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Thread ID: 6164 | Posts: 10 | Started: 2003-04-15
2003-04-15 03:26 | User Profile
[url=http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/117315_quebec14.html]Quebec's voters poised to oust separatist party[/url]
Liberal victory could bring sea change in Canadian politics
By CLIFFORD KRAUSS THE NEW YORK TIMES
MONTREAL -- The federalist Liberal Party has jumped to a lead in the polls and appears poised to wrest the Quebec provincial government from the separatist Parti Quebecois in today's election.
Such a victory could portend a sea change in Canadian politics.
Premier Bernard Landry's governing party and his Parti Quebecois seek a third term, and face a strong challenge from the Quebec Liberal Party headed by Jean Charest.
After a closely fought race, the shift appears to reflect an emerging consensus on reducing local taxes, tackling long lines for publicly financed health care and, most important, ending the Parti Quebecois dream of separating from Canada.
Thirty percent of the voters in a poll published Saturday by Leger Marketing, a Montreal-based firm, said they could still change their minds, suggesting that the Parti Quebecois retains a slim possibility of making a last-minute comeback and retaining control of the provincial assembly it has held since 1994.
But several polls have shown the Liberals surging rapidly over the past week, with Charest, an ardent federalist and centrist, positioned to become premier.
The Leger poll showed the Liberals with 45 percent of the vote, the Parti Quebecois with 38 percent and the center-right Action Democratique du Quebec with 16 percent. As the Liberal vote is concentrated around Montreal, the resulting breakdown in the 125-member assembly would likely be much closer.
The Leger poll was conducted among 306 Quebec residents on April 10 and had a margin of error of plus or minus 6 percentage points.
A Liberal Quebec government would come as a relief for the local business community and English-speaking Quebecers who fear the instability that occurred during the 1980 and 1995 referendum campaigns on separation.
But a Liberal victory would also give the federal Liberal government more leeway on issues ranging from reforming health care to supporting the United States in Iraq.
Landry soft-pedaled the separatist issue during most of the campaign, refusing to promise another referendum while proposing tax breaks and four-day work weeks for young families with children.
His strategy appeared to be working until the campaign's sole televised debate two weeks ago.
Charest put Landry on the defensive with an unsubstantiated charge that earlier in the day the former separatist premier, Jacques Parizeau, repeated a controversial remark he made after the 1995 referendum, blaming the defeat on "money and ethnic votes." Some had viewed the remark as anti-immigrant and even anti-Semitic.
Struggling to respond, Landry forced Parizeau to stop campaigning for the Parti Quebecois ticket. That angered much of the party's activist core and appeared to paralyze the campaign for days.
His campaign in disarray, Landry, in the past few days, returned to the separatist theme to shore up his base. He promised to hold a referendum if there was the slightest chance of winning.
Whatever the election result, one analyst said the campaign signaled a new political era.
"This is the first election in 40 years in which sovereignty is not the central theme," said Christian Dufour, a Montreal lawyer and author. "But it will come back, sooner or later. The Quebecois question is still there, it's just dormant."
Federal politicians are likely to take notice of any shift to the right in Quebec politics as they prepare for national elections next year. With 7.2 million inhabitants, Quebec represents nearly one-quarter of the national population.
2003-04-17 06:54 | User Profile
Now that Quebec provincial subsidiary of the PMââ¬â¢s own federal party has handsomely defeated the separatists, Chretien will again be free to play cheerleader come future Imperial US adventures. Smooching up to the dominant French element in Quebec had cost him dearly with Bush and the country is up in arms about what to do to regain American expression of goodwill, i.e., continued prodigious purchasing/investing north of 49th. By all accounts, le point culminant during the battle for Quebec came when:
Charest put Landry on the defensive with an unsubstantiated charge that earlier in the day the former separatist premier, Jacques Parizeau, repeated a controversial remark he made after the 1995 referendum, blaming the defeat on "money and ethnic votes." Some had viewed the remark as anti-immigrant and even anti-Semitic.
If it was just about money he could have employed any number of retorts, but as we all know, there is no defence against a statement implicating ethnics of wrongdoing.
Of course, domestic squabbles of a resource province of the Empire are irrelevant, but the results of the1995 referendum and this election may be instructive for White Nationalists, particularly those inclined to believe in deliverance via succession. Quebec would have been an independent country had half-a-percentage of voters changed their minds. The Parizeau comment was an honest observation made possible, as are all political confessions, by a kind of delirium, induced on this occasion by alternating euphoria and despair, corresponding with flip-flopping predictions of victory and defeat for the Oui side during that night, as the old man came within a whisker of realizing his life ambition.
Though money poured in from Ottawa and the propaganda was nauseating, the ââ¬Ëethnicââ¬â¢ contribution was straightforward: 70% of Francophones (comprising six of seven million inhabitants) voted for independence while considerably over 90% of Anglos and aliens voted against. There will not be another opportunity. Lackluster economy aside, the immigrant influx during the intervening years has killed winnable referendums to come. The sad (or hilarious) thing about all this is that Quebec is the only province that gets to decide what immigrants get in to the jurisdiction from outside of the country. And since preservation of French language is paramount the options are fairly limited, and with France and Belgium combating the same lack-of-fecundity ailment, it is left almost exclusively to West Africans and few Haitians and Vietnamese to rejuvenate Quebecââ¬â¢s native stock. Yes, unable to procreate naturally, and finding unpalatable immigrants who choose to learn English instead of French, the province has opted to go the turd world route. Presumably, French-speaking Africans will do more to preserve French culture than Europeans (or anyone not fluent in either language) whoââ¬â¢d rather learn English first.
Now, there are still a few Mid-Western and New England states with the same 85% (white) native population. The 70% figure, then, is a minimum requirement for a successful referendum on succession, assuming for a moment that such movement would be allowed to develop. Further, out of control immigration/invasion means that the window of opportunity is closing rapidly. My guess is that there will be an independent Aztlan before Whites agree, in requisite numbers, to anything so revolutionary as succession. :thd:
2003-04-17 21:45 | User Profile
The quebecois have been trying since the 70s to get independence, periodically holding referendums and holding the whole country to ransom while it happens. The French Canadians have blackmailed the Canadian govt and hobbled the entire national economy, ceaselessly campaigning for and extracting economic benefits and govt handouts for the French at the expense of Anglos and all else. They are not interested in the least in separating, they are interested in squeezing $$ out of the rest with the threat of separation. An idle threat which they never intend to execute....
Iââ¬â¢m impressed. This is actually a fair characterization of long-standing Quebec - English Canada relations; right up to the point where you said that separation was a mere threat. Of course the aim is to get Ottawa to keep the dough coming, a game played by all provinces (particularly the ââ¬Åhave-notsââ¬Â) and Quebec happens to be more adept at it on account of its nationalist trump card. This will continue even without separatists in power, albeit in a more subtle form. The PQ, like all political organizations, is a mixed bag, in this case comprised of die-hard separatists and various strands of moderates, some of which are content to use the party as a more efficient vehicle to hit Ottawa for more cash and rights. But donââ¬â¢t kid yourself -- the die-hards are more or less in charge, a fact born out by the 1995 referendum when, afterwards, it was revealed that independence would have been declared a few days later. There is no question that they need the money that the Confederation provides, but that consideration yields to sovereignty in the minds of Parizeau and others.
BTW, rban, is your post to be interpreted as an acknowledgement of the inherent instability of multi-cultural nations, a structure unworkable even when attempted by people of same race (e.g., English/French or Serbs/Croats), to say nothing of truly multi-ethnic monstrosities? If so, and given you love for Hindus and Whites alike, will you reassess your position on the desirability of two such groups sharing one country?
2003-04-18 00:37 | User Profile
Now 8 years hence the referendum, the circumstances clearly are in favor of non-separatism. To even get a new referendum on the ballot, extraneous conditions aside, would take another two years, and the separatist movement is more focused on retrenching than pushing the ballot forward at this moment. The US and Britain regimes are indeed nonplussed by the Chretien Canada's rejection of it's war efforts.. the fact that Canada did not commit even a token amount of troops or support to the war is however quite relevant in this matter, because by doing so, some Quebecois are appeased to the point where they see that Canada is not a mere lapdog of the Crown and the US. An influx of immigrants from France itself, and from Haiti, Mozambique and other former French imperialist territories ( who have spoken French as the main language for generations ) could be a powerful tool in boosting the secessionist power base. From my experience in talking with Haitians specifically, their love of the French culture and language is strong. And that goes for the Moroccans also. When there is no way to separate but the ballot box, Quebec cannot rest its laurels on its native population ( like I said unless some major rift surfaces ) .. You see, over the years, Quebecois were a happy lot, pleased with their culture their land, their communities.. And it is not to be challenged that Quebec is indeed the HEART of Canada. It has nothing to do with the structure of government that they have secessionist tendencies, and everything to do tith preserving their rights as the ancestors of those who made Canada great, and no-one with an objective mind will ever tell you that it was the English who made Canada what it is.
2003-04-20 01:56 | User Profile
Rban, you are an ignorant bastard. Secondly, if you ever went to Canada, you would see that all architectural feats, all that makes Montreal and Quebec City.. but alas, you are an ignorant swine, who is Indian, and has no appreciation..isn't it strange how only you dispute the French historical claim in building Canada.. you think a small military loss is relevant ? Those things happenned when France was not ready to commit the available sources.. maybe the French are not as concerned about such things.. you want to rail about a lacking country ?? Look at your own.. what a joke.
2003-04-20 02:02 | User Profile
And also, you belie your English slave tendencies by chastizing the French history of Canada.. you are a product of English domination and control.. at least the French were there in Canada, furriers and masons, making that country great, while your people we living like animals.. you better not call them frogs again.. frogs.. boy don't you give away your own racism ? What did the French ever do to you ?? What a swine you are by your comments. Go worship your milk-drinking idol and fade to sand.
2003-04-25 02:15 | User Profile
Rban, I don't think you're a bad person. I have sometimes agreed with you on certain issues, and as you said I am not a racist. However, when you say that the French are bad for Canada, you're barking up the wrong tree. Hopefully sometime soon you will realize the facts. France respects India, France respects all people.. its the English who do not respect.
2003-04-26 07:23 | User Profile
Originally posted by Exelsis_Deo@Apr 25 2003, 02:15 **Rban, I don't think you're a bad person. I have sometimes agreed with you on certain issues, and as you said I am not a racist. **
I have to disagree with you here. Rban is clever, but he's a pain in the arse.
However, when you say that the French are bad for Canada, you're barking up the wrong tree.
I don't know how a people could really sink lower socially than the Quebec seperatists. Even in dismal Canada. They have the highest divorce rate, lowest church attendance lowest marriage rate, lowest birth rate, and highest illegitimacy rates in the country, (and indeed the world). > **
Hopefully sometime soon you will realize the facts. France respects India, France respects all people.. its the English who do not respect.**
Maybe they're rban's kind of people, but they aren't mine.
2003-04-29 05:25 | User Profile
**I don't know how a people could really sink lower socially than the Quebec seperatists. Even in dismal Canada. They have the highest divorce rate, lowest church attendance lowest marriage rate, lowest birth rate, and highest illegitimacy rates in the country, (and indeed the world). **
It is not the fault of separatists that this is so, other than that political instability in the province has raised general stress level and scientists have implicated the condition as an adverse factor in most of the above.
Though it pains this heathen to say it, the origin of Quebecââ¬â¢s social decline was the so-called ââ¬Åtranquil revolutionââ¬Â of the 60ââ¬â¢s and the commensurate decline of the Catholic faith.
The 60,000 souls comprising the original stock before English conquest, unlike other early European immigrants to North America, were uniform in commitment to their (one) religion and were often handpicked for colonization on that basis. After the Plains of Abraham debacle, the French culture in was given a new lease on life by the Quebec Act which served to preserve their language and religion. From then, Quebecers, although perpetually discontent with English dominance in politics and commerce, were quite secure in their social well being and, perhaps not incidentally, few were more conservative or religiously devoted. The people flourished -- to a tune of six million. The turbulent sixties which ushered in the same degeneracy seen elsewhere, and then some for it may be that all the penned up restraint required a more pronounced catharsis. Whatever the case, today, in addition to the enumerated distinctions, the province leads the western world in teenage suicide rates. As elsewhere, small towns retain much of their conservative flavour and religiosity but their numbers are diminishing as young people seek enlightenment in the big cities. Indeed, you really cannot sink much further, but it is said that the abyss is bottomless.
Incidentally, this instance of race suicide is self-guided and appears to need minimal supervision by the international folk. Itââ¬â¢s true that Montreal is humming with tribe activity but the influence is either less pronounced or distinct in focus. Quebec media, almost sans exception, is pro-Palestinian and views Sharon if not as war criminal than as very bad man. The French-language arm of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporations feels (could be just me) different in perspective and coverage concerning Middle Eastern issues, and, if true, it is likely a case of vendor furnishing more palatable material for a different consumer. A consumer that fancies sophistication on international issues but remains hopelessly befuddled on domestic policies. Itââ¬â¢s a pity that cosmopolitans cannot grasp where it is best to deploy the bulk of the available resources.
2003-04-29 15:29 | User Profile
Originally posted by Sisyfos@Apr 29 2003, 05:25 > I don't know how a people could really sink lower socially than the Quebec seperatists. Even in dismal Canada. They have the highest divorce rate, lowest church attendance lowest marriage rate, lowest birth rate, and highest illegitimacy rates in the country, (and indeed the world). **
It is not the fault of separatists that this is so, other than that political instability in the province has raised general stress level and scientists have implicated the condition as an adverse factor in most of the above.
Though it pains this heathen to say it, the origin of Quebecââ¬â¢s social decline was the so-called ââ¬Åtranquil revolutionââ¬Â of the 60ââ¬â¢s and the commensurate decline of the Catholic faith.
**
[url=http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news_culture&Number=352297&page=&view=&sb=&o=&vc=1&t=-1#Post352297]Liberty Forum[/url]
In the above thread Juststopit had an interesting perspective on the Quebec decline. It's an interesting subject to me and a few other Canadaphiles, although most Americans could care less. He blames Quebec's social decline on the anti-marriage laws passed by the Parti Quebecios in 1976, but unlike you ascribes them in general to "the false gods" of Quebec seperatism.
**No, we haven't talked about Quebec. That's because we were talking about law. In Canada marriage and criminal law is a federal matter.
I don't know who John Dobson is but everything you say about Quebec is perfectly true. Quebec has the highest rate of cohabitation and illegitimacy in North America - by far. It has the lowest birth rate - by far. This is a complete reversal. Forty years ago, Quebec had the highest birthrate in Canada and the lowest divorce rate.
Until 1960, Quebec was heavily under the thumb of the Catholic church, which ran the schools and the hospitals and much else. The Parrish Priest would influence voting from the pulpit. In the space of five years, a total transformation took place. Everything was nationalized and the power of the Church was permanently overthrown. Today Quebec has the lowest rate of church attendance in Canada.
The problem is that they replaced the church with socialism and nationalism - ideologies which are not conducive to morality.
When the separatists first came to power in 1976, they enacted the law you are talking about - the one which forbids a woman to take her husband's name. The objective was, of course, to eliminate discrimination against women. They would done far better to force the man to take the woman's name. As it was they eliminated the single greatest marker which a married couple presents to the world - the fact that they have the same last name. This, I think, is one of the single greatest reasons for the elimination of marriage in this province. It really does make no difference. The piece of paper has no legal or social effect.
If I meet a couple, they will introduce themselves as Joe Blow and Jane Doe, not Joe and Jane Blow. It is, of course, extremely impolitic to ask if they are married so you never find out. Increasingly, even couples who are married refer to their spouses as "copin" or "copine", my friend. There is nothing to mark a couple as being married anymore. I believe that my neighbours on both sides are married but I don't know it.
It's interesting to note that, while there is little difference, in marriage rates or birth rates between French and English Quebeckers, there is a significant difference between federalists and separatists. Those who have most completely given themselves over to the false Gods are killing themselves off. The demographic prognosis for Quebec independence is not good.**