[url=http://home.att.net/~professorboris/Music/Shallwegatherheriver.mid]Click for music[/url] be burnt at the stake or otherwise dispatched by orthodox Odinists?  Can one imagine an Odinist Witch Trial, an Odinist Inquisition, or an Odinist Canossa?  What about an Odinist crusade to "liberate" Jerusalem?** One can't imagine these things because one cannot imagine Odinism as a viable, substantative religion with mass appeal. Going back to the West's pagan roots, of course there were persecutions of Christians. Although every religion has its own flavor or persecutions. Also, you haven't read much of MacDonald in SAID have you? If you'd read that, or understood anything about the Spanish Inquisition as he articulates it, I doubt if you would be criticizing it, or at least using it as a *bete noire*. It was in fact a classic example of a western society ingroup trying to protect itself against outgroup subversion the "New Christians" aka the *Marranos* > nt at the stake or otherwise dispatched by orthodox Odinists?  Can one imagine an Odinist Witch Trial, an Odinist Inquisition, or an Odinist Canossa?  What about an Odinist crusade to "liberate" Jerusalem?** One can't imagine these things because one cannot imagine Odinism as a viable, substantative religion with mass appeal. Going back to the West's pagan roots, of course there were persecutions of Christians. Although every religion has its own flavor or persecutions. Also, you haven't read much of MacDonald in SAID have you? If you'd read that, or understood anything about the Spanish Inquisition as he articulates it, I doubt if you would be criticizing it, or at least using it as a *bete noire*. It was in fact a classic example of a western society ingroup trying to protect itself against outgroup subversion the "New Christians" aka the *Marranos* > e stake or otherwise dispatched by orthodox Odinists?  Can one imagine an Odinist Witch Trial, an Odinist Inquisition, or an Odinist Canossa?  What about an Odinist crusade to "liberate" Jerusalem?** One can't imagine these things because one cannot imagine Odinism as a viable, substantative religion with mass appeal. Going back to the West's pagan roots, of course there were persecutions of Christians. Although every religion has its own flavor or persecutions. Also, you haven't read much of MacDonald in SAID have you? If you'd read that, or understood anything about the Spanish Inquisition as he articulates it, I doubt if you would be criticizing it, or at least using it as a *bete noire*. It was in fact a classic example of a western society ingroup trying to protect itself against outgroup subversion the "New Christians" aka the *Marranos* > or otherwise dispatched by orthodox Odinists?  Can one imagine an Odinist Witch Trial, an Odinist Inquisition, or an Odinist Canossa?  What about an Odinist crusade to "liberate" Jerusalem?** One can't imagine these things because one cannot imagine Odinism as a viable, substantative religion with mass appeal. Going back to the West's pagan roots, of course there were persecutions of Christians. Although every religion has its own flavor or persecutions. Also, you haven't read much of MacDonald in SAID have you? If you'd read that, or understood anything about the Spanish Inquisition as he articulates it, I doubt if you would be criticizing it, or at least using it as a *bete noire*. It was in fact a classic example of a western society ingroup trying to protect itself against outgroup subversion the "New Christians" aka the *Marranos* >

Christians Must Continue Their Undying Support for Israel the stake or otherwise dispatched by orthodox Odinists?  Can one imagine an Odinist Witch Trial, an Odinist Inquisition, or an Odinist Canossa?  What about an Odinist crusade to "liberate" Jerusalem?** One can't imagine these things because one cannot imagine Odinism as a viable, substantative religion with mass appeal. Going back to the West's pagan roots, of course there were persecutions of Christians. Although every religion has its own flavor or persecutions. Also, you haven't read much of MacDonald in SAID have you? If you'd read that, or understood anything about the Spanish Inquisition as he articulates it, I doubt if you would be criticizing it, or at least using it as a *bete noire*. It was in fact a classic example of a western society ingroup trying to protect itself against outgroup subversion the "New Christians" aka the *Marranos* >

ou? If you'd read that, or understood anything about the Spanish Inquisition as he articulates it, I doubt if you would be criticizing it, or at least using it as a *bete noire*. It was in fact a classic example of a western society ingroup trying to protect itself against outgroup subversion the "New Christians" aka the *Marranos* >

you'd read that, or understood anything about the Spanish Inquisition as he articulates it, I doubt if you would be criticizing it, or at least using it as a *bete noire*. It was in fact a classic example of a western society ingroup trying to protect itself against outgroup subversion the "New Christians" aka the *Marranos* >

By Dr. Jerry Falwell Publisher, National Liberty Journal

Every Evangelical Christian who loves Israel is celebrating the victory of Ariel Sharon 03, 21:36 > as that nation’s new prime minister. By a landslide margin, Mr. Sharon defeated Ehud Barak, and immediately set in motion a plan to prevent the fulfillment of Mr. Barak’s earlier misguided concessions to the Palestinians. nquisition, or an Odinist Canossa?  What about an Odinist crusade to "liberate" Jerusalem?

One can't imagine these things because one cannot imagine Odinism as a viable, substantative religion with mass appeal. Going back to the West's pagan roots, of course there were persecutions of Christians. Although every religion has its own flavor or persecutions.

Also, you haven't read much of MacDonald in SAID have you? If you'd read that, or understood anything about the Spanish Inquisition as he articulates it, I doubt if you would be criticizing it, or at least using it as a bete noire. It was in fact a classic example of a western society ingroup trying to protect itself against outgroup subversion the "New Christians" aka the Marranos

ion, or an Odinist Canossa?  What about an Odinist crusade to "liberate" Jerusalem?**

One can't imagine these things because one cannot imagine Odinism as a viable, substantative religion with mass appeal. Going back to the West's pagan roots, of course there were persecutions of Christians. Although every religion has its own flavor or persecutions.

Also, you haven't read much of MacDonald in SAID have you? If you'd read that, or understood anything about the Spanish Inquisition as he articulates it, I doubt if you would be criticizing it, or at least using it as a bete noire. It was in fact a classic example of a western society ingroup trying to protect itself against outgroup subversion the "New Christians" aka the Marranos

an Odinist Canossa?  What about an Odinist crusade to "liberate" Jerusalem?**

One can't imagine these things because one cannot imagine Odinism as a viable, substantative religion with mass appeal. Going back to the West's pagan roots, of course there were persecutions of Christians. Although every religion has its own flavor or persecutions.

Also, you haven't read much of MacDonald in SAID have you? If you'd read that, or understood anything about the Spanish Inquisition as he articulates it, I doubt if you would be criticizing it, or at least using it as a bete noire. It was in fact a classic example of a western society ingroup trying to protect itself against outgroup subversion the "New Christians" aka the Marranos

During his final days in office, Mr. Barak had offered the Palestinians a state in about 95 percent of the West Bank and control over parts of Jerusalem. In addition, according to a New York Post report, Mr. Barak had also indicated a willingness to partially relinquish Israeli sovereignty over the Temple Mount in the Old City of Jerusalem, where the Al Aqsa Mosque stands above the ruins of the sacred biblical Jewish Temples. one cannot imagine Odinism as a viable, substantative religion with mass appeal. Going back to the West's pagan roots, of course there were persecutions of Christians. Although every religion has its own flavor or persecutions.

Also, you haven't read much of MacDonald in SAID have you? If you'd read that, or understood anything about the Spanish Inquisition as he articulates it, I doubt if you would be criticizing it, or at least using it as a bete noire. It was in fact a classic example of a western society ingroup trying to protect itself against outgroup subversion the "New Christians" aka the Marranos

t imagine Odinism as a viable, substantative religion with mass appeal. Going back to the West's pagan roots, of course there were persecutions of Christians. Although every religion has its own flavor or persecutions.

Also, you haven't read much of MacDonald in SAID have you? If you'd read that, or understood anything about the Spanish Inquisition as he articulates it, I doubt if you would be criticizing it, or at least using it as a bete noire. It was in fact a classic example of a western society ingroup trying to protect itself against outgroup subversion the "New Christians" aka the Marranos

ne Odinism as a viable, substantative religion with mass appeal. Going back to the West's pagan roots, of course there were persecutions of Christians. Although every religion has its own flavor or persecutions.

Also, you haven't read much of MacDonald in SAID have you? If you'd read that, or understood anything about the Spanish Inquisition as he articulates it, I doubt if you would be criticizing it, or at least using it as a bete noire. It was in fact a classic example of a western society ingroup trying to protect itself against outgroup subversion the "New Christians" aka the Marranos

ism as a viable, substantative religion with mass appeal. Going back to the West's pagan roots, of course there were persecutions of Christians. Although every religion has its own flavor or persecutions.

Also, you haven't read much of MacDonald in SAID have you? If you'd read that, or understood anything about the Spanish Inquisition as he articulates it, I doubt if you would be criticizing it, or at least using it as a bete noire. It was in fact a classic example of a western society ingroup trying to protect itself against outgroup subversion the "New Christians" aka the Marranos

Mr. Barak, seemingly a willing dupe of President Clinton and rabble-rouser James Carville, was convinced by the Democrat leadership in the U.S. to make unnecessary concessions to the Palestinians even though history proves that these concessions do nothing to appease Yassir Arafat, the terrorist leader of the Palestinian Liberation Organization. The PLO has long sought the destruction of Israel, which became independent on May 14, 1948agine Odinism as a viable, substantative religion with mass appeal. Going back to the West's pagan roots, of course there were persecutions of Christians. Although every religion has its own flavor or persecutions.

Also, you haven't read much of MacDonald in SAID have you? If you'd read that, or understood anything about the Spanish Inquisition as he articulates it, I doubt if you would be criticizing it, or at least using it as a bete noire. It was in fact a classic example of a western society ingroup trying to protect itself against outgroup subversion the "New Christians" aka the Marranos

. nism as a viable, substantative religion with mass appeal. Going back to the West's pagan roots, of course there were persecutions of Christians. Although every religion has its own flavor or persecutions.

Also, you haven't read much of MacDonald in SAID have you? If you'd read that, or understood anything about the Spanish Inquisition as he articulates it, I doubt if you would be criticizing it, or at least using it as a bete noire. It was in fact a classic example of a western society ingroup trying to protect itself against outgroup subversion the "New Christians" aka the Marranos

a viable, substantative religion with mass appeal. Going back to the West's pagan roots, of course there were persecutions of Christians. Although every religion has its own flavor or persecutions.

Also, you haven't read much of MacDonald in SAID have you? If you'd read that, or understood anything about the Spanish Inquisition as he articulates it, I doubt if you would be criticizing it, or at least using it as a bete noire. It was in fact a classic example of a western society ingroup trying to protect itself against outgroup subversion the "New Christians" aka the Marranos

le, substantative religion with mass appeal. Going back to the West's pagan roots, of course there were persecutions of Christians. Although every religion has its own flavor or persecutions.

Also, you haven't read much of MacDonald in SAID have you? If you'd read that, or understood anything about the Spanish Inquisition as he articulates it, I doubt if you would be criticizing it, or at least using it as a bete noire. It was in fact a classic example of a western society ingroup trying to protect itself against outgroup subversion the "New Christians" aka the Marranos

Bill Clinton, who poured untold amounts of money into the Barak election in 1999, was consumed with bringing peace to the Middle East as a personal legacy. His intent was clearly not to bolster Israel, but solely to direct his own individual glory before his presidency played out.

When Bill Clinton entered office, the Middle East was quite stable. However, when he left office, the region was languishing in confusion and turmoil.

The National Unity Coalition for Israel reported, “In 1991, only rogue states like Iraq spoke openly of destroying Israel: in 2001, putative and pay-rolled U.S. allies like Egypt make it an official plank of foreign policy, backing Yassir Arafat’s demands for demographic destruction of the Jewish state through the ‘right of return’ of Palestinian refugees.” can't imagine these things because one cannot imagine Odinism as a viable, substantative religion with mass appeal. Going back to the West's pagan roots, of course there were persecutions of Christians. Although every religion has its own flavor or persecutions.

Also, you haven't read much of MacDonald in SAID have you? If you'd read that, or understood anything about the Spanish Inquisition as he articulates it, I doubt if you would be criticizing it, or at least using it as a bete noire. It was in fact a classic example of a western society ingroup trying to protect itself against outgroup subversion the "New Christians" aka the Marranos

9;t imagine these things because one cannot imagine Odinism as a viable, substantative religion with mass appeal. Going back to the West's pagan roots, of course there were persecutions of Christians. Although every religion has its own flavor or persecutions.

Also, you haven't read much of MacDonald in SAID have you? If you'd read that, or understood anything about the Spanish Inquisition as he articulates it, I doubt if you would be criticizing it, or at least using it as a bete noire. It was in fact a classic example of a western society ingroup trying to protect itself against outgroup subversion the "New Christians" aka the Marranos

gine these things because one cannot imagine Odinism as a viable, substantative religion with mass appeal. Going back to the West's pagan roots, of course there were persecutions of Christians. Although every religion has its own flavor or persecutions.

Also, you haven't read much of MacDonald in SAID have you? If you'd read that, or understood anything about the Spanish Inquisition as he articulates it, I doubt if you would be criticizing it, or at least using it as a bete noire. It was in fact a classic example of a western society ingroup trying to protect itself against outgroup subversion the "New Christians" aka the Marranos

The fact is that peace is not the important issue to Israelis. Security of the region is the prime concern of the vast majority of the 5.7 million residents of Israel. Sacrificing security in the desperate hope for peace was Mr. Barak’s downfall.

However, Mr. Sharon, a 72-year-old retired general,t's pagan roots, of course there were persecutions of Christians. Although every religion has its own flavor or persecutions.

Also, you haven't read much of MacDonald in SAID have you? If you'd read that, or understood anything about the Spanish Inquisition as he articulates it, I doubt if you would be criticizing it, or at least using it as a bete noire. It was in fact a classic example of a western society ingroup trying to protect itself against outgroup subversion the "New Christians" aka the Marranos

has called on the Palestinians to end the latest four-month uprising and has vowed to hold on to a “united Jerusalem” as Israel’s capital. Additionally, he has pledged not to give up control over Arab sections of East Jerusalem.

Inquisition as he articulates it, I doubt if you would be criticizing it, or at least using it as a bete noire. It was in fact a classic example of a western society ingroup trying to protect itself against outgroup subversion the "New Christians" aka the Marranos

tion as he articulates it, I doubt if you would be criticizing it, or at least using it as a bete noire. It was in fact a classic example of a western society ingroup trying to protect itself against outgroup subversion the "New Christians" aka the Marranos

he articulates it, I doubt if you would be criticizing it, or at least using it as a bete noire. It was in fact a classic example of a western society ingroup trying to protect itself against outgroup subversion the "New Christians" aka the Marranos

“The state of Israel has embarked on a new path ... striving for security and a real, genuine peace,” he told exhilarated Likud Party supporters. “I am aware of the fact that peace requires painful compromises by both sides. I call upon our Palestinian neighbors to cast off the path of violence and to return to the path of dialogue and to resolving the disputes between us by peaceful means.” ou would be criticizing it, or at least using it as a bete noire. It was in fact a classic example of a western society ingroup trying to protect itself against outgroup subversion the "New Christians" aka the Marranos

d be criticizing it, or at least using it as a bete noire. It was in fact a classic example of a western society ingroup trying to protect itself against outgroup subversion the "New Christians" aka the Marranos

iticizing it, or at least using it as a bete noire. It was in fact a classic example of a western society ingroup trying to protect itself against outgroup subversion the "New Christians" aka the Marranos

Autonomy over Arab East Jerusalem, captured during the 1967 Middle East war, and the Temple Mount -- revered by Muslims as “Noble Sanctuary” -- are the primary obstacles in securing an Israeli-Palestinian peace agreement.

Tom Rose, publisher and CEO of the Jerusalem Post, told me that, in addition to working for peace, Mr. Sharon will also attempt to preempt the terrorism that has gone unpunished in the region. “That terrorism has terribly hurt Israel’s deterrent capability,” he said. “And that deterrent capability is what has brought stability to the region. When that capability goes down the tubes, the entire region becomes unstable.”

Concessions to the Palestinians, he said, do nothing to alleviate this problem. “The more concessions we make, the more violence we see,” said Mr. Rose.

Of course, dealing with a madman -- Yassir Arafathistory tell us that we must have a dominant "viable substantive religion with mass appeal"? Odinism is an Olympian religion such as comfortably sustained Classical Civilization until the racial rot set in, and the issue of heresy and persecution in the derivatives of Judaism has had a prominence rising to a qualitative distinctiveness as compared with that in other faiths and philosophies. The implicit point stands that Odinism is obviously the native faith, with which faith the pattern of Kristian performance strongly contrasts as a highly contested and thus alien imposition or acquisition.

And I perfectly understand and affirm Mac's account of the Spanish Inquisition. Evidently you were not aware that there was another and more comprehensive Inquisition:

"The Roman emperors Constantine and Theodosius I, in the fourth century AD, stopped the persecution of the Christian church and, along with Justinian I 200 years later, essentially made the Catholic Church the state religion. Just as the wealth of today migrates toward tax shelters, over the next 700 years aristocracy migrated toward the tax-sheltered positions of power in the higher offices of the church, those of bishops, cardinals, and pope. Where the church and its people were once one, the church hierarchy (First Estate) and aristocracy (Second Estate) were now one; there was now a distinct division between the church leaders and the common people. From their new power base running the church, the combined First and Second Estates sold indulgences and salvations. The common people were terrified of purgatory (Hell) and the last bit of wealth could be extracted from those who hoped to be saved and go to heaven. Edward Burman, in The Inquisition, from which this chronology is taken, explains that with the returning Crusaders in the late eleventh and early twelfth centuries came many different Christian beliefs, others (called cults and heresies) were springing forth all over Europe, and various unorthodox Christian beliefs were filtering into Europe from Jerusalem.

"Some of these beliefs permitted each person to find his or her own way to heaven and (primarily the well-organized and rapidly expanding Cathars and Waldensians) openly frowned on a wealthy, licentious church. Others were drawing away church members by competing claims of miraculous cures. All power brokers fear the expansion of the political powers of others while their own power shrinks.

"Such was the Church's fear of these competing beliefs. The Albigensian Crusade (1209-1229) was organized by Pope Innocent III to destroy the Cathars of southern France with their threatening doctrines and parallel organization of dioceses headed by bishops. This was only the largest of various efforts to suppress heresies since the middle of the tenth century. As with all crusades (the crusade of the Cold War is a very good example), this required a massive Social Control belief system (propaganda) portraying the Cathars as a dangerous enemy, in this case as infidels and heretics, to justify the slaughter of targeted people and theft of their wealth.

"The burning of heretics at the stake for 200 years coalesced between 1123 and 1206 into the formal Inquisition. In 1206 and 1210 Pope Innocent III founded the Franciscan and Dominican Mendicant Orders to preach against heresy; and in 1215 the Latern Council was held which listed 'clause by clause' heretical interpretations of the faith, the removal from office of heretics, confiscation of their property, excommunication, and their referral to the feudal lords for punishment.

"With the Cathars fleeing to other sections of Europe to escape certain death from zealous inquisitors and secular lords, between 1227 and 1252 Pope Gregory IX and Pope Innocent IV issued several bulls that further encoded and formalized the form of the Inquisition.

"'The Inquisition was ready to start work on a grand scale shortly after the mid-point of the thirteenth century' and, as the Christian sects went underground, Popes Alexander IX, Urban IV, Clement IV, and Boniface VIII issued bulls to maintain that momentum and root out the last vestiges of threat to their power.

"Franciscan and Dominican priests organized to lead heretics back to the fold evolved into a few zealous priests becoming inquisitors and torturers. They condemned hundreds of thousands of heretics to burn at the stake over a period of 700 years, the majority being Cathars, Waldensians, Jews, and Muslims; as they disappeared, Freemasons, alleged witches, midwives, and personal enemies were targeted.

"'Only the fear of losing power acquired over a period of a thousand years can satisfactorily explain such violent reactions.'1 That it was political power that was at stake was evident in the Albigensian Crusade and in the Spanish Inquisition. 'Wars are politics by other means' and the Cathar, Waldensian, Jewish, and Muslim communities were under assault by formal military forces led by Catholic secular powers."

-- is frequently a losing premise. It is important to note that Mr. Arafat wickedly exploits the children mfortably sustained Classical Civilization until the racial rot set in, and the issue of heresy and persecution in the derivatives of Judaism has had a prominence rising to a qualitative distinctiveness as compared with that in other faiths and philosophies. The implicit point stands that Odinism is obviously the native faith, with which faith the pattern of Kristian performance strongly contrasts as a highly contested and thus alien imposition or acquisition.

And I perfectly understand and affirm Mac's account of the Spanish Inquisition. Evidently you were not aware that there was another and more comprehensive Inquisition:

"The Roman emperors Constantine and Theodosius I, in the fourth century AD, stopped the persecution of the Christian church and, along with Justinian I 200 years later, essentially made the Catholic Church the state religion. Just as the wealth of today migrates toward tax shelters, over the next 700 years aristocracy migrated toward the tax-sheltered positions of power in the higher offices of the church, those of bishops, cardinals, and pope. Where the church and its people were once one, the church hierarchy (First Estate) and aristocracy (Second Estate) were now one; there was now a distinct division between the church leaders and the common people. From their new power base running the church, the combined First and Second Estates sold indulgences and salvations. The common people were terrified of purgatory (Hell) and the last bit of wealth could be extracted from those who hoped to be saved and go to heaven. Edward Burman, in The Inquisition, from which this chronology is taken, explains that with the returning Crusaders in the late eleventh and early twelfth centuries came many different Christian beliefs, others (called cults and heresies) were springing forth all over Europe, and various unorthodox Christian beliefs were filtering into Europe from Jerusalem.

"Some of these beliefs permitted each person to find his or her own way to heaven and (primarily the well-organized and rapidly expanding Cathars and Waldensians) openly frowned on a wealthy, licentious church. Others were drawing away church members by competing claims of miraculous cures. All power brokers fear the expansion of the political powers of others while their own power shrinks.

"Such was the Church's fear of these competing beliefs. The Albigensian Crusade (1209-1229) was organized by Pope Innocent III to destroy the Cathars of southern France with their threatening doctrines and parallel organization of dioceses headed by bishops. This was only the largest of various efforts to suppress heresies since the middle of the tenth century. As with all crusades (the crusade of the Cold War is a very good example), this required a massive Social Control belief system (propaganda) portraying the Cathars as a dangerous enemy, in this case as infidels and heretics, to justify the slaughter of targeted people and theft of their wealth.

"The burning of heretics at the stake for 200 years coalesced between 1123 and 1206 into the formal Inquisition. In 1206 and 1210 Pope Innocent III founded the Franciscan and Dominican Mendicant Orders to preach against heresy; and in 1215 the Latern Council was held which listed 'clause by clause' heretical interpretations of the faith, the removal from office of heretics, confiscation of their property, excommunication, and their referral to the feudal lords for punishment.

"With the Cathars fleeing to other sections of Europe to escape certain death from zealous inquisitors and secular lords, between 1227 and 1252 Pope Gregory IX and Pope Innocent IV issued several bulls that further encoded and formalized the form of the Inquisition.

"'The Inquisition was ready to start work on a grand scale shortly after the mid-point of the thirteenth century' and, as the Christian sects went underground, Popes Alexander IX, Urban IV, Clement IV, and Boniface VIII issued bulls to maintain that momentum and root out the last vestiges of threat to their power.

"Franciscan and Dominican priests organized to lead heretics back to the fold evolved into a few zealous priests becoming inquisitors and torturers. They condemned hundreds of thousands of heretics to burn at the stake over a period of 700 years, the majority being Cathars, Waldensians, Jews, and Muslims; as they disappeared, Freemasons, alleged witches, midwives, and personal enemies were targeted.

"'Only the fear of losing power acquired over a period of a thousand years can satisfactorily explain such violent reactions.'1 That it was political power that was at stake was evident in the Albigensian Crusade and in the Spanish Inquisition. 'Wars are politics by other means' and the Cathar, Waldensian, Jewish, and Muslim communities were under assault by formal military forces led by Catholic secular powers."

of his nation, convincing them to fling rocks and bottles at Israeli troops. When one of these children is killed, their families are given up to $2,000 as a reward for their efforts and the children are buried as martyrs.

Sadly, the mainstream American press ignores this fact. Also often ignored is the fact that PLO terrorists who blow up busses are hailed as heroes. is an Olympian religion such as comfortably sustained Classical Civilization until the racial rot set in, and the issue of heresy and persecution in the derivatives of Judaism has had a prominence rising to a qualitative distinctiveness as compared with that in other faiths and philosophies. The implicit point stands that Odinism is obviously the native faith, with which faith the pattern of Kristian performance strongly contrasts as a highly contested and thus alien imposition or acquisition.

And I perfectly understand and affirm Mac's account of the Spanish Inquisition. Evidently you were not aware that there was another and more comprehensive Inquisition:

"The Roman emperors Constantine and Theodosius I, in the fourth century AD, stopped the persecution of the Christian church and, along with Justinian I 200 years later, essentially made the Catholic Church the state religion. Just as the wealth of today migrates toward tax shelters, over the next 700 years aristocracy migrated toward the tax-sheltered positions of power in the higher offices of the church, those of bishops, cardinals, and pope. Where the church and its people were once one, the church hierarchy (First Estate) and aristocracy (Second Estate) were now one; there was now a distinct division between the church leaders and the common people. From their new power base running the church, the combined First and Second Estates sold indulgences and salvations. The common people were terrified of purgatory (Hell) and the last bit of wealth could be extracted from those who hoped to be saved and go to heaven. Edward Burman, in The Inquisition, from which this chronology is taken, explains that with the returning Crusaders in the late eleventh and early twelfth centuries came many different Christian beliefs, others (called cults and heresies) were springing forth all over Europe, and various unorthodox Christian beliefs were filtering into Europe from Jerusalem.

"Some of these beliefs permitted each person to find his or her own way to heaven and (primarily the well-organized and rapidly expanding Cathars and Waldensians) openly frowned on a wealthy, licentious church. Others were drawing away church members by competing claims of miraculous cures. All power brokers fear the expansion of the political powers of others while their own power shrinks.

"Such was the Church's fear of these competing beliefs. The Albigensian Crusade (1209-1229) was organized by Pope Innocent III to destroy the Cathars of southern France with their threatening doctrines and parallel organization of dioceses headed by bishops. This was only the largest of various efforts to suppress heresies since the middle of the tenth century. As with all crusades (the crusade of the Cold War is a very good example), this required a massive Social Control belief system (propaganda) portraying the Cathars as a dangerous enemy, in this case as infidels and heretics, to justify the slaughter of targeted people and theft of their wealth.

"The burning of heretics at the stake for 200 years coalesced between 1123 and 1206 into the formal Inquisition. In 1206 and 1210 Pope Innocent III founded the Franciscan and Dominican Mendicant Orders to preach against heresy; and in 1215 the Latern Council was held which listed 'clause by clause' heretical interpretations of the faith, the removal from office of heretics, confiscation of their property, excommunication, and their referral to the feudal lords for punishment.

"With the Cathars fleeing to other sections of Europe to escape certain death from zealous inquisitors and secular lords, between 1227 and 1252 Pope Gregory IX and Pope Innocent IV issued several bulls that further encoded and formalized the form of the Inquisition.

"'The Inquisition was ready to start work on a grand scale shortly after the mid-point of the thirteenth century' and, as the Christian sects went underground, Popes Alexander IX, Urban IV, Clement IV, and Boniface VIII issued bulls to maintain that momentum and root out the last vestiges of threat to their power.

"Franciscan and Dominican priests organized to lead heretics back to the fold evolved into a few zealous priests becoming inquisitors and torturers. They condemned hundreds of thousands of heretics to burn at the stake over a period of 700 years, the majority being Cathars, Waldensians, Jews, and Muslims; as they disappeared, Freemasons, alleged witches, midwives, and personal enemies were targeted.

"'Only the fear of losing power acquired over a period of a thousand years can satisfactorily explain such violent reactions.'1 That it was political power that was at stake was evident in the Albigensian Crusade and in the Spanish Inquisition. 'Wars are politics by other means' and the Cathar, Waldensian, Jewish, and Muslim communities were under assault by formal military forces led by Catholic secular powers."

lympian religion such as comfortably sustained Classical Civilization until the racial rot set in, and the issue of heresy and persecution in the derivatives of Judaism has had a prominence rising to a qualitative distinctiveness as compared with that in other faiths and philosophies. The implicit point stands that Odinism is obviously the native faith, with which faith the pattern of Kristian performance strongly contrasts as a highly contested and thus alien imposition or acquisition.

And I perfectly understand and affirm Mac's account of the Spanish Inquisition. Evidently you were not aware that there was another and more comprehensive Inquisition:

"The Roman emperors Constantine and Theodosius I, in the fourth century AD, stopped the persecution of the Christian church and, along with Justinian I 200 years later, essentially made the Catholic Church the state religion. Just as the wealth of today migrates toward tax shelters, over the next 700 years aristocracy migrated toward the tax-sheltered positions of power in the higher offices of the church, those of bishops, cardinals, and pope. Where the church and its people were once one, the church hierarchy (First Estate) and aristocracy (Second Estate) were now one; there was now a distinct division between the church leaders and the common people. From their new power base running the church, the combined First and Second Estates sold indulgences and salvations. The common people were terrified of purgatory (Hell) and the last bit of wealth could be extracted from those who hoped to be saved and go to heaven. Edward Burman, in The Inquisition, from which this chronology is taken, explains that with the returning Crusaders in the late eleventh and early twelfth centuries came many different Christian beliefs, others (called cults and heresies) were springing forth all over Europe, and various unorthodox Christian beliefs were filtering into Europe from Jerusalem.

"Some of these beliefs permitted each person to find his or her own way to heaven and (primarily the well-organized and rapidly expanding Cathars and Waldensians) openly frowned on a wealthy, licentious church. Others were drawing away church members by competing claims of miraculous cures. All power brokers fear the expansion of the political powers of others while their own power shrinks.

"Such was the Church's fear of these competing beliefs. The Albigensian Crusade (1209-1229) was organized by Pope Innocent III to destroy the Cathars of southern France with their threatening doctrines and parallel organization of dioceses headed by bishops. This was only the largest of various efforts to suppress heresies since the middle of the tenth century. As with all crusades (the crusade of the Cold War is a very good example), this required a massive Social Control belief system (propaganda) portraying the Cathars as a dangerous enemy, in this case as infidels and heretics, to justify the slaughter of targeted people and theft of their wealth.

"The burning of heretics at the stake for 200 years coalesced between 1123 and 1206 into the formal Inquisition. In 1206 and 1210 Pope Innocent III founded the Franciscan and Dominican Mendicant Orders to preach against heresy; and in 1215 the Latern Council was held which listed 'clause by clause' heretical interpretations of the faith, the removal from office of heretics, confiscation of their property, excommunication, and their referral to the feudal lords for punishment.

"With the Cathars fleeing to other sections of Europe to escape certain death from zealous inquisitors and secular lords, between 1227 and 1252 Pope Gregory IX and Pope Innocent IV issued several bulls that further encoded and formalized the form of the Inquisition.

"'The Inquisition was ready to start work on a grand scale shortly after the mid-point of the thirteenth century' and, as the Christian sects went underground, Popes Alexander IX, Urban IV, Clement IV, and Boniface VIII issued bulls to maintain that momentum and root out the last vestiges of threat to their power.

"Franciscan and Dominican priests organized to lead heretics back to the fold evolved into a few zealous priests becoming inquisitors and torturers. They condemned hundreds of thousands of heretics to burn at the stake over a period of 700 years, the majority being Cathars, Waldensians, Jews, and Muslims; as they disappeared, Freemasons, alleged witches, midwives, and personal enemies were targeted.

"'Only the fear of losing power acquired over a period of a thousand years can satisfactorily explain such violent reactions.'1 That it was political power that was at stake was evident in the Albigensian Crusade and in the Spanish Inquisition. 'Wars are politics by other means' and the Cathar, Waldensian, Jewish, and Muslim communities were under assault by formal military forces led by Catholic secular powers."

religion such as comfortably sustained Classical Civilization until the racial rot set in, and the issue of heresy and persecution in the derivatives of Judaism has had a prominence rising to a qualitative distinctiveness as compared with that in other faiths and philosophies. The implicit point stands that Odinism is obviously the native faith, with which faith the pattern of Kristian performance strongly contrasts as a highly contested and thus alien imposition or acquisition.

And I perfectly understand and affirm Mac's account of the Spanish Inquisition. Evidently you were not aware that there was another and more comprehensive Inquisition:

"The Roman emperors Constantine and Theodosius I, in the fourth century AD, stopped the persecution of the Christian church and, along with Justinian I 200 years later, essentially made the Catholic Church the state religion. Just as the wealth of today migrates toward tax shelters, over the next 700 years aristocracy migrated toward the tax-sheltered positions of power in the higher offices of the church, those of bishops, cardinals, and pope. Where the church and its people were once one, the church hierarchy (First Estate) and aristocracy (Second Estate) were now one; there was now a distinct division between the church leaders and the common people. From their new power base running the church, the combined First and Second Estates sold indulgences and salvations. The common people were terrified of purgatory (Hell) and the last bit of wealth could be extracted from those who hoped to be saved and go to heaven. Edward Burman, in The Inquisition, from which this chronology is taken, explains that with the returning Crusaders in the late eleventh and early twelfth centuries came many different Christian beliefs, others (called cults and heresies) were springing forth all over Europe, and various unorthodox Christian beliefs were filtering into Europe from Jerusalem.

"Some of these beliefs permitted each person to find his or her own way to heaven and (primarily the well-organized and rapidly expanding Cathars and Waldensians) openly frowned on a wealthy, licentious church. Others were drawing away church members by competing claims of miraculous cures. All power brokers fear the expansion of the political powers of others while their own power shrinks.

"Such was the Church's fear of these competing beliefs. The Albigensian Crusade (1209-1229) was organized by Pope Innocent III to destroy the Cathars of southern France with their threatening doctrines and parallel organization of dioceses headed by bishops. This was only the largest of various efforts to suppress heresies since the middle of the tenth century. As with all crusades (the crusade of the Cold War is a very good example), this required a massive Social Control belief system (propaganda) portraying the Cathars as a dangerous enemy, in this case as infidels and heretics, to justify the slaughter of targeted people and theft of their wealth.

"The burning of heretics at the stake for 200 years coalesced between 1123 and 1206 into the formal Inquisition. In 1206 and 1210 Pope Innocent III founded the Franciscan and Dominican Mendicant Orders to preach against heresy; and in 1215 the Latern Council was held which listed 'clause by clause' heretical interpretations of the faith, the removal from office of heretics, confiscation of their property, excommunication, and their referral to the feudal lords for punishment.

"With the Cathars fleeing to other sections of Europe to escape certain death from zealous inquisitors and secular lords, between 1227 and 1252 Pope Gregory IX and Pope Innocent IV issued several bulls that further encoded and formalized the form of the Inquisition.

"'The Inquisition was ready to start work on a grand scale shortly after the mid-point of the thirteenth century' and, as the Christian sects went underground, Popes Alexander IX, Urban IV, Clement IV, and Boniface VIII issued bulls to maintain that momentum and root out the last vestiges of threat to their power.

"Franciscan and Dominican priests organized to lead heretics back to the fold evolved into a few zealous priests becoming inquisitors and torturers. They condemned hundreds of thousands of heretics to burn at the stake over a period of 700 years, the majority being Cathars, Waldensians, Jews, and Muslims; as they disappeared, Freemasons, alleged witches, midwives, and personal enemies were targeted.

"'Only the fear of losing power acquired over a period of a thousand years can satisfactorily explain such violent reactions.'1 That it was political power that was at stake was evident in the Albigensian Crusade and in the Spanish Inquisition. 'Wars are politics by other means' and the Cathar, Waldensian, Jewish, and Muslim communities were under assault by formal military forces led by Catholic secular powers."

Mr. Arafat often attends the funerals of the “martyrs” of his nation. The press typically chooses to report that about 385 people have died in the bloodshed since September -- about 330 of them Palestinians -- without explaining the diabolical reason for many of these deaths.

“Palestinians don’t want peace,” said Tom Rose, “because Arafat is an unrepentant revolutionary.”

[img]http://home.att.net/~whitesox/israel/evds.jpg[/img]

Mr. Sharon’s victory, said Bret Stephens, editorial page writer for The Wall Street Journal Europe, was more than a vote against the policies of Ehud Barak. “[Sharon’s victory] was a decisive vote against the ‘peace process’ as it has been pursued by Mr. Barak,” wrote Mr. Stephens. “And it was a vote for Mr. Sharon; a man whose virtues became more attractive to Israelis as the country’s situation became direr … [Israelis] rejected submitting to the cant of liberal elites in order to win the approval of the Western governments.

They rejected a policy of giving without getting, as if only that could expiate the terrible guilt of their existence on this land.”

Following his victory, Mr. Sharon quickly faced pressure from other leaders in the region to continue making concessions to the Palestinians. Iraqi Foreign Minister Mohamed Said Al-Sahaf has already called Mr. Sharon a “criminal,” no doubt referring to Mr. Sharon’s authorization of the 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon to drive out Mr. Arafat’s PLO forces. y' and, as the Christian sects went underground, Popes Alexander IX, Urban IV, Clement IV, and Boniface VIII issued bulls to maintain that momentum and root out the last vestiges of threat to their power.

"Franciscan and Dominican priests organized to lead heretics back to the fold evolved into a few zealous priests becoming inquisitors and torturers. They condemned hundreds of thousands of heretics to burn at the stake over a period of 700 years, the majority being Cathars, Waldensians, Jews, and Muslims; as they disappeared, Freemasons, alleged witches, midwives, and personal enemies were targeted.

"'Only the fear of losing power acquired over a period of a thousand years can satisfactorily explain such violent reactions.'1 That it was political power that was at stake was evident in the Albigensian Crusade and in the Spanish Inquisition. 'Wars are politics by other means' and the Cathar, Waldensian, Jewish, and Muslim communities were under assault by formal military forces led by Catholic secular powers."

and, as the Christian sects went underground, Popes Alexander IX, Urban IV, Clement IV, and Boniface VIII issued bulls to maintain that momentum and root out the last vestiges of threat to their power.

"Franciscan and Dominican priests organized to lead heretics back to the fold evolved into a few zealous priests becoming inquisitors and torturers. They condemned hundreds of thousands of heretics to burn at the stake over a period of 700 years, the majority being Cathars, Waldensians, Jews, and Muslims; as they disappeared, Freemasons, alleged witches, midwives, and personal enemies were targeted.

"'Only the fear of losing power acquired over a period of a thousand years can satisfactorily explain such violent reactions.'1 That it was political power that was at stake was evident in the Albigensian Crusade and in the Spanish Inquisition. 'Wars are politics by other means' and the Cathar, Waldensian, Jewish, and Muslim communities were under assault by formal military forces led by Catholic secular powers."

the Christian sects went underground, Popes Alexander IX, Urban IV, Clement IV, and Boniface VIII issued bulls to maintain that momentum and root out the last vestiges of threat to their power.

"Franciscan and Dominican priests organized to lead heretics back to the fold evolved into a few zealous priests becoming inquisitors and torturers. They condemned hundreds of thousands of heretics to burn at the stake over a period of 700 years, the majority being Cathars, Waldensians, Jews, and Muslims; as they disappeared, Freemasons, alleged witches, midwives, and personal enemies were targeted.

"'Only the fear of losing power acquired over a period of a thousand years can satisfactorily explain such violent reactions.'1 That it was political power that was at stake was evident in the Albigensian Crusade and in the Spanish Inquisition. 'Wars are politics by other means' and the Cathar, Waldensian, Jewish, and Muslim communities were under assault by formal military forces led by Catholic secular powers."

While I unreservedly believe that Mr. Sharon is the right man to lead Israel today, the truth is that the opposition to his leadership within the region is sure to be increasingly heightened.

American Christians should be firmly in support of Mr. Sharon’s work to protect Jerusalem.y explain such violent reactions.'1 That it was political power that was at stake was evident in the Albigensian Crusade and in the Spanish Inquisition. 'Wars are politics by other means' and the Cathar, Waldensian, Jewish, and Muslim communities were under assault by formal military forces led by Catholic secular powers."

(“Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: May they prosper who love you.” -- Psalm 122: 6.)We must be praying for the peace of Jerusalem and for the Jewish people. And we must be encouraging our own government to be doing everything it can to prevent Mr. Arafat’s success in destroying this great nation. President George W. Bush needs to promptly make his administration a new beginning in American-Israeli relations.uld also be discarded because of its Arabic origins?**

First order of business of the Fourth Reich.**

Are you serious?**

Absolutely B)

---

Oklahomaman

2003-04-02 16:24 | User Profile

o be discarded because of its Arabic origins?**

First order of business of the Fourth Reich.**

Are you serious?**

Absolutely B)

---

Oklahomaman

2003-04-02 16:24 | User Profile

scarded because of its Arabic origins?**

First order of business of the Fourth Reich.**

Are you serious?**

Absolutely B)

---

Oklahomaman

2003-04-02 16:24 | User Profile

After Mr. Sharon’s government is in place, he must establish a 2001 budget, which the Knesset must pass by March 31. If that budget is not approved, new elections must be initiated for prime minister and parliament. Needless to say, this is a crucial time for this new leader.

After 32 visits to Israel, I can tell you that the grassroots of this tiny but momentous nation express great appreciation for the unswerving support of American Evangelicals who fervently pray for a strong and secure Israel. Let us not grow weary in well doing and continue to earnestly pray for Mr. Sharon rsecution in the derivatives of Judaism has had a prominence rising to a qualitative distinctiveness as compared with that in other faiths and philosophies." **

No longer defending nihilism are we? I don't blame you. What a sorry piece of work Nietzsche was. I think his books were meant as a practical joke on sophomoric people. After people buy into his "philosophy" spread it around, they walk around with a sort of a verbal "kick me I'm a complete idiot" sign. I AM THE CRUCIFIED. ROTFLMAO! What a joker!

Now that you are finally in on the joke of Nietzscheism, we can get down to the business at hand.

By the time Classical Civilization set in both the Greeks and Romans had essentially abandoned your "Olympian Religion" and were officially practicing Emperor-Worship which was imported from ahhhh so racially pure Egypt. The Germanic tribesmen who were Odinists couldn't even write until well after the fall of the Western Roman Empire. The Romans called the germanic peoples barbarians for good reason. Furthermore, the germanic tribesmen didn't classify people into nations or races but tribes and rather brutal inter-tribal warfare was their sorry lot until the coming of Christianity.

Secondly, if "Olympian Religion" didn't protect the racial purity of the ancients in the first place, what makes you think it will a second time around? And please don't say "It would have if they only hadn't abandoned it." That's only begging the question about the modern impulse to abandon Christianity.

and his efforts to bring peace -- and, most importantly, security -- to our friend, Israel. as compared with that in other faiths and philosophies." **

No longer defending nihilism are we? I don't blame you. What a sorry piece of work Nietzsche was. I think his books were meant as a practical joke on sophomoric people. After people buy into his "philosophy" spread it around, they walk around with a sort of a verbal "kick me I'm a complete idiot" sign. I AM THE CRUCIFIED. ROTFLMAO! What a joker!

Now that you are finally in on the joke of Nietzscheism, we can get down to the business at hand.

By the time Classical Civilization set in both the Greeks and Romans had essentially abandoned your "Olympian Religion" and were officially practicing Emperor-Worship which was imported from ahhhh so racially pure Egypt. The Germanic tribesmen who were Odinists couldn't even write until well after the fall of the Western Roman Empire. The Romans called the germanic peoples barbarians for good reason. Furthermore, the germanic tribesmen didn't classify people into nations or races but tribes and rather brutal inter-tribal warfare was their sorry lot until the coming of Christianity.

Secondly, if "Olympian Religion" didn't protect the racial purity of the ancients in the first place, what makes you think it will a second time around? And please don't say "It would have if they only hadn't abandoned it." That's only begging the question about the modern impulse to abandon Christianity.

ared with that in other faiths and philosophies." **

No longer defending nihilism are we? I don't blame you. What a sorry piece of work Nietzsche was. I think his books were meant as a practical joke on sophomoric people. After people buy into his "philosophy" spread it around, they walk around with a sort of a verbal "kick me I'm a complete idiot" sign. I AM THE CRUCIFIED. ROTFLMAO! What a joker!

Now that you are finally in on the joke of Nietzscheism, we can get down to the business at hand.

By the time Classical Civilization set in both the Greeks and Romans had essentially abandoned your "Olympian Religion" and were officially practicing Emperor-Worship which was imported from ahhhh so racially pure Egypt. The Germanic tribesmen who were Odinists couldn't even write until well after the fall of the Western Roman Empire. The Romans called the germanic peoples barbarians for good reason. Furthermore, the germanic tribesmen didn't classify people into nations or races but tribes and rather brutal inter-tribal warfare was their sorry lot until the coming of Christianity.

Secondly, if "Olympian Religion" didn't protect the racial purity of the ancients in the first place, what makes you think it will a second time around? And please don't say "It would have if they only hadn't abandoned it." That's only begging the question about the modern impulse to abandon Christianity.

th that in other faiths and philosophies." **

No longer defending nihilism are we? I don't blame you. What a sorry piece of work Nietzsche was. I think his books were meant as a practical joke on sophomoric people. After people buy into his "philosophy" spread it around, they walk around with a sort of a verbal "kick me I'm a complete idiot" sign. I AM THE CRUCIFIED. ROTFLMAO! What a joker!

Now that you are finally in on the joke of Nietzscheism, we can get down to the business at hand.

By the time Classical Civilization set in both the Greeks and Romans had essentially abandoned your "Olympian Religion" and were officially practicing Emperor-Worship which was imported from ahhhh so racially pure Egypt. The Germanic tribesmen who were Odinists couldn't even write until well after the fall of the Western Roman Empire. The Romans called the germanic peoples barbarians for good reason. Furthermore, the germanic tribesmen didn't classify people into nations or races but tribes and rather brutal inter-tribal warfare was their sorry lot until the coming of Christianity.

Secondly, if "Olympian Religion" didn't protect the racial purity of the ancients in the first place, what makes you think it will a second time around? And please don't say "It would have if they only hadn't abandoned it." That's only begging the question about the modern impulse to abandon Christianity.

---

Okiereddust

2003-04-01 15:17 | User Profile

**During his final days in office, Mr. Barak had offered the Palestinians a state in about 95 percent of the West Bank and control over parts of Jerusalem. In addition, according to a New York Post report, Mr. Barak had also indicated a willingness to partially relinquish Israeli sovereignty over the Temple Mount in the Old City of Jerusalem, where the Al Aqsa Mosque stands above the ruins of the sacred biblical Jewish Temples.

Mr. Barak, seemingly a willing dupe of President Clinton and rabble-rouser James Carville, was convinced by the Democrat leadership in the U.S. to make unnecessary concessions to the Palestinians even though history proves that these concessions do nothing to appease Yassir Arafat, the terrorist leader of the Palestinian Liberation Organization. The PLO has long sought the destruction of Israel, which became independent on May 14, 1948**

In truth there have been a lot of people, not kneejerk defenders of Israel, who have criticized Arafat's rejection of the Barak plan and think it undoubtedly strengthened the hand of those who always questioned his competency, reliability, and sincerity as a leader, and brought into question the whole peace process of trying to negotiate with him. The Yugoslavian correspondant for Chronicles for instance thought this.

There are a number of ironies regarding Farwell's support for Israel vs. Jews role in American domestic politics, but Farwell and the other evangelicals I'm sure misses these completely.

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eric von zipper

2003-04-01 15:48 | User Profile

Poor stupid, all too willing dupe Falwell has obviously been bought off. I suspect most of those 32 freakin trips have been freebies.

This hawg jawed simpleton was emasculated by the tribe years ago when the Moral Majority had its 15 minutes of fame and now he is seeking to resurrect himself from non person status by sucking up to his persecuters so he can get some face time on TV.

Falwell is one of life's unfortunate souls whose character is writ large on his face. And Hawg Jaw's character can be summed up as one in which he will always reach for one more jelly donut.

And in order to get that last donut he doesn't care whose butt he has to kiss.

As for that sweetheart deal that Arafat supposedly turned down. I don't care what some guy in Kosovo says, I don't believe it. My recollection is that it was a typical mid eastern deal. Neither party was really happy with it. It had to be couched in diplomatic pettifoggery to obscure the fact that neither knew what the hell the specific details would turn out to be. And that it had to be couched such that both parties could present it to their constituents as a win for their side. It contained Talmudical details that only tribesmen could dream up such as we'll have control over the surface of Jerusalem and you will have control over any underground areas. What the f*** is that supposed to mean? To me it means if your house is on fire call me and I will decide whether or not to send a fire engine. And the Israelis have a very poor record in Jerusalem for sending fire trucks when arab or Christian property is burning.

Anyway, the war criminal Sharon queered the deal by staging a provocation at the Temple Mount purposely contrived to provoke an arab riot. And we are still dealing with that riot - the infitada.

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Valley Forge

2003-04-01 17:57 | User Profile

Originally posted by The Skunk@Apr 1 2003, 14:18 ** .. **

Hello Skunk! It's great to see you here...

I think I can speak for everyone when I say we are all looking forward to many more of your posts exposing the malignant influence of the Jew.

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Valley Forge

2003-04-01 18:02 | User Profile

VF...Instead, many WNs choose to villify Christians. Many even resort to language so hateful sounds like something out of the Talmud. This group doesn't seem to realize that in any contest between WN and religion, WN will lose every time.

NN: Precisely.

NN, could you elaborate on your answer please?

Is this an admission that when it comes to seeking converts to WN, there is no strategic advantage to attacking Christians?

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Ragnar

2003-04-01 18:58 | User Profile

Originally posted by Valley Forge@Apr 1 2003, 18:02 ** ...Instead, many WNs choose to villify Christians. Many even resort to language so hateful sounds like something out of the Talmud. **

The part they really miss is that the hate in the Talmud predates Christianity and will post date it if no one recognizes it for what it is.

Just tell neopagans that when they dump on Jesus, they hit Mithra and Osiris too. Schwaller R. A. Lubicz was adamant on that. Symbolically these are equivalent figures. So how come they are hated equivalently in some parts? It's a good question and not only for pagans.

Both neopagans and Christians might note that there's been two books in the last season about the so-called "Exodus papyrus" that indicates an antagonism quite literally racist and going back over 3000 years.

Irony: Jesus is hated by Talmudic commentators because he is seen as pagan; Jesus is hated by pagans because he is seen as not pagan.

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NeoNietzsche

2003-04-01 21:36 | User Profile

Originally posted by Valley Forge@Apr 1 2003, 12:02 **VF...Instead, many WNs choose to villify Christians. Many even resort to language so hateful sounds like something out of the Talmud. This group doesn't seem to realize that in any contest between WN and religion, WN will lose every time.

NN: Precisely.

NN, could you elaborate on your answer please?

Is this an admission that when it comes to seeking converts to WN, there is no strategic advantage to attacking Christians?**

It is, in effect, your admission that WN and the religion to be associated with it are not properly allied and that the latter takes precedence where the two are uncoordinated. This is obviously the case because the religion in question is, in part, an alien imposition and thus allegiance thereto is a form of treason aside from its unreason and inhibition. If a Kristian cannot overcome himself as such, he misrepresents himself as a "White Nationalist". If he wishes to be a theist, he needs to have an allied rather than an alien faith. This is the reason that the Interrogatory includes the question about the name of the Kristian God of War.

I suppose that one must concede that there is no strategic advantage to "attacking" anyone one hopes to convert. I note, however, that the inability of Kristians to handle matters of substance seems to incline them to the feeling that they have been "attacked" rather than engaged. TD, for example and by his own admission, over-reacted to my remark about no Jewish lies lacking believers amongst the Morons. Obviously some sensitivity there and the reason for the question in the Interrogatory about Jewish lying .

---

NeoNietzsche

2003-04-02 01:40 | User Profile

Originally posted by AntiYuppie@Apr 1 2003, 17:33 Where I disagree with you is in your claim that just because aspects of Christian theology had their roots in an alien culture that Christianity in its Occidental form is alien to the West.

How many Odinist heretics and protestants had to be burnt at the stake or otherwise dispatched by orthodox Odinists? Can one imagine an Odinist Witch Trial, an Odinist Inquisition, or an Odinist Canossa? What about an Odinist crusade to "liberate" Jerusalem?

Originally posted by AntiYuppie@Apr 1 2003, 17:33 ** I suppose that the number system should also be discarded because of its Arabic origins?**

First order of business of the Fourth Reich.

---

Okiereddust

2003-04-02 03:36 | User Profile

Originally posted by NeoNietzsche@Apr 2 2003, 01:40 How many Odinist heretics and protestants had to be burnt at the stake or otherwise dispatched by orthodox Odinists?  Can one imagine an Odinist Witch Trial, an Odinist Inquisition, or an Odinist Canossa?  What about an Odinist crusade to "liberate" Jerusalem?

One can't imagine these things because one cannot imagine Odinism as a viable, substantative religion with mass appeal. Going back to the West's pagan roots, of course there were persecutions of Christians. Although every religion has its own flavor or persecutions.

Also, you haven't read much of MacDonald in SAID have you? If you'd read that, or understood anything about the Spanish Inquisition as he articulates it, I doubt if you would be criticizing it, or at least using it as a bete noire. It was in fact a classic example of a western society ingroup trying to protect itself against outgroup subversion the "New Christians" aka the Marranos

> Originally posted by AntiYuppie@Apr 1 2003, 17:33 ** I suppose that the number system should also be discarded because of its Arabic origins?

First order of business of the Fourth Reich.

**

Are you serious?

---

NeoNietzsche

2003-04-02 13:33 | User Profile

Originally posted by Okiereddust@Apr 1 2003, 21:36 > Originally posted by NeoNietzsche@Apr 2 2003, 01:40 How many Odinist heretics and protestants had to be burnt at the stake or otherwise dispatched by orthodox Odinists?  Can one imagine an Odinist Witch Trial, an Odinist Inquisition, or an Odinist Canossa?  What about an Odinist crusade to "liberate" Jerusalem?**

One can't imagine these things because one cannot imagine Odinism as a viable, substantative religion with mass appeal. Going back to the West's pagan roots, of course there were persecutions of Christians. Although every religion has its own flavor or persecutions.

Also, you haven't read much of MacDonald in SAID have you? If you'd read that, or understood anything about the Spanish Inquisition as he articulates it, I doubt if you would be criticizing it, or at least using it as a bete noire. It was in fact a classic example of a western society ingroup trying to protect itself against outgroup subversion the "New Christians" aka the Marranos

> Originally posted by AntiYuppie@Apr 1 2003, 17:33 ** I suppose that the number system should also be discarded because of its Arabic origins?

First order of business of the Fourth Reich.

**

Are you serious?**

Where does the pattern of history tell us that we must have a dominant "viable substantive religion with mass appeal"? Odinism is an Olympian religion such as comfortably sustained Classical Civilization until the racial rot set in, and the issue of heresy and persecution in the derivatives of Judaism has had a prominence rising to a qualitative distinctiveness as compared with that in other faiths and philosophies. The implicit point stands that Odinism is obviously the native faith, with which faith the pattern of Kristian performance strongly contrasts as a highly contested and thus alien imposition or acquisition.

And I perfectly understand and affirm Mac's account of the Spanish Inquisition. Evidently you were not aware that there was another and more comprehensive Inquisition:

"The Roman emperors Constantine and Theodosius I, in the fourth century AD, stopped the persecution of the Christian church and, along with Justinian I 200 years later, essentially made the Catholic Church the state religion. Just as the wealth of today migrates toward tax shelters, over the next 700 years aristocracy migrated toward the tax-sheltered positions of power in the higher offices of the church, those of bishops, cardinals, and pope. Where the church and its people were once one, the church hierarchy (First Estate) and aristocracy (Second Estate) were now one; there was now a distinct division between the church leaders and the common people. From their new power base running the church, the combined First and Second Estates sold indulgences and salvations. The common people were terrified of purgatory (Hell) and the last bit of wealth could be extracted from those who hoped to be saved and go to heaven. Edward Burman, in The Inquisition, from which this chronology is taken, explains that with the returning Crusaders in the late eleventh and early twelfth centuries came many different Christian beliefs, others (called cults and heresies) were springing forth all over Europe, and various unorthodox Christian beliefs were filtering into Europe from Jerusalem.

"Some of these beliefs permitted each person to find his or her own way to heaven and (primarily the well-organized and rapidly expanding Cathars and Waldensians) openly frowned on a wealthy, licentious church. Others were drawing away church members by competing claims of miraculous cures. All power brokers fear the expansion of the political powers of others while their own power shrinks.

"Such was the Church's fear of these competing beliefs. The Albigensian Crusade (1209-1229) was organized by Pope Innocent III to destroy the Cathars of southern France with their threatening doctrines and parallel organization of dioceses headed by bishops. This was only the largest of various efforts to suppress heresies since the middle of the tenth century. As with all crusades (the crusade of the Cold War is a very good example), this required a massive Social Control belief system (propaganda) portraying the Cathars as a dangerous enemy, in this case as infidels and heretics, to justify the slaughter of targeted people and theft of their wealth.

"The burning of heretics at the stake for 200 years coalesced between 1123 and 1206 into the formal Inquisition. In 1206 and 1210 Pope Innocent III founded the Franciscan and Dominican Mendicant Orders to preach against heresy; and in 1215 the Latern Council was held which listed 'clause by clause' heretical interpretations of the faith, the removal from office of heretics, confiscation of their property, excommunication, and their referral to the feudal lords for punishment.

"With the Cathars fleeing to other sections of Europe to escape certain death from zealous inquisitors and secular lords, between 1227 and 1252 Pope Gregory IX and Pope Innocent IV issued several bulls that further encoded and formalized the form of the Inquisition.

"'The Inquisition was ready to start work on a grand scale shortly after the mid-point of the thirteenth century' and, as the Christian sects went underground, Popes Alexander IX, Urban IV, Clement IV, and Boniface VIII issued bulls to maintain that momentum and root out the last vestiges of threat to their power.

"Franciscan and Dominican priests organized to lead heretics back to the fold evolved into a few zealous priests becoming inquisitors and torturers. They condemned hundreds of thousands of heretics to burn at the stake over a period of 700 years, the majority being Cathars, Waldensians, Jews, and Muslims; as they disappeared, Freemasons, alleged witches, midwives, and personal enemies were targeted.

"'Only the fear of losing power acquired over a period of a thousand years can satisfactorily explain such violent reactions.'1 That it was political power that was at stake was evident in the Albigensian Crusade and in the Spanish Inquisition. 'Wars are politics by other means' and the Cathar, Waldensian, Jewish, and Muslim communities were under assault by formal military forces led by Catholic secular powers."

> > Originally posted by AntiYuppie@Apr 1 2003, 17:33 ** I suppose that the number system should also be discarded because of its Arabic origins?**

First order of business of the Fourth Reich.**

Are you serious?**

Absolutely B)

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Oklahomaman

2003-04-02 16:24 | User Profile

** Odinism is an Olympian religion such as comfortably sustained Classical Civilization until the racial rot set in, and the issue of heresy and persecution in the derivatives of Judaism has had a prominence rising to a qualitative distinctiveness as compared with that in other faiths and philosophies." **

No longer defending nihilism are we? I don't blame you. What a sorry piece of work Nietzsche was. I think his books were meant as a practical joke on sophomoric people. After people buy into his "philosophy" spread it around, they walk around with a sort of a verbal "kick me I'm a complete idiot" sign. I AM THE CRUCIFIED. ROTFLMAO! What a joker!

Now that you are finally in on the joke of Nietzscheism, we can get down to the business at hand.

By the time Classical Civilization set in both the Greeks and Romans had essentially abandoned your "Olympian Religion" and were officially practicing Emperor-Worship which was imported from ahhhh so racially pure Egypt. The Germanic tribesmen who were Odinists couldn't even write until well after the fall of the Western Roman Empire. The Romans called the germanic peoples barbarians for good reason. Furthermore, the germanic tribesmen didn't classify people into nations or races but tribes and rather brutal inter-tribal warfare was their sorry lot until the coming of Christianity.

Secondly, if "Olympian Religion" didn't protect the racial purity of the ancients in the first place, what makes you think it will a second time around? And please don't say "It would have if they only hadn't abandoned it." That's only begging the question about the modern impulse to abandon Christianity.

** The implicit point stands that Odinism is obviously the native faith, with which faith the pattern of Kristian performance strongly contrasts as a highly contested and thus alien imposition or acquisition.**

In the final analysis, your "Olympian Religion" cannot survive your own principle critique of Christianity for the "native religion" of the Indo-Europeans was not "Olympian Religion" but ancestor worship. The story of Romulus and the founding of Rome is a carry over from such religious practices. "Olympian Religion", like the alphabet, was an import, from the gasp semitic peoples of Mesopotamia via the equally semitic Phoenicians. I will pay you back with your own coin: If you posit that Christianity is alien then I tender the widespread theory that Judaism developed along these lines: polytheistic -> henotheistic -> monotheistic. And as such, Judaism and "Olympian Religion", in all likelyhood, share a common ancestor - Semitic Polytheism.

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Okiereddust

2003-04-02 20:50 | User Profile

Originally posted by NeoNietzsche@Apr 2 2003, 13:33 > Originally posted by Okiereddust@Apr 1 2003, 21:36 > Originally posted by NeoNietzsche@Apr 2 2003, 01:40 How many Odinist heretics and protestants had to be burnt at the stake or otherwise dispatched by orthodox Odinists?  Can one imagine an Odinist Witch Trial, an Odinist Inquisition, or an Odinist Canossa?  What about an Odinist crusade to "liberate" Jerusalem?

One can't imagine these things because one cannot imagine Odinism as a viable, substantative religion with mass appeal. Going back to the West's pagan roots, of course there were persecutions of Christians. Although every religion has its own flavor or persecutions.**

1. Where does the pattern of history tell us that we must have a dominant "viable substantive religion with mass appeal"?.... 2. The implicit point stands that Odinism is obviously the native faith, with which faith the pattern of Kristian performance strongly contrasts as a highly contested and thus alien imposition or acquisition.**

2. It certainly tells us that we must have a "viable substantive religion with mass appeal" if we are going to have things like pass Odinist heresy persecutions, an Odinist Witch Trial, an Odinist Inquisition, or an Odinist Canossa, or an Odinist crusade to "liberate" Jerusalem. None of these things obviously has hapeened with Odinists, simply because it has just a tiny number of adherents, and it is arguable to me at least how many of these even really take it seriously. Like any tiny movement it accomplishes little, neither good nor bad.

And I perfectly understand and affirm Mac's account of the Spanish Inquisition.  Evidently you were not aware that there was another and more comprehensive Inquisition:

Doubtless there were many, just as you describe by your fascinating account. And one wonders exactly if a a modern WN/NS sympathizer isn't being a little hypocritical for criticizing persecution of Jews, Freemasons, and even Muslims. But the term inquisition in popular parlance generally refers to its best known varient, that of Spain.

> > > Originally posted by AntiYuppie@Apr 1 2003, 17:33 ** I suppose that the number system should also be discarded because of its Arabic origins?

First order of business of the 4th Reich.**

Are you serious?**

Absolutely B)**

What will the "4th Reich" look like in non-Arabic numerals?

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NeoNietzsche

2003-04-02 21:00 | User Profile

Originally posted by Oklahomaman@Apr 2 2003, 10:24 **> ** Odinism is an Olympian religion such as comfortably sustained Classical Civilization until the racial rot set in, and the issue of heresy and persecution in the derivatives of Judaism has had a prominence rising to a qualitative distinctiveness as compared with that in other faiths and philosophies." **

No longer defending nihilism are we? I don't blame you. What a sorry piece of work Nietzsche was. I think his books were meant as a practical joke on sophomoric people. After people buy into his "philosophy" spread it around, they walk around with a sort of a verbal "kick me I'm a complete idiot" sign. I AM THE CRUCIFIED. ROTFLMAO! What a joker!

Now that you are finally in on the joke of Nietzscheism, we can get down to the business at hand.

By the time Classical Civilization set in both the Greeks and Romans had essentially abandoned your "Olympian Religion" and were officially practicing Emperor-Worship which was imported from ahhhh so racially pure Egypt. The Germanic tribesmen who were Odinists couldn't even write until well after the fall of the Western Roman Empire. The Romans called the germanic peoples barbarians for good reason. Furthermore, the germanic tribesmen didn't classify people into nations or races but tribes and rather brutal inter-tribal warfare was their sorry lot until the coming of Christianity.

Secondly, if "Olympian Religion" didn't protect the racial purity of the ancients in the first place, what makes you think it will a second time around? And please don't say "It would have if they only hadn't abandoned it." That's only begging the question about the modern impulse to abandon Christianity.

** The implicit point stands that Odinism is obviously the native faith, with which faith the pattern of Kristian performance strongly contrasts as a highly contested and thus alien imposition or acquisition.**

In the final analysis, your "Olympian Religion" cannot survive your own principle critique of Christianity for the "native religion" of the Indo-Europeans was not "Olympian Religion" but ancestor worship. The story of Romulus and the founding of Rome is a carry over from such religious practices. "Olympian Religion", like the alphabet, was an import, from the gasp semitic peoples of Mesopotamia via the equally semitic Phoenicians. I will pay you back with your own coin: If you posit that Christianity is alien then I tender the widespread theory that Judaism developed along these lines: polytheistic -> henotheistic -> monotheistic. And as such, Judaism and "Olympian Religion", in all likelyhood, share a common ancestor - Semitic Polytheism.**

No longer defending nihilism are we?

The defense of Nihilism was not pertinent to the discussion. Please pay attention.

What a sorry piece of work Nietzsche was.  I think his books were meant as a practical joke on sophomoric people.  After people buy into his "philosophy" spread it around, they walk around with a sort of a verbal "kick me I'm a complete idiot" sign.  I AM THE CRUCIFIED.  ROTFLMAO!  What a joker!

Your assessment of Nietzsche does not speak well of your attention to scholarship. Perhaps you are young and yet have time to rectify this oversight.

By the time Classical Civilization set in both the Greeks and Romans had essentially abandoned your "Olympian Religion" and were officially practicing Emperor-Worship which was imported from ahhhh so racially pure Egypt.

A ludicrous assertion regarding the Greeks, who were centuries classically civilized before unification under a Macedonian king, who was never - and was never worshipped as - an emperor. The Romans likewise, before the Roman emperor (who became the emperor of the conquered Greeks) was progressively elevated with the evolution of the Roman state in a seemingly natural and native process as the demands of the state required. There was no premature importation of an unsuitable Egyptian model. Emperor-worship was the beginning of the end of Classical culture, not co-extensive with it as you suggest. And Olympian religion is not being defended here as a racially prophylactic measure. Please pay attention.

The Romans called the germanic peoples barbarians for good reason.  Furthermore, the germanic tribesmen didn't classify people into nations or races but tribes and rather brutal inter-tribal warfare was their sorry lot until the coming of Christianity.

True, but not pertinent.

Secondly, if "Olympian Religion" didn't protect the racial purity of the ancients in the first place, what makes you think it will a second time around?  And please don't say "It would have if they only hadn't abandoned it."  That's only begging the question about the modern impulse to abandon Christianity.

I do not think it would and did not suggest that it would. Pay attention.

In the final analysis, your "Olympian Religion" cannot survive your own principle critique of  Christianity for the "native religion" of the Indo-Europeans was not "Olympian Religion" but ancestor worship.  The story of  Romulus and the founding of Rome is a carry over from such religious practices.  "Olympian Religion", like the alphabet, was an import, from the gasp semitic peoples of Mesopotamia via the equally semitic Phoenicians.  I will pay you back with your own coin:  If you posit that Christianity is alien then I tender the widespread theory that  Judaism developed along these lines:  polytheistic -> henotheistic -> monotheistic. And as such, Judaism and "Olympian Religion", in all likelyhood, share a common ancestor - Semitic Polytheism.

As if the Semites invented polytheism - which has been, rather, a natural, evolutionary, and parallel (rather than derivative, as you suggest) development for peoples all around the globe. Olympian religion in general can only ludicrously be referred to as an "import". It evolved amongst many peoples from an IE nucleus, with appendages in varying degree. Whatever may qualify (as below) the pure nativeness of the Greco-Roman faith may not be said of the remote Odinism which is pertinent to the discussion. The following material (which makes your best case) will instruct you in the proper qualification of your otherwise laughable position:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Thus modern philology has effectively demonstrated that Greek mythology is to at least some extent inherited from a mythology that was originally common to all the Indo-European peoples. It is difficult to be very specific about the forms that this mythology took: we do not have a body of Indo-European poetry that contains myths as elaborate as those of the Greeks, and the myths that do survive in ancient Indian or Irish poetry differ from the Greek myths in many respects. Nevertheless, it seems reasonable to assume that the Greeks did not invent their mythology entirely, but rather that their invention took place within certain parameters established by earlier cultures.

"But What Did the Greeks Think?

"We have referred more than once to Herodotus' famous dictum that it was Hesiod and Homer that gave the Greeks their gods. But Herodotus surely did not think of the two poets as simply inventing the Olympian religion; rather they gave artistc form to what became extremely influential ways of thinking about the gods among later Greek culture. Herodotus also thought that the Greeks borrowed or inherited elements of their mythology from older cultures. But Herodotus and the other Greeks knew nothing about the Indo-European hypothesis. Instead, they tended to suppose that their culture was borrowed from the "older" civilizations of the Mediterranean with whom the Greeks were in contact through trade, colonization, warfare, and so forth. The two main cultures involved were the Phoenicians and the Egyptians.

"Linguistically, these cultures were outside the Indo-European family, and the general shape of their religious systems too differs from that of the Greeks. Nevertheless, Herodotus did not shrink from tracing certain Greek institutions to the Egyptians in particular, and from identifying certain Greek gods and goddesses with Egyptian counterparts. There is, moreover, the myth of Io and her descendants Io was the daughter of the King of Argos. Seduced by Zeus, she wandered to Egypt and gave birth to a child, Epaphus. Epaphus became the father of Libya -- the name of a large part of northern Africa -- and of Belus, who in turn became the father of Danaus and Aegyptus. Danaus returned to his ancestral Argos, while Aegyptus became king of Egypt. (A portion of this myth is the subject of Aeschylus' Suppliants or Suppliant Maidens.) Thus, according to this myth, the Greeks and the Egyptians were actually related through their ancestors Danaus and Aegyptus, two brothers descended from the Argive heroine Io.

"Another myth concerns the foundation of Thebes by Cadmus, who comes to Greece from Phoenicia. One of the deeds ascribed to Cadmus is the invention of the alphabet; and in fact, it is clear that the Greek alphabet (from which our alphabet is descended) was borrowed from that of the Phoenicians. So the myth of Cadmus, which traces the origin of a centrally important Greek cultural institution to Phoenicia, appears to contain a nucleus of historical fact.

"Greece and 'the Orient'

"In the reading for today, Walter Burkert discusses the meaning of parallels that have been observed between certain Greek myths (Heracles; the succession myth; Perseus and the Gorgon) and a number of apparently similar myths found in Near Eastern cultures. For some years now scholars have explored the relationship between Greek and Near Eastern cultures, for which myths like the ones discussed by Burkert offer an important class of evidence. But it is an open question just what such parallel myths mean. Are they cases of borrowings by a 'younger' Greek culture from the 'older' civilizations of Mesopotamia, Egypt, or the Levant? Are they evidence that Greek culture was part of a larger, international culture that thrived in the Eastern Mediterranean throughout antiquity, a culture in which myths circulated freely and were constantly adapted to satisfy local conditions? Or are the similarities between Greek and Near Eastern material due less to the fact that these civilizations were in contact with one another, and more to the status of mythology as a kind of 'universal language' that speaks to the human condition at a basic level that transcends cultural difference?"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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NeoNietzsche

2003-04-02 21:46 | User Profile

1. It certainly tells us that we must have a "viable substantive religion with mass appeal" if we are going to have things like pass Odinist heresy persecutions, an Odinist Witch Trial, an Odinist Inquisition, or an Odinist Canossa, or an Odinist crusade to "liberate" Jerusalem. None of these things obviously has happened with Odinists, simply because it has just a tiny number of adherents, and it is arguable to me at least how many of these even really take it seriously. Like any tiny movement it accomplishes little, neither good nor bad.

Nor did these things happen in the historic, pre-and-proto-Kristian context which is relevant to the discussion, as is the point. We are discussing the "alien-ness" of historically disruptive Kristianity in contrast to the seemingly undisturbed naturalness of the historically precedent faith. The insignificance of Odinism presently is beside that point, and I do not endorse it as other than a prescription for those WN who simply must have a faith.

Doubtless there were many [Inquisitions], just as you describe by your fascinating account.  And one wonders exactly if a modern WN/NS sympathizer isn't being a little hypocritical for criticizing persecution of Jews, Freemasons, and even Muslims.  But the term inquisition in popular parlance generally refers to its best known variant, that of Spain.

I am not criticizing persecution of Jews and Muslims (basically the Spanish episode which I earlier endorsed) and am not even being critical in general. The point is the implicit manifestation of alien-ness in the extraordinary persecution, as described, of "Kristians" by "Kristians" in the earlier, larger, and longer Inquisition to which scholars have reference by that unqualified term.

What will the "4th Reich" look like in non-Arabic numerals?

Reich IV

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askel5

2003-04-06 04:37 | User Profile

Originally posted by amundsen@Mar 30 2003, 09:09 ** The Bible is the foundation on which Christian doctrine and practice should rest. **

Given that the Bible was the product of apostolic tradition, this can't be true.

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Ragnar

2003-04-06 08:22 | User Profile

Originally posted by Oklahomaman@Apr 2 2003, 16:24 ** By the time Classical Civilization set in both the Greeks and Romans had essentially abandoned your "Olympian Religion" and were officially practicing Emperor-Worship which was imported from ahhhh so racially pure Egypt. **

It matters little, but this is ahistorical. The confabulation that "pharaoh was god" is a modern invention. The pharaoh was often referred to as "neter" which is translated as "god" but more often means "guardian"; pharaoh was hence the guardian of state and protector of the realm.

What irks me is that the correct information is easily obtained but even history books repeat the old yarn about Egyptians "worshipping their pharaoh like a god". This would come as news to the two pharaohs of the 18th Dynasty who were cashiered for incompetence.

But then maybe firing god might have been fun... :P

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NeoNietzsche

2003-04-12 14:12 | User Profile

[From a VNN contribution:]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The bishop mixed Latin sentences into the baptism speech. The words of the ceremony flew like confused night birds over the grounds and found nowhere the hearts of the listeners. So their effect was lost like the smoke from incense. The climax of the ceremony seemed to be past. Ratbod's eye mustered the group of his people surely and firmly, who lacked reverence just like he himself.

The priest portrayed the holiness of the baptized and painted the hell torment of the damned who did not want to hear the word of the High Priest in Rome. Now Wulfram of Sens turned to Ratbod himself:

"Take then, King, the water of baptism, so that you, freed of all sins, may one day enter heaven with the throngs of believers, to sit at the right of the omniscient God from eternity to eternity, while all those go to hell, who die unbaptized."

Then Ratbod's voice interrupted the speaking bishop.

He asked in the language of his ancestors:

"You have said, priest, that I shall go to heaven if I allow myself to be baptized? Now tell me, priest, where are my parents, who are dead and had never been baptized?!"

Terror spread through the ranks of the group of priests, because the holy act had been so unexpectedly interrupted. The bishop, completely in the enthusiasm of the conversion, threw out the words:

"All of them are with the devil in hell, because they died as pagans!"

Then Rotbad kicked the clay pan with the holy water so that it fell to the ground and burst into fragments. And he hurled his free words into the priest's face:

"Then I want to tell you, priest, I would rather go to my parents and the devil in hell than with you priests to heaven!"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What would Kathy Churchgoer say to this insolence, boys and girls?

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weisbrot

2003-04-13 23:36 | User Profile

She might think, as do I, that this Gerhard is shoveling a big load of crap. He reads like a Star Trekkie-novel ghostwriter going medieval.

Next thought: Why do you even care? If you're looking for burnt offerings or perhaps some incense, start your own religion.

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