← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · Zoroaster
Thread ID: 5041 | Posts: 18 | Started: 2003-02-16
2003-02-16 01:24 | User Profile
[url=http://www.counterpunch.org/tripp02142003.html]http://www.counterpunch.org/tripp02142003.html[/url]
CounterPunch
February 14, 2003
He'll Be Remembered as an Asshole Peaceniks Win War! By BEN TRIPP
Hey, gang! We won, if you don't mind Pyrrhic victories. I feel like the guy at Hiroshima who was in a fart-lighting contest just as the A-bomb went off. His last words were "beat that". In a topsy-turvy way that would baffle the Cheshire Cat, we who desire peace will triumph in the event of war. You see, if there's a clear loser in the pending savagery, it's George W. Bush and his administration of barking scrotum monsters.
Right now it doesn't look like they've lost. They'll have their war on Iraq; they will rain bombs down on that godforsaken patch of petroleum-soaked dirt and before you know it instead of the Iraqi population being 50% children, it will be 20% children, because kids can't run as fast as adults. After a few days of hand-to-hand combat through the streets of once-legendary Baghdad it will all be over. But George never read the Arabian Nights- too long and too dirty. So he doesn't know that Baghdad is infested with genies, and we're not talking about the cute blue ones with ADD who talk like Robin Williams. The ones in Baghdad are the djinn, ancient magical spirits that inevitably trick their masters into self-destruction. Voila! Or if you're Mozart, viola. But the effect is the same. George W. Bush has already lost the most important battle of all: the battle for the future.
Setting aside money and power for a moment (sometimes I do), what really matters to a guy like George is that he should someday join the pantheon of Great Americans whose marble busts inhabit the halls of our nation's capitol. He's got all the power and money he could ever misuse in a thousand lifetimes. What he needs now is to be honored by posterity. This is where he loses and we win. One could argue that George is a marble-headed bust already: that's as close as he'll come to being pals with posterity. Posteriority, yes. Posterity, no. He will not be remembered as a brave warrior, a noble patriot, a statesman, a father to his country, a son of God, or even a well-meaning delusional psychotic. He will be remembered as an asshole- and that's exactly how it will read in the history textbooks, although they'll spell it a**hole so as to avoid mantling the kiddies' cheeks with blushes.
In the future, assuming we can still hope for one, George XLIII's reign will be derided, scorned, mocked, and other words to that effect. jeered and disparaged at the very least, maybe even subject to opprobrium. We-- the unlikely alliance acting against his lunatic regime, we Liberals and Conservatives, Libertarians and Progressives and Pentagon generals and disenfranchised veterans, mothers, fathers, mimes, entomologists, podiatrists and transsexuals, all sons and daughters of a government that has turned its back on the principles upon which we were nurtured from cradle to shallow grave-- we will bask in the hallowed light of kind remembrance, not George. A fat lot of good it will do us, but there we are. I didn't say victory would be sweet. Those kids who took a bullet at Kent State? Martin Luther King? The Kennedy brothers? King Kong? They had to die at the hands of The Man to get immortal- it's a mug's game. George W. Bush, how will we loathe thee? Let me count the ways.
Foremost among his epic buggerations, history will record that Bush precipitated modern America's first utterly unprovoked war and rekindled the arms race. Saddam's not even a communist. A war of opportunity, possibly World War III: this is what Bush will be remembered for, not the inevitable victory over some whiskery homunculus in Baghdad. And that's not all.
Another first: George will be remembered for reversing the outcome of both the Civil War and the Civil Rights movement. He will be remembered for mixing Church and State: his invisible cloud superhero and your tax dollars, together at last. He will be remembered for nose-diving the economy from a great height. For record deficits and massive bureaucratic expansion- he'll knock Reagan off the charts. For 50 bankrupt states. He will be remembered for turning his back on treaties. For insulting great nations. For calling the leader of Russia 'Pooty Poot'. For oppressing the weak and unleashing the mighty upon them. For eviscerating the Bill of Rights, and for secret detentions. For ignoring the desperate environmental crisis which grips the globe like a gut-spasming case of Montezuma's Revenge. For slipping the government's unclean fingers back into the womb of every woman in America. For stealing the election of 2000. For rigging the election of 2002, and probably for canceling the election of 2004. Need more? You can't spin the history of the future, which will read something like this:
Bush, G.W. 43d American President (locum tenens)
In private life an unsuccessful oil executive, George W. Bush was installed as president of the United States by the Supreme Court in the year 2000. At first an ineffectual president both at home and abroad, he was invested following the terrorist acts of September 11, 2001 (see sidebar) with enormous political authority. Seizing opportunity in the name of fighting terrorism, Bush advanced an aggressive agenda to secure the world's natural resources for private interests, especially the petroleum industry. After initiating a disastrous program of economic, military and diplomatic actions coupled with severe domestic security measures, Bush's administration collapsed under a wave of scandals. The impact of his presidency on America's international standing is still felt today. According to an obscure satirist of the period, "George W. Bush was the a**hole that ate the world."
See also Stalin, J. and Hitler, A.
Just you wait and see. The genie is out of the bottle, and this is one bottle George won't put down. Us real patriots, the dissidents, have already won- and we'll get our country back someday. What's left of it. Hell, in ten years we'll be able to travel overseas again. History will smile on us. Meanwhile, buckle up your poniards, because we may have won the war, but the battle has only just begun.
Ben Tripp can be reached at: credel@earthlink.net
2003-02-16 03:20 | User Profile
Iraq is a threat to America. Thats why we need a regime change. So WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION are not in the hands of dictators to threaten our FREEDOM. Saddam Hussein has HAD 12 YEARS to disarm his STOCKPILE. He wants to play Nebuchadnezzar.Let's wipe them out, take control of their oil and any other resources, establish the pretense of a democracy which will cost Americans 3 trillion dollars and untold lives, to build and enforce a greater Zion. That is you DESTINY.
2003-02-16 03:49 | User Profile
Originally posted by Exelsis_Deo@Feb 16 2003, 03:20 Iraq is a threat to America. Thats why we need a regime change. So WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION are not in the hands of dictators to threaten our FREEDOM. Saddam Hussein has HAD 12 YEARS to disarm his STOCKPILE. He wants to play Nebuchadnezzar.Let's wipe them out, take control of their oil and any other resources, establish the pretense of a democracy which will cost Americans 3 trillion dollars and untold lives, to build and enforce a greater Zion. That is you DESTINY.
[url=http://forum.originaldissent.com/index.php?act=ST&f=19&t=3921&hl=finkelstein]OU Resident Idiots Think Norman Finkelstein Spoke In Support of Israel[/url]
"And regrettably what goes for the U.S. administration, also goes for Israel," he said. "The real fear, the real possibility is that Israel will now use the cover of the impending war against Iraq to do exactly as it did in 1948, namely to expel the indigenous population."
Are you being sarcastic there?
If you aren't you sound like Senator Inhofe.
2003-02-16 04:43 | User Profile
Originally posted by Exelsis_Deo@Feb 16 2003, 03:20 ** Let's wipe them out, take control of their oil and any other resources, establish the pretense of a democracy which will cost Americans 3 trillion dollars and untold lives, to build and enforce a greater Zion... **
Didn't we do that already? Didn't it not work?
George might not be remembered at all. If our elite continues Sovietizing America at the current rate, we'll have an Official Unperson Act by 2005 at the very latest. Time to re-read that fine Russian classic, The Vanishing Commissar.
Of course the Russians had to use old-time airbrushes. We got better technology.
2003-02-16 18:42 | User Profile
By force or fraud, Machiavelli pointed out, [since we the masses are generally unknowledgeable & our more visceral passions easily roused], is the how of how great political power is historically wielded. The new variable or yet unaswered question is-?-is the disparity between the elites & we the people, as great as it once was?
"W." may be too benighted & generally gay to be quaking in his cramped loafers to wonder if the equation for what he is attempting is 'just right', as it must be approximately, even though, it appears at least to this soc.sec.#, given the response of the rest of our world, and many in this country as well, things ain't what they used to be?
Here's a question...if S.H. of Iraq says, hey listen from one thug to you other thugs, I'm leavin, I'm history...there aren't any weapons of massive destruction (like you all have) and Israel as well, so I can't turn anything else over to you...but I'm leaving, it's a voluntary regime change, it's the best I can do.
Do we still carpet bomb the little rug apes...meaning the little kids of Iraq? And then do we still storm into Baghdad? Because we 'know' someone still has Kuwait's confiscated missles, from the last war?
I think the rest of the world may be saying in so many words there's not enough fraud up anyone's sleeves or force in the world that we all don't end up destroying ourselves as well, and perhaps rightly so? Nor is there enough public relations and spin either, even with a complicit press...to sweep it under the rug with the entire rest of the world is there? No, I'm not sure the disparity between the masses and the elites is as great as it once had been?
Risk v. reward at least has to be one consideration? It's not merely oil, we have the technology for other kinds of engines... thus SUV's by the way, so they can sell every last drop of it...prior... and see-?-the masses will go SUV...they go where they're led...but ALWAYS, still? I shudder to think what might have to happen next, for them to be 'convinced'... I say ol'sports, batten down the hatches!?! I'm a member of the masses (I don't mind) though a tad a-typical since somewhat 'wacky'... so don't take anything I write, all that seriously, without sufficient scrutiny... "Duck! & Cover!" reminds one of the 50's on t.v.
The Romans fell to lead from their dinnerware, are we falling to lead in the air? However one is not really permitted to 'sue' due to terrorism. But who would wish to after their free, mandatory smallpox vaccination?
2003-02-16 19:24 | User Profile
(Anyone not sure what George is alluding to in paragraph 4, the below is a fairly representative article about the WMDs you've heard so much about. In that it was mysteriously "unpublished" in Russia right after being released, it's also typical. Samizdat ain't what it used to be either!)
This May Be a Rumor, God only Knows
A Russian evening newspaper had mentioned the news of a secret revealed by the American Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs to a Russian friend. During his last visit to Russia a couple of days ago, the American was asked by his Russian friend about the reason behind the persistence of the Americans that the WMD do exist in Iraq, while the whole world, and the Russian Intelligence Agencies, are sure that they do not. The American's answer was that:
In 1988, and after the Iraqi-Iranian war had finished, the American Government stored 500 missiles with chemical warheads and 10 launching stands in a Kuwaiti base. After the Iraqis had entered Kuwait, the missiles disappeared and the Iraqis were, most probably, who took them. These chemical weapons are only found in the States and able to kill in five seconds. If precautions are taken, symptoms will show after 15 days and the sick person will eventually die. These symptoms were shown on American and British soldiers after the second Gulf War, which tells that the Iraqis may have used many of those missiles. The inspectors have not found these missiles yet. The Americans cannot declare that because no one will believe them, and because they are afraid that the Iraqis might use them in the coming war. They will cause deadly effects on the American soldiers. The Iraqis will deny the usage of these weapons because only the American army owns them, and the Americans will be the ones who will be accused of using them. In 1994, the Americans asked the Iraqis to give back these missiles in return of easing the embargo. But, the Iraqis demanded a complete embargo lifting and a compensation of 100 billion dollars. Only Iraqis and we know that they possess these missiles.
The newspaper was withdrawn from the Russian markets that evening.
Bush had threatened the Iraqi officers that if they use them they will be sent to courts of war crimes. He even asked them not to obey their President's order to use them if he does. This assures that the American President has his fears.
The Iraqi Vice President had said many times: we don't have Iraqi WMD, many times and he did always repeat the word "Iraqi" to increase the frustration and the bitterness of the Americans.
(No URL; this is making the rounds at several antiwar egroups.)
2003-02-24 04:46 | User Profile
Originally posted by Exelsis_Deo@Feb 15 2003, 21:20 ** Iraq is a threat to America.**
Please explain how a country unable to defend itself is a threat to America.
** Thats why we need a regime change.**
WE need a regime change? The US has no business effecting regime changes anywhere except within the confines of our own borders.
...So WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION are not in the hands of dictators to threaten our FREEDOM.
If that 's a criteria for war, when do you suggest we invade China, North Korea, Pakistan or France or any of a host of other countries who hate us and have weapons of mass destruction?
** Saddam Hussein has HAD 12 YEARS to disarm his STOCKPILE.**
According to the UN inspectors, there is no such stockpile.
I hope this goes through. I'm new here and I'm not quite up on the posting system.
2003-02-24 20:40 | User Profile
I think excelsius_ deo might have tweaked you, opera96. Noone but an Avatar or a geni could seriously put out: "..establish the pretense of a democracy which will cost America 3 trillion dollars and untold lives, to build and enforce a greater Zion. That is your DESTINY" ... as pro-war jive. But its transluscently brilliant stuff taken as reverse negative (negating absurdity by reversal), which is how one assumes it was intended. "Destiny" is an ancient, ancient concept synonymous with "orbit". It is connected in pre-Biblical Babylonian myth* with the God Marduk's claim to his DESTINY vrs Enlil's foremost son Ninurta, fo control of that region we call "Mid East" -- which included the pyramid battles in Egypt (cf. Z. Sitchin, The Wars of Gods and Men). Marduk forged a Sky-Identity for himself by appropriating the number "50", on their star-maps, for his "orbit" = returned sky-god claiming earthly throne.
Ben Tripp is dead-on right about the spirits of djinn buried in that magnificent geological, archtectural, civilizational watershed of the Tigris and Euphrates river valleys. "White Boots Marching In A Yellow Land" -- ? remember Phil Ochs? -- this one is worse, more like: super-destructive Robotic Devices, followed by men in moonsuits (later seen perpetually dusting imaginary flakes off their shirt sleeves) treading on the skulls of pre-Semitic Sumerians. My first post on this board was to say Israel had to be disarmed, and disabused of the historical group fantasy conceit that it was a real nation, independent of US support, in order to prevent them destroying the fruits of those ancient civilizations. They've got plans for US troops to storm Baalbeck! (I've stood there amidst those columns...as, of course, many have).
These "dispensationalists" would take advantage of America's dazed, traumatized state of collective mind (=each one's own, when they try to ponder what has happened objectively) to imprint their version of the "end tifmes" to escalate the threat of going against them, POLITICALLY, into an ACT PUNISHABLE BY ALMIGHTY GOD! Marduk appears to have actually pulled it off, and was not remembered as an asshole, at all, but one whose ruthlessness ushered in harsh regimes. The priesthoods who inherited the ancient knowledge helped cover up the forgery.
It's built into Christianity, as I understand it, that you aren't supposed to name days, hours, years; lands, statues, even buildings; as divine, or "special to God", implying it is possible for men on earth to know that: the content of in their mind, and that of the Creator's, is identical.
(*if it is myth)
2003-02-25 01:00 | User Profile
GOOD TO SEE YOU SPEAKING ABOUT WHAT i SAID. iT'S TRUE. I want you all to THINK, about the world and WHERE it is.. my efforts are anti-war. The disease can be eliminated. They fear this elimination. Pray.
2003-02-25 06:50 | User Profile
So much depends upon how the battle unfolds.
If it's a quick-and-easy victory without many US casualties, then Shrub and his policies will be vindicated in the eyes of the sheeple. If it gets bloody and messy - for example if Iran comes into it on the side of the Kurds or Arab Shiites - and we get bogged down into another no-win guerilla war of attrition, then I foresee several nice possibilities.
There will be increasing tension on the American Left, possibly erupting into an open civil war like Chicago 1968. That's because the Jews at the center of the Coalition will be forced to divert resources away from paying off their post-1968 partners (blacks, browns, gays, affirmative action, women who want free abortions, etc.) and toward the military. This will place tremendous pressure on the coalition. As a result, anti-semitism will grow on the Left, especially among blacks who are anti-Semites anyway but will have no reason to hold their tongues.
American Jews will be driven to embrace "Judeo"-Christians (oxymoron!), especially of the Dispensationalist stripe. This will be terribly distasteful for them, but it's a price they'll be willing to pay. The Jews around Rabbi Lapin's Toward Tradition and Fr. Neuhaus' First Things will come to the forefront. Jews will become increasingly identified with "family values" - as bizarre as that may sound coming from ex-Trotskyites.
In general, Jews will try to co-opt the rising tide of white resentment by addressing some of the more basic injustices toward whites, including affirmative action, open borders, wanton cultural destruction. They'll throw whites just enough of a sop to keep the lid on the growing anger. They'll also look for new scapegoats to deflect anger from themselves - I think the black underclass may be in for a very unpleasant surprise, but it could easily be some other group (illegal aliens? all of the above?).
This will all take a while of course, but the longer the war goes on, the more we'll see these trends manisfested.
We hardcore paleos will have no place to go. I can't imagine where we'll land. It seems inconceivable that we'll make common cause with the anti-Semitic Left, but perhaps I just lack imagination.
Anyway, we are condemned to live in interesting times. So much depends on whether the Iraqis fight, or whether the Iranians will see the writing on the wall, or whether there will be an Islamic revolution in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan (with nukes), maybe even Turkey - or whether there will be some sort of terrorist attack against Israel or America involving WMD. Anyone of those things could set off a chain reaction. Our job is to prepare for the unexpected.
Walter
2003-02-25 15:35 | User Profile
[img]http://www.thebirdman.org/Index/Temp/Temp-BushProtest-BillF.jpg[/img]
2003-02-25 16:21 | User Profile
Good post, Walter,
Barring a big surprise, nukes or biochem counter-attacks, the Iraqi military will fall quickly. The problems will come after the victory. Iranian troops are already in the Kurdish part of Irag, and the Shi"a Muslim majority in the southeastern part of the country would be open to an Iranian takeover. Iran with a population of 66-million can field a much larger military force than Iraq, and if open conflict breaks out with America, it could receive aid from Russia, China, or even Pakistan.
America's grip on Pakistan is quite tenious really. An Iraqi invasion by American forces could easily trigger another militar coup in Pakistan, with its new leaders allied to bin Laden. If that happens, you can bet that Afghanistan will fall back into the Al Qaeda orbit.
The war-pig Sharon, perhaps in coordination with the American Invasion of Iraq, appears ready to launch a serious ethnic cleansing campaign against the Palestinians in the illegally occupied territories. With all this coming down, bin Laden will have tens of millions of Muslims ready to attack America.
The idiot son in the White House has made us all targets.
-Z-
2003-02-25 23:28 | User Profile
That's right.. they want North Korea ( when they can get them ), then Iran, then Syria, then Libya then Saudi Arabia then.. ( enter independent " non-democratic " country in slot )
2003-02-26 02:30 | User Profile
Walter Yannis:
You noted, "We hard-core paleos will have no place to land. I can't imagine where we'll land."
I see your point.
I'm planning to have a soft place to land: I'm planning to land right on the fat-asses of the neo-cons.
Of course, "talk is cheap".
Western people, do however have a habit of using will and imagination
to useful purposes and I hope to tap into that.
My experience is that a guy gets sort of "de-programmed" from public
schools, tv and movies, etc., etc., Then he starts looking for solutions.
A guy gets away from corrupt jews and stops being "psyched out" by
these type of folks and discovers things. Like "I'm smarter than I look!"
2003-02-26 07:12 | User Profile
Originally posted by Zoroaster@Feb 25 2003, 16:21 ** Good post, Walter,
Barring a big surprise, nukes or biochem counter-attacks, the Iraqi military will fall quickly. The problems will come after the victory. Iranian troops are already in the Kurdish part of Irag, and the Shi"a Muslim majority in the southeastern part of the country would be open to an Iranian takeover. Iran with a population of 66-million can field a much larger military force than Iraq, and if open conflict breaks out with America, it could receive aid from Russia, China, or even Pakistan.
America's grip on Pakistan is quite tenious really. An Iraqi invasion by American forces could easily trigger another militar coup in Pakistan, with its new leaders allied to bin Laden. If that happens, you can bet that Afghanistan will fall back into the Al Qaeda orbit.
The war-pig Sharon, perhaps in coordination with the American Invasion of Iraq, appears ready to launch a serious ethnic cleansing campaign against the Palestinians in the illegally occupied territories. With all this coming down, bin Laden will have tens of millions of Muslims ready to attack America.
The idiot son in the White House has made us all targets.
-Z- **
Thanks, and I like your new Avatar.
The thing about all of South Asia is that it's a spider's web of ethnic interests. You just can't predict with any certainty how pulling one thread will effect the whole web.
And therein lies Shrub's criminality. You just don't take risks like that, at least when there are other less potentially-catastrophic options available.
I mean, we're talking nukes here, folks. Freeking Pakistan has nukes, and it's just a question of time before Iran has them. Game over. It's just a question of time before some Islamic terrorist group gets them (or Hebrew terrorist group?).
I was talking to a friend about this, and it occurred to us that we all may be greatly underestimating the costs of living in cities. If some swarthy freak in a turban can take out Chicago in ten seconds, then didn't the builders of Chicago greatly underestimate the potential replacement cost of that investment.
Is one of the great facts of post-911 life that cities are now obsolete and economically unviable?
I think that the answer is obvious.
We should all get out of cities as soon as we can. Again, it's just a question of time.
Walter
2003-02-26 08:42 | User Profile
Walter,
I enjoyed your post as well. You are correct. It is a matter of time before one of those nations gets the bomb, despite the efforts of the Neo-cons to have us invade all those nations. Eventually, the U.S. will leave and those countries will begin their work anew. What people dont realize is that a powder train was lit in May, 1948 the the founding of Israel and because of the things that they have done with our help there will be a day of reckoning. It might take 20 years, or maybe a hundred, but I expect the day will come when the Arabs wipe Israel off the map. If they dont use the bomb, then they will use demographics. We know that the Israelis know this and it is their worse nightmare, that maybe their founders screwed up and put the country in the wrong place.
Instead of the U.S. getting further involved in the mess, we should be doing everything in our power to disengage from the region before we get caught between the combatants.
2003-02-27 02:46 | User Profile
Lemmings love to be taken in by the high and mighty, but as the reign of Bush the Younger unfolds I feel they will have a stronger disposition to weep at their destiny than to laugh at their folly.
Even the low-life Clinton had better sense than to march America off to war under the Zionist banner. America may survive the idiot son in the White House, but the Republican Party will perish.
-Z-
2003-02-27 19:25 | User Profile
Forgive me but isn't this the same man who campaigned against " nation building " ???
Bush: We will build 'inspiring' Iraq after regime is toppled By Rupert Cornwell in Washington 27 February 2003
The United States is ready to make a "sustained commitment" to a post-war Iraq similar to the commitment it made to Germany and Japan after the Second World War, President George Bush declared last night. He also told Israel that as the peace process resumed with the Palestinians, it "must end" settlement activity in the occupied territories.
In a major speech setting out his vision of Iraq and the Middle East after President Saddam had been driven from power, Mr Bush told a conservative think tank in Washington that a new regime in Baghdad could be a "dramatic and inspiring example of freedom" to other nations of the region.
Setting out for the first time his vision of Iraq after President Saddam has been driven from power, Mr Bush told a conservative think tank in Washington that a new regime in Baghdad could be a "dramatic and inspiring example of freedom" to other nations of the region. It might also bring closer the prospect of peace between Israel and the Palestinians.
The task, he warned, would not be easy, and would require "a sustained commitment from many nations, including our own". But that was "no excuse to leave the Iraqi regime's poison labs and torture chambers in operation".
His speech, to the American Enterprise Institute, served a double purpose: an attempt to defuse charges he is no more than a warmonger, and to convince sceptics at home and abroad that the US would follow through in Iraq, in a way that would not simply add to the instability of the region.
As such, it is further confirmation that the US is determined to oust Saddam Hussein. Washington reinforced that message by rejecting a Canadian compromise to bridge differences on the United Nations Security Council, by giving President Saddam an end-of-March deadline to disarm. Such a delay would be just "procrastination", a State Department spokesman said.
The speech also addressed short-term humanitarian measures required after the overthrow of President Saddam, to cope with millions of refugees and provide adequate food for a civilian population subject to severe rationing even before the outbreak of war.
The emergence of a peaceful Iraq, purged of Saddam's tyranny, could rekindle progress towards a "final status" agreement between Israel and Palestine, and what Mr Bush called a "democratic" Palestinian government, which definitively abandoned terror. In return, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon "will be expected to support the creation of a viable Palestinian state", the President said.
But indications are that argument persists among the President's top advisers ÃÂ along now-familiar lines. While hardliners such as Vice-President Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld, the Defence Secretary, talk of "transition" ÃÂ implying America will pull out as soon as a satisfactory new government has been installed ÃÂ the State Department under General Powell has placed the emphasis on "transformation", accepting that America had to be in Iraq for the long haul.
Mr Bush appeared to come down in the latter camp ÃÂ despite intense scepticism that the "new Iraq" can ever be attained, given the country's ethnic and religious fractures. 27 February 2003 14:20