← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · Ed Toner
Thread ID: 4747 | Posts: 15 | Started: 2003-02-02
2003-02-02 15:33 | User Profile
Note the emphasis on ROME. Try to find this story in the 'fee press".
[url=http://www.yourmailinglistprovider.com/pubarchive.php?iapinfo+833]http://www.yourmailinglistprovider.com/pub...php?iapinfo+833[/url]
Israeli professor says ââ¬Åwe could destroy all European capitalsââ¬Â
Jerusalem: 1 February, 2003 (IAP News)
An Israeli professor and military historian hinted that Israel could avenge the holocaust by annihilating millions of Germans and other Europeans.
Speaking during an interview which was published in Jerusalem Friday, Professor Martin Van Crevel said Israel had the capability of hitting most European capitals with nuclear weapons.
ââ¬ÅWe possess several hundred atomic warheads and rockets and can launch them at targets in all directions, perhaps even at Rome. Most European capitals are targets of our air force.ââ¬Â
Creveld, a professor of military history at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, pointed out that ââ¬Åcollective deportationââ¬Â was Israelââ¬â¢s only meaningful strategy towards the Palestinian people.
ââ¬ÅThe Palestinians should all be deported. The people who strive for this (the Israeli government) are waiting only for the right man and the right time. Two years ago, only 7 or 8 per cent of Israelis were of the opinion that this would be the best solution, two months ago it was 33 per cent, and now, according to a Gallup poll, the figure is 44 percent.ââ¬Â
Creveld said he was sure that Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon wanted to deport the Palestinians.
ââ¬ÅI think itââ¬â¢s quite possible that he wants to do that. He wants to escalate the conflict. He knows that nothing else we do will succeed.ââ¬Â
Asked if he was worried about Israel becoming a rouge state if it carried out a genocidal deportation against Palestinians, Creveld quoted former Israeli Defense Minister Moshe Dayan who said ââ¬ÅIsrael must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother.ââ¬Â
Creveld argued that Israel wouldnââ¬â¢t care much about becoming a rouge state.
ââ¬ÅOur armed forces are not the thirtieth strongest in the world, but rather the second or third. We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that this will happen before Israel goes under.ââ¬Â
2003-02-02 15:55 | User Profile
This comports with my theory that the ultimate goal -- the ultimate enemy -- of Zionism is the destruction of Christianity, in general, and Catholicism, in particular.
They first wants the Christians, by proxy, to violently destroy Islam then the Zionists shall insidiously conquer and control Christians, who, as clearly demonstrated by Pat Robertson, et. al., are apparently more stupid than average garden insects.
2003-02-02 17:08 | User Profile
Shittylilestan is a true terrorist state, holding the US hostage.
2003-02-02 17:30 | User Profile
Add Washington DC to the list of targets.
[url=http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/missile/popeye-t.htm]http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/missi...le/popeye-t.htm[/url]
[url=http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/sub/internatl1.html]http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/sub/i...internatl1.html[/url]
2003-02-02 18:40 | User Profile
Text of the original interview:
The well-known Dutch magazine "ELSEVIER" published a discussion with the Israeli-Dutch military historian Martin van Creveld.
Professor Martin van Creveld, internationally well-known and controversial professor of military history at the Hebrew university in Jerusalem, foresees only extreme developments for the forseeable future. The methods by which Israel currently combats the Intifada are doomed to failure. The possibilities of a peace process and the establishment of a Palestinian state are visibly diminishing. This is a discussion with a pessimist, who, as he himself says, is reviled in the own country:
Your specialty is war. Is what's going on here war at all?
Certainly, although the Palestinians have no government, no army, and no nationality. Everything is in chaos. That's why we won't win the war, as well. If we could identify and eliminate every terrorist, we'd win this struggle within forty-eight hours. The Palestinian administration has the same difficulties. Even if Arafat decided to comply with our conditions and surrender tomorrow, it's virtually certain that the Intifada would continue.
Are there similarities on the Israeli side?
If the dispute lasts much longer, the Israeli government will lose control of the people, who will say: 'If government can't protect us, what on earth can they do for us? If the government can't guarantee that we'll be alive tomorrow, what good are they? We'll defend ourselves.'
So Israel is beaten in advance?
On that I'll quote Henry Kissinger: 'In campaigns like this the antiterror forces lose, because they don't win, and the rebels win by not losing.' That certainly applies here. I regard a total Israeli defeat as unavoidable. That will mean the collapse of the Israeli state and society. We'll destroy ourselves.
Is there any point to the recent Israeli military offensive?
This offensive is totally useless; it's only further enraging the Palestinians. Perhaps there will be a short-lived calm, but in the end there will even more suicide attackers.
Is there still hope?
If I were Arafat, I wouldn't stop either. I'd only cease in exchange for a very far-reaching political accord. And it seems as if we have a government that won't make Arafat such an offer. If elections were held today, the Left would be thoroughly beaten.
Some maintain that it is Israel's foreign enemies that keep the country unified.
That's right. I only wish that there were foreign enemies, but that isn't the case. We've fought our external enemies for so many years. Each time there was a war, we took a mighty hammer to our foes, and after being defeated a few times, they left us alone. The problem with the Palestinian revolt is that it doesn't come from without, but rather from within. Therefore we can't avail ourselves of the hammer.
Is the solution, then, to keep the Palestinians outside the borders?
Exactly, and right now there's nearly unanimous agreement on that. We ought to build a wall "so high, that not even a bird can fly over it." The only problem is: where to put the border? Since we can't decide whether the territories conquered in 1967 should be included, for the time being we improvise a little. We're building a series of little walls, which are much more difficult to defend. From a military standpoint this is very stupid. Every supermarket has gradually acquired its own living wall of security guards. Half the Israeli population is guarding the other half-unbelievable. Aside from the fantastic waste, it's almost totally useless.
Does that mean that the Palestinians stay within the borders?
No, it means that they all get deported. The people who strive for this are waiting only for the right man and the right time. Two years ago only 7 or 8 percent of Israelis were of the opinion that this would be the best solution, two months ago it was 33 percent and now, according to a Gallup poll, the figure is 44 percent.
Will that ever be possible?
Sure, since desperate times give rise to desperate measures. Today there's a fifty-fifty split on where the border should run. Two years ago 90 percent wanted the wall built along the old border. That has completely changed now, and if things continue, if the terror doesn't stop, in another two years perhaps 90 percent will want to build the wall along the Jordan. The Palestinians talk of 'summutt', meaning hang tough, cling to the ground and the soil. I have enormous respect for the Palestinians. They fight heroically. But if we in fact want to strike across the Jordan, we would need only a few brigades. If the Syrians or the Egyptians were to try to stop us, we'd wipe them out. Ariel Sharon is leader. He never improvises: he always has a plan.
A plan to deport the Palestinians?
I think it's quite possible that he wants to do that. He wants to escalate the conflict. He knows that nothing else we do will succeed.
Do you think that the world will allow that kind of ethnic cleansing?
That depends on who does it and how quickly it happens. We possess several hundred atomic warheads and rockets and can launch them at targets in all directions, perhaps even at Rome. Most European capitals are targets for our air force.
Wouldn't Israel then become a rogue state?
Let me quote General Moshe Dayan: 'Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother.' I consider it all hopeless at this point. We shall have to try to prevent things from coming to that, if at all possible. Our armed forces, however, are not the thirtieth strongest in the world, but rather the second or third. We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen, before Israel goes under.
This isn't your own position, is it?
Of course not. You asked me what might happen and I've laid it out. The only question is whether it is already too late for the other solution, which I support, and whether Israeli public opinion can still be convinced. I think it's too late. With each passing day the expulsion of the Palestinians grows more probable. The alternative would be the total annihilation and disintegration of Israel. What do you expect from us?
The interview was conducted by Ferry Biedermann in Jerusalem. (in Jan 2003?)
[url=http://www.de.indymedia.org/2003/01/39170.shtml]http://www.de.indymedia.org/2003/01/39170.shtml[/url] (in German)
Me (Leveller): van Creveld has said before that Sharon intends mass expulsion. If he does so it looks like it will be with the US & allies firmly encamped in Iraq, which is very useful from an Israeli point of view for keeping the lid on Iran etc.
2003-02-02 18:50 | User Profile
It's kind of hard to figure out what the guy is thinking. Europe wont oppose us, because we could nuke them? The guy is bugging. If Israel deports the Palestinians--which would be a very good idea--Europe might impose some sanctions on Israel. So might the US, for all I know. But Europe is not going to do anything that would trigger an Israeli nuclear strike. If the Israelis are going to nuke anyone, it's going to be Muslims.
2003-02-02 19:26 | User Profile
This is scary. I thought the whole reason we voted GOP last election was to give President Bush a clear mandate--to preemptively attack dangerous rogue nations like this, that have weapons of mass destruction and an itch to use them!
2003-02-02 21:11 | User Profile
Originally posted by Suzi Soccermom@Feb 2 2003, 15:26 This is scary. I thought the whole reason we voted GOP last election was to give President Bush a clear mandate--to preemptively attack dangerous rogue nations like this, that have weapons of mass destruction and an itch to use them!
How ironic that Bush mission is that you describe, given that Bush recently made it clear he was prepared to use nuclear weapons on Iraq. Bush certainly has an itch to use his high-tech weaponry, which is quite destructive on a massive scale. It seems that America had better bomb Washington, DC before going after Baghdad, since America is the biggest "rogue nation" in the world right now--Bush can't even wait for the UN process to unfold before unleashing his forces.
And you're right, Israel is right next to the U.S. in terms of roguedom, to coin a term.
2003-02-03 02:12 | User Profile
Our Rogue -
[url=http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/03/01/cartoon8.html]http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/03/01/cartoon8.html[/url]
2003-02-03 03:03 | User Profile
This Israeli state threat against Europe wouldn't have been made if it didn't reflect the desires of the controllers of its American host.No statements or threats emitted from the Israeli state,by themselves, should ever be given any credence.Only when the Israeli state becomes a self-sustaining entity should such threats be taken seriously. That day will never arrive.
2003-02-03 03:43 | User Profile
The whole reason Israel is so uppity is because they're not self-sustaining. Their latest threat reads to me as, "hey, if you cut our aid or fail to rescue us when the Pali's outnumber us, we're takin' YOU down too!" Neither of which would be possible if they were self-sustaining.
It's natural to think that an independent nation is more dangerous than one you have financial leverage over. But when that nation is perpetually on the brink of destruction and run by vengeful, paranoid psychotics, it's safer to distance yourself from them altogether than to support them.
2003-02-03 12:13 | User Profile
Sampson Syndrome?
2003-02-03 12:35 | User Profile
Ed.
Van Crevald is a pretty good military writer. I wonder just how close he is to the powers that be?
When I first read the Sampson Option, I was somewhat skeptical based on what I knew about Hersh, though I wouldn` put this past the Israelis now.
It now appears that Hersh knew what he was talking about. I hope this gets posted on "Free Republic."
2003-02-03 12:45 | User Profile
(1) Although Israel does have a pretty strong military, it is by no means the "second or third" strongest in the world. Any strength it can legitimately claim to possess is attributable mostly to US aid. On the whole, Israeli soldiers are a bunch of scrawny, glass-jawed geeks (Josh Saviano comes to mind) who are lucky enough to have very good weapons, training, and funding courtesy of our tax dollars. Being a well-fed and sheltered parasite is really nothing to brag about.
(2) This simple-minded "professor" thinks that nuking Europe would "avenge the Holocaust"? I fail to see how. Just about all Germans or other Europeans who might've been responsible for doing anything to Jews during WWII are dead by now.
(3) If the Zionists ever were to do something as stupid as nuke a European city, they would be quickly annihiliated in a retaliatory strike.
2003-02-03 16:54 | User Profile
**If the Zionists ever were to do something as stupid as nuke a European city, they would be quickly annihiliated in a retaliatory strike. **
Exactly what the Xian Zionuts are waiting for! The world's armies at Judea's throat, Megiddo's Hill, boiling seas, a seven-headed sea serpent, giant foam 'We're #1' novelty hands, "my parents went to Israel to witness the Final Battle Between Good & Evil and all I got was this lousy t-shirt" t-shirts.....
Perhaps these types of statements are uttered with the intention to stoke the Xian Zionuts' rooting interest in this, and keep them focused on the prize they seek in "WW 4".