← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · Dan Dare
Thread ID: 5086 | Posts: 11 | Started: 2003-02-18
2003-02-18 17:57 | User Profile
This one has been bubbling up for a while. Just imagine the next time the English soccer fans launch into a rousing chorus of 'Inky, pinky parlez vous' or 'Hitler, only had one b*ll,...' (tune of Col. Bogey) in some corner of a foreign field. And the local rozzers try to apprehend them for thought crimes. Very tasty.
[url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml[/url]
Britons face extradition for 'thought crime' on net By Philip Johnston, Home Affairs Editor (Filed: 18/02/2003)
British citizens will be extradited for what critics have called a "thought crime" under a new European arrest warrant, the Government has conceded.
Campaigners fear they could even face trial for broadcasting "xenophobic or racist" remarks - such as denying the Holocaust - on an internet chatroom in another country.
The Government has undertaken that if such "offences" take place in Britain the perpetrators would not be extradited - but it will be for the courts to decide the location of the crime.
This opens up the prospect of a judge agreeing to extradite someone whose observations, though made in Britain, were broadcast exclusively in a country where they constitute a crime.
Legislation now before Parliament will make "xenophobia and racism" one of 32 crimes for which the European arrest warrant can be issued without the existing safeguard of dual criminality. This requires that an extraditable offence must also be a crime in the UK.
Alongside the arrest warrant, EU ministers are negotiating a new directive to establish a common set of offences to criminalise xenophobia and racism.
Countries such as Germany and Austria have crimes such as denying the Holocaust which have no equivalent in Britain. Under current laws, if a British citizen committed this offence in Germany and returned to the UK, he could not be extradited.
However, this will change when the arrest warrant becomes law next year. Lord Filkin, the Home Office minister, told MPs: "If someone went to Germany and stood up in Cologne market place and shouted the odds, denying the Holocaust, and then came back [to Britain], they would be subject to extradition under the European arrest warrant."
Holocaust denial laws are in place in seven EU countries but they would be a big departure for Britain, where a risk of fomenting public disorder is needed before a thought becomes a crime.
A German historian who claimed that Auschwitz prisoners enjoyed cinemas, a swimming pool and brothels was sentenced to 10 months in jail.
Lord Filkin has insisted that no one would be extradited "in respect of conduct which has occurred here and which is legal here". But when he was asked by the European scrutiny committee of the House of Commons whether comments originating in Britain but carried abroad on television or through an internet chatroom would be extraditable, he said: "It will be for the courts to decide."
While he was adamant that a British citizen would not be extradited for a xenophobia or racism offence if part of the conduct took place in the UK, the committee asked whether this principle would be made clear in the Extradition Bill now before Parliament.
The proposed EU directive would extend the offences of racism and xenophobia to include discrimination on the grounds of religious conviction - something that was dropped by the Government more than a year ago following fierce opposition.
Britain has negotiated a deal under which the offences will only apply when they involve incitement to violence. Lord Filkin said this was in line with current UK race laws.
However, Britain has been forced to concede a review after two years at which point the directive could be extended to opinions that are simply considered offensive and not just those likely to incite violence. Agreement on the directive has been held up because some EU countries want a "low threshold for criminality on these issues".
Philip Duly, campaign manager for the Freedom Association, said the Government should protect citizens from extradition for what he called "thought crimes".
He added: "The Government has previously maintained that no one will be extradited for conduct which is not a crime in the UK. But here we have Lord Filkin admitting that there are circumstances which will be decided not by ministers but by courts."
2003-02-18 18:42 | User Profile
Stuff like this makes me realize just how masterful the US Constitution is. Although it's been pretty much whited-out and ignored for the past 9 decades as we've slid into democracy, it has managed to keep overt tyranny such as thought-crime laws off of our shores. So far.
2003-02-19 02:37 | User Profile
Stuff like this makes me realize just how masterful the US Constitution is. Although it's been pretty much whited-out and ignored for the past 9 decades as we've slid into democracy, it has managed to keep overt tyranny such as thought-crime laws off of our shores. So far. ** ** Patriot Acts I, II, and the forthcoming III, like marine raiders with guns blazing, are preparing to storm ashore.
2003-02-19 05:40 | User Profile
Hence my "so far". It's possible that, should the statute be challenged and it makes it to the Supreme Court, it would be ruled unconstitutional. I'm no great optimist, but these are at least possibilities we have that Europe does not.
The growing "worse is better" crowd may see it just the other way, though. :)
2003-02-19 06:33 | User Profile
**During my struggle for power, the Jews primarily received with laughter my prophecies that I would someday assume the leadership of the state and thereby of the entire nation and then, among many other things, achieve a solution of the Jewish problem. I suppose that meanwhile the laughter of Jewry in Germany that resounded then is probably already choking in their throats. [applause]
Today I want to be a prophet again. If international finance Jewry within Europe and abroad should succeed once more in plunging the peoples into a world war, then the consequence will be not the Bolshevization of the world and therewith a victory of Jewry, but on the contrary, the destruction of the Jewish race in Europe. [applause]**
Thank God this bloodthirsty madman is dead, his name and his ideas thoroughly repudiated! Look at how well everything has turned out for the white Westerner, now that we know better than to listen to Evil Monsters like this. So long as we hunt out and eradicate any and every one who believes, or partially believes, or looks as though they might believe, in this racist claptrap....surely our run of national health, cultural vigor and overall extraordinary good fortune can only continue....yes?
I mean, are we the most brilliant, wise, enlightened generation to ever walk the Earth or what?
**Countries such as Germany and Austria have crimes such as denying the Holocaust which have no equivalent in Britain. Under current laws, if a British citizen committed this offence in Germany and returned to the UK, he could not be extradited.
However, this will change when the arrest warrant becomes law next year. Lord Filkin, the Home Office minister, told MPs: "If someone went to Germany and stood up in Cologne market place and shouted the odds, denying the Holocaust, and then came back [to Britain], they would be subject to extradition under the European arrest warrant."**
2003-02-19 06:50 | User Profile
Originally posted by il ragno@Feb 19 2003, 06:33 > Today I want to be a prophet again. If international finance Jewry within Europe and abroad should succeed once more in plunging the peoples into a world war, then the consequence will be not the Bolshevization of the world and therewith a victory of Jewry, but on the contrary, the destruction of the Jewish race in Europe. [applause]**
Thank God this bloodthirsty madman is dead, his name and his ideas thoroughly repudiated! Look at how well everything has turned out for the white Westerner, now that we know better than to listen to Evil Monsters like this. So long as we hunt out and eradicate any and every one who believes, or partially believes, or looks as though they might believe, in this racist claptrap....surely our run of national health, cultural vigor and overall extraordinary good fortune can only continue....yes?
**
No doubt, as MacDonald notes, that a lot of the threats National Socialism pointed to were not purely figments of their imagination. That's why, as you pointed to on the "Sertorius I'm still confised thread" VNN stuff can seem quite prescient.
Ultimately however, if the threats perceived by NS seem legit, their tactics can be provocatory, and result in the exact thing they fear. Just as Hitler's policies help result in the end in the destruction of traditional Europe.
2003-02-19 07:12 | User Profile
**Just as Hitler's policies help result in the end in the destruction of traditional Europe. **
Perhaps. Or perhaps even he underestimated the depth of hatred Jews harbored for Europe, and the lengths they would go to see it destroyed.
I know this much: as the last white man in Europe sinks beneath the waterline of the Atlantic, I fully expect him to shout "I am NOT an anti-Semite!" before his mouth fills with brine.
2003-02-19 17:08 | User Profile
**Ultimately however, if the threats perceived by NS seem legit, their tactics can be provocatory, and result in the exact thing they fear. Just as Hitler's policies help result in the end in the destruction of traditional Europe. **
As if, had he not existed, or resisted, we wouldn't be in the boat we're in now.... a year or two further to go, or a year or two further along?
2003-02-19 21:50 | User Profile
ââ¬Â¦as the last white man in Europe sinks beneath the waterline of the Atlantic, I fully expect him to shout "I am NOT an anti-Semite!" before his mouth fills with brine.
Followed by: . . . glub . . . glub . . . I am NOT . . . glub . . . a racist . . . glub . . . glub . . . . And . . . glub . . . furthermore, . . . I . . . glub . . . am . . . glub . . . most . . . glub . . . certainly . . . glub . . . NOT . . . glub . . . a . . . glub . . . hater! GLUB. . . . GLUB. . . . GLUB . . . !
Hasta la vista.
2003-02-19 22:35 | User Profile
**The proposed EU directive would extend the offences of racism and xenophobia... **
Very insightful.. The OFFENCE of XENOPHOBIA. So now in the enlightened UK no overt act is required for criminality only (to quote Websters) an "undo fear or contempt of strangers or foreigners, especially as reflected in political or cultural views."
This nonsense goes way beyond heaping additional punishment on the perpitrator of a criminal act because he said a politically incorrect word during the comission of a crime, ie. HATE CRIME legislation. Wonder how long it will be before crossing the street to avoid some street thugs will be viewed as a xenophobic act an therefore prosecuted?
HI DE HO it's a weird weird world.
2003-02-19 23:36 | User Profile
I picture the late Graham Chapman in full bobby uniform being told of a David Irving speech somewhere on the continent, sputtering:
"'Ere now! This looks like a job for - The DIVERSITY DIRECTORATE!"
Or was that the "Spanish Inquisition" sketch after all? Cardinal Fang? - bring forth....the comfy chair!!