← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · Alka
Thread ID: 7432 | Posts: 14 | Started: 2003-06-17
2003-06-17 15:42 | User Profile
[url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/serbia/article/0,2479,979094,00.html]http://www.guardian.co.uk/serbia/article/0...,979094,00.html[/url]
One wonders why Serbs enjoy so much support. I conclude that the vast majority has been suckered by relentless pro-Serbian propaganda. The tide is turning, though.
2003-06-17 17:07 | User Profile
Alka, I reckon you're not pro-Serb?
I, for one, support Serbia's right to nationalism, supported the great efforts of Slobodan Milosevic and despise to a high degree the actions taken by the United States against that sovereign nation, destroying it and multiculturalizing it. I also regard the illegal trial of Milosevic for alleged and false "war crimes" as despicable and disgraceful and clearly fixed.
One standard for yoooos another standard for the White world.
2003-06-17 17:24 | User Profile
I am proudly pro-Hrvat. That is not necessarily anti-Serb. I support the arrest and trial of Serbian war criminals regarding their crimes against Hrvati. The rest, who cares.
Slobo should be drawn and quartered, not for crimes against Albanians, but for what he did to Hrvati and his fellow Serbs. Too few know the truth about the disintegration of Yugoslavia and the Balkan Conflicts which erupted as a result. Yes, the US intervention against Yugoslavia was a sham: yes, Slobo's trial for crimes against Albanians is an insult: but his wrongdoings against Hrvati and Serbs are indisputable.
A pro-Serb stance is sadly altogether too popular and politically correct for my tastes. You need only browse Free Republic to confirm that the masses once again have stampeded toward the politically correct propaganda of the moment.
You would do well to remember that the Israelis (and Jews in general) are fanatically pro-Serb. Despite the historical facts. Bear that in mind. There is a reason for that.
But, those fifteen minutes are just about up; it is high time for the truth to reappear.
2003-06-17 17:33 | User Profile
I do not understand why Milosevic is considered a Serb nationalist. All he wanted was the continuation of the multiethnic Yugoslavia. It was Tudjman who was a real nationalist as he drew Croatia out of the federation. If nationalism is seperatism, then the Serbs were the internationalists.
2003-06-17 17:37 | User Profile
Alka, I guess I'm not educated enough in Balkan politics to know every detail. However, I found and still find the US joosmedia to be heavily biased against Serbs, Milosevic and any European nationalism in general. What the media villifies so heavily makes me suspicious and I usually am sympathetic to those under the zog microscope. I found this article below to be truthful and eye-opening to the plight of Serbs. Let me know what you think of it and I appreciate any information on the Balkan situation.
[SIZE=3]Remember Kosovo? And Why You Should[/SIZE]
[url=http://www.antiwar.com/malic/m-col.html]http://www.antiwar.com/malic/m-col.html[/url]
There has been lately a great deal of commotion in the press as to whether Emperor Bush the Lesser and his satellites have lied to their people about the supposed "weapons of mass destruction," which have not been found even after six weeks of occupation and unfettered access to all parts of Iraq. As if the notion of the Emperor deceiving his subjects was something new!
Does anyone remember Racak, the "massacre" used to justify the Rambouillet ultimatum and the subsequent bombing of Serbia in 1999? Or, for that matter, the "genocide" that took place in Kosovo during the bombing ââ¬â only, it didn't? Apparently not. Nor is it remembered that even after these lies were decisively debunked, their peddlers never suffered any adverse consequences. In the specific case of Kosovo, the train of lies and abuses is so long a thick book would hardly do it justice.
What is happening in Iraq now is merely a re-run of what happened in Kosovo. Because the Empire got away with murder, literally, launching a clear war of aggression and occupation while spinning all sorts of preposterous lies about it, Kosovo made Iraq possible. Never forget that.
Even as Tony Blair was trying to lie its way out of Iraq lies, the Guardian featured a series of articles seemingly critical of British support for Imperial interventions, titled "Did we make it better?" In the segment on Kosovo, writer Jon Henley creates an impression that even as poverty, crime and violence are rampant, NATO's bombing and invasion in 1999 ââ¬â and the subsequent occupation ââ¬â is one hundred percent justified. Four years after the Operation Allied Force ended, the lies behind it persist.
Reign of Terror
On June 9, 1999, representatives of the Yugoslav government and NATO signed an armistice in a tent outside Kumanovo, Macedonia, ending NATO's 78-day air assault. Within a week, NATO troops occupied the Serbian province of Kosovo, and their KLA allies began a reign of terror that has continued ever since.
In June 1999 alone, over 250,000 Serbs, Roma, Turks, Muslims, and Jews were forced to leave Kosovo, often with little or no property. In addition to targeting Serbs, Albanians launched special pogroms against the Roma ("Gypsies"), in the best tradition of their WW2 ancestors.
In July 1999, 14 Serb farmers were murdered while harvesting their fields outside the hamlet of Staro Gracko. (An IWPR hack aptly named Fron Nazi claimed they were victims of "Serb subterfuge," even as KFOR statistics showed one Serb was being murdered every 24 hours.)
In October 1999, an Albanian mob murdered Bulgarian UN worker Valentin Krumov for speaking what sounded like Serbian.
In February 2001, a bus full of Serbs who were coming to visit their cemeteries was blown up by a remote-controlled mine. Three Albanians arrested in connection with the bombing were released by December 2001, and one "escaped" from the US fortified base Camp Bondsteel.
Throughout Kosovo, Serbs have retreated into towns and villages that have become virtual concentration camps. If they venture outside those areas, which are guarded by NATO troops and not infrequently cordoned off with barbed wire, they risk death. The most notorious ghetto has been Orahovac. Other enclaves, like Gracanica and Decani monastery, are frequently under attack.
In the north of Kosovo, local Serbs have managed to stop the Albanian takeover on the southern side of the Ibar River, in Mitrovica. Together with several towns in the north, this is the only remaining territory in Kosovo not dominated by the Albanian separatists, which has made it a target for constant attacks by Albanians, occupation authorities, and their cheerleaders.
Even Albanians have been targets of organized violence, as the terrorist KLA targeted "collaborators," political rivals and witnesses to its murderous deeds.
Albanian militants have demolished or desecrated over 110 churches, chapels and monasteries. They have destroyed hundreds of monuments and even libraries, renamed towns, streets, and the entire province ("Kosova") in an effort to completely eradicate any non-Albanian presence in Kosovo.
Reign of Lies
Reports often say all of this has happened despite the presence of 30,000 NATO troops, but the truth is, it happened because of their presence. The vast majority of attacks were never solved. Yet it is a public secret that most perpetrators are "former" KLA ââ¬â now employees of the UN-funded "Kosovo Protection Corps," commanded by the notorious KLA leader and former Croatian officer Agim Ceku.
In April 2002, two men were killed while trying to plant a bomb under a railroad track used by Serbs. They belonged to the "Albanian National Army," the newest incarnation of the KLA, declared shortly thereafter a "terrorist organization." They were also members of the KPC!
On June 3, 1999, NATO was still attacking Yugoslavia and the Alliance mouthpiece Jamie Shea gave his usual afternoon briefing. When a reporter asked if there were any indications that the KLA was prepared to be disarmed by NATO "peacekeepers," Shea responded coyly: "Well, we will have to wait and see, won't we?"
We didn't have to wait for long. The KLA entered Kosovo perched upon NATO tanks, rampaged through the province unchallenged, made a big show of handing over a handful of obsolete weapons, changed uniforms and went legit, with a UN paycheck as an added bonus.
A Deadly Message
Four years after NATO's "humanitarian war" ended, it still claims lives. UN police found the butchered bodies of Slobodan, Ljubinko and Radmila Stolic [Stolich] inside their burnt-out home early on June 4 this year. It was an ax murder sloppily contrived to look like an accident.
UN police spokesman Derek Chapelle is quoted in a June 4 Reuters report, "The people were attacked as they were lying in bed in the middle of the night. These people died as a result of a brutal beating, not a fire." At the very bottom of the article, tucked into near-oblivion, is a note that local Serbs told the reporters the Stolic family was under Albanian pressure to sell their house and leave Kosovo. That their murder was meant as a message to other Serbs is abundantly clear. But is this mentioned? No.
In fact, reporting that some 400 Serbs decided to pack up and leave town after the murders, Agence France-Presse never once mentioned possible perpetrators of the attack, let alone the motive. Official American propaganda carried the same story, but focused on dismissing Serb concerns about their security, and again, never even hinted at the obvious identity of the murderers. These are but the latest examples of an ongoing pattern of denial and obfuscation, pervasive throughout the Imperial media when it comes to reporting on Kosovo.
Murders of Serbs by Albanians were initially excused as "revenge attacks," implying some sort of "payback" for Serb atrocities. But as the attacks continued and atrocities accusations became increasingly impossible to substantiate, a new euphemism was created: "ethnic violence." This implies that Serbs and Albanians are attacking each other. Yet no one can cite a single case of Serbs wantonly attacking and murdering Albanians in these past four years. Not one! When Albanians suffer violent deaths in Kosovo these days, it is at the hands of other Albanians ââ¬â members of crime syndicates or "former" KLA (often one and the same).
Spin the Murder
The Stolic family was murdered again ââ¬â this time metaphorically ââ¬â when the politicians took the stage. UN Viceroy Michael Steiner claimed the Obilic murders were "clearly aimed at stopping reconciliationââ¬Â¦ a perfidious crime which was directed against multi-ethnicity in Kosovo." What reconciliation? What multi-ethnicity? What planet does Steiner live on?
Kosovo Albanian "prime minister" Bayram Rexhepi issued a statement expressing condolences to the Stolic family (!) and termed the murders a "criminal actââ¬Â¦ directed against the stability, peace, and prosperity of Kosovo and its future."
But of course! Why hasn't anyone thought of this before? All these brutal murders, abductions and massacres are really a sinister plot to make the innocent, victimized Kosovo Albanians look bad and ruin their future of peace, prosperity, multi-ethnic democracy and independence! Why, the dastardly Serbs must have massacred themselves!
Official Serbian news agency cites an interview UNMIK spokesman Simon Haselock gave BBC radio, where he is quoted as saying that "no police force in the world is capable of protecting every family and every individual" and that the security situation in Kosovo has lately "improved dramatically."
Like the rest of NATO apologists ââ¬â to be fair, this is actually his job ââ¬â Haselock uses the diminishing frequency of attacks to claim improvement. But that attacks on Serbs now happen once a month instead of once a day has largely been a function of the diminishing number of Serbs, not the diminishing desire of Albanian segregationists to attack them.
The platitudes of Steiner and Rexhepi and Haselock's tautological nonsense are trying to divert attention from the realities of the occupation. Kosovo Serbs and other ethnic groups are targets of an organized, systematic Albanian campaign of ethnic cleansing, aimed at creating an ethnically pure, independent Albanian Kosovo. Sounds familiar? That's because this was an accusation leveled at the victims, the Serbs, by the Albanians and the Empire in an effort to preclude their defense.
Good Riddance
On the eve of the murders in Obilic, Viceroy Steiner announced he would be quitting the job at the end of June. Kosovo Serbs should bid him good riddance. From his first act in office ââ¬â forging a unified Albanian political front ââ¬â to his most recent prevarications, Steiner has pushed the occupied province on the road to ethnically cleansed independence. However welcome his departure may be, one must remember that Steiner was never the real problem.
Conceived, established and perpetuated by violence, the occupation of Kosovo is itself the greatest enemy of peace, liberty and prosperity in the southern Balkans.
Bloody Hands
Many opponents of the Kosovo war supported George W. Bush in 2000, fooled by the neocons' loud opposition to the bombing, which was nothing more than opportunistic posturing, into believing Kosovo was "Clinton's war." But Bush the Lesser has made no changes to Clinton's policy in Kosovo ââ¬â or anywhere in the Balkans, for that matter. And why would he? It was Kosovo that made Iraq possible: both illegal, illegitimate wars resulting in equally illegal and illegitimate occupations, not to mention the toll in destroyed human lives and property, or the destruction of social and cultural heritage.
Senator Joseph Lieberman, who would like to be Emperor after Bush, said in 1999 that the blatantly fascist KLA was "fighting for American values." Lieberman came close to being elected vice-president in 2000, and this statement was never held against him. There have been several proposed resolutions in the Congress supporting the independence of Albanized Kosovo, but not one ââ¬â not one! ââ¬â demanding an end to the occupation. Today, Kosovo is an issue almost forgotten in the American political discourse, even though the United States is chiefly responsible for the current state of affairs in that Serbian province. Empire's hands are drenched with blood of the massacred and tears of the dispossessed.
It is not surprising that those who should be ashamed of their actions have forgotten Kosovo. But those who care about honor, justice and liberty have every reason to remember.
ââ¬â Nebojsa Malic
2003-06-17 17:47 | User Profile
Kosovo is a different thing entirely. Kosovo is and has always been Serbian. I fully support the right of Serbs to their ancient homeland. If you want to waste everyone's time whining about the Kosovo situation, go ahead. Personally I'm sick to death of it.
Furthermore the crap regarding Kosovo is not the only crisis that the Balkans suffered although it seems to be the only thing North Americans seem to be able to remember. Why that is, who knows, personally I think there is something about the NA psychological makeup which makes NAs so vulnerable to propaganda.
IMHO there is too much pro-Serb propaganda. The media is heavily biased against Serbs in Kosovo (pro-Albanian in this regard) but apart from this the Serbs enjoy substantial Jewish protection and support. Don't believe me, go to any Jewish websites and read the lies about how the Serbs were the Jew's best friends and protectors during WWII. Bullshit.
Read something about Bleiburg, or even the article I posted on Vukovar above, and then get back to me.
It is truly disheartening how many know so little about the Balkans. If you believe what you are and have been told by others, then you don't know the truth. You have to search for it, like gold.
2003-06-17 18:00 | User Profile
So Alka, why is the United States seeking immunity from the ICC in the Balkan countries? What did we do over there in Yugoslavia that was so bad?
"Blatant hypocrisy," said Human Rights Watch in New York on Tuesday of the US policy towards former Yugoslavia. [url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/yugo/article/0,2763,975476,00.html]http://www.guardian.co.uk/yugo/article/0,2...,975476,00.html[/url]
Once the mass media starting equating Serbs with Nazis, that did it for me. I couldn't take seriously any further news reports on the situation over there.
2003-06-17 18:15 | User Profile
You're still talking about Kosovo and Muslims. When you want to talk about the disintegration of Yugoslavia and the Slovenian/Hrvatski situation, get back to me.
The USA cared not one whit when the Serbian tanks rolled through Slovenia and Hrvatska and did nothing until Clinton decided to make the Arab fundamentalists happier by supporting the Albanians & Muslims.
Notice in your own article the Slovenians and Hrvati are rejecting pressure from the USA. Why is that? Does it even occur to you to wonder about that? Does it register?
I wonder about your (and many others') Serb-centric attitude. The Serbs are not the only people in the Balkans and they are certainly not the only ones who have had wrongs committed against them. And the Serbs are no martyrs or shining innocents.
Nobody in the Balkans is completely innocent. However to support the Serbs unconditionally is to ignore (and support) their role in the disintegeration and degeneration of the region.
2003-06-17 19:06 | User Profile
AntiYuppie, I'd respect what you had to say more, if not what for a quick Internet search with the keywords "Serb" "Jews" "friends" turns up. Why don't you try it sometime and see for yourself. The action by the USA against Yugoslavia was motivated primarily out of complete ignorance and PR.
You have bought into the Serbian-Jewish propaganda machine, my friend.
I wonder if you even know of the existence of the Jewish-Serbian Friendship Society? Read one of their propagandist statements here:
[url=http://www.human-net.org/war-issue/en/akcije/ajews.htm]http://www.human-net.org/war-issue/en/akcije/ajews.htm[/url]
On a side note, what is a Croat? I am not a Croat. My ancestors are and were not Croatian. That misnomer is a foreign mispronounciation of our ethnic name and I find it incredibly insulting.
I am a Hrvat. We are Hrvati. Our land is Hrvatska.
Know us for who we are, not for what you have been told we are.
2003-06-18 21:51 | User Profile
*Originally posted by Alka@Jun 17 2003, 12:06 * ** On a side note, what is a Croat? I am not a Croat. My ancestors are and were not Croatian. That misnomer is a foreign mispronounciation of our ethnic name and I find it incredibly insulting.
I am a Hrvat. We are Hrvati. Our land is Hrvatska. **
Hrvat to Croat is what Russkie is to Russian and Polak to Pole :sm:
2003-06-18 23:48 | User Profile
Originally posted by Alka@Jun 17 2003, 15:06 * *AntiYuppie, I'd respect what you had to say more, if not what for a quick Internet search with the keywords "Serb" "Jews" "friends" turns up. Why don't you try it sometime and see for yourself. The action by the USA against Yugoslavia was motivated primarily out of complete ignorance and PR.
You have bought into the Serbian-Jewish propaganda machine, my friend.
I wonder if you even know of the existence of the Jewish-Serbian Friendship Society? Read one of their propagandist statements here:
[url=http://www.human-net.org/war-issue/en/akcije/ajews.htm]http://www.human-net.org/war-issue/en/akcije/ajews.htm[/url]
On a side note, what is a Croat? I am not a Croat. My ancestors are and were not Croatian. That misnomer is a foreign mispronounciation of our ethnic name and I find it incredibly insulting.
I am a Hrvat. We are Hrvati. Our land is Hrvatska.
Know us for who we are, not for what you have been told we are.**
**I am a Hrvat. We are Hrvati. Our land is Hrvatska.
Know us for who we are, not for what you have been told we are.**
I take no sides between Serbs, Hrvati, and such. I wish the U.S. had left all of you alone to work things out amongst yourselves, as free and proud nations do. Beyond that, to me, you're all White Europeans so I'd hope that in the words of Rodney King, "can't we all just get along?" ;)
About the use of the words Hrvat, Hrvati, and Hrvatska. I'd always used Croat, Croatian, and Croatia. I didn't know that was offensive, and I'll try to remember to use your terms instead. At least in writing, since I have no clue how to pronounce "Hrvat" out loud. Of course, now I'm worried that your nemeses, the Serbs, are also going to tell me they're not to be called "Serbs" but something else. Then I'll have two passionate ethnicities gunning for me.
Please know that "Croat" and "Croatia" and the like are not "foreign mispronunciations," and certainly were never intended as an insult. I think your request to us to use the terms "Hrvat" and such is a little unreasonable, though--even though I'm willing to do it to accomodate you. What I think you're asking us English-speakers to do is to use the terms in your native language, taking those as the only legitimate terms. That's like me asking the Mexicans to refer to the United States as the United States instead of "Estados Unidos" when they're speaking their own language. If Mexicans are speaking Spanish, then that's what they call it. In their language, the United States are the Estados Unidos. There's nothing wrong with that and it's not an insult. Of course, I'd be much happier if all the Mexicans relocated south of the border...they can call the U.S. whatever they want.
Same thing for Germany--you don't see jamestown and Leland Gaunt demanding that I always refer to Germany as "Deutschland." If I were speaking German here instead of English, then it would make sense for me to say "Deutschland" rather than import in the English term. In other words, stick to the confines of the language you're using.
In the interests of amity, though, I'll make an exception and use the term in your own language.
2003-06-19 17:10 | User Profile
Leland Gaunt, I have to confess, I do feel a general prejudice, but I don't think it extends to hatred. It's more a state of suspicious confusion. Like how you would regard a car hood that has a inexplicable tendency to crash on your head unexpectedly while you're checking the oil.
Simply put, I don't understand a people who seem to have been so hell-bent upon wiping us out. Now I know that sounds extreme, but if you read the history you'd know about the terroristic "Serbification" of the Hrvati. Cultural differences, significant linguistic differences, all these were almost eradicated as a result of an intense Serbification campaign. This is why today there seems to be so little difference between us when once there was so much rich heritage... A heritage deliberately destroyed and oppressed no less. It is similar to suppression of Russian culture by the USSR.
*edit: I believe it deserves mention that even Serbs generally do not know much about the above and will (for the most part) angrily deny this history. Whether this is due to willful ignorance, or political brainwashing, I'm uncertain.
**whats the use of whining around and calling people names, because they dont see all Serbs the way you want them to. **
I can only imagine the reaction some around here would have if you said this sort of crap to them when the Jewish issue is discussed. Serbs are to Hrvati what the Jews are to the rest of the world. But, what you say is forgivable (I'm a three-strikes-you're-out kind of gal) - not many know details of the history of the Balkans, and sadly still more buy into the propaganda that is sold as the history.
PaleoconAvatar: > **I wish the U.S. had left all of you alone to work things out amongst yourselves, as free and proud nations do. **
I wish all the foreign meddling in the region hadn't happened. Oh well.
I didn't know that was offensive, and I'll try to remember to use your terms instead.
You know, it's mostly just some very patriotically-minded folk like myself who react that way. And I don't normally react that way, but recently I feel that there should be more accuracy in the terms we use to identify ourselves, and I think that seems to be an increasingly shared sentiment. Value people (or not) for who and what they are.
**I have no clue how to pronounce "Hrvat" out loud. **
First, pretend you're Swedish: say "her what" [hur-vaht] and you got it. :D Serbs pronounce it just like it's written. Sometimes in translation it is spelt 'Srb' - very short stop pronounciation. Plurals are the same (i) (ska) (ski), etc.
That's like me asking the Mexicans to refer to the United States as the United States instead of "Estados Unidos" when they're speaking their own language. If Mexicans are speaking Spanish, then that's what they call it. In their language, the United States are the Estados Unidos. There's nothing wrong with that and it's not an insult.
Yes, I grok, but what if they prounounced America as "Boonwhipple?" Personally, I hope you'd slap 'em one upside... Translating [u]terms[/u] like states and union is one thing, getting a [u]proper name[/u] completely wrong is another. There's a difference, I think you'll agree.
**Same thing for Germany--you don't see jamestown and Leland Gaunt demanding that I always refer to Germany as "Deutschland." **
Damn, you're right. I've been such a hypocrite. From now on, it's forever Deutschland. :D
**In the interests of amity, though, I'll make an exception and use the term in your own language. **
Heck, do whatever feels right. Just don't call me boonwhipple.
2003-06-19 17:57 | User Profile
I am not very well up on Croat and Serb matters but what LG and AY said certainly have face validity which has yet been refuted. I recall on another board I used to moderate that one saw endless battles between a handful of Ruthians/Poles/Hungarians that was totally unproductive and tasted of intra-racial narcissism and pettiness. I objected to American involvement in the Balkans in large measure because of who pushed the campaign but also because American Gen. Clark came right out and said that the Serbs wanted a homogenous state and that simply could not be allowed in Europa at any cost.
I support Croats, Serbs and every other European nation (and everyone else for that matter) in attempting form a National State free from outside interference. If ask whom I support the answer is those who defend their homeland, folkways ans sovereignty against imperialism and cosmopolitanism.
2003-06-19 19:22 | User Profile
the Serbs wanted a homogenous state and that simply could not be allowed in Europa at any cost.
I have no problem with Serbs wishing to have a homogenous state (which I support for both them and us): the problem is with the Serbs wishing to cleanse other ethnicities from certain regions they have falsely claimed to be theirs.
If only the Serbs could have been reasonable, perhaps then we could have negotiated a partition of BiH between our two nations. That would have meant no mujahadeen in Europe. But, they wanted everything all for themselves, and nothing for everybody else. They received the negative attention that their unreasonable stance warranted, and the region became even futher fractionated as a result.