← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · Mr.Wilson
Thread ID: 4267 | Posts: 27 | Started: 2002-12-31
2002-12-31 20:07 | User Profile
The Bush administration and Congress is filled with those who demand war everywhere yet never fought in one themselves.This legislation, if passed,would see to it that the children of warmongers would be forced to serve alongside working-class Whites as well as various minorities in any upcoming war. [url=http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20021231/ap_on_go_co/rangel_draft_1]http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor.../rangel_draft_1[/url]
2002-12-31 20:23 | User Profile
Originally posted by Mr.Wilson@Dec 31 2002, 20:07 ** The Bush administration and Congress is filled with those who demand war everywhere yet never fought in one themselves.This legislation, if passed,would see to it that the children of warmongers would be forced to serve alongside working-class Whites as well as various minorities in any upcoming war. [url=http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20021231/ap_on_go_co/rangel_draft_1]http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor.../rangel_draft_1[/url] **
Please. Any draft they enact in Washington is going to be chock full of loopholes as surely as night follows day. Short of a Heinleinian system a la Starship Troopers, there ain't no such thing as a good draft.
Best, P
2002-12-31 21:22 | User Profile
He won't be happy until your daughters and sisters are showering with blacks in barracks showers.
2002-12-31 22:28 | User Profile
They're already bunking together.
I was in Korea in 97 on a exercise, and I discovered an Army unit there were all sleeping in the same tent. The female First Sergeant I spoke to said that this way she could keep an eye on all of them.
This same First Sergeant asked me when there'd be women on submarines. My response: "Never, I hope." That didn't make her too happy. :D
2002-12-31 22:44 | User Profile
Everybody should read STARSHIP TROOPERS. As a kid I was scared away by the ever-present 'fascist' tag affixed to all Heinlein books including the ROCKY JONES books he wrote for youngsters. But when I finally did crack a few Robert A's - wow. His citizen/civilian worldview is just brilliant.
Wouldn't kill yez to bone up on yer Cordwainer Smith, too.
2002-12-31 22:55 | User Profile
Chief,
Good for you in your dealings with the idiot First Sergeant.
If we have a draft it should be done in this manner. The sons of all those C.F.R. members and assorted Neo-cons who are so gung-ho about "democracy" and "freedom" should be more than happy for their sons serve in this wonderful cause and should be the first to go. It would set a great example for the rest of the proles as in the past.
I would add those who write for National Review to be the very first to be inducted, starting with that prick Rich Lowrey. Some of them are young enough for combat arms and with the fierceness they show in their columns I have no doubt they would cause the Republican Guard to throw dowm their arms and run like hell!
Seriously, I suspect these clowns would be like the two Roman Senators in the fight scene from Spartacus.
2003-01-01 00:14 | User Profile
Yeah, Heinlein is great ... and Eisenhower's words ring more and more true as things progress.
Unlike Heinlein, Rangel isn't great. I can't help but think of positive ulterior motives. Of course there will be exceptions, exemptions if a draft/mandatory service are instituded. To put it simply; How fast can you say jew? Elite? Rich? I wonder if he's the point man of NWO / ZOG that sees our military as far too white? Despite all the mestizos and blacks in the service, and all the raced based promotions, the special forces units are 98 - 99% white, and combat troops in general are still over 90% white - the blacks ending up in transpo, etc. It's something that all the commercials with black/brown/Asian/female soldiers have not been able to counter - even with lower and lower standards being imposed. Might be far fetched thinking on my part, but Rangel is hardly the most patriotic fella, and I don't think he'd really suggest this as a deterrent to keeping those in power from hitting the war button anytime they feel like it. I think that if it comes down to a civil war in this country, the military will eventually fracture along racial lines - and our fine folks in charge see the same possibility.
2003-01-01 00:38 | User Profile
The children of Bush and Wolfowitz,et.al. are of military age, Rep.Rangel's proposed legislation would see to it that they will fight in the wars that their service-evading fathers agitate for. Their children can also experience diversity firsthand as an added benefit to their enforced military service. The neoconservative proponents of "national greatness" cannot denounce this proposed legislation without exposing themselves, and the government that they shill for,as complete hypocrites.
2003-01-01 05:45 | User Profile
If they restarted the Draft, it might damage the Government, maybe a good Right-Wing anti-Draft Movement is just what We need.
Heinlein's books often pretty silly and often filled with Cultural Marxism. Starship Troopers made some points but was pretty silly. "Short of a Heinleinian system a la Starship Troopers, there ain't no such thing as a good draft."
I think the Swiss had the Right Idea, if we ever do restart a Constitutional Republic, it should have a swiss style Army.
Very True. Despite all the mestizos and blacks in the service, and all the raced based promotions, the special forces units are 98 - 99% white, and combat troops in general are still over 90% white - the blacks ending up in transpo, etc. It's something that all the commercials with black/brown/Asian/female soldiers have not been able to counter - even with lower and lower standards being imposed.
2003-01-01 15:22 | User Profile
In '85 I mustered with the blue crew of the Von Steuben (SSBN 632) to take the bus from Charleston to King's Bay, GA, where the gold crew would turn the boat over to us. My friend Randy, a black man, came to see me off. (He was assigned to the Pulaski). Neither of us had been to sea yet.
I'll never forget the horror in his voice when he got a look at the crew and said, "They're all white."
I said, "No they're not. There's my chief. He's black. And there's three, four, five other black guys." This out of a crew of 150.
I kept count after that, and there weren't ever more than 10 blacks on board. I wonder why. <_<
2003-01-01 18:46 | User Profile
Originally posted by Faust@Jan 1 2003, 05:45 **
**
**If they restarted the Draft, it might damage the Government, maybe a good Right-Wing anti-Draft Movement is just what We need. **
The worse, the better?
Heinlein's books often pretty silly and often filled with Cultural Marxism.
Nietzscheanism. He was an extreme individualist. You're right about his latter books. They were just plain goofy.
I think the Swiss had the Right Idea, if we ever do restart a Constitutional Republic, it should have a swiss style Army.
It's a sine qua non for any small Republic like Switzerland. The changes Heinlein made adapted the Swiss system (which he consciously used as a model) and applied it on a global scale.
Best, P
2003-01-01 19:22 | User Profile
With the high tech weapons that we possess and all the spies in the sky, we don't need more then 100,000 military personal for any occasion. Look at the wast of having hundreds of thousands of men in Germany since world war two that have never seen a fire fight but have retired with fantastice pay, the same goes for the ones in Japan.
The Gulf war proved that a manned army is a useless branch and their is no need for 'dogfaces' any more.
Bottom line here is that our private military industrial complex is dependent on having a large military to sell bullshit useless weapons and for kids in uniform to play war games.
With this next stupid ass war in Iraq, the Prez an all the other assholes who have pushed for it, should be in their f*cking limos leading the charge to Baghdad.
2003-01-02 17:24 | User Profile
Charles Rangel acted bravely in battle in Korea. His reasons for a draft are what he stated and somewhat more. If the children of the rich and powerful are not to be endangered, the weapons and equipment furnished the military will not be the best. Our lead in military weapons such as planes and electronics may be overcome very quickly.
Special Forces were our best troops in Vietnam, but they have drastic limits. Against a more formidable foe than Iraq, their weaknesses will become evident. In Vietnam they crossed into Laos and Cambodia and fought magnificently. Yet the need was not for them, but for two to three divisions to straddle the Ho Chi Minh trail.
Chicanos next to Appalachian Whites were the bravest I met in Vietnam. Blacks did fight, but not in the numbers they want to believe. They actually were underrepresented in the draft-age population.
As long as medical deferments exist, the rich, most especially cowardly Jews, will duck military service. They have no sense of shame or honor.
In May 1969 William F. Buckley called for the continuation of the draft in the war in Vietnam as it was the most "equitable" way to share the danger. His view was supported in letters by Ronald Reagan and Barry Goldwater. Needless to add, not one son of Reagan, Buckley or Goldwater served in Vietnam. Like their fathers they missed the experience of combat.
Dogfaces always will be needed.
2003-01-02 17:33 | User Profile
I don't want the war. I don't want to fight for what America has become (either demographically or theoretically).
Jorge Bush does want the war. He loves the new & improved America. Therefore, should he not be the one to fight? In the old days, the King accompanied the forces to war. If they lost, HE LOST. 'Course, Jorge will never fight. Neither will Dick Cheney (deferred out of Vietnam)
-Jay
2003-01-02 18:21 | User Profile
Though interesting, I doubt much will come of Rangel's action's. Too many folks with an interest to see that it doesn't, I suppose. I also don't think the average American today would stand for it either, as they seem to like war on a visceral level, but only as a form of entertainment ala football games, just broadcast on CNN and not ABC. If the danger ever becomes personally real, the entertainment value lessens considerably!
I myself oppose a forced draft, for much the same reasons as Jay. We're not going to protect our borders in the least, yet we're supposed to make the world safe through expending our blood and treasure. Whatever. Real security begins at home and so far, I haven't seen any evidence the gummint or the population's serious about it at all. That the notable exceptions like the embryonic border militias are being portrayed as part of the problem and not at least an attempt at a solution also speaks volumes.
In regards to Heinlein, I agree his earlier books are a lot better. Really liked S.T. and The Puppet Masters as well as The Moon is a Harsh Mistress but then I thought the guy could write no wrong and picked up, in succession, Friday, Stranger in a Strange Land and Time Enough for Love all of which I found terrible and haven't gone back since. The part where Lazarus becomes Oedipus is particularly gross and made me wonder what R.H. may have been smoking at the time.
P.S. Trooper's road to citizenship wasn't strictly through military service, but national service with the military of course playing a major, though not exclusive role.
2003-01-02 20:10 | User Profile
Don't put it past the Totalitarian States of Amerika to force men into the armed service if needs be. I don't put anything past the filthy traitors leading this sad country to Hell. The way I see it, the Gummint and Ministers of Media can push whatever issue they want on the people and the people will obey like sheep. We, as a people and nation, have taken so much frightfully un-constitutional shiit already that we're past the point of no return.
2003-01-02 20:46 | User Profile
Originally posted by edward gibbon@Jan 2 2003, 17:24 ** Charles Rangel acted bravely in battle in Korea...
Chicanos next to Appalachian Whites were the bravest I met in Vietnam. Blacks did fight, but not in the numbers they want to believe. They actually were underrepresented in the draft-age population.
As long as medical deferments exist, the rich, most especially cowardly Jews, will duck military service. They have no sense of shame or honor.
Dogfaces always will be needed. **
Edward, interesting comments on what you observed in Vietnam. While I have never been in combat, your comments bring to mind what I observed and went through in HS in Los Angeles. When the inevitable brawls against whites started, there were some Mexicans that got along with the whites, and they would stand and fight alongside the whites with the nerve to fight. A fair percentage of the whites were already brainwashed and weakened by the yahoodi's relentless PC / media campaigns and would not fight back. The whites that did fight back tended to be the Irish kids (of course) like yours truly, implants from the South, the Italians (again, of course) and the small number of Eastern Europeans in the student body. The Mexicans on either side would fight because their culture demands that a man stand and fight. The way whites used to be. The Mexicans hadn't been brainwashed, and won't be. Sure, I saw mestizos running for their lives from other mestizos when outnumbered, etc., but they would fight if the numbers were equal. Too many times I would see other white kids back off or run, even with superior size or numbers. I doubt I would have seen the same thing among whites of the 1950's or earlier. As I commented on the Detroit riots of the 40's etc. in another thread, the whites went out looking for the blacks, to stop them from burning the town down, to kick the living sh*t out of them, hang 'em from lamposts if necessary. Hard to picture too many whites doing that now, eh?
I'm not praising the mestizos at all, but too many whites have lost their nerve, and act the same as Ashkenazi jews when it's time to fight. They cower or run. Many people would be amazed at what throwing the first punch can do.
This is all off the beam, however. Even if Rangel acted bravely in battle (not the norm for blacks, from what other Vietnam and Korea vets have told me) I am still of the mind that there is some ulterior motive. Maybe I'm paranoid, maybe not ... Yes, dogfaces will always be needed, just like special forces, elite units will always be needed. And the jews and hypocritical elites that run with them will ALWAYS avoid fighting in the wars they promote.
2003-01-02 23:16 | User Profile
I have not even flown the Fed Flag in the last 10 years not after I saw it fly at Waco and Ruby Ridge over the bodies of Murdered Americans! "I don't want to fight for what America has become (either demographically or theoretically)." I will add: I will not serve in the Amry of the sick Marxist State that now runs what was America!
In regards to Heinlein, his earlier books are a better but still are often silly and filled with Cultural Marxism. His late works are almost loony. Starship Troopers made some points but was pretty silly. The System in Starship Troopers was nothing like the Swiss system, which is based on the Citizen Militia. Made up of all males over 18.
WHAT IS THE MILITIA? [url=http://www.militiaofmontana.com/whomom.htm]http://www.militiaofmontana.com/whomom.htm[/url]
The first ten Amendments in our Constitution are our "Bill of Rights." The Second Amendment in the Bill of Rights states:
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the
security of a free State, the right of the people
to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."
Thomas Jefferson stated once about the Second Amendment:
"The strongest reason for the people to retain the
right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort,
to protect against tyranny in government."
I found this on the Web not long ago.
"Democrats" and GOPers in War:
The Democratic leadership in the House and Senate:
* House Minority Leader Richard Gephardt - Served his country in uniform, 1965-71
* House Minority Whip David Bonior - Served his country in uniform, 1968-72
* Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle - Served his country in uniform, 1969-72
* President of the Senate Albert Gore - Served his country in uniform, 1969-71
The GOP leadership in the House and Senate:
* Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich - avoided the draft, did not serve.
* Majority Leader Dick Armey- avoided the draft, did not serve.
* Majority Whip Tom Delay - avoided the draft, did not serve.
* Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott - avoided the draft, did not serve.
More GOPers who avoided the draft, did not serve:
* Elliott Abrams
* Richard Armey
* Bill Bennett
* Pat Buchanan
* George W. Bush
* Dick Cheney
* Tom DeLay
* Newt Gingrich
* Phil Gramm
* Jack Kemp
* Rush Limbaugh
* P.J. O'Rourke
* Dan Quayle
* Pat Robertson
* Kenneth Starr
* Vin Weber
* George Will
2003-01-02 23:58 | User Profile
Roy Batty
**The whites that did fight back tended to be the Irish kids (of course) like yours truly, implants from the South, the Italians (again, of course) and the small number of Eastern Europeans in the student body. The Mexicans on either side would fight because their culture demands that a man stand and fight. The way whites used to be. The Mexicans hadn't been brainwashed, and won't be. ...I'm not praising the mestizos at all, but too many whites have lost their nerve, and act the same as Ashkenazi jews when it's time to fight. They cower or run. Many people would be amazed at what throwing the first punch can do. **
Being primarily of Irish descent, I have observed over the past 30 years a sea change in Irish-American attitudes. Once they would stand and fight even against the odds. Now only a few will. The most consistently tough in the Philadelphia area are of Italian heritage.
I have long maintained the great problem facing this country has been the loss of courage as a virtue among whites. It certainly is true among the affluent, most notably Jews. I blame the news media for this.
2003-01-03 05:57 | User Profile
While one can speak of how present oriented blacks and mestizos tend to be, and the faults inherent in the Latin ideal of machismo, far, far too many whites spend too much time THINKING about what to do when they are threatened, when all they would have to do in many cases is fight back, take a swing. Much of the problems whites have in physical encounters boils down to this, as I have seen this far too many times. We don't have to emulate less developed people's ideas of manhood, but we also don't have to hide behind intellectualizing when comes time to FIGHT. Stand there and try and reason with any of these "people" and see what you get. There's a lot to be said for just reacting in some instances.
I also think it's possible some of us are reading too much into Heinlein's ideas.
2003-01-03 15:56 | User Profile
**As to the Heinlein question, P remarks that instead of Cultural Marxism, we should be on the lookout for
Nietzscheanism. He was an extreme individualist.
Except when he and his Water Brothers and Water Sisters were 'Grokking' each other at the Water Nest in the Church of All Worlds, where their identities were dissolved and fused through magickal sex rituals of an extraterrestrial provenance.**
Nobody lost their identity. Where did you get that from? At the top you had an elite who shared money and property, but they did so voluntarily, and they got there after a rigorous selection process. It was not a case of "from each according to his abilities, and to each according to his needs" as Marx would have it. It was more based on hermetic religious communities.
The "magickal sex rituals" and whatnot were part of the whole idea of transvaluing morality. You saw the same thing with the Church of the New Revelation. What was once thought bad--gambling, drinking, partying--was exalted as good.
> ** You're right about his latter books. They were just plain goofy.
I have absolutely no idea to what books you might be referring here.**
Time Enough for Love or I Will Fear No Evil.
Ultimately, I agree with Roy. You don't want to read too much into Heinlein. His stories were more entertainment than heavy philosophy.
Best, P
2003-01-03 22:14 | User Profile
Originally posted by wintermute@Jan 3 2003, 21:22 ** > Ultimately, I agree with Roy. You don't want to read too much into Heinlein. His stories were more entertainment than heavy philosophy.
One should always be careful with statements of this sort.
[url=http://www.wegrokit.com/thelema.htm]Whence came the stranger?[/url] Just a friendly little mind grenade, there. Almost nothing is what it seems on the surface.
Be sure to check the link for the full essay, it's quite eye-opening.
Wintermute **
Yeah, I've read this stuff before. The more he got into the occult, the more unreadable his stuff became. At any rate, I don't think Stranger really needs this kind of explication. Heinlein was certainly clear as to what he meant in the book itself.
I think you have a point though, WM. My statement was a bit too broad. Heinlein, though undoubtedly an entertainer, certainly paid a great deal of attention to the philosophical implications of his work. I just wouldn't try to read into them what isn't already there in the text.
Best, P
2003-01-06 03:05 | User Profile
**In May 1969 William F. Buckley called for the continuation of the draft in the war in Vietnam as it was the most "equitable" way to share the danger. His view was supported in letters by Ronald Reagan and Barry Goldwater. Needless to add, not one son of Reagan, Buckley or Goldwater served in Vietnam. Like their fathers they missed the experience of combat.
**
I will not comment on the case of William F. Buckley, Jr. as I am not familiar with the details and because he is still quite able to clarify them himself. Such is not the case with the late Sen. Goldwater or the ailing President Reagan. Senator Goldwater attended the Staunton Military Academy in Staunton, Va. His first year of college at the University of Arizona was cut short when his Father's death necessitated his entering the family business. Senator Goldwater served in the pre-war Arizona National Guard. He was a few weeks shy of 33 when Pearl Harbor was bombed. Nonetheless, he served in World War II by flying air transport from Burma to China over the Himalayas. In the air craft of the day that was almost as hazardous as a combat mission. He continued in the Arizona Air National Guard after the war and retired as a Major General.
Ronald Reagan took ROTC in college and qualified as a horse cavalry officer. When Pearl Harbor was attacked he was a few months shy of 31. He was extremely nearsighted and probably partially deaf as result of firing guns while filming movies. He served as an Army Officer in the unit making training films.
Elsewhere on this thread Dan Quayle and Pat Buchanan are treated as virtual draft dodgers. In point of fact Dan Quayle held the same MOS in the National Guard as Al Gore held in Army. Pat Buchanan had taken ROTC in college but was found unfit for active duty due to a football injury. Pat's time for active duty was several years before large scale participation of American troops in Vietnam. You have to know all the circumstances in order to guage whether or not a man honorably dealt with service in the military.
2003-01-06 03:37 | User Profile
Fliegende Hollander,
**Great Post. I agree a lot of false draft dodger charges are put out. **
Ronald Reagan did what he was best at and was likely unfit for active duty anyway.
Dan Quayle served National Guard. He may not have gone but lot Guardmen went to Vietnam a good number of times. Some of the Air Guardmens did Weekend runs.
Pat Buchanan was found unfit for active duty.
So was Rush bad feet, too fat.
I never seen anyone attack Sen. Goldwater on this subject.
I do think people should Al Gore attacked for matter, Americans died in every part of Vietnam, and he went into the Jungle, I know he was not a combat Soldiers that was far from safe work.
Even in the case of Slick Willie Clinton after he droped of ROTC, he put his name in the next Draft Lottery and got high number and was not drafted.
2003-01-06 18:48 | User Profile
Fliegende Hollander
Many years ago I lived in Erie, Pa where I once had a conversation with Phil Cochrane, who served as the model for Flip Corkin in the old Steve Canyon comic strip. He was the commanding officer of the air force unit flying supplies over the hump into China. He mentioned this flying to be somewhat dangerous, but nowhere near combat. Obviously skilled piloting and good maintenance were required.
From my book> For young persons and for those who choose to forget the National Guard at that time was composed of many privileged white youths who joined to avoid military service in Vietnam. In all of the years of that war only 69 members of the National Guard died in Vietnam under combat conditions. This came to slightly more than 0.1 percent of the dead, slightly more than one in one thousand of the American dead in Vietnam. Over two million Americans served in Vietnam and less than 16,000, less than 1 percent, were from the National Guard or the Reserve. In 1970 the National Guard was claiming that 90 percent of their enlistments were draft motivated. The waiting list to join these units evaporated at the end of the war. ** The students who did demonstrate did so to show their contemporaries that they were ethically righteous. Exceptions were very few.
This was the war to most Americans. Less than ten percent of those eligible served in Vietnam. The Dan Quayles and the Bill Clintons were the rule, not the exception. **
Bill Buckley whose son cowered on the campus of Yale did not think Dan Quayle worthy of condemnation. Neither did the John Birch Sociey> Lying and avoiding military service by Dan Quayle only brought the comment by these right-wingers that Mr. Quayle's joining the National Guard was of little consequence and was turned into a major controversy by the national media. Coming from a group of men who advocated fierce resistance to communism this absolution struck as especially odd. These same people thought of Rambo as a pro-American, anti-communist, pro-military box office hit and deserving of praise.
One Medal of Honor winner did not think Mr. Quayle's behavior praiseworthy> **The Medal of Honor society was further humiliated when Vice President Dan Quayle was selected to receive an award from the society. Richard McCool, aged 69 years of Bainbridge Island, Washington resigned from the society because he objected to its honoring Mr. Quayle, who took great pains not to serve overseas during his war. Mr. Quayle did serve as a public information specialist in the Indiana National Guard. That such a society designed to recognize the supreme effort of courage by its citizen soldiers could be manipulated by politicians who ran it into recognizing a shirking liar such as Quayle spoke much of the essential character of American politics. That in Britain a group of Victoria Cross winners would allow their society be prostituted into bestowing recognition on a known liar and coward would be virtually unthinkable. **
Quayle was proud his mommy and daddy used their influence to get him in the National Guard. If I remember correctly, he was in a slot so designed that if the entire Indiana Nation Guard were activated, he would not be sent overseas.
2003-01-14 19:04 | User Profile
The Pentagon disputes the assertions of Rep.Rangel: "Defense disputes racial imparity",by Bill Gertz [url=http://www.washtimes.com/national/20030114-27407742.htm]http://www.washtimes.com/national/20030114...14-27407742.htm[/url]
2003-01-15 01:29 | User Profile
I have a proposal to make also. Let's begin to draft a peaceful army of 5 million to march on Washington and take over this tyrannical, corrupt, and un-Constitutional Government, throw the scumbag hypocrites in jail, and GET IT DONE WITH ALREADY !!!!!