← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · Zoroaster
Thread ID: 6490 | Posts: 13 | Started: 2003-05-05
2003-05-05 12:05 | User Profile
[url=http://www.forward.com/issues/2002/02.10.18/news3.html]http://www.forward.com/issues/2002/02.10.18/news3.html[/url]
Christians Hail Rightist's Call To Oust Arabs FORWARD STAFF WASHINGTON ââ¬â Thousands of Evangelical Christians waving Israeli flags cheered last week as Knesset member Benny Elon called for the "relocation" of Palestinians from the West Bank into Jordan.
The enthusiastic crowd at the annual convention of the Christian Coalition in Washington also cheered House Majority Whip Tom DeLay, who urged activists to back pro-Israel candidates who "stand unashamedly for Jesus Christ."
Elon, whose Moledet Party advocates the "transfer" of Palestinians to Arab countries,said that a "resettlement" of the Palestinians is prescribed by the Bible.
None of the other high-profile speakers echoed the call for transfer by Elon, a former minister of tourism in Prime Minister Sharon's government and head of the Moledet Party. But they joined him in opposing American and Israeli plans for a Palestinian state ââ¬â a position well to the right of most American Jews and Jewish organizations on Middle East issues.
The cheers for Elon and DeLay highlight potential pitfalls in the burgeoning political alliance between Jewish pro-Israel activists and evangelicals. While large gaps still divide them on the domestic front, both camps have been working together with increasing comfort on Israel-related issues.
Still, while American Jewish groups have staked out hawkish views on Israeli security issues since the start of the intifada, most organizations fall far short of endorsing the concept of a mass expulsion of Palestinians. Yet Elon received an enthusiastic response when he quoted from the Bible in an attempt to justify the idea.
"If that's what he said, then it is something that should be unacceptable," said Kenneth Jacobson, associate national director of the Anti-Defamation League. "We have criticized that position before and will continue to do so. That's not what the State of Israel is all about."
Jacobson stressed that ADL welcomed and encouraged the evangelical community's show of support for Israel. But, he added, "This kind of thing should have been rejected as soon as it was said."
Several prominent figures who spoke at the event, including DeLay, Jerusalem Mayor Ehud Olmert and Christian Coalition founder Pat Robertson, did so before Elon took his turn at the podium. Since the rally, however, none have criticized Elon's call for transfer.
Olmert has rejected the idea of transfer in the past. But, when contacted this week by the Forward, a spokeswoman for Olmert said the mayor would not be commenting on Elon's speech. "The mayor participates in numerous events with numerous speakers, and therefore does not see himself obligated to react to each of their statements," the spokeswoman said.
The mayor, she said, works diligently and equally for the well-being of Jerusalem's Arab and Jewish populations. Therefore, she added, any question regarding his position on transfer "is obviously irrelevant."
The Israeli embassy in Washington also declined to react to Elon's comments. But an Israeli official in Washington said that the government does not endorse Elon's positions. Also, the official pointed out, Elon does not represent the government of Israel.
The Texan was slammed by the National Jewish Democratic Council, which warned that statements like his push for Christian candidates "threaten the atmosphere of religious freedom that our nation is founded upon."
"There should be no religious litmus test before choosing which lever to pull in the voting booth," said Ira Forman, executive director of the Jewish Democratic group. He added, "When it comes to the inclusive, heterogeneous nature of American society and the inherent dangers of religious exclusivism, Tom DeLay still does not get it."
A spokesman in DeLay's office rejected the claim of religious exclusivism, citing many occasions when the Majority Whip spoke out in favor of religious tolerance. The spokesman declined to comment on Elon's remarks.
During his speech last week, Elon quoted from Chapter 33 of Numbers, in which God tells Moses that the children of Israel are mean to inherit the land of Canaan. God then instructs the children of Israel: "Ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you... But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you, then shall those that ye let remain of them be as pricks in your eyes, and as thorns in your sides, and they shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell."
Drawing loud cheers from the audience, Elon said, "I know, we always have to be politically correct, but it is very, very complicated to be politically correct when you have to correct so many political mistakes."
To correct such mistakes, said Elon, an Orthodox rabbi, "Let's turn to the Bible, which says very clearly... we have to resettle them, to relocate them, and to have a Jewish state between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean."
Another Texas Republican, House Majority Leader Dick Armey, made a similar argument in May, during a television interview with Chris Matthews on CNBC.
Israel's government declined to send an official representative to the rally. Instead, it was decided that Olmert, a senior member of the reigning Likud party but not a member of the cabinet, would represent Israel. Olmert fired up the crowd by saying he had come "from the city of God, the place which God made the capital of the Jewish people more than 3,000 years ago," and vowing that the undivided Jerusalem will remain the eternal capital of the Jewish state.
Elon, who was not participating as an official representative of Israel, thanked the crowd "in the name of the people in Israel."
A spokesman for the Christian Coalition, Ross Torossian, said that Elon had been invited as a representative of the Moledet party, "which maintains very close contact with the coalition." He said that many other Knesset members were invited as well, but declined to participate. Torossian refused to comment on Elon's message of "transfer." He declined to indicate if the coalition endorses it or rejects it.
However, a senior official of the Christian Coalition said that the organization was well aware of Elon's ideology when it sent him an invitation. The invitation, he added, was sent not despite of Elon's ideology, but because of it.
Although the Israeli government did not authorize a senior government official to address the coalition's gathering, the Foreign Ministry, Tourism Ministry and Israeli embassy in Washington all had booths at the convention.
Robertson was the main speaker during the pro-Israel rally, which ended the three-day annual convention. He lashed out at Yasser Arafat, accusing him of having "killed or deported the vast percentage of the Christian population in Bethlehem." Robertson said that "the Palestinian Authority, right now, in my opinion, are a group of mafia-like thugs, who have been imported from Tunisia, and really, Palestine has been occupied by Yasser Arafat and his thugs. We cannot turn that nation over to them."
Dismissing the legitimacy of the Palestinians' claim to the land, and particularly to Jerusalem, Robertson said that "the Palestinians are really Arabs who moved there a few decades ago. Their claim to that land really does not go back very far such as it is," while the claim of the Jews goes back thousands of years. The Temple Mount, he concluded, "belongs to Israel, not to the Palestinians."
The most significant characteristic of this year's Christian Coalition convention was the attempt to graft foreign-policy issues onto the organization's traditional domestic conservative agenda. That fusion of a conservative domestic platform and a hawkish foreign policy agenda was well expressed in the introductory statement of Roberta Combs, national president of the Christian Coalition.
"Our Road to Victory conference will be the largest pro-family event in America, as Christians will don armor for the war on terrorism," Combs said. "We will call on America to safeguard our institutions by returning to the true teachings of the Bible. We will pray for reform of our nation's soul by casting aside abortion, pornography, drugs and other manifestations of moral decline... we set out an agenda to affect social change in America, and want to let the terrorists know that they will not win."
====================================================== Hitler never used organized religion to hype the conquest of his "master race."
Pat Robertson and his Christian Coalition are lower than whale sh*t.
2003-05-05 14:29 | User Profile
Lord almighty. Talk about your jews in sheeps' clothing. When's the Second Coming? Jesus seriously needs to come back and kick some heretic ass. :gun: :hyp: :gun:
2003-05-05 21:03 | User Profile
Drakmal,
Your comment brings to mind a conversation I had with my brother years ago, in which we agreed religion, say, genuine Christianity, was simply too good for most humans. Heretics like Robertson, DeLay and the Christian Coalition freaks proves the point.
We were raised by fundamentalists, Nazarenes, but it never took with me as it did with my brother who is 14-years younger. I've become a free-thinker with Gnostic tendencies while my brother is a regular churchgoer. I believe he and Tex would have a lot in common, neither are Christian Zionists, both seem to be following the right path.
My mother did not hate Catholics but she would often say, when I was a child, how awful it was that the Catholic Church did not permit lay people to read scripture. Today, when we see how heretics have taken Darbyism and the Scofield Reference Bible and, together with indespensible aid of Zionist media bosses, appear regularily on the one-eyed Jew to confound the teachings of Christ, we can understand exactly why the Catholic Church did not allow lay people to read scripture.
Only low-IQ lemmings or souless opportunists would confound the message of Christ with Zionism and modern-day Israel. Organized Christianity is in serious need of another Reformation.
2003-05-05 23:06 | User Profile
**The cheers for Elon and DeLay highlight potential pitfalls in the burgeoning political alliance between Jewish pro-Israel activists and evangelicals. While large gaps still divide them on the domestic front, both camps have been working together with increasing comfort on Israel-related issues.
Still, while American Jewish groups have staked out hawkish views on Israeli security issues since the start of the intifada, most organizations fall far short of endorsing the concept of a mass expulsion of Palestinians. Yet Elon received an enthusiastic response when he quoted from the Bible in an attempt to justify the idea.
"If that's what he said, then it is something that should be unacceptable," said Kenneth Jacobson, associate national director of the Anti-Defamation League. "We have criticized that position before and will continue to do so. That's not what the State of Israel is all about."
Jacobson stressed that ADL welcomed and encouraged the evangelical community's show of support for Israel. But, he added, "This kind of thing should have been rejected as soon as it was said."........
The Texan was slammed by the National Jewish Democratic Council, which warned that statements like his push for Christian candidates "threaten the atmosphere of religious freedom that our nation is founded upon."
"There should be no religious litmus test before choosing which lever to pull in the voting booth," said Ira Forman, executive director of the Jewish Democratic group. He added, "When it comes to the inclusive, heterogeneous nature of American society and the inherent dangers of religious exclusivism, Tom DeLay still does not get it."
A spokesman in DeLay's office rejected the claim of religious exclusivism, citing many occasions when the Majority Whip spoke out in favor of religious tolerance. The spokesman declined to comment on Elon's remarks.**
Amazing. The Christian Coalition goes out of its way to grovel at the Israel lobbies feet and endorse even the most extreme positions, and the whole lobby obviousaly benefits from it and basically approves of it, and its plans for Jewish supremacism, even though it has a few pro--formadisavowals of the most extreme elements. Yet it still continues to dump on the Christian Coalitions domestic policy with equal enthuisiam.
It reminds me of that old saw the Black Panthers insulting white liberals who give them money - the more you insult them, the more guilty they feel, and the more money they give.
You remember that old Russian proverb "I will urinate in your face, and you will call it holy water". To Coalition dispensationalists Jewish urine must truly be counted holy water, and getting sh*t upon must truly seem like manna falling from heaven"
Robertson was the main speaker during the pro-Israel rally, which ended the three-day annual convention. He lashed out at Yasser Arafat, accusing him of having "killed or deported the vast percentage of the Christian population in Bethlehem."
:lol: What does Robertson think would happen to the Palestenian Christians under Elon's plans? What a hypocrite, feigning concern for the fate of the Palestinian Christians.
Pat Robertson and his Christian Coalition are lower than whale sh*t.
Actually I think they worship it. :dung: :dung: :dung:
2003-05-05 23:22 | User Profile
Originally posted by Okiereddust@May 5 2003, 18:06 To Coalition dispensationalists Jewish urine must truly be counted holy water, and getting sh*t upon must truly seem like manna falling from heaven"
Quote of the month, unfortunately. :angry:
2003-05-06 04:18 | User Profile
Originally posted by Texas Dissident@May 5 2003, 23:22 > Originally posted by Okiereddust@May 5 2003, 18:06 To Coalition dispensationalists Jewish urine must truly be counted holy water, and getting sh*t upon must truly seem like manna falling from heaven"ÃÂ **
Quote of the month, unfortunately. :angry:**
Well not all dispensationalists are Zionist/Baal worshipers.
In the past a few have even listed the other way.
[url=http://forum.originaldissent.com/index.php?act=ST&f=14&t=7671&view=getlastpost]Dispensationalists and the Protocols[/url]
If you want to really understand the essense of dispensationalisms weakness, I think you aren't really correct to say it is an irrevokably philo-semitic theology. I would say rather it is an irrevokably plastic and opportunistic theology.
Todays dispensationalists tilt toward Israel, not in response to the winds of the spirit, but the winds of political opportunity in America's political and social culture. At their core I don't think their evil, just will o the wisp's.
They may not all fully realize it, but that's just the way they are.
2003-05-06 05:05 | User Profile
Your feelings toward the dispensationalists are more benevolent than mine, Okrereddust. The best I can do when I'm in a benevolent mood is call them spiritual cripples.
2003-05-06 07:06 | User Profile
Originally posted by Zoroaster@May 6 2003, 05:05 Your feelings toward the dispensationalists are more benevolent than mine, Okrereddust. The best I can do when I'm in a benevolent mood is call them spiritual cripples.
Well I'm just trying to keep a sense of perspective. Pro-Israel dispensationalists are a majority but are by no mean historically exclusive in dispensationalism. As the article I linked to shows, even among nominal adherents to dispensationalism there is great vagueness in their real understanding of the doctrine, including a lot of positions that Jews really don't find friendly at all, although they accept their support for Israel. Dispensationalism is in turn a minority position within evangelicalism, and evangelicalism is in turn a minority position within Protestantism, let alone Christianity in general.
Not to say that the effects of certain politically powerful dispensationalists can't be on occasion strong and deletorious. But we need to put them in perspective. People that say (since Wintermute isn't here, we can mention him as a prime example) that the example of Falwell or Robertson proves all Christians are an ignorant, sheeplike mass of people with lobotomized brains who shouldn't be allowed to speak or vote are IMO no different or better than rban making his tiresomely crude remarks about russian women, or the muslim fanatics we hear that say all western women are sluts, whores, and prostitutes, or liberals that point to Fox News and say it shows how all registered Republicans are war-hungry fascists (mea culpa, I'm still a registered Republican, and I suspect most of you are).
Maybe it just sounds like verbal fastidiness to me, but distinctions here are important.
2003-05-06 15:12 | User Profile
Okiereddust,
Don't be too hard on Wintermute. He may identify himself as a pagan, but he's not what I'd call a Christian basher. I would venture to say that he believes, probably as we do, that Christianity is in dire need of another Reformation.
Did you know that 14-year old girl in Scotland, I believe her name was MacDonald, who had the rapture vision Darby based his heresey upon later recanted it? When a married woman with children, she said that she thought the vision was demon-inspired.
2003-05-06 16:16 | User Profile
Originally posted by la foudre folle@May 6 2003, 16:05 ** Clearly, I have not yet conquered the posting gate on this forum. Sorry about that..... **
Hope that helped and's what you had in mind foudre.
2003-05-06 20:05 | User Profile
An Interesting article about Darby and the marketing of Dipensationalism
Darby's Dispensationalism Jack Van Deventer
John Nelson Darby (1800-1882) changed the Church more dramatically than most people realize. We have today legions of pastors, missionaries, and parachurch ministers who tell willing flocks that the end-times are upon us, our only hope is the secret rapture, and cultural transformation is futile. These well-meaning individuals would like us to believe that such teachings are the obvious conclusion of a simple, literal interpretation of the Bible. Mr. Darby started the Church thinking along these lines.1
Mr. Darby began his career as a lawyer, but quit to become a curate for the Church of England. Shortly thereafter he joined the Plymouth Brethren movement. The Brethren were a group of men who, having become disenchanted with the Established Church and the trappings of denominationalism, established a new denomination designed to conform to New Testament church principles. Because the Brethren movement was a breakaway group, there were few doctrinal constraints or safeguards. Early on, Darby and other early Plymouth Brethren leaders claimed to teach "rediscovered truths" that had been lost since the time of the apostles. The Brethren claimed their teachings were a departure from the "man-made doctrines" of the church fathers and the Reformers. They warned followers to be wary of the commentaries, creeds, and catechisms that were mere doctrines of men, and believed that they alone were submissive to the Scriptures. Darby is credited by most as the inventor of the "secret rapture" theory. He taught that Christ would snatch believers out of the world without warning. Similarly, he is also known for popularizing the any-moment or imminent return of Christ. To support these theories Darby interpreted the bulk of the prophetic passages futuristically, in sharp contrast to the prevailing historicism of the day. Although Darby did not invent futurism (which was developed by 16th-century Roman Catholics), he popularized it. Other members of the Brethren immediately challenged Darby's controversial teachings as unbiblical. Samuel P. Tregelles, a noted biblical scholar, rejected Darby's new scheme as the "height of speculative nonsense." So tenuous was Darby's rapture theory that he had lingering doubts about it as late as 1843, and possibly 1845. Another member of the Plymouth Brethren, B.W. Newton disputed Darby's new doctrine saying they were only possible if one declared certain passages to be "renounced as not properly ours." Historian E.R. Sandeen writes, "[T]his is precisely what Darby was prepared to do. Too traditional to admit that biblical authors might have contradicted each other, and too rationalistic to admit that the prophetic maze defied penetration, Darby attempted a resolution of his exegetical dilemma by distinguishing between Scripture intended for the Church and Scripture intended for Israel... Darby's difficulty was solved by assuming that the Gospels were addressed partly to Jews and partly to Christians." Darby sought to convince his hearers that his new doctrines stemmed from a literal approach to the Bible, but was forced into ever-increasing exegetical gymnastics to counteract their skeptical reception. Not only did he carve up the Scriptures according to a "for the Church" and "not for the Church" system, he further divided the Scriptures into time periods (dispensations). Hence, Darby is known as the "father of dispensationalism." As a former lawyer, Darby was a formidable debater. The early history of the Plymouth Brethren church was characterized by infighting, rivalries, and schism. Darby was known as a "dominating force" in these frays. Characterized as a "tyrant" by some historians, Darby was quick to charge opponents with heresy if they disagreed. Once in control, he often excommunicated dissenters. He even excommunicated George Muller when Muller received into fellowship individuals whom Darby had excommunicated. Given this background, it may seem odd that Darby's doctrines of dispensationalism have gained such widespread acceptance in the modern church. The key to Darby's success was marketing. He did an "end around" the Church and took his teachings to the masses. Simultaneously, he went on the offensive by attacking the traditional church with vigor. The "any moment" rapture was the great attraction that popularized dispensationalism. It was a vehicle for generating interest, enthusiasm, and converts. In the early days, these new doctrines were popularized through prophecy conferences funded by the wealthy young widow Lady Theodosia Powerscourt. Later, Darby took the show on the road and traveled extensively through Britain, Switzerland, Italy, France, Germany, Holland, Canada, the United States, the British West Indies, New Zealand, and Australia. Between 1862 and 1877 he came to North America seven times promoting his doctrines. After Darby's death, the biggest catalyst for the spread of dispensationalism was when another lawyer, C.I. Scofield, condensed Darby's notes into the Scofield Reference Bible, published in 1909. In the context of a study Bible, Darby's doctrines were perceived as credible and gained widespread acceptance. Through individualism, persistence, and great marketing, dispensationalism is now popularized and embedded into the psyche not only of the modern church but society as well. The Left Behind series is recycled Darbyism, the "height of speculative nonsense" in book form. Fictional stories of fictional theology. But hey, it sells. P.T. Barnum was right. At least for now.
[url=http://www.credenda.org/issues/13-5eschaton.php]http://www.credenda.org/issues/13-5eschaton.php[/url]
2003-05-06 20:20 | User Profile
Bonjour Crazy Thunder and welcome. You know, I've been a big user of any Cab/Shiraz blend, mostly out of Australia, although I still have a place in my heart for a fine vin rouge de Bordeaux!
As for "Christian" Zionuts, Jesus is recorded in Matthew 24:24 "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."
Also more damning for Rapturists is 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
And so is the fate of Christian Zionist Rapture Bunnies......but alas I confess, there go I but for the Grace of God. Amen and a votre sante!
2003-05-18 07:53 | User Profile
I'm waiting for the islamists to attack the christain zionists directly(physically I mean). It will happen eventually if they keep this up.