← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · Franco
Thread ID: 6548 | Posts: 36 | Started: 2003-05-07
2003-05-07 23:05 | User Profile
[color=red][SIZE=3]VNN A Zhid Plant? Ha![/color][/SIZE]
There are people at OD, and other BBs, who have suggested that VNN is a plant by Jews to discredit the entire White movement. I've read the posts. Just read one today, in fact, here at OD. The suggestion was mild, but noticable.
The fact of the matter is that there is no way VNN could be such a plant. What VNN advocates [always naming the Jew] is THE WORST POSSIBLE SCENARIO FOR JEWS. If every White in America stood up one day and said, "No! I am not keeping quiet about Jews anymore! I am going to name the Jew, each time! Without fear!," any guesses as to what would happen? HymieBoy would have to pack his bags BUT QUICK! His goose would be cooked!
There are many, many more Whites than Jews -- that is the Achilles Heel of the Jews. As soon as enough Whites name HymieBoy in public, in print, each time, every time, Oy!! In fact, triple-oy!!
The worst possible thing to happen to Jews would be that Whites adopt VNN's attitude. Let us hope that the whispers about VNN's "legitimacy" cease once and for all.
2003-05-07 23:22 | User Profile
I find it hard to beleive that anyone thinks that VNN is a tool for the enemy. I agree that such talk is counter productive and unfounded. Obviously, VNN has some positive aspects that I have addressed else where.
The unaviodable reality is that VNN's high Alexa ratings have not had any discernable impact upon real world activism which is what matters in the long run. The uncomfortable truth is that the violent rhetoric and vulgar tone of much of the material found on VNN has not and will not be the basis of a viable racialist movement as the present state the American racial scene clearly shows.
2003-05-07 23:29 | User Profile
Ultimately, there's really no way we'll know for sure, one way or the other. Given the history and current state of the various groups and organizations that comprise that particular movement, well, let's just say that skepticism is a natural reaction.
But, to your reason why it cannot be a front/plant, I believe the evolutionary psychologists and others of similar views have maintained on numerous occasions the argument that even though individual jews proffer views that seem to be diametrically opposed to the jewish group as a collective, they still are working to further the overall group or collective aims on some level.
Maybe mwdallas will jump in and explain again how it works.
2003-05-07 23:52 | User Profile
I posted this image in the "Kristol Klear" thread. Hooking people, getting some of the sleep out of their eyes is the way to bring them to a full awakening. There are ways to work the jew and the 'elites' into the picture. Going about it like the guy in the picture below is not one of them. Neither is making sure a sheeple's first exposure to reality is through VNN. The automatic responses brought on by years of brainwashing take some time to be overcome. Give 'em something less harsh before moving them on to the harder stuff. I don't think many here regard VNN as a plant.
[img]http://www.whiterevolution.com/images/alamopic5.jpg[/img]
2003-05-08 00:42 | User Profile
Originally posted by Franco@May 7 2003, 23:05 ** There are people at OD, and other BBs, who have suggested that VNN is a plant by Jews to discredit the entire White movement. I've read the posts. Just read one today, in fact, here at OD. The suggestion was mild, but noticable.
**
Chill.
The VNN thing just gets out of hand from time to time.
At the same time this is America. Idealistic folk such as yourself need to remember the following facts:
---- In the 1960s both the Civil Rights (sic) and antiwar movements were heavily infiltrated by government screws.
---- At the Chicago riot during the Democratic convention in 1968, one out of five demonstrator was a government screw -- local, state or federal. (Army intelligence admitted this 10 years after when Carter declassified lots of stuff.)
---- Not a single incident of union "terrorism" was committed without help from your government to discredit legitimate union organizers. Both Henry Ford and Andy Carnegie saw to it that their opponents were well-paid.
---- White nationalism? Half the people who worked with or for George Lincoln Rockwell were FBI plants and some put the number far higher. (See George Thayer, The Farther Shores of Politics.) An investigation of the racial militia following the Oklahoma bombing showed most of them worked for various government agencies. The only question is which government -- it came to light after the dust cleared that Elohim City's "ordnance expert" was a German national who speaks... fluent Hebrew. (That was Andreas Strassmeir, probable Mossad operative who infiltrated US skinheads.)
It gets worse. History buffs have already heard of the Lincoln-Booth-Rothschild connection. There's more. (Good place to start: A. Ralph Epperson, The Unseen Hand.)
The US Government creates smoke and mirrors and wheels within wheels. Suspicion is natural and probably healthy. I would guess VNN enjoys the publicity paranoia is bound to give them, but it's okay to be paranoid in America because America is paranoid. Sorry. It's the truth.
2003-05-08 00:54 | User Profile
Ragnar, how about the purported links between Richard Lawrence (who attempted to assassinate Andrew Jackson) and the Rothschilds? Or as some of the papers of the time put it; powers in Europe. All Jackson wanted to do was get rid of the 'central bank', the Bank of the US - The Federal Reserve of its day.
Realistic approaches are needed.
VNN is too shocking for most of the uninitiated.
2003-05-08 01:07 | User Profile
I felt sure it was a Fed sting when I first encountered it. And if it is a Fed sting,hurray! * VNN will be the first worthwhile expenditure of taxpayer monies in years. When was the last time the govt told people the truth *about anything?
Now here's a novel suggestion: enough with VNN for a little while. Read it.... don't read it....do some-f**kin'-thing witcha self, like they used to say back in the old neighborhood. I'm all VNN'ed out right about now.
2003-05-08 01:39 | User Profile
Someone mentioned that VNN tars all jews with the same brush as the Zionists and this true. It is also true that jews have extraordinarily levels of internal cohesion and that how they act in societal terms is driven by conceptions of what ideology best serves jews in aggregate. As such neo-conservatism, social democracy and Bolshevism are/were supported by jews to the extent that the ideology is seen as an effective means of advancing their racial interests. American paleo-cons and libertarians don't like to acknowledge this reality because: 1) doing so will end one's career which is far more important to most then principle 2) Racial realities contradict the dogma of atomistic individualism and the notion that free markets and Western civilization can over come the demographic oblivion facing us. In the end, the broad sweeping condemnations of Jewry is correct but the way that VNN expresses that truth is to my mind primarily counter productive in terms of advancing the cause of racialism.
TD suggests that VNN might be a false flag operation yet offers zero evidence to support his conspiracy theory.
Others say that VNN is a non entity yet ignore the fact that it is doing as well as any paleo-con site and better then most. Mr. Batty is right that the costume fetish freaks are going nowhere and they never will which supports my contention that the abusive style of VNN is largely counter productive as does the pathetic state of racialism in the states.
This thread and the whole VNN issue here has become just a series of repetitious assertions rather then a fruitful exchange of ideas. The parties it seems have given zero acknowledgment of the valid points made by either side or my more centrist position so it seems best to simply stop hoping for a productive exchange. As a result, I see no reason to continue with the thread.
2003-05-08 02:29 | User Profile
Trisk, no disrespect intended, but you're walking in on a long-running low-level guerrilla skirmish here. Even if this horse weren't dead, my arm's tired from flogging it.
If you plumb through the OD archives, you can find a number of more substantive VNN-based dialogues. I think everybody's a little exhausted of it by now. I know I am.
2003-05-08 02:46 | User Profile
Originally posted by il ragno@May 7 2003, 22:29 ** Trisk, no disrespect intended, but you're walking in on a long-running low-level guerrilla skirmish here. Even if this horse weren't dead, my arm's tired from flogging it.
If you plumb through the OD archives, you can find a number of more substantive VNN-based dialogues. I think everybody's a little exhausted of it by now. I know I am. **
For quite a while now there's always been a "VNN" thread running somewhere on this board, either on its own thread or sort of a subtheme within other threads. I wonder why it keeps rising to the surface for people to pick over?
Interesting thing is that this sort of thread at this board and others would focus on the happenings at Free Republic. It would seem that FR no longer "overshadows" debates and discussions with the same intensity as it used to--VNN is closing in on replacing FR as "The Other Site."
Of course, half of these threads wouldn't exist if certain posters (not you, il ragno) weren't posting what amount to "commercials" advertising for VNN here. Not that I necessarily have anything against VNN, since I'd rather have 500 VNNs than even one Weekly Standard site, but it's just that by now I think we all know what VNN's URL is, what its editorial policy is, etc. We know where to find it, and lots of us read it already anyway, so why all the hoopla over it?
2003-05-08 04:01 | User Profile
** PaleoconAvatar wrote:
Of course, half of these threads wouldn't exist if certain posters (not you, il ragno) weren't posting what amount to "commercials" advertising for VNN here.**
Hey -- I heard that!
You'll come around to our way of thinking, Paleo. All of ya will......[sinister laugh]. Just a little more time...
:sm:
2003-05-08 04:15 | User Profile
Originally posted by triskelion@May 8 2003, 01:39 TD suggests that VNN might be a false flag operation yet offers zero evidence to support his conspiracy theory. As Franco I think was referring to my post on page 7 of [url=http://forum.originaldissent.com/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=4394&st=120]Welcome to OD#2[/url] of accussing "VNN of being a Zhid plant" starting another VNN thread which even VNN fan Il Ragno thinks is starting "to beat a dead horse" I should explain myself.
My original remark was in the context of discussing Linder and VNN's tiresome attacks on Sam Francis, aka Canny Sammy, for "not naming the Jew". The transparent insinuation of all these attacks on moderate nationalists like Francis is that these people have obviously made some sort of covert deal with Jewry and the establishment, gaining at the bare minimum at least some mainstream respectability by making some deal with the Jews, written or unwritten, formal or informal, to hold back in criticizing them. This is done of course just by insinuations based on the content of his writings - with absolutely no corraborative evidence ever given.
The obvious "logic" of these people is that purity in the WN movement is solely a function of one's shrillness in "naming the Jew". Ideological purity and loyalty becomes simply a manner of outdoing one's competitors in shrillness and repititiveness.
I was just pointing out, taking the devil's advocate, that shrillness, repititiveness, and crudity are not necessarily any guarantees of ideological purity and loyalty, far from it. One can make arbitary unfounded accusations and insinuations as in one direction as the other, with just as much if note more justification. It's interesting to hear how the people who constantly dish it whimper when they have to take it.
Now I don't read Linder or his followers much except second hand on this forum, but I know they can make a good argument, and do on occasion. When they get into the mode of discussing Francis and the moderate WN's though they often remind me more of just a dog barking, who thinks somehow he will obtain the attention he wants just by the constant cacophony of his voice.
**This thread and the whole VNN issue here has become just a series of repetitious assertions rather then a fruitful exchange of ideas. The parties it seems have given zero acknowledgment of the valid points made by either side or my more centrist position so it seems best to simply stop hoping for a productive exchange. As a result, I see no reason to continue with the thread. ** Exactly, it's just like trying to reason with a barking dog behind a fence. One realizes one must just go inside and shut the door, and wait for the dog to tire and start looking for a bone to chew.
I sometimes wish we could have a little barking dog emocion, and insert it whenever the subject of VNN comes up, replacing the whole silly post. To me, a dog lover however, that just seems too much like the cruel practice of debarking a dog. Occasionally though I see exactly how one could lose one's patience with irritating dogs and wish this on them out of spite alone, to say nothing about one's peace of mind.
Goodnight. Woof Woof.
2003-05-08 04:23 | User Profile
Originally posted by Franco@May 8 2003, 00:01 ** > ** PaleoconAvatar wrote:
Of course, half of these threads wouldn't exist if certain posters (not you, il ragno) weren't posting what amount to "commercials" advertising for VNN here.**
Hey -- I heard that!
You'll come around to our way of thinking, Paleo. All of ya will......[sinister laugh]. Just a little more time...
:sm: **
"Come around to 'our' way of thinking?" Where will I "come around" to, since I've already been published a number of times at VNN both under the Karl Kammler name as well as under my own real name? [My admission here isn't revealing any 'state secrets,' since various 'antis' over at Free Republic are already well aware of my own identity and its link to the Kammler identity].
I thought Il Ragno already touched on this issue with you earlier: there's a time and a place for different messages and styles of presentation, so it makes no sense to badger the Original Dissent posters when they already agree with you. Remember IR's line about "naming the Jew...okay, then name him louder?" He was right. This is ridiculous.
What more do you want?
2003-05-08 07:24 | User Profile
** PaleoconAvatar wrote:
What more do you want?**
I guess I want paleos to realize what the Jews know: that this culture war of ours is SOLELY a RACIAL movement, not 50% political and 50% racial as most paleocons think....that is not snotty hyperbole, that is just plain fact. The paleos spend half their time talking about Ron Paul and his ilk, and also, moaning about how Alex Linder is mean...
Hell, we got 100 million Whites in this country who could lay waste to any Jew or Brown if they had the mind to, but instead we are arguing about whether Linder's message turns off Sally CutiePie Homemaker and her cute wittle vote at da polls -- Sally who doesn't have a !$#*&?! clue....if that's not a sick joke, what is? Are we Republicans, or Nationalists?? I'm a Nationalist. Again, no snottiness, just fact.
2003-05-08 14:43 | User Profile
Hell, we got 100 million Whites in this country who could lay waste to any Jew or Brown if they had the mind to, but instead we are arguing about whether Linder's message turns off Sally CutiePie Homemaker
Franco, dahling, that's the point. They don't have the mind to right now. Therefore, Linder should stop acting like "Canny Sammy" is holding everyone back from some glorious White Revolution. "Canny Sammy" happens to be useful in getting people to take the baby steps towards having a clue. Want to know who slowly changed my worldview towards racialism from full-blown liberalism? "Canny" Buchanan and "Canny" Taylor. Sure, I'll read some of Linder's stuff once in a while now that I'm already on this side of the fence. I don't have a problem with anything he does besides attacking moderates who are good at reaching out to people who aren't in the tent yet. I happen to think it's pointless and the result of an urge to be a big fish in a very little pond.
2003-05-08 15:17 | User Profile
Originally posted by triskelion@May 7 2003, 20:39 TD suggests that VNN might be a false flag operation yet offers zero evidence to support his conspiracy theory.
With all due respect, triskelion, no evidence is required because I did not make the suggestion you claim. All I said was that ultimately one has no way of knowing. Further, I pointed out the quite obvious fact that historically the racialist movement here in the States is thoroughly infiltrated by government spies and provacateurs. Therefore, suspicion in these matters is a normal reaction for the wary and wise. Lastly, my point about Jewish evolutionary psychology was made to counter the main point Franco was using to support his argument.
I just wanted to clarify that and thank you for the opportunity to make myself more clear.
2003-05-08 15:35 | User Profile
Originally posted by Franco@May 8 2003, 03:24 **> ** PaleoconAvatar wrote:
What more do you want?**
I guess I want paleos to realize what the Jews know: that this culture war of ours is SOLELY a RACIAL movement, not 50% political and 50% racial as most paleocons think....that is not snotty hyperbole, that is just plain fact. The paleos spend half their time talking about Ron Paul and his ilk, and also, moaning about how Alex Linder is mean...
Hell, we got 100 million Whites in this country who could lay waste to any Jew or Brown if they had the mind to, but instead we are arguing about whether Linder's message turns off Sally CutiePie Homemaker and her cute wittle vote at da polls -- Sally who doesn't have a !$#&?! clue....if that's not a sick joke, what is? Are we Republicans, or Nationalists?? I'm a Nationalist. Again, no snottiness, just fact.*
I agree with you--it's true that if you watch what the Jews and the organized Blacks say and do, all of their political decisions are really motivated by their racial interests, and their chief racial interest right now seems to be about sticking it to Whitey. You can set your watch by it, it's that predictable. It indeed does boil down to race--about which one is going to call the shots in this society, and even which one will live and reproduce, and which ones will be pushed under. That's the way it always is, and I agree that some people tend to lose track of "the basics."
I wish the 100 million Whites you refer to would wake up and recover the will to act to make a nation for themselves again.
The only thing that gives me some concern here is that your posts seem aimed at increasing the degree of separation between the "moderate" paleos and yourself as a Nationalist.
For example, saying things like "Don't worry paleos, you'll all come around...". You may have intended that as humor, but some people are going to take it seriously and feel like they're being threatened or coerced. They might have come to see things your way, but because you phrased it the way you did, they're now going to purposely keep you at arm's length just to maintain their own sense of individuality and dignity. If you tell someone "I'm coming to alter your political thoughts, resistance is futile," they're going to make it a point, on principle, to resist something that seems alien and hostile. Perhaps a more subtle approach can open more doors?
Think about it...we both have ties to VNN. I assume you're a National Alliance member, as was I, since I suspended my membership for financial reasons. [I was also involved with the Council of Conservative Citizens and attended their national conference in June of 2001--I took a "coalition approach" to "right-wing" groups, a lot of them interconnect and have overlapping members.] Your approach is more confrontational on these boards, to be sure. On the other hand, I've tried to focus on my commonalities with the people I've met in cyberspace. I thought it was more productive to try to reduce the degree of separation I referred to earlier. That way, people might be more inclined to listen to my perspective or recommendations about an issue, because they don't perceive me as being so different from themselves. I've been operating under the assumption that one gets more with honey than with vinegar.
About the Ron Paul thing...if you look at it the right way, Ron Paul can be useful. He's an opponent of the status quo, as are you. Anything that can disrupt the status quo is useful, it increases the velocity and entropy in the system and creates a greater range of flexibility for Nationalists to act. The more political disruptions and unusual electoral upsets that can be made to occur, the more space for change is created, and the less control the Controllers have. That's a pool of potential that one day more "radical" elements may be able to draw from.
2003-05-08 17:40 | User Profile
Hello TD,
Thank you for your clarification. As I lived state side for several years (going to various Universities) I have followed the "American racial scene" and the problems you describe are a big part of it and major aspect of why the "movement" in your country goes nowhere. The solution to this problem is the promotion of a viable racialism rather then a neutered paleo-conservatism as flawed and as incapable of progress as the Hollywood nazi set which so many in the states do. I know this is a bit vague so please read over the "failure of paleo conservatism" thread but note that my points are not directed at you as I am not familiar with your outlook.
As to VNN it should be said that as it is a website that is doing some real good inspite of it's serious flaws it is wrong to suggest that it may be a false flag if you have no evidence of such. I say this because as long as one doesn't get caught up in the advocation of violence or provide personal information to a website the potential downside is zero. Your caution makes more sense with real world organizations then it does a site because physical contact is required with actual rather then virtual groups. If someone were to suggest that O.D. was a false flag with zero evidence I'd ignore it inspite of the fact that a great many conservatives (ex. Buchanan, Burnham, Buckley, the Birchers etc.) either were or acted in such a manner while serving the interests of the enemy.
My way of dealing with VNN is to encourage those that promote a viable, genuine form of positive racialism to write articles and letters designed to demonstrate a better way then the ultra radical and indefensible rhetoric one sees on that site. The fact that VNN allows people like me that object to so much of their outlook an uncensored voice indicates to me that the possible treason you fear is unfounded.
Your other point is well taken.
2003-05-08 20:19 | User Profile
**PaleoconAvatar wrote:
I agree with you--it's true that if you watch what the Jews and the organized Blacks say and do, all of their political decisions are really motivated by their racial interests, and their chief racial interest right now seems to be about sticking it to Whitey. You can set your watch by it, it's that predictable. It indeed does boil down to race--about which one is going to call the shots in this society, and even which one will live and reproduce, and which ones will be pushed under. That's the way it always is, and I agree that some people tend to lose track of "the basics."**
Yes! Yes! This is what many paleos fail to grasp. Those paleos are far too caught up with "left-vs.-right" to realize that everything hinges on race. Immigration? Race. Leftism? A movement created by Jews, so again, race. Feminism? A movement created by Jewish women, e.g. Abzug, Friedan, Steinem, so race again. Crime? Largely minority-caused, so mostly-racial. The decay of our culture? Hollywood/the media = Jewish-led.
Each time, the nugget is race, race, race. Too bad most conned-servatives -- and also paleos but less so -- can't figure that out. They post long items at BBs about Trafficant and Tom Delay and others, while The Jew has his eye on the ball: race. The Jew panics when someone calls him a Jew-by-race because they just played the race card -- oy. Call a Jew a leftist and he doesn't give a damn. Call his ethnicity and he begins to sweat. Why is that?? :D Guess.
The Jew is the master of playing the race game, of couching issues in ways that hide the racial nature of those issues. For example, a Jewish magazine writer will say that, "in the 1960s, the Left gained power, and conservatism took a backseat in America," etc. Nope! Sorry! Instead, the Jewish-created Left waged war on the non-Jewish, traditional American culture to such a degree that traditionalist White voices were muted. And, the Jews used Blacks as deadly scrap-loads, fired at Whites with high velocity. The whole thing HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH POLITICS, BUT WITH RACE.
"Leftist?" Ha! You mean "Jewish." The "Civil-rights" movement?" Yuk-yuk! You mean "the Jewish-created NAACP and the Jewish-sponsored/led Freedom Riders attacking White culture in the South." Time to start saying that, folks. It's all about DNA and genes.
[And, yes, I was largely kidding with the gruff "you paleos will all come around" talk -- but some of that was not kidding. I think many paleos WILL come around, when the crap gets too deep, so to speak].
2003-05-08 23:16 | User Profile
Originally posted by Franco@May 8 2003, 14:19 ** The Jew panics when someone calls him a Jew-by-race because they just played the race card -- oy. Call a Jew a leftist and he doesn't give a damn. Call his ethnicity and he begins to sweat. Why is that?? :D Guess.
The Jew is the master of playing the race game, of couching issues in ways that hide the racial nature of those issues. For example, a Jewish magazine writer will say that, "in the 1960s, the Left gained power, and conservatism took a backseat in America," etc. Nope! Sorry! Instead, the Jewish-created Left waged war on the non-Jewish, traditional American culture to such a degree that traditionalist White voices were muted. And, the Jews used Blacks as deadly scrap-loads, fired at Whites with high velocity. The whole thing HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH POLITICS, BUT WITH RACE.
"Leftist?" Ha! You mean "Jewish." The "Civil-rights" movement?" Yuk-yuk! You mean "the Jewish-created NAACP and the Jewish-sponsored/led Freedom Riders attacking White culture in the South." Time to start saying that, folks. It's all about DNA and genes.
**
Franco, you mean they're not a religion?
Kidding aside, you are right. Every group except whites looks at situations from a racial point of view. When whites get really, really uncomfortable, they'll wake up. I see it happening in S. California, finally. While most of these whites aren't aware of the dynamics behind what is happening, they are uncomfortable, they are trying to find out why, and they are taking some action into their own hands. Baby steps for sure, but it has to start somewhere. I don't send anyone to VNN right away. That can blow up in your face. I was stunned when I first came upon it. But as I gained more knowledge, the shock wore off. We need whites to realize we are at war. A race war. Right now the weapons used are in the mind. But that will change, the way things are going.
2003-05-09 16:15 | User Profile
God bless all jews.
Here are some 'Glitzy' New York jews at the Glitzy parties. I wish I had six sons so they could fight and die in Iraq for these ' Special people '