes no sense to pretend that what worked in Germany in the early ââ¬Ë30s is applicable to any part of Europa today let alone the states. The mockery of what the NSDAP stood for by segments of the American scene today has given us nearly 60 years of proof about what does not work. Given the ridiculously low levels of public activism with racial circles in the states inspite of having far less legal restrictions then we do it seems preposterous to have an American criticize us for being subservient. Over here, it is rather common to have the political police harass and arrest nationalists for language far tamer then what one sees on numerous political sites or community activism of the kind I have described in the past on VNN. I have always been up front about my form of racialism and simply accept that the violence, financial hardship and legal troubles are part of expressing views that you deem to be kosher yet the enemy realizes is a threat. If I or anyone else here, where inclined to resort the rhetoric of VNN in public, assuming it was legal, we would be as fully marginalized as the American racists are. I and most racialists in Europa do what we do not just because we don't fancy being in jail any more then is necessary but also because we know what doesn't work as evidenced by the American scene. Tim K: "I don't think it's any coincidence that you see a higher rate of "virulent antisemitism" and "NS" stuff here than in Europe because it appears there are more Jews here than in Europe." VO: The mere fact that groups like the WCOTC, NSM, ANP and boards like VNN are found only in the states proves that last statement wrong in practical terms. In any case, a great number of Europeans are anti Jewish in that they object to Jewish control over their nations yet they don't blather on about "danglestein " and "tweezer man" because such rhetoric sounds psychotic and helps reinforce the establishment's claim that racialists are nothing more then murderous freaks. The fact that American rallies never muster more then a few hundred attendees and often far less then 50 pretty much says that your doing something seriously wrong. Tim K:"Also, is it any coincidence that the place where Jews were most assimilated in Europe, and were quite numerous, was also Germany. See any parallels?" VO: The vast overwhelming majority of jews never assimilated beyond learning the language of their host nation. In Europa, nearly all jews are quite open about being different then the rest of us which likely explains why anti Jewish activism has been a near constant feature of European politics for longer then your country has existed.
Tim K: "I'm not posting this at EK. I never post anything there. If they're smart enough they'll find it on VNN. Meantime I do believe I will unsubscribe." VO: If you have something to say but can't be bothered then you have little basis to complain when your view point is not well represented.
Latter at: [url=http://www.vanguardnewsnetwork.com/jan03/letters325.htm]http://www.vanguardnewsnetwork.com/jan03/l.../letters325.htm[/url] Tim gives us this morsel: "Not yet having delisted myself from the arrogant EK group, I was given a double whammy upon checking my alternate email box when I found both Harold Covington openly spreading the noxious opinions he normally spreads under pseudonyms, combined with a dazzling repetition of condemnations of Matt Hale as a clown etc." VO: I have some serious concerns about Covington and the list owner has complained about his use of multiple pseudonyms yet so far Covington seems to be sticking to the North West Migration idea rather then personal attacks which is fine with me. When Hale chooses to pull moronic stunts like have his followers show up in costume, use a ridiculous Latin title or flee to an Indian reservation thinking that he can avoid the corrupt jew run court system he should expect to be called a clown. Tim K: " To top things off somebody said something about Iraqis being more Aryan than American Whites."
VO: The EK list has almost 300 members, some of whom say stupid things like what you mentioned, yet it should be obvious that whom ever made that post was speaking only for himself. I don't suffer the delusion that everything said on VNN represents the site's views as a whole and I suggest that you look at EK like wise. Tim K: "Amazing tomfoolery there and endless pissing on "extremists" who are allegedly so beloved by the system that the system inexplicably goes far out of their way to shut extremists up." VO: I don't recall seeing anyone claim that the freakish elements of the American scene are beloved by the system. Such a statement would be wrong and on that we should agree. However, I will maintain if one behaves badly in fashion that the way the system claims all racialists act they are helping the system unintentionally rather then our noble cause of the 14 words. Tim K: "But I guess I'm a low IQ defective extremist so how could I understand?" VO: Mischaracterizing those you don't agree with does make you appear in a poor light as you suggest. So does giving unqualified endorsements to failed leaders, methods and organizations while ignoring their glaring short comings. Tim K: "Don't waste your time. VNN gets all the European headlines worth seeing anyhow, and they haven't even been keeping up on that as of late, so busy criticizing Duke and anybody else who's come into LE sights." VO: Plenty of worth while news stories never make it into English so your claim that VNN has everything worth seeing is wrong. The on going tribulations of Duke, Hale et al is covered on pretty much all racial boards including the VNN letters. What is different is that most American racialists are perfectly happy to give unquestioning allegiance to racial celebrities regardless of how ineffectual or corrupt they are and will tolerate no one that contradicts such an attitude. As I have said already, some of the criticism made at EK were excessive and counter productive. The same can be said of a great deal you and many others say at VNN. In any case, EK is not a news site so much as it is a forum for covering Eurocentric ideology, traditional Occidental culture, and means to advance them in the real world. I commend VNN for the fine material it provides and condemn them for the lunatic crap they promote as well. Your case would have been better served if you avoided the sweeping denunciations you condemn in others and recognize that which EK has to offer that is meritorious as such. Tim K: "What a bunch of kahn-servative types schmueling around." VO: You started out by saying "it's fine to criticize but to insult is not constructive" and then state that EK as a group are traitors and jew like making you a hypocrite. Your pronouncements that EK are somehow sellouts and jew like for pointing out the glaring short comings of organizations that have been colossal failures while attacking European nationalists as not being responsible for their successes is untruthful, divisive and counter productive. Such notions are regrettable as American whites deserve far better then what their racial leaders have provided but it seems that nothing will change.
2003-06-26 04:57 | User Profile
I'm pretty suprised that this thread has gotten no attention as supporters and critics of the VNN style are here. It seems to me that plenty of valid points about the U.S./Europa political climates are dealt with in some detail so hopefully, something useful was learned by a few.
2003-06-26 22:38 | User Profile
*Originally posted by triskelion@Jun 25 2003, 22:57 * ** I'm pretty suprised that this thread has gotten no attention as supporters and critics of the VNN style are here. It seems to me that plenty of valid points about the U.S./Europa political climates are dealt with in some detail so hopefully, something useful was learned by a few. **
Triskelion, I am largely in agreement with you. One reason american white nationalists fail to see the error of their ways is because they have no clear goals or criteria by which to judge success. They always claim to be making progress and growing but nothing concrete is ever accomplished.
Even if you don't believe it is possible to "win" by means of the ballot, at least electoral politics gives an indication of what percentage of the population supports our movement.
As you note, white nationalists in america can't even produce a decent tabloid newspaper. There is no broad attempt to contest elections. David Duke ran for president in 92. There is a member of the New York City school board who is openly pro-white. Non white nationalist Pat Buchanan ran for president in 2000 and recieved a derisory result after choosing a black running mate, kicking white nationalists off his campaign and denouncing "racism."
2003-06-27 19:59 | User Profile
It seems that your right about racial types lacking criteria from which to judge success. This short fall seems to have two basic causes. The first is the silly hopes for the current order to miraculously fall a part followed by an unspecified racial insurrection sweeping the good guys into power followed by something wonderful but never specified. The other is a lack of ideology resulting in utopian nostalgia (ex. "Lets bring back the ââ¬Ë50s/Third Reich/Confederacy") or simple wish lists confused for a policy program (ex. "lets stop the NWO, make the nation all white again, restore the constitution etc.) rather then get serious about what they want and why. Decades of failure combined with paranoia have made racial groups consider any suggestion of criticism as treason further distancing them from any chance of appealing to anyone in society at large. This has produced the false opposition of miscegenation friendly, jedeo-centric non racialism promoted by the likes of AR and like minded groups going nowhere by design.
The upshot is that serious ideological thinking has to be done and it has to have logical policy prescriptions flowing from it that are intelligently marketed. Without worth while ideas meaningful action can not be encouraged. The inaction and irrelevancy of the American racial and paleo-con scenes demonstrates that pretty clearly.