← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · Walter E Kurtz
Thread ID: 6625 | Posts: 42 | Started: 2003-05-13
2003-05-13 04:09 | User Profile
I haven't been on OD for all that long...but I can tell that the people here are educated, motivated, and forward thinking. This place is a real Godsend for that reason. Even though I post here sparingly, I read these boards every day.
Unfortunately, the overwhelming majority of WNs constitute a sort of isolated, utterly paranoid clique that is so hostile to any and all "strangers" that they manage to keep their number of supporters pathetically low.
An example of this phenomenon is "stormfront.org". Now I am not going to sit here and bash the entire board, as there are some solid men and ladies who post there. However, the administrators, and the majority of posters, react to new voices on the site with unbridled hostility. Either they take issue with the fact that some people have a different perspective on WN...or they levy accusations at the newbies that they are "Jews" or "Jew sympathizers". Additionally, pages and pages are taken up by topics that involve asinine subjects like "Do the Joos control Communist China?" and "Did the Joos blow up the Space shuttle".
This is to say nothing of the fact that these same people who claim to represent the WN vanguard are constantly attacking other people who claim to be WN...it is ridiculous to see men fight one another and jockey for position atop a literal "hill of beans" as these people do.
I guess what I am getting at is that many people who claim to be WNs are a bunch of disaffected, socially retarded malcontents who are no use to us or anybody else. I actually see a bright future for a reasoned form of White Nationalism...but the clowns that I discussed above are part of the problem, not the solution.
I hope that nobody on here interpreted my little rant as a personal attack...I respect all of you and enjoy your thoughts. I especially enjoy Franco's posts...despite the fact that his sympathies to National Socialism are stronger than mine, he raises good points and is tolerant of views that are different from his own.
That's all. Keep up the good work.
-Tom
2003-05-13 04:30 | User Profile
Originally posted by Walter E Kurtz@May 13 2003, 00:09 **I haven't been on OD for all that long...but I can tell that the people here are educated, motivated, and forward thinking. This place is a real Godsend for that reason. Even though I post here sparingly, I read these boards every day.
Unfortunately, the overwhelming majority of WNs constitute a sort of isolated, utterly paranoid clique that is so hostile to any and all "strangers" that they manage to keep their number of supporters pathetically low.
An example of this phenomenon is "stormfront.org". Now I am not going to sit here and bash the entire board, as there are some solid men and ladies who post there. However, the administrators, and the majority of posters, react to new voices on the site with unbridled hostility. Either they take issue with the fact that some people have a different perspective on WN...or they levy accusations at the newbies that they are "Jews" or "Jew sympathizers". Additionally, pages and pages are taken up by topics that involve asinine subjects like "Do the Joos control Communist China?" and "Did the Joos blow up the Space shuttle".
This is to say nothing of the fact that these same people who claim to represent the WN vanguard are constantly attacking other people who claim to be WN...it is ridiculous to see men fight one another and jockey for position atop a literal "hill of beans" as these people do.
I guess what I am getting at is that many people who claim to be WNs are a bunch of disaffected, socially retarded malcontents who are no use to us or anybody else. I actually see a bright future for a reasoned form of White Nationalism...but the clowns that I discussed above are part of the problem, not the solution.
I hope that nobody on here interpreted my little rant as a personal attack...I respect all of you and enjoy your thoughts. I especially enjoy Franco's posts...despite the fact that his sympathies to National Socialism are stronger than mine, he raises good points and is tolerant of views that are different from his own.
That's all. Keep up the good work.
-Tom**
Only a Jew would make the kind of post you have here.
Just kidding. :lol:
Be careful not to assume that Stormfront represents all of the far-right, or White Nationalists, or whatever you want to call this form of politics, in this country.
Many of the topics over at SF are inane fluff. Sometimes I expect to check in over there and see the topic "Pro-White Activists: What is your favorite color?"
I have to object to the idea that WNs are malcontents, though. One could suggest the same of the participants in any change-oriented political movement, Left or Right. Discontented people exist in all walks of life. How successful and well-adjusted is the average red-bandana wearing, unbathed and unshaven, sandal-clad "anti-racist" activist?
I suspect, though, that this accusation you raise is aimed more often than not at White Nationalists because of the negative stereotypes against WNs promoted by the mass news and entertainment media--media which are currently well in the hands of our opponents.
I can only vouch for myself in dealing with this topic. I do not hold the politics I do because of any personal failures or shortcomings in my life. I'm young and highly educated, and I came from a good family, an intact, middle-class home with two loving parents. I have been extremely lucky. My politics isn't about my life at all, really, or even the life of any other WN activist--discontented or not. It's about the nation and people of which we are members.
My political views came about from my reading the literature of all sides of the political spectrum, beginning when I was 12 years old. Now I'm 25. The materials I read on the "Right" side of the spectrum struck me as the more persuasive. Over time, my studies led me to embrace the White Nationalist position. One might raise the claim that some on the Right may tend toward alarmism--that things won't be as bad as they say in the year 2050 when Whites are rendered a minority in the country that was historically theirs--but that's beside the point.
The real point is that civilization is a serious thing, not to be gambled with like a casino chip. I prefer to err on the side of caution, and I think the Leftist impulses toward multiracialism and the like is simply an arrogant, humanistic, utopian experiment that is just too risky for me to endorse. I'd rather believe generations of our "unenlightened" and "racist" forefathers than some liberal social scientists and the Jewish crusaders that have gained the cultural and political upper-hand since the 1960s.
I believe more in human history, which has a lengthy record filled with instances of "group egoism" and bloody competition between various nations and tribes. "Broad-mindedness" isn't exactly a trait commonly found down through the ages. It's a recent, modern phenomenon--this makes it suspect in my eyes, because its adherents assume they are superior to all the generations that came before them, rejecting their accumulated experience and wisdom. Instead, the Left and pseudo-Right proclaim a "New World Order," filled with tolerance and equality and brotherhood and all those sickeningly sweet buzzwords. Liberals don't stop to consider that maybe there's a good reason for this state of affairs, maybe it's not a flaw to be overcome or "evolved" out of, but that it instead plays a role in holding things together and in some ways enriching human life. As Alex Linder over at VNN has rightly pointed out, it is not we White Nationalists who are the radical and dangerous ones that are breaking with American tradition, it is our opponents.
I think one solution to the problems you raise in your post is that people professing this type of politics should try to maintain an issue-oriented focus, rather than one that focuses on trivial stuff ("favorite color" threads) or on personal battles against other activists. Of course, it's easy to define the problem, but only the individuals involved can change their behavior. They have to find it within themselves to act in a mature manner and with some degree of restraint.
2003-05-13 04:55 | User Profile
First of all it should be stated that the pathetic state of WN activism is something that causes Europeans to pretty much write off the possiblity of real dissent and that the type of blather that takes up so much of Storm Front is a good example of how such attitudes develop here. One should keep in mind however that SF is run by a long time Duke supporter and that the site allows zero criticism of the progress free "movement" especially the NA, Duke and the creators. In other words, SF is quickly going to become the "88" crowd's version of the FR.
However, one sees such behavior from the neo-cons, libertarians and leftists or all types I don't think that American racists and racialists are any more defective then any other ideological clique by enlarge. The real problem is that the racialists in the states have lousy leadership, no ideological direction, no strategy for gaining power and a hostile propasphere to contend with so they remain totally marginalized. Bill White had an excellent two part article called "pathologies of the fringe" over on overthrow.com which I recomend everyone here read very carefully.
Rather then be upset by the moronic antics at SF and the sorry shape of racial organizations in America one would do much better to persue an activist agenda alone or with a few friends. If you want the details simply search my posts at polinco.com for a very detailed description on how to be an effective racial activist.
If something here is unclear feel free to ask for further explination.
2003-05-13 04:55 | User Profile
Paleocon:
I agree with you completely...and I consider myself to be a White Nationalist. I did not mean to say that ALL WNs are socially retarded malcontents...my point is that many people who claim to represent WN values are a liability.
I consider the true WNs to be men like Sam Francis, Pat Buchanan, and Joe Sobran.
I consider the "gospel" writers of White Nationalism to be Oswald Mosley, Julius Evola, Francis Yockey, Spengler, Nietzsche and others. It is greatly disturbing to me when people who claim to share my politics claim that wackos like Matt Hale or bums like Tom Metzger are "great men". These guys are two bit conmen at best, and cult leaders at worst.
I see that this movement has a strong head on its shoulders...lets cut the arse off of it.
2003-05-13 05:03 | User Profile
Triskelion:
You make some good points...however, I would say that many of the NA/Creator/W.A.R. types are a hell of a lot more maladjusted than some of the other fringe types.
How does one explain grown men who don fetishist Nazi regalia, go into the middle of small towns, and delare the start of a "revolution"?
Better yet, how about this phenomenon that is Matt Hale? This clown refers to himself as "Pontifex Maximus", talks about how he is going to take over the world by converting the masses over to his "religion" and praises a disturbed young pervert who ended his life after going on a murder spree (Ben Smith)?
It irks me to no end that when I profess my commitment to White Nationalism, most people assume that I am in some way connected to the aforementioned sociopathic clowns.
Also: the reason why the NA is stagnant...is because if anybody wants to become a member, they are subjected to a peculiar brand of paranoid antagonism, shaken down for money, and then held under suspicion for a period of time to see if they are an agent of ZOG. Is this the proper way to go about garnering support? I think not.
2003-05-13 05:28 | User Profile
** Walter Kurtz wrote:
Unfortunately, the overwhelming majority of WNs constitute a sort of isolated, utterly paranoid clique that is so hostile to any and all "strangers" that they manage to keep their number of supporters pathetically low.**
If this is true, it is because paleos, by default, said nothing about Jews and therefore marginalized all of the people who named the Jew as "haters," by default. In other words, the silence of the paleos cast the WNs into the fringe, so that the only people who embraced WN attitudes were "non-mainstream" people. Respectable people, so to speak, did not have the nerve to speak up about Jews. Silence kills, in this case...WNs became extreme due to paleo silence...
2003-05-13 06:15 | User Profile
Originally posted by Franco@May 13 2003, 05:28 **> ** Walter Kurtz wrote:
Unfortunately, the overwhelming majority of WNs constitute a sort of isolated, utterly paranoid clique that is so hostile to any and all "strangers" that they manage to keep their number of supporters pathetically low.**
If this is true, it is because paleos, by default, said nothing about Jews and therefore marginalized all of the people who named the Jew as "haters," by default. In other words, the silence of the paleos cast the WNs into the fringe, so that the only people who embraced WN attitudes were "non-mainstream" people. Respectable people, so to speak, did not have the nerve to speak up about Jews. Silence kills, in this case...WNs became extreme due to paleo silence...**
BULLSHIT. Which in your case is the SOS (Same old sh*t)
Check [url=http://forum.originaldissent.com/index.php?act=ST&f=25&t=3845&view=getlastpost]here[/url] for a concrete example of how paleo's address these issues, including the Jewish question.
Actually your paranoia perfectly exemplifies what Walter discusses.
2003-05-13 07:37 | User Profile
Hello Mr. Kurtz,
The WAR/Creator/NSM/Klan types are most certainly defective. However, I have know literally hundreds of racialists in the states that are very productive and well ajusted but I should say they have avoided the pathetic organizations that dominate the American scene. With respect to the NA I have some very extensive criticisms that I have made else where and I see no point in restating them again. Of course, I have known a few dozen NA members that are excellent people in every sense so again the problem is a bit bigger them the matter of malajusted types.
The costume freaks you mention have nothing to do with racialism as they are just hateful morons. I really don't see the point in talking about them as they are very small and incapable of effective action. If you are upset about being labeled on of them the solution is simple: make your life a living example of the life affirming virtue that genuine racialism holds. If you do so I can state with totally certainty that not only will well ajusted and decent people respect you but so will numerous lemmings become awakened to the rightousness of our struggle.
If you want to see truely defective freaks spend a bit of time talking to ARA/Black Block/Antifa/Profane Existance/Class War supporters. If you do you'll note that these people are ebtirely omposed of filth encrusted, sexually twisted, insane drug adicts of the worst sort. If you ever spend any time around neo-cons, libertarians or the radical left you will soon realize that they are every bit as sick as the Hollywood Nazi crowd but in differant ways. Again, I suggest that you look up the Bill White articles I mentioned.
If you are serious about real world activism look into the community activist material I mentioned. Complaining is a dead end but the spirit of well placed idealism produces effective activism and progress.
2003-05-13 16:02 | User Profile
Hello Walter and Triskelion and ODers. I tend to keep out of these discussions of allegiance to WN groups and the arguments for and against whichever political leaders serve WN interests for the better. I feel I'm not as passionate about the leadership of different groups as much as I'm passionate about having a decent White America free from the ugly tyranny we're presently living under ----and I don't really care how we get there----let's just get there! It ain't gonna be pretty no matter who's leading the way. Our enemies have written us ALL off. Only God knows whose evil hearts and ways should be destroyed and I have faith in His promise of "vengeance is Mine".
In any case, I think Matt Hale, Tom Metzger, Kevin A Strom, and other such leaders should not nor never be cast out as detrimental or defective. I don't support their groups with money nor do I believe everything in their doctrines--- but to write them off as bizarre, useless or cult of personalities is playing right into the hands of our arch and vicious enemies and they WILL come after us Paleos/Dissidents after they're done with the "wacko" Aryans.
Moi, I just can't condemn any man or woman who ultimately stands and/or falls for the bettering of White people in the the USA and the World. We're all in it together.
PS- PaleoconAvatar, excellent post!
2003-05-13 16:13 | User Profile
You make some good points...however, I would say that many of the NA/Creator/W.A.R. types are a hell of a lot more maladjusted than some of the other fringe types.
I disagree. The far left is quite "out of it", which is even more of a shame on them because the foundations of their philosophies are accepted and promoted in the mainstream. They are winning, but it's not enough for them. They want to push everything to the most extreme level - thus you get gay activists dancing naked and masturbating in public with the ARA tossing bricks around with vagrant gutterpunks sporting 7-inch green mohawks trying to "smash fascism" in between snorting crank and taking heroin hits.
And that's not even mentioning the radical feminist squad :ph34r:
2003-05-13 16:51 | User Profile
Originally posted by Edana@May 13 2003, 12:13 ** They want to push everything to the most extreme level - thus you get gay activists dancing naked and masturbating in public with the ARA tossing bricks around with vagrant gutterpunks sporting 7-inch green mohawks trying to "smash fascism" in between snorting crank and taking heroin hits. **
Ah, that's AmeriKwa! :afro:
2003-05-13 16:51 | User Profile
Originally posted by xmetalhead@May 13 2003, 16:02 ** I feel I'm not as passionate about the leadership of different groups as much as I'm passionate about having a decent White America free from the ugly tyranny we're presently living under ----and I don't really care how we get there----let's just get there! Obviously not everyone feels the same way.> It ain't gonna be pretty no matter who's leading the way. Our enemies have written us ALL off.** Who exactly do you count as "our enemies" ? I doubt we'd even agree on this score. In the words of the inimitable Franco "if someone does not "name the Jew" 100 % of the time, but only 95% of the time, he's the enemy."
In other words the hardcore Linderites consider US the enemy. Or at least leave that possibility very open.
Only God knows who's evil hearts and ways should be destroyed and I have faith in His promise of "vengeance is Mine". You sound like you're versed on scripture. You should know then that "not all have faith" let alone wait for his judgement.
**In any case, I think Matt Hale, Tom Metzger and other such leaders should not be cast out as detrimental or defective. I don't support their groups with money nor do I believe everything in their doctrines--- but to write them off as bizarre, useless or cult of personalities is playing right into the hands of our arch and vicious enemies and they WILL come after us Paleos/Dissidents after they're done with the "wacko" Aryans.
Moi, I just can't condemn any man or woman who ultimately stands and/or falls for the bettering of White people in the the USA and the World. We're all in it together.
PS- PaleoconAvatar, excellent post!**
What makes you think "Matt Hale, Tom Metzger and other such leaders" would be any less likely to come after us Paleos/Dissidents than the people you call "our enemies".
That's a big part of political maneuvering (war by other means, in the Clausiwitzian sense of the term) knowing who your enemies are, and knowing who considers you the enemy. Until you've determined this definitely, anything else you do or any conclusions you reach are way premature.
2003-05-13 17:29 | User Profile
**Just because disgusting and ridiculous behavior is tolerated or encouraged by the establishment doesn't excuse such behavior from white nationalists. After all, one would hope that those who represent us would be held to a somewhat higher standard than the beads and sandals crowd.
That is why I regard clowns playing brownshirt dress-up and grotesque cults such as "World Church of the Creator" as an embarassment to white nationalism. If white civilization is indeed superior to the peoples who try to destroy or subvert it, then is it too much to ask that our "spokesmen" try and act the part?
Furthermore, like it or not, the mass media's double standard guarantees that any strange behavior from "our" ranks will be covered while our more respectable representatives are generally ignored (while any amount of GUBU behavior from leftists and establishment GOP types is perfectly fine). This means that we must be on our "best behavior" so to speak so as not to provide the mass media with grist for their mills. The media villification program would not get nearly as far as it has if the most visible WN events featured well-spoken, suit and tie clad men instead of the usual gallery of clowns and thugs.**
I completely agree. I merely disagreed with the statement claiming that our rabble are more maladjusted than their rabble.
2003-05-13 17:44 | User Profile
Hey, I'm a former leftist. :(
I was a lefty as a teenager, then grew up.
2003-05-13 18:12 | User Profile
Originally posted by Octopod@May 13 2003, 11:32 ** AntiYuppie: [QUOTE]That is why I regard clowns playing brownshirt dress-up and grotesque cults such as "World Church of the Creator" as an embarassment to white nationalism. QUOTE]
**
I second, third, fourth and fifth that. Unfortunately, we have to proceed with our silly baggage, because there's simply no way of getting rid of the costume-store Nazis. I have advocated that NA ban swastikas from rallies, but log on to the Resistance site and you'll see plenty of that stuff. I'm not saying they should nix it, because rebellious teens might dig it, but it does create problems for an organization that wants to attract normal White people.
You'll also never get rid of people who simply think it's "cool" to adopt a position most others find abhorrent.
Your duty as a White Nationalist is simply to plug away. Keep moving. Ignore the sieg heiling. Present our case: Whites face a crisis and must resist their dispossession. Stay persistent.
2003-05-13 18:50 | User Profile
I think basically what Walter Kurtz is trying to say is that a sizable percentage of WNs are losers, clinging to WN ideology because it
a) gives them a scapegoat to blame their personal failures on
b ) gives them both an identity and an identity within a group - ie, a sense of belonging
But I'm interested in the concept - the perceptions - of 'losers' and 'winners'.
The person who lives in a small town - and likes it - is a 'loser'. The person who despises the small town and dreams of leaving it, and all small towns, behind forever is a 'winner'. The white person who identifies as white (let alone one who says 'nier', in any context) is a 'loser'. The white person who deliberately denigrates himself and his race in the presence of niers (for their amusement) is a 'winner'. The person who affixes a Confederate-flag decal to his bumper; the person who questions Holocaust dogma; the person who reflexively loathes homosexuals; the person who defends Joe McCarthy. All 'losers'.
Oddly enough, the feral, illiterate Negro with a predisposition for violent crime is never a 'loser', no matter how many drive-bys on his jacket or how many times he stabbed the 70-year-old grandmother with a basting fork after raping and robbing her. He is a 'victim', a 'tragedy', an 'enigma', occasionally a 'predator' or 'time bomb'....yet he never receives the type of withering, dismissive scorn that renders a Tax Resister or Holocaust Revisionist a non-person unworthy of any recognition or acknowledgment. As a matter of fact, a reverse dynamic comes into play. The person who refers to such a Negro as a 'loser' himself becomes a loser for doing so. Much like the whistle-blowing Red-baiter of the 1950s is a 'loser' (for 'ruining people's lives' via a 'witchhunt') yet the rabble-rousing Red baiters of today are 'winners' (as long as they make sure to always equate 'Stalinism' with 'Naziism'). Or the way the 'individual' - yesterday's 'winner', for standing against the status quo - is today's borderline 'loser'....now that the [u]architects[/u] of all these arcane, contradictory winner/loser rules are the status quo.
It gets "arcane & contradictory" because the larger directive compartmentalizing all these people into sub-groups is never enunciated: gentile hegemony must be subverted or destroyed. All white tradition predating WW2 & the Civil Rights era is to be mulched into a green-sepia repressed Depression memory of sweaty, brutal men, having lynched an innocent Negro, returning to their dilapidated row-houses to rape their daughters.
I've often wondered - since he is invoked almost as often as Scripture - if the one valid 21st-century Martin Niemoller analogy wouldn't begin "First, they called the militia members losers - but I wasn't in a militia, so I laughed along with the rest of them...."
2003-05-13 19:18 | User Profile
Originally posted by Octopod@May 13 2003, 13:40 > I completely agree.ÃÂ I merely disagreed with the statement claiming that our rabble are more maladjusted than their rabble.**
Ditto. Then again, I'm not sure if there's anything AntiYuppie has ever posted that I disagree with. :lol:
You will also find that our most maladjusted rabble tends to be made up of "former" Leftists. Considering the godless, feminist, anti-Christian nature of WCOTC dogma, I don't think there's anything "former" about those Leftists.
A couple weeks ago, I might not have said that. But the more I'm acquainted with the websites of the WCOTC and VNN, the more I see their drawbacks. At least in the case of WCOTC, the drawbacks appear to completely outweigh any supposed benefits.
Octopod**
I've never been a Leftist, but it's actually AntiYuppie's posts that helped make me more willing to work with the Left to the extent that they're in turn willing to put aside their own smaller pet issues. There was once a time I would never have anything to do with anything from the Left, but now I'm willing to actually vote for Nader if nothing better comes along in the next election, merely for the disruptive effect he would have on the status quo.
Both we "extreme" Rightists and "extreme" Leftists have a common enemy that we seek to overthrow: the neocon/moderate-liberal Establishment. Of course, we have different reasons for desiring this "regime change," but in several key areas our issues and goals overlap. Two examples include our opposition to "free trade" and our opposition to overseas military adventurism. No small potatoes, those issues--trade and foreign policy are key "National Question" category issues that both major parties are in lock-step on and on the wrong side of. As far as immigration policy, if I work the environmental stress/overpopulation angle, I bet I could even convince a significant number of Leftists to go restrictionist.
The important thing to realize is that America is already lost anyway--that is, the Good America, the Old America, the Real America has already died. The two major parties supposedly fight the "Culture Wars" but this is largely a farce, and I suspect these domestic battles are also intended to be a distraction to keep the public from focusing on the more important issues of trade, foreign policy, immigration, race, media control, mega-corporate abuses, etc. The so-called "social" and "economic" issues at the domestic level are useless sideshows at this point, and it's a waste to fight over these sorts of issues while the whole Ethno-National ship sinks.
Hence, I am willing to declare a truce, or even concede, these sorts of issues to the Left, in exchange for their cooperation on the bigger issues mentioned earlier. I could give a fig about tax cuts--they can keep them. Nor do I care all that much about abortion or school prayer or all that other stuff. For those social issues, I'd be willing to strike a deal with the Left: some portions of the Left are decentralist, so on those issues we can let the local muncipalities and several states decide how they'll handle those. Massachusetts will decide in ways that the Left will like, while most of the South will probably be more "pro-family," as they say. People are then free to live in the environment they feel is most comfortable to them.
In fact, I think the Left could be persuaded that ending immigration, for example, is necessary for some of their economic proposals to work. Take the national health care system the Left wants to implement--I would hope that they'd be reasonable enough to see that once such a system were in place, it would be necessary to keep immigrants from trying to access the country, otherwise the vast population of the Third World would seek to enter the country to take advantage of the free medical care. Surely the Left must have some common sense about the finite limits of the resources we have available, and that these immigrants would "sink the lifeboat."
2003-05-13 19:22 | User Profile
Originally posted by il ragno@May 13 2003, 14:50 ** Oddly enough, the feral, illiterate Negro with a predisposition for violent crime is never a 'loser', no matter how many drive-bys on his jacket or how many times he stabbed the 70-year-old grandmother with a basting fork after raping and robbing her. He is a 'victim', a 'tragedy', an 'enigma', occasionally a 'predator' or 'time bomb'.... **
Very true, il ragno. Don't forget that this hypothetical troubled Negro is also a budding rap music artist who will no doubt have a socially engaging "message" that his "music" will share with the public, as he draws from the experiences you mention. Future multicultural historians will pore over these media as "rich, authentic sources of oral history." A national treasure, he be.
2003-05-13 19:33 | User Profile
Well I guess I am a loser by your definitions, IR!
Anyway, I see the "losers" of the WN movement as losers not in the slang definition of the term, i.e. wastrels, but as losers of the literal definition. The Germans lost the war and we're paying for it to this day and beyond. This is why I have concerns with the costume fetishists identifying with noble losers. They internalize the mindset of the valiant, but doomed, opposition so well that they can't even imagine winning, much less making it a reality and can thus drag what could be the nucleus of a pro-White movement down into the swamp of despair and all of its "what-ifs" and "might-have-beens." It could be that the costumers are 1/3 ADL provocateur, 1/3 stupid and 1/3 masochists of the above stripe.
By all means, there's no need to denigrate the tenets of NS, and in fact there's a lot to admire in the economic and cultural miracle of the German resurgence of the 1930s, but there's also no need to treat NS ideals as scripture, either.
Oddly enough, the feral, illiterate Negro with a predisposition for violent crime is never a 'loser', no matter how many drive-bys on his jacket or how many times he stabbed the 70-year-old grandmother with a basting fork after raping and robbing her.
Don't forget the Carr brothers! :thd:
2003-05-13 19:47 | User Profile
Surely the Left must have some common sense about the finite limits of the resources we have available, and that these immigrants would "sink the lifeboat."
I wish that I could be so sure, PA. The left has its own sadomasochists and there seems to be no limit to the suffering they will (cause others to) endure to salve their guilty conscience at being born a honky.
The larger issue of a collaboration with otherwise ideologically opposed peoples is still a good one. Your point about agreement on core principles is something I have been mulling over of late. I guess the sticking point is what a core principle is. You named a couple, but would the left really get on board for separate living space for whites? To me, that is really the crux of the issue. There can be no advancement with the albatross of other races around the necks of Whites. Immigration restrictionism and opposition to free trade are definitely important issues, but I think even their complete implementation would merely slow our demise, not reverse the ugly demographic trends of Death of the West, for instance. To that end, I admire the stance of VNN ("Nothing goes right until we go White") even though I think at times they are needlessly antagonistic. ÃÂ ÃÂ ÃÂ
2003-05-13 19:53 | User Profile
Originally posted by Octopod@May 13 2003, 15:37 ** il ragno,
I don't think any nationalist here would have the slightest problem with affixing a big "LOSER" tag to your "feral, illiterate Negro." Likewise, many or possibly most don't shrink from questioning "Holocaust" dogma, let alone the myths of diversity. Even Samuel Francis has no problem with putting "Holocaust" within quotes in his articles. "Sammy's" not so "Canny" after all, is he? These are not the issues I -- and likely we -- have with the Hollywood Nazi crowd.
Here are some of the real issues to be had with that set.
Swastika waving is not only bad for image but also irrelevant to American (and even most European nations') identity. National Socialism, as such, is a uniquely German movement. Nazi uniforms and flags being used by Germans and Austrians, now that I can understand. In the USA, they are not just out of place but also offensive to veterans.
American nationalists, by definition, choose regalia, images, and dress that are relevant to the American experience. Men like Huey Long, Charles Lindbergh, Father Coughlin, or most of our Founding Fathers for that matter had views similar to ours about race and the Jewish question. So, why not look to those great Americans for inspiration, rather than failed and vanquished dictators? Hitler and Goebbels simply strike a sour cord with the American people, including the kind of Americans receptive to our message. The likes of Washington and Franklin, on the other hand, are excellent examples for our nationalists to emulate.
There is a not-so-subtle difference between White patriots and, well, White trash. Your typical Hollywood Nazi is the latter.
Octopod **
Octopod, I agree with you completely that we need not look to foreign sources for inspiration. As Americans, we have a rich heritage and set of experiences to draw from--this makes complete sense.
The only slight disagreement I have with your post is that you give offending WW2 veterans as a reason for rejecting Nazi regalia. There must be 1001 reasons to reject these sorts of costume parties, and as I said I fully agree with your position on this, but I can't bring myself to sign on with your "veterans" reason.
I'm no Tom Brokaw, and I don't put those WW2 vets on a pedestal. They were duped, albeit probably no more and no less than other vets who were conned into fighting these foreign wars. Also, I have to admit that I feel that those vets fought on the wrong side of WW2--although, again, that's not their fault so much since they were duped and "following orders." Of course, America should have stayed out of it completely, but the Axis wins my moral support. I wish they'd won in Europe. They at least knew how to stand up for their own people and knew how to fight hostile alien powers both internally and externally.
I assume part of your motivation for not offending the vets is largely political, but keep in mind that this particular segment of the population is pretty old now and are dropping like flies. They're a non-factor. All we really have to deal with is the larger-than-life official propaganda and Brokaw-style hucksterism. We can expect the Jewsmedia to milk that for all it's worth.
Incidentally, I notice the "noble losers" of these various wars had a penchant for wearing field gray uniforms--the Confederacy included in this country.
2003-05-13 20:01 | User Profile
Originally posted by Octopod@May 13 2003, 15:45 ** > ** I've never been a Leftist, but it's actually AntiYuppie's posts that helped make me more willing to work with the Left to the extent that they're in turn willing to put aside their own smaller pet issues. There was once a time I would never have anything to do with anything from the Left, but now I'm willing to actually vote for Nader if nothing better comes along in the next election, merely for the disruptive effect he would have on the status quo.**
As I clarified in another post, the "Leftists" with whom I refuse to collaborate are those around the ARA, ADL, and similar tendencies. I'm all for collaborating with the Naderites and other principled Leftists, where appropriate. Leftists of the Naderite stripe have very little in common with the kind of leftist that I refuse to touch. (You know, the whole left/right paradigm as used in America is woefully inadequate!) And you're right, of course, that they have more in common with us than with the mainstream Left.
Octopod **
Sure. ARA/ADL are by definition anti-White and explicitly racial in their orientation. Pretty hard to collaborate with them at any level.
2003-05-13 20:13 | User Profile
Originally posted by Octopod@May 13 2003, 14:37 **There is a not-so-subtle difference between White patriots and, well, White trash. Your typical Hollywood Nazi is the latter. **
To an extent, Octopod. I think some distinctions need to be made. I agree with most of your comments here, but let me bring up an example to illustrate why even when it comes to the 'Hollywood Nazis' we need to be careful not to paint with a broad brush.
Think about, say, a skinny white boy growing up in a poor Indiana small town. Maybe he has a Dad, maybe he doesn't. Parents probably never paid too much attention to him at all and he was left to fend for himself for his basic needs. Perhaps he had the misfortune of running into three or four black youths late one night and getting his face pounded, just for being white. Alone, alienated and abused, he happens across some literature or flyer from the local neo-nazi group. He checks it out and finds a place that accepts him and gives him a real sense of belonging. I can't fault that guy if he shows up on the courthouse steps protesting some racial issue or participating in a rally in full regalia. I can fault the leader of the group who may be manipulating these kind of young impressionable minds and driving them towards self-destructive ends, lives of bitterness and burning hatred.
What we need to build is an organization, group, something! that can reach across all the class lines and be a healthy outlet for the urban, educated professional all the way to the poorest kid living on the wrong side of the tracks. A might tall order, sure, but until such an entity exists I can't really fault the poor kid who finds some kind of belonging wherever he can for lack of any healthier alternative.
2003-05-13 20:19 | User Profile
Originally posted by MadScienceType@May 13 2003, 15:47 ** Your point about agreement on core principles is something I have been mulling over of late. I guess the sticking point is what a core principle is. You named a couple, but would the left really get on board for separate living space for whites? To me, that is really the crux of the issue. There can be no advancement with the albatross of other races around the necks of Whites. Immigration restrictionism and opposition to free trade are definitely important issues, but I think even their complete implementation would merely slow our demise, not reverse the ugly demographic trends of Death of the West, for instance. To that end, I admire the stance of VNN ("Nothing goes right until we go White") even though I think at times they are needlessly antagonistic. ÃÂ ÃÂ ÃÂ **
I agree with you. The goal is obviously racial separation, no other measures falling short of that can save us over the long-term.
Here's how I look at it with the Left--those issues like immigration and trade may not seem like the "big enchilada" of the race issue, but what I'm looking to extract from the Left is a piecemeal build-up to the outcome of racial separation.
In order to achieve the goal of racial separation, also known as self-determination, one has to circumscribe Western Man's taste for, and contact with, the exotic. He needs to have the flow of foreign goods and peoples stopped, before it can be reversed. Before I can mop up the water on the floor, I have to shut the spigot off and try to get people to realize that the spigot need not be turned, and the floor need not be wet. This is because we live in a society that's never known a spigot that didn't flow, so to speak. We'll basically need to retrain the thoughts of our fellow citizens, and this means reconstructing all the old barriers that the multiracialists tore down.
Those piecemeal issues mentioned above help get our citizens, the Leftists included, back into the mode of thinking in terms of national and racial borders again. I think that "the Left" can be modified over time to come on board in favor of racial separation for Whites. The way to do this is to convince a critical mass of individual Leftists that they need not give up some of their values and concerns when they "sign on." For example, they are generally altruistic and want to "take care" of people, with government health care and the like. This is fine--we're late enough in the game of national survival that I'm willing to give this issue to them, we just have to get them to circumscribe the boundaries of their altruism--instead of taking care of the whole world, they can provide the same services to their own people.
There need not be any necessary connection between multiracialism and "socialist" economic policies. It is this realization that in the end will separate the Leftists we can work with from the ones we can't (Octopod's ADL/ARA style Leftists). We can't change their minds on this overnight, but we can salvage the ones that value their economic altruism more than multiracialism. I think gently prodding these people with the practical "you can't save them all, but you can save the people closest to you in this country, who have the most in common with you" might be useful.
It's been done before, the co-opting of a socialist program by a nationalist program, if you get my drift. ;) Sam Francis called this the "secret of the twentieth century" in Beautiful Losers.
2003-05-13 20:21 | User Profile
Originally posted by Octopod@May 13 2003, 15:16 You're correct. That's why I said typical Hollywood Nazi, not every Hollywood Nazi. **
Fair enough, I understand. Really your comment gave me the chance to try and pull some heart strings. That's just the Southern Baptist coming out. Quick, somebody queue up some Cliff Barrows! ;)
2003-05-13 20:37 | User Profile
** Tex wrote:
What we need to build is an organization, group, something! that can reach across all the class lines and be a healthy outlet for the urban, educated professional all the way to the poorest kid living on the wrong side of the tracks.**
Don't look now, Tex, but there is such a group/ideology already: Populism, aka Nazism, Le Penism, aka Huey Long/Gerald L. K. Smithism; aka Coughlinism; it is known by many names and comes in many subtly-different flavors.
Populism is neither "left" nor "right," as those are merely Jewish-pushed labels that hide racial issues. It cuts across all class lines and includes both [ahem] "leftist" ideas [support for labor unions] and "rightist" ideas [anti-Semitism/racism, isolationism, anti-feminism, etc.].
:hit:
2003-05-13 20:42 | User Profile
There's an unspoken component at work there, too, PA. Peer into the Jew-engineered winner/loser regimen and you are breathing in Eau de Jude.
Jews fear - in others - what they aspire to themselves. What Jews decry in gentile America, they practice at home. Apartheid. Fierce ethnocentrism. Brutal militarism. Race laws. Vigilante justice. And all in the name of racial survival.
There is no entertainment medium on Earth in which the vulgar, provincial, ugly & bloodthirsty Brooklyn Jew settler-in-Gaza, his entire shrill, comical family in tow, can be seen lampooned/dismissed as hillbillies or rednecks ....let alone viewed as demonically hateful Klan types. Could there possibly exist - by Jewish standards - a more despicably petty form of 'loser' than the Aaliyah Jews....the flotsam and jetsam of Judaism, who cover up their social & business failures in other countries by clinging to an irrational fantasy of the Holy Land 'belonging' to them by divine birthright, and scapegoating their own loser-ness on ragged Palestinian date farmers? By the Jews' own yardstick of 'winner' being defined by rootless cosmpolitanism plus the egalitarian acceptance of impoverished minorities as full equals, the Israseli settlers are the most knuckle-dragging, sister-chasing, yee-haw losers of all. I wonder why they're not commonly perceived that way. Don't you?
The Jewish winner/loser chart - besides being hypocritical - is also deeply schizophrenic. Look beyond the "Jimmy the Greek is a loser/The Carr Brothers are an enigma" example I cited above and you will see that what determines winning and losing is violent potency. That's why those segments of the public repetitively portrayed as 'losers' are utterly defanged and declawed, ie, no threat. The networks, the press, the ADL and the SPLC know full well that the Klan, the Creator-types, the brownshirts et al cannot rise up in a trice and take 'vengeance' on anybody. They're dead horses; easy to look brave while flogging mercilessly. These groups are busted valises.
Blacks - who really and truly believe that murder is like littering; it's just something you do, or don't do, but no big deal either way - they don't get the 'loser' treatment. Blacks will kill, rape, mutilate, and on the flimsiest pretexts....no arguing with those FBI numbers....and Jews fear and respect this. Hence, they are never ridiculed for sport. White Southerners - unfailingly the most decent, humane and civilized people I have ever been around - will not kill unless threatened with death. Thus they can be spoofed, insulted, ridiculed and finally calumnied as ignorant murderers.
One need only look at the popular media of 30, 40, 50 years ago or more. As Jew-dominated as it is today, yet the product reflected/refracted the simplicity and wholesomeness and whiteness of the culture, and the country. Yet that country - that culture - whiteness itself - has been shoved into a far corner with a long stick, and the people that came with them have all become 'losers'. How odd. Jews ran the media then, Jews run the media now. Yet the audience slowly became the enemy. How did it happen?
They stopped fearing us. They'd never liked us, but their fear had come out as flattery - 'assimilation'. When the 'Red witchhunts' of the 50s imploded, they saw a tiny opening, and pushed a little - and waited. Pushed a little harder - and waited. Finally, they shoved; and still nothing happened! No pogroms, no Hitler, no uprisings, no expulsions. They realized that the gentile lords of the manor they inhabited had themselves been corrupted - and thus had no stomach to do what every other landrace had eventually done to the Jews in their midst. From there on the script wrote itself. A nation that won't dominate its minorities must be dominated by them. Over time, there was no longer any need for flattery - to provide news and entertainment that reflected the needs and desires of the audience. Instead we are now surfeited in media that reflects the needs and desires of the Jewish media....and those of us who resist this are....'losers'.
Also bear in mind that - now that they know what flattery will get them (control) - the kind of Jew-media flattery you see and read these days has little to do with the old-fashioned kind, where they simply wanted to grow rich without making undue waves. Flattery is now consciously used for indoctrination & recruitment. Blacks, gays, women and Third World immigrants are flattered in media near-monolithically. The 'heartland' of America is being shamelessly sucked up to by the FOX News-types, eager to keep war fever high. Every single one of these "good Amercans" that ZOG is giving a key to The Winners' Lounge had better practice their soft landings, because behiond that door is an empty elevator shaft. The real lounge is marked PRIVATE, in Hebrew lettering.
2003-05-13 20:42 | User Profile
Tex,
You're awful nice for a New Black Panther! :D
In order to achieve the goal of racial separation, also known as self-determination, one has to circumscribe Western Man's taste for, and contact with, the exotic. He needs to have the flow of foreign goods and peoples stopped, before it can be reversed. Before I can mop up the water on the floor, I have to shut the spigot off and try to get people to realize that the spigot need not be turned, and the floor need not be wet.
An excellent point. If the citizenry can be made to see the concrete benefits of nationalism or restrictionism on even relatively small issues, they might begin to see them on a larger scale, which is the whole point. A pebble can start an avalanche and all that.
Our reach should not exceed our grasp, of course, but I think we have to walk a fine line between what is desirable and what is praticable, though again the argument boils down to how much time we have left, or how close the wolf is to the door (with apologies to il ragno for swiping that one).
Oh, and I get ya ;)
2003-05-13 20:46 | User Profile
Originally posted by Franco@May 13 2003, 15:37 **Don't look now, Tex, but there is such a group/ideology already: Populism
**
If Huey's in, I'm in. :)
Populism is neither "left" nor "right,"
National Populist Front (NPF)
hmmm....does have a ring, doesn't it?
2003-05-13 21:13 | User Profile
Originally posted by Texas Dissident@May 13 2003, 16:46 ** > Populism is neither "left" nor "right,"
National Populist Front (NPF)
hmmm....does have a ring, doesn't it? **
A Google search on that name turned up nothing, which may mean that the name is available for use.
NPF does carry a certain weight. It sounds like it could easily be included on one of the government's "official lists."
2003-05-13 21:20 | User Profile
Originally posted by PaleoconAvatar@May 13 2003, 16:13 ** A Google search on that name turned up nothing, which may mean that the name is available for use. **
Ha! Great minds think alike, PA. I googled it as well before making the post. :)
There is a npr.org. National Postal something or other, but no nationalpopulistfront.org. Probably no npfront.org, either. To my mind, that could be the ground-level umbrella organization for many right/nationalist groups and organizations. Something myself and a few others have been thinking on for some time now.
2003-05-13 21:23 | User Profile
Originally posted by il ragno@May 13 2003, 16:42 ** Jews fear - in others - what they aspire to themselves. What Jews decry in gentile America, they practice at home. Apartheid. Fierce ethnocentrism. Brutal militarism. Race laws. Vigilante justice. And all in the name of racial survival. **
Exactly right, IR. Those who control the media (and by default, the state apparatus) have the power to define "winners" and "losers" in such a way that serves their own ends. Your analysis is a perfect "History of American Dispossession." And television made it all possible. Who would have thought that a population could be so swayed away from its natural defensive instincts by a small box in the corner of the living room that pipes in pictures and sounds? Effortlessly sit in front of it a few hours a day and one's "treatments" are complete.
I'm wondering that the next major technology of this nature will be. I wonder what "virtual reality" or some form of brain-interface will do to our people. For the moment, resistance is not only still possible, it's still thinkable.
Western Man's apparent course and fate is so deeply ironic. His own science and technology turned against him. His own "noble" instincts turned against him. What is Western Man--the "adept inept," a spectacular failure?
2003-05-13 23:46 | User Profile
Originally posted by Octopod@May 13 2003, 11:58 > Hey, I'm a former leftist.ÃÂ ÃÂ :(
I was a lefty as a teenager, then grew up.**
Nothing wrong with truly being a former leftist. You've seen the light, and should be applauded for that.
The problem is with "former" leftists (note the quotes): supposed converts to the Right who retain many of the same values and views they held as overt leftists. Moreover, by "leftists" I'm referring specifically to the ADL/ARA type crowd.
Obviously, the most striking examples of "former" leftists turned faux-rightists would be in the neoconservative movement. But the "Creator" types should also be candidates for this dubious distinction. Their ideology is anti-Christian, anti-Western, feminist, radical atheist, etc.: all things normally associated with the ARA-style Left.
Octopod**
I was a Nader-votin' greenie! Then, I shed all the cultural marxist garbage and became a Buchananite and moved on from there.
2003-05-14 01:35 | User Profile
Thanks for all of the replies, people. I am glad that the OD crowd understands what I am talking about...it is refreshing to not be called a Jew/Illuminati/FBI Agent when I point out that the clowns who make up the Neo-Nazi circus are a pack of human waste.
Also:
thanks for the heads up on Bill White's website...very interesting.
2003-05-14 18:54 | User Profile
** Tex wrote, re: a populist umbrella party:
National Populist Front (NPF)
hmmm....does have a ring, doesn't it?**
There you go, Tex -- take that football and run with it. Use OD to build it up. Maybe post info about it at other BBs. The works. Set up a platform, and see what happens...
:sm:
2003-05-14 20:35 | User Profile
I must say that I agree with much of what Kurt has said. I myself have had much experience with so-called "National Socialists" and "WNs" many of whom, I must say, displayed less intelligence than the Negroes they hate. If you want to see stypidity at its finest, visit [url=http://www.aryandawn.com]AryanDawn Forums[/url]. I was banned from the place for pointing out that a moderator of partly Eastern Finnish ancestry probably has Mongoloid ancestry in response to her characterization of Russians and other Northern Slavs as "muds."
2003-05-14 22:39 | User Profile
In order to achieve the goal of racial separation, also known as self-determination, one has to circumscribe Western Man's taste for, and contact with, the exotic. He needs to have the flow of foreign goods and peoples stopped, before it can be reversed. Before I can mop up the water on the floor, I have to shut the spigot off and try to get people to realize that the spigot need not be turned, and the floor need not be wet. This is because we live in a society that's never known a spigot that didn't flow, so to speak. We'll basically need to retrain the thoughts of our fellow citizens, and this means reconstructing all the old barriers that the multiracialists tore down.
Paleocon, I think this is an interesting point. More sophisticated Whites will need to get a more sophisticated sale on this, but I think it can be done. As in, it's one thing to trek to Turkey and visit some Ottoman ruins, quite another to live next door to Salvadorans and their loose chickens. Trivial as it may sound, "neat restaurants!" is a frequent response to the "what's good about diversity?" question. More philosophically, I think it can be said that to truly respect other races and cultures requires that you respect and protect your own.
2003-05-14 22:58 | User Profile
Octopod --
Yes, to a Bircher, the Klan is "collective," and therefore "leftist." What a joke...
2003-05-15 09:18 | User Profile
Originally posted by AntiYuppie@May 14 2003, 15:11 and you know perfectly well that when the mass media needs an example of a WN "essay," they won't quote David Duke's "Jewish Supremacism," but rather Stormfront's "SiegHeil88's" piece on "Do the Joos Fluoridate the Water?"
:lol: yeah but the importnt thing is we pale-o-cosrvitives and white nationalists gota stick togethir and git the joos and negros. seig heil 14/88 LETS ROLE
Originally posted by AntiYuppie@May 14 2003, 15:11 Like it or not, if we are to ever achieve any of our aims, it will be through infiltrating the upper echelons and having our own people in elite media, government, and academic posts.
I'm still waiting for the paleos to infiltrate the White nationalist movement, or as it's otherwise known: provide leadership. I believe you've raised Buchanan's failure on this matter already.
Twenty intellectuals sitting around discussing an issue is twenty people disagreeing in twenty different ways on a subject they're in fundamental agreement on. In other words: about as much use as tits on a bull. On the other hand a leader instructing twenty ordinary Joes on the same matter is the process of creating a movement.
2003-05-16 20:23 | User Profile
I consider the true WNs to be men like Sam Francis, Pat Buchanan, and Joe Sobran.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Pat Buchanan a WN? Really? That's news to him.
2003-05-17 04:14 | User Profile
In your opinion, true White Nationalists publicly rail against the Jews at every possible opportunity in order to guarantee that they are relegated to a status of complete obscurity, it that it W.R.I.T.O.S.?
Subtlety is sometimes the order of the day, my friend. I don't think that Pat defended John Demanjick and penned "Death of the West" in order to win friends in the Establishment.
Pat is working to remove the taboo from certain subjects in public discourse...he is attempting to do this from within the system. This is how changes are made. Not by blitzkreig assaults that are doomed to failure.
I am sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but guys like Linder are not accomplishing jack or sh*t with their internet rants...Buchanan is actually having a substantive effect. (i.e. many Whites who read his books are moved to adopt an ethnic political identity).
2003-05-17 10:49 | User Profile
**This means that we must be on our "best behavior" so to speak so as not to provide the mass media with grist for their mills. The media villification program would not get nearly as far as it has if the most visible WN events featured well-spoken, suit and tie clad men instead of the usual gallery of clowns and thugs. **
This thread certainly won't help dispell the growing perception that Paleos are - at heart - Democratic men, critics of fashion magazines, hedgers of "majorities" and Believers in media-stream.
WN are portrayed badly, because that is the intent. Suits and ties have little to do with it.
Discredited regimes are overcome with boldness, not "best behavior."