← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · Okiereddust
Thread ID: 3660 | Posts: 49 | Started: 2002-11-23
2002-11-23 20:17 | User Profile
PALEOCONSERVATIVES often refer to "the limits of permissible dissent" in describing the struggle to hold on to their views in the realms of the media and academia against the censure of both the left and the "mainstream" right. Now, this struggle has been extended into the realm of the internet, the supposed last frontier of unregulated speech and capitalism. Indeed, we may be witnesses, as Frederick Jackson Turner would say, to the closing of this frontier, not just because of the collapse of the dotcom economy but because of the new limits imposed on speech and content, which will only become more pronounced as the War on Terrorism progresses.
In 1996, Fresno, California, resident and internet surfer Jim Robinson had a problem: His posts on Prodigy message boards and chat rooms, particularly his strong criticisms of President Bill Clinton, were being censored by Prodigy's administrators. So he started his own website Free Republic (www. freerepublic.com).
Free Republic was more than just an ordinary message board in the early settlement of the internet. Surfers could post whole articles from publications and make them topics of discussion and debate. And it was more than just another chat room. Free Republic's likeminded members could be connected from across the country to organize activist projects and events. In 1998, when many Republicans wanted to ignore Kenneth Starr's report on the Clinton scandals rather than deal with its charges, Free Republic members (or "Freepers," as they call themselves) lit up the congressional phones and organized demonstrations that influenced Republicans in the House to vote for articles of impeachment. And it was the Freepers, not the GOP, who organized the demonstrations of conservatives down in Florida during the 2000 presidential vote recount.
Over 60,000 people have been registered members of Free Republic, the largest conservative oriented website in the world. Members are a diverse lot: independents, Republicans, libertarians, (large "L" and small), neocons, paleocons, Buchanan Brigaders, Keyes supporters and everything in between. Even such prominent pundits as Justin Raimondo. Ann Coulter Barbara Olson and Lucianne Goldberg (known by her Freeper handle, "Trixie,") have made frequent posts.
As in any frontier boomtown, however, with rapid growth came predictable problems. Some of the articles posted on the site came from racist or antisemitic websites. Conspiracy theorists also made use of Free Republic. Leftists began to infiltrate the site, posting articles or posing as conservatives to act as agents provocateurs. "Vanity posts" became more frequent, and flame wars among members became more intense, as the site split into factions during the 2000 presidential election. Overall, civility degenerated. Some members became concerned that Free Republic had become a virtual hangout for kooks. Matters came to a head in early 2000 when Robinson (or "JimRob") speculated on George W. Bush's connection to the airport in Mena, Arkansas, where drug and gun running allegedly took place during the 1980's. Matt Drudge then dropped Free Republic's link from the Drudge Report, and Goldberg took 2,000 members with her to start her own Lucianne.com.
Robinson decided to clean up his website and, like any good sheriff, deputized a posse of site moderators to remove offensive posts, threads, and articles and to ban those who posted them. But they did not stop there. Soon, they had banned the posting of any articles from certain websites that they deemed taboo, such as VDare.com ("too divisive"), LewRockwell.com, DixieNet.org (the League of the South's website), and the Free State Project's website (www.FreeStateProject.org).
It would be easy to conclude that Robinson and his monitors simply went overboard in an effort to clean up the excesses of Free Republic, but there is more to it than that.
Because of its significant growth, Free Republic costs $240,000 annually to maintain. As a nonprofit, Free Republic depends on donors, large and small, for its survival. No doubt the embarrassment of being dropped from the Drudge Report and Goldberg's public break with the site concerned Robinson, and he feared that funds might dry up if his site were perceived to be on the fringe. In addition, the Washington Post and the Los Angeles Times sued Free Republic for copyright infringement. (The case was settled out of court.) It was only natural for Robinson and his site administrators to want to look good for prospective donors.
With so many posters banned, the diversity of thought on Free Republic has been reduced to the musings of neoconservatives, Zionists, Republicans who act as if Free Republic were an annex of GOP headquarters, those who consider George W. Bush a demigod and offer prayers to him, and other sycophants and cheerleaders. Robinson has made it dear where he stands: "I see that the only Party capable of blocking and defeating the evil Democrats is the Republican Party. I see that many races are so close that as little as a one percent siphon of conservative votes to a third party could be the difference between success and failure. I see allowing a Democrat to remain in power when it could have been prevented as a triumph of evil."
Many banned Freepers have turned to such sites as Liberty Post (www.libertypost.org) and Liberty Forum (www.libertyforum.org), where members can post articles from anywhere and comment without interference from the thought police or fear of Siberian banishment. But Free Republic will still remain the 800 pound gorilla of conservative websites for some time, just as National Review has been for conservative magazines, despite being watered down. Frontiers, whether on land or in cyberspace, cannot survive when developers start plotting out the fencerows.
Sean Scallon
[url=http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org]Chronicles Magazine (this article only in print)[/url]
Nothing new to any of us here, but its good to know the paleoconservative establishment now sees things exactly the same way we do, and explicitely supports us, even if they didn't mention us by name. (Maybe next time B) )
2002-11-23 20:24 | User Profile
** where members can post articles from anywhere and comment without interference from the thought police or fear of Siberian banishment. **
I don't think that Liberty Post, essentially being FR lite, qualifies.
2002-11-23 20:25 | User Profile
Okiereddust,
Would you post this on LF, too?
2002-11-23 20:26 | User Profile
Originally posted by madrussian@Nov 23 2002, 20:24 **> ** where members can post articles from anywhere and comment without interference from the thought police or fear of Siberian banishment. **
I don't think that Liberty Post, essentially being FR lite, qualifies.**
Doesn't LibertyPost keep their ME articles in Siberia? With posting limitations?
2002-11-23 20:45 | User Profile
Originally posted by texoma@Nov 23 2002, 20:26 > Originally posted by madrussian@Nov 23 2002, 20:24 > ** where members can post articles from anywhere and comment without interference from the thought police or fear of Siberian banishment. **
I don't think that Liberty Post, essentially being FR lite, qualifies.**
Doesn't LibertyPost keep their ME articles in Siberia? With posting limitations?**
I'm not a big poster there, and haven't observed what they're doing real closely. The rules per se are not that bad though. The ME section has a posting limit of 10 posts per day, but it is carried and posted on the sidebar.
It's not a big deal yet because of its relatively small size compared with Free Republic, but I'm sure the most troublesome posters like pointystick and the jauntybeasting type posters, are if not banned, harassed and restricted. Overall of course it is still though, it strikes me, freeer than Free Republic was even 3 or 4 years ago when I first got there, although the future direction, unlike Liberty Forum, appears to hold out the possibility of moving more toward Free Republic's methodology. It certainly is nowher there now though - you can post VDARE, Sam Francis, or Norm Chomsky articles pretty much to your hearts content, although small sites in general are less picky.
2002-11-23 21:25 | User Profile
Originally posted by texoma@Nov 23 2002, 20:25 **Okiereddust,
Would you post this on LF, too?**
[url=http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news_lf&Number=330496&t=-1]Liberty Forum Post[/url]
See you already found it!
2002-11-23 21:43 | User Profile
Hmmm. So Chronicles doesn't mention us by name. You think they're a bit afraid to acknowledge their own grassroots? Maybe we're the paleo red-headed step child.
Regarding Libertypost, didn't they recently have some kind of dustup over the site owner's disingenuousness about where they were receiving funds? Some kind of tax protest group or something? What was that all about?
2002-11-23 21:49 | User Profile
Originally posted by texoma@Nov 23 2002, 20:25 **Okiereddust,
Would you post this on LF, too?**
There BTW apparently was a very lively discussion over at LP on this Chronicles column. Blow me away - I didn't even realize LP people could read a magazine with so few pictures. Anyway here it is - 636 replies!
[url=http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readarticle.cgi?101+6114+636+1#C636]LP makes the BIG-TIME!! (Chronicles mentions us in column on TOS)[/url]
2002-11-23 22:17 | User Profile
Saw it. It's more of a chat thread, though, isn't it? Advice to the lovelorn, flirting and whatnot.
I think about two people provided half the posts.
Thanks for posting it on LF.
2002-11-23 22:23 | User Profile
Hmmm. So Chronicles doesn't mention us by name. You think they're a bit afraid to acknowledge their own grassroots? Maybe we're the paleo red-headed step child.
TD, I thought the same thing when I came across that article in the magazine the other day. I would have posted the article if I'd known it was online. Anyway, I figured that no one wants to acknowledge OD because it's too honest here, too much truth, too many sacred cows being put on the hot seat. Sites like Liberty Forum still have enough posters who advertise themselves as "Martin Luther King, Jr. Libertarians" to qualify for inclusion among "respectable" paleocons. Needless to say, I was quite disappointed in Chronicles, but not that surprised. No matter, I'll just add their lily-livered editors to my $h!t list. :D
2002-11-23 22:56 | User Profile
Originally posted by PaleoconAvatar@Nov 23 2002, 22:23 > Hmmm. So Chronicles doesn't mention us by name. You think they're a bit afraid to acknowledge their own grassroots? Maybe we're the paleo red-headed step child.**
TD, I thought the same thing when I came across that article in the magazine the other day. I would have posted the article if I'd known it was online.**
It wasn't on-line. Check out
[url=http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readarticle.cgi?112+6275#C6]New Chronicles Discusses Free Republic and Liberty Post![/url]
At least I difdn't whine now like logician2u :D
Anyway, I figured that no one wants to acknowledge OD because it's too honest here, too much truth, too many sacred cows being put on the hot seat. Sites like Liberty Forum still have enough posters who advertise themselves as "Martin Luther King, Jr. Libertarians" to qualify for inclusion among "respectable" paleocons. Needless to say, I was quite disappointed in Chronicles, but not that surprised. No matter, I'll just add their lily-livered editors to my $h!t list. :D
Well Chronicles has enough trouble having the SPLC/ADL characterize it as White Nationalist and even occasionally anti-semitic, as it was during the 1986 episode, without being associated with a site which practices the degree of free speech and has a membership composition like we do. I'm not going to whine about it, the list realy wasn't meant to be comprehensive, and if someone hangs out around Liberty Forum very long they'll hear about us, that's for sure.
2002-11-23 23:07 | User Profile
Well Chronicles has enough trouble having the SPLC/ADL characterize it as White Nationalist and even occasionally anti-semitic, as it was during the 1986 episode, without being associated with a site which practices the degree of free speech and has a membership composition like we do.
Of course, the ADL/SPLC tends to pad the numbers of those they put on their list of "hate groups"--anyone to the right of Al Gore is considered a "White Nationalist" and "anti-semitic." :lol:
2002-11-24 00:09 | User Profile
Originally posted by PaleoconAvatar@Nov 23 2002, 23:07 Of course, the ADL/SPLC tends to pad the numbers of those they put on their list of "hate groups"--anyone to the right of Al Gore is considered a "White Nationalist" and "anti-semitic." :lol:
And anyone to the right of Chairman Mao leans that way if the aren't watchedl :lol:
2002-11-24 11:28 | User Profile
[url=http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/backroom/793011/posts?q=1&&page=1]http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/backroom...sts?q=1&&page=1[/url]
nopardons reminds me of that pet-like creature Jabba the Hut kept around in The Empire Strikes Back with his "I think you're a disruptor, I'll sick RimJob on you" BS
what an a**kisser
He's worse than the tinfoil hats he claims disrupt FR....some guy merely posts a Chronicles article about FR and he devolves it into a 300+ post thread about conspiracies and ulterior motives of posters.
Wonder what they'll say when a major media organ of the party elites like The Wall Street Journal or The Weekly Standard blasts them for not towing the party line and stirring up trouble. Immigration, amnesty, plant closings, Powell's comments about importing Muslims and the White House attacking the Christian Fundies seems to have alot of FReaker panties in a knot to the point where the party elite's apologists are fighting to keep a lid on the malcontents. Sooner or later it's gonna boil over.
The sheep are gloating over the midterm elections, but I see nothing but internal strife inside the GOP for the next few years. What happened in California is its destiny. Chuck Harder said on his show a month or so ago that trade--ie globalization and the loss of US productive capacity--would be the #1 issue in 2004. Economic nationalism isn't quite on the front burner like it was in Perot's time, but I think between immigration and declining real wages it's about to come back with a vengeance, and woe to the GOP.
2002-11-24 13:49 | User Profile
Because of its significant growth, Free Republic costs $240,000 annually to maintain. As a nonprofit, Free Republic depends on donors, large and small, for its survival. No doubt the embarrassment of being dropped from the Drudge Report and Goldberg's public break with the site concerned Robinson, and he feared that funds might dry up if his site were perceived to be on the fringe......It was only natural for Robinson and his site administrators to want to look good for prospective donors.
Granted I'm a black-hearted skeptic; I always see dollar signs behind high-sounding rhetoric about 'defending freedom' against 'the triumph of evil', but even I leaned forward in semi-disbrelief at that quarter-mill parts & labor tag.
Jeez, I have got to start a website. And here I've been, costing myself a fortune working!
2002-11-24 16:53 | User Profile
Originally posted by il ragno@Nov 24 2002, 06:49 **Granted I'm a black-hearted skeptic; I always see dollar signs behind high-sounding rhetoric about 'defending freedom' against 'the triumph of evil', but even I leaned forward in semi-disbrelief at that quarter-mill parts & labor tag.
Jeez, I have got to start a website. And here I've been, costing myself a fortune working!**
Freakers must be amazingly gullible and stupid to ship that much money for nothing. That's the kind of people due to whom the telemarketers and panhandlers exist :lol:
2002-11-25 03:48 | User Profile
Originally posted by Centinel@Nov 24 2002, 11:28 **[url=http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/backroom/793011/posts?q=1&&page=1]http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/backroom...sts?q=1&&page=1[/url]
nopardons reminds me of that pet-like creature Jabba the Hut kept around in The Empire Strikes Back with his "I think you're a disruptor, I'll sick RimJob on you" BS
what an a**kisser
He's worse than the tinfoil hats he claims disrupt FR....some guy merely posts a Chronicles article about FR and he devolves it into a 300+ post thread about conspiracies and ulterior motives of posters.**
Thanks for the link. Ignore types like nopardons - I personally suspect JR recruits them himself, to do his dirty work. It is discouraging though to see Roscoe going the JR suckup routine. I considered him one of the best paleo's. I think he must have done it to survive there.
Anyway, this little piece expresses JRism at its best. (#35)
**Well, let's see. We kicked out the anti-Semites, the racists, the bigots, the tin-foil hat conspiracy nuts, the America did it crowd, the cowardly anti-war America haters, the America got what she deserves crowd, the DU disruptors, the perverts, the religion bashers, the Bush is a Nazi crowd, the Bush did it crowd, the it's all about oil crowd, the I'd rather support Clintonites crowd, the foul mouthed bashers, the smash mouth bashers, the just can't seem to get along with anyone crowd, the I hate everyone crowd, the naysayers, the doom and gloom sky is falling crowd, the woe is me we're all doomed crowd, etc, etc, etc.
We supported the GOP and we kicked Democrat butt. We helped establish Republican control of both houses of Congress along side a Republican President for one of the very few times in modern history. We helped set the stage to begin replacing liberal activist judges with conservative judges. We helped block the liberal democrats who have controlled government for most of the last seventy years and we've set them back thirty years and maybe longer. And that's not to mention establishing Republican control in many state and local governments, some for the first time in history.
Now, I don't know if we went far enough in all cases, but I feel we did a pretty damned good job, and I believe we will continue doing a pretty damned good job.
Congratulations to all who made this historical event possible!
And for those of you who feel the people who got kicked off FR can do a better job, well, you are always free to go to the libertypost or libertyforum websites mentioned above and join the America hating rabble.
Thank you all very much and long live our Free Republic!
God bless America!**
Doggone it though TD - how come he didn't mention OD either? :D
2002-11-25 05:59 | User Profile
Roscoe, a paleo???
Roscoe is a communitarian, an anti-libertarian fanatic, and on a thread on a few months ago was calling another poster David Duke when that poster suggested that immigration preferences be given to Europeans.
He is part of a cabal at FR that obsesses over libertarians, along with Cultural Jihad, Dane, VA Avogado, and texasforever. To a man, they're neo-cons, the book-burning being a "bonus" of sorts.
Course, I am bit grumpy about Fr these days, considered I got the buh-bye treatment a few weeks ago.
2002-11-25 06:12 | User Profile
PA,
Did I read you right that you got banned from FR? Good Lord, I've seen your posts there, considering that rational thought tends to shine brightly when surrounded by the usual mess at that place, and I never saw anything they could justify banning you for. Is the post still available to be seen? I'd be interested in taking a look at how low they set the bar now for bannings.
Of course, it'll be interesting to continue watching the results of what's left behind. Think of it--each time they ban someone, they tend to ban the people with the brains and the good arguments and the good instincts about defending Western Civilization. Think about the dregs that are left behind there who don't get banned, the Bushbots and Zionuts and the like--they're all stuck with each other. With the last few good posters being removed, their numbers are concentrating. Even funnier, I notice the ones left behind still all post nothing but wild charges at each other about being "disruptors." Every other post, the neocons are accusing each other of being DU plants or something. And they make fun of paleos for supposed paranoia! What a circus. I can only imagine the quality of the median posters and posts there around the year 2005.
2002-11-25 06:13 | User Profile
Originally posted by Phillip Augustus@Nov 24 2002, 22:59 Course, I am bit grumpy about Fr these days, considered I got the buh-bye treatment a few weeks ago.
The best thing that can happen to a man. I guess it's that weird emotional attachment to a chat room full of anonymous internet personalities that made people send a quarter a mil a year to the Fresno Mafia. ;)
2002-11-25 06:28 | User Profile
Originally posted by Phillip Augustus@Nov 25 2002, 05:59 **Roscoe, a paleo???
Roscoe is a communitarian, an anti-libertarian fanatic, and on a thread on a few months ago was calling another poster David Duke when that poster suggested that immigration preferences be given to Europeans.
He is part of a cabal at FR that obsesses over libertarians, along with Cultural Jihad, Dane, VA Avogado, and texasforever. To a man, they're neo-cons, the book-burning being a "bonus" of sorts.**
I rather admired Roscoe's anti-libertarian fanaticism when I was there. It seemed to be from a paleoperspective. He pointed out the CA LP opposition to proposition 187, their duplicity on states rights, and even got a good thread on the NAMBLA poster at an old LP convention, although his famous claim on what the guy suposedly said on the age of consent (if it coos it means yes, if it cries it means no) had to be retracted.
Seemed like a smart fellow. Too bad he really just turned out to be an eccentric neocon.
Course, I am bit grumpy about Fr these days, considered I got the buh-bye treatment a few weeks ago.
As madrussian notes, count your blessings. I'm convinced there's a group pathology that settles over Freepers who stay their too long. I notice the change when I go back and see some of my old friends (Roscoe was one) who are still there and how they've changed.
2002-11-25 06:52 | User Profile
Originally posted by PaleoconAvatar@Nov 25 2002, 06:12 Even funnier, I notice the ones left behind still all post nothing but wild charges at each other about being "disruptors." Every other post, the neocons are accusing each other of being DU plants or something. And they make fun of paleos for supposed paranoia! What a circus. I can only imagine the quality of the median posters and posts there around the year 2005.
While we're on the subject of Free Republic, I was wondering what you thought about having a special section devoted to FR idiocy. Some of us were thinking of calling it "Free Republic Watch" or something like that, where we collect the most shining examples of FR stupidity. There were a few disenting voices that thought though that if you started to pile all the manure at FR in one place you be sinking up to your nose in it, but I still think its a shame that so much of the constant striving for the crappiest post over there goes unappreciated except by other Freepers, who all devour that stuff like cavier. (pardon the pungent metaphor, but I think its appropriate).
I don't want just to pick on FR of course. Certain posters elsewhere, like the legendary Arator at LF and LF, can outdo the best Freeper. You just need one place to put the best little "gems", maybe from all over.
2002-11-25 07:11 | User Profile
Think about the dregs that are left behind there who don't get banned, the Bushbots and Zionuts and the like--they're all stuck with each other. With the last few good posters being removed, their numbers are concentrating.
Not to mention that NewsMax shut its forums down, or is bringing them back as pay-only. That should concentrate and polarize *con forums on the Web even more.
Crossovers notwithstanding, it seems like every ideology has its own niche forum...FR for the neos, OD for the paleos, and LP/LF for the Cato-type Libertarians.....and Usenet for those who like total anarchy.
2002-11-25 07:39 | User Profile
Originally posted by Okiereddust@Nov 25 2002, 02:52 > Originally posted by PaleoconAvatar@Nov 25 2002, 06:12 Even funnier, I notice the ones left behind still all post nothing but wild charges at each other about being "disruptors." Every other post, the neocons are accusing each other of being DU plants or something. And they make fun of paleos for supposed paranoia! What a circus. I can only imagine the quality of the median posters and posts there around the year 2005.**
While we're on the subject of Free Republic, I was wondering what you thought about having a special section devoted to FR idiocy. Some of us were thinking of calling it "Free Republic Watch" or something like that, where we collect the most shining examples of FR stupidity. There were a few disenting voices that thought though that if you started to pile all the manure at FR in one place you be sinking up to your nose in it, but I still think its a shame that so much of the constant striving for the crappiest post over there goes unappreciated except by other Freepers, who all devour that stuff like cavier. (pardon the pungent metaphor, but I think its appropriate).
I don't want just to pick on FR of course. Certain posters elsewhere, like the legendary Arator at LF and LF, can outdo the best Freeper. You just need one place to put the best little "gems", maybe from all over.**
A special section at the OD forum on FR? Is that the question? If so, it was my understanding that TD's vision for OD was aimed at preventing OD from becoming overly focused on anti-FR activity; I assume the rationale behind that in the forum guidelines is because it would deflect attention away from more serious issues and possibly attract malcontent refugees from FR who have an axe to grind without sharing a positive paleo ideological vision. [Having an axe to grind is fine as long as one also has the vision, you see ;)]
However, it is my impression that OD now has the longevity and stability of membership behind it that it might be able to handle a more closely-sustained and organized critique of "conservative impostor" websites out there without itself being pulled into the morass. So far, I've seen a few posts here and there every now and then at OD calling attention to the most egregious FR posts, which is always good for a laugh--or launching a scathing critique of those people's otherworldly assumptions. The OD forum seems to handle FR topics with grace and maturity, unlike the LP site, which seems to discuss nothing but FR to the tune of 600-plus posts while other topics tend to only get 2 or 3 posts, if that. So I'd have no objection to such a section here, and would likely be an occasional contributor since I often scan the headlines at FR to take the pulse of the "captive conservatives" over there.
2002-11-25 16:46 | User Profile
Originally posted by Okiereddust@Nov 25 2002, 03:48 **Anyway, this little piece expresses JRism at its best. (#35)
**Well, let's see. We kicked out the anti-Semites, the racists, the bigots, the tin-foil hat conspiracy nuts, the America did it crowd, the cowardly anti-war America haters, the America got what she deserves crowd, the DU disruptors, the perverts, the religion bashers, the Bush is a Nazi crowd, the Bush did it crowd, the it's all about oil crowd, the I'd rather support Clintonites crowd, the foul mouthed bashers, the smash mouth bashers, the just can't seem to get along with anyone crowd, the I hate everyone crowd, the naysayers, the doom and gloom sky is falling crowd, the woe is me we're all doomed crowd, etc, etc, etc. **
**
What's fascinating of course is these were all the people who basically kept FR going to begin with, and that's what JR was too, before he went mainstream.
I can just hear him gloat about this to his new country club republican friends, or his ritzy D.C. dinners with his token RNC attendees.
The basic essense of the man, and his and the whole RNC's entire raison de etre makes me puke.
2002-11-25 19:20 | User Profile
I enjoy the general hooting at FR - and of course the excerpted threads are always good for a laff - but an "FR forum" would turn OD into The Judean People's Front battling The People's Front of Judea, and diminish the independence & importance of this forum. I post here; I've never posted there.
Let JimRob start an OD Forum instead.
2002-11-26 00:34 | User Profile
Originally posted by il ragno@Nov 25 2002, 19:20 **an "FR forum" would turn OD into The Judean People's Front battling The People's Front of Judea ...........Let JimRob start an OD Forum instead. **
OD as The People's Front of Judea? With all due respect :lol: If Jimrob by some unimaginable stretch did start an "OD forum" those sort of remarks would definitely feature prominently.
2002-11-26 00:53 | User Profile
Originally posted by il ragno@Nov 25 2002, 13:20 Let JimRob start an OD Forum instead.
Ha! FR's greatest fear is a paleo-planet.
:)
2002-11-26 08:12 | User Profile
Michael Palin: What ever became of The Popular Front?
John Cleese: There he is.
2002-11-26 11:18 | User Profile
Originally posted by Texas Dissident@Nov 26 2002, 00:53 > Originally posted by il ragno@Nov 25 2002, 13:20 Let JimRob start an OD Forum instead.**
Ha! FR's greatest fear is a paleo-planet.
:)**
I'm just so at home here.
Finally.
Man, I just feel a big warm fuzzy for all you guys!
Walter
2002-11-26 17:06 | User Profile
Originally posted by Okiereddust@Nov 25 2002, 17:34 > Originally posted by il ragno@Nov 25 2002, 19:20 an "FR forum" would turn OD into The Judean People's Front battling The People's Front of Judea ...........Let JimRob start an OD Forum instead. **
OD as The People's Front of Judea? With all due respect :lol: If Jimrob by some unimaginable stretch did start an "OD forum" those sort of remarks would definitely feature prominently.**
He would, if he considered that a solid business opportunity ;)
2002-11-27 00:50 | User Profile
Originally posted by AntiYuppie@Nov 26 2002, 22:30 **Forums devoted to other forums look ridiculous, they degenerate into mindless, gossipy "who said what to whom" posts and tend to focus on personalities instead of issues and ideas.........
Having a whole section devoted to FR would simply devalue this forum by dragging it down to the cyber-trash level of Arator's "Freeper Reunion," and would no doubt attract internet garbage along the lines of Mojo, Monty, Eschoir, etc: in short the political equivalent of yellow journalism.**
Some other forums devoted to Free Republic have been said to degenerate to gossip etc., but I think that can be a matter of taste. Gossip etc., can take over a forum if the moderator is weak, such as Arator. However Liberty Forum, and even more recently Liberty Post, also, let us remember, started out principally as Anti-Freeper sites. At one time posts in the FR/Biker bar outnumber posts n the rest of the forum by about 100/1, by my rough count. Neil handled it in a rather clever way IMO, so effective he didn't even have to ban Mojo/Pointystick.
The methods of Mojo/PointyStick in the AF forums, together with the issues surrounding why JR altered his foorum poicies, do bring up an interesting question of course about the use and potential of the internet. Fundamentally most of us tend to assume that the ideas held by other posters, whatever their quality, are sincerely held, and should be refuted on their own merits, not by ad hominem atacks, personal insults, threats etc. This is part of what I think MacDonald calls "the veil of ignorance" in a democratic society, where people's political opinions and actions or other decisions of significant political legal nature (such as those in the legal system) are trustingly presumed to at least be their own honest best shot, irrespective of their personal interest, group membership etc.
In reality of course things are quite a bit more complex. For instance, you, Chronicles, and insiders we know all point to JR's personal and financial interests. Such things are interesting, I admit, but fundamentally, as people who approach this question from really a fundamentally democratic, liberal, mindset, such questions tend to be distracting, and we tune them out to a large extent. To those who aren't interested in them or follow them closely they seem to be horribly trite. I don't think I've checked over in the Liberty Post bikre bar section for instance for three months now. Either its did or its some indeterminable, thousand post thread over what who said to who or how johnrob got his cruise financed etc.
To a certain extent these questions are part of of the inevitable paradoxes of democracy, and being smart and insightful involves striking a balance between the two. I actualy think we do a pretty good job in most aspects. We're trying to view these forums as part of their broader political perspective, and that is something our current system does do fairly well. Still as the Chronicles article notes, FR is the 800 lb gorilla of the internet, and I think it just unrealistic not to keep an eye on it all the time, and occasionally take a rather close look at it. In the political world cyber forums like this are really our direct competitor, and things there can directly influence what we do here and vice versa, unlike say the rest of the poluitical world, where cyber forums are pretty much all ignored or dismissed.
2002-11-27 01:18 | User Profile
**In the political world cyber forums like this are really our direct competitor, and things there can directly influence what we do here and vice versa, unlike say the rest of the poluitical world, where cyber forums are pretty much all ignored or dismissed. **
What are you saying, that political rivalries in cyberspace for practical purposes are really nothing but a tempest in a teapot? :lol:
To some extent there may be some truth to that. If a large portion of the electorate relied on broadcast media for its information (which it does), then it would be easy to manipulate and steer the herds in a predictable, calculated manner if media ownership was concentrated in a few hands (which it is--with increasing frequency).
Granted, at least the Internet allows people who want the real news to get it if they're willing to make the effort, and it allows them to converse with and talk strategy with others.
2002-11-27 01:36 | User Profile
It's sad because from everything I can tell (such as the quote above) he was once a good man, somebody who was basically on the side of genuine conservative principles and who stood behind his "grassroots" approach (the grassroots includes militia men, Birchers, racialists, Buchanan supporters, etc).
Money changes everything.
As far as the true impact and influence of Internet discussion forums...hard times change everything. Tough to find people willing to upset the applecart in a go-go economy, when their livelihood is dependant on the applecart sitting upright. They're a little more open to tearing sh*t up when the money runs out, however.
As entertainment/leisure time options go, the Internet is cheap and filling and - once you're properly disaffected enough with the system to notice - offers actual content, and a place for you to have your voice heard in response. (This obviously doesn't mean every voice raised is a valid one. Individuals are responsible for their own idiocies.) And should you choose to lurk or participate on a forum like this, it becomes painfully obvious, and quickly, that by comparison the chain papers and television news programs are outlets more of control than communication, speaking as they all do with one single well-modulated voice, all offering the Soma of false consensus without ever getting around to asking you for your two cents.
I'm not a worse-is-better kind of guy, but it's pretty obvious a long painful economic hangover has begun, coinciding with an outrageous, and outrageously expensive, runamuck expansion of the State - the Bush Doctrine, ie, "it's terribly unfortunate about the economy, but what can I do? Perle & Wolfowitz say it has to be now, like Ariel keeps telling us." Therefore, like it or not (I don't), a hard rain is gonna fall, and I would expect more and more people, angry, voiceless and boxed into a corner on all sides by their own government & the media, will find their way to places like this. In a bear economy, political forums - especially "extreme" ones - will be a growth industry.
2002-11-27 01:46 | User Profile
Originally posted by il ragno@Nov 26 2002, 19:36 > It's sad because from everything I can tell (such as the quote above) he was once a good man, somebody who was basically on the side of genuine conservative principles and who stood behind his "grassroots" approach (the grassroots includes militia men, Birchers, racialists, Buchanan supporters, etc).**
Yep, Ragno. The 2002 RimJob would ban the 1999 RimJob in a Tel Aviv nanosecond.**
Yep, Ragno. The 2002 RimJob would ban the 1999 RimJob in a Tel Aviv nanosecond.
Have you seen that FR rally pic with Robinson waving the Israeli flag? Priceless. ;)
2002-11-27 01:49 | User Profile
Originally posted by AntiYuppie@Nov 26 2002, 22:44 What JR is really all about is hard to pin down because the man is essentially a principle-free piece of driftwood bobbing around in the political current.
I think that opinion does pretty much pin him down, in a sense. However, as I note above, part of democratic discourse is a sort of "veil of ignorance" presuming the political/civic honesty of our fellows.
If one does not grant that, if you think about it, internet political discussions and discussin groups as a whole are rather pointless. That is one reason I think that people do try to maintain certain standards, preventing the likes of the Leo's, Mojo's, Eschoirs, however, who have no beliefs and loyalties other than their own ego's, from distracting or dominating.
**Strangely enough, if the man ever had any principles at all, they were not the neocon lickspittle views he spouts today. He started out as a fierce critic of the entire Bush clan and the RNC apparatus (I admired Robinson for being among the only visible Repubicans who would point out the Clinton-Bush Mena Arkansas connection, and for attacking the hypocrisy of Bush supporters who condemn Clinton for his drug use and sleazy financial dealings when Bush has done pretty much the same thing).
Furthermore, he was hardly a Zionist lapdog, as his forum had a reputation among neos as a stronghold for Buchanan supporters, John Birch types, and anti-Zionists. Many of the "anti-Freepers" are STILL whining about these very things because they can't get over the fact that people like us were once allowed to post there. JR would remove racial slurs etc. (a policy I basically agree with) but would allow honest discussion of issues.
For example, consider JR's remarks to the psycho-babble of "Zionist Conspirator" a couple of years ago, when ZC was wailing about all the "Jew haters" on FR:
**It's also full of Catholic haters, Baptist haters, Protestant haters, Islam haters, Muslim haters, Christian haters, Atheist haters, Mormon haters, Buddhist haters, etc.
It's also full of Catholic lovers, Baptist lovers, Protestant lovers, Islam lovers, Muslim lovers, Christian lovers, Atheist lovers, Mormon lovers Buddhist lovers, and Jewish LOVERS!
We have people of every walk of life and every religion and some who do not believe in religion at all. We also have a first amendment which guarantees our God-given right to freedom of speech and freedom of religion. People are free to love, like, dislike, hate or be indifferent to anyone or anything they choose. We do try to keep out some of the more hateful or threatening stuff, but we are definitely not going to delete every post where someone expresses their dislike for some religion, person or thing.
Give it a break! Religion is NOT the primary topic of this website to begin with. I would just as soon NONE of it is posted here.
16 Posted on 08/31/2000 11:47:16 PDT by Jim Robinson
[url=http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a39ae97b46d31.htm]http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a39ae97b46d31.htm[/url]**
That he degenerated from a policy where the Zionist issue could be openly discussed in a civil fashion to one where the forum has been taken over by fanatical Israel-firsters and ADL-style watchdogs vigilant for creeping "anti-Semitism" indicates not a change of heart but rather opportunistic greed for neocon-controlled grants and slush funds combined with a coward's fear of law suits from B'nai B'rith, SPLC, and the dreaded "hate site" label.**
Thanks for digging this up. I know there's a lot of these quotes around, JR undoubtedly has changed his political positions over the years. The same thing of course could be said of others. Bill Buckley has profited greatly personally from his "mainstream acceptability", with his books and TV personna. National Review magazine profited greatly from its relationship with the neocon dominated foundations. In fact, all the mainstream neocons profit personally from their establishment acceptability.
What's the answer? Do we quite reading the text of the mainstream press, and just start reading the financial statements? Do we take McCain one step further, and say since money is corrupting American life, we are going to place all political writers on mandantory fixed stipends, with no outside income allowed?
In short, what's truly pathetic about Robinson is that he doesn't believe in the "anti-racist," pro-Bush, pro-GOP< and philosemitic drivel that he now peddles. He mouths the words scripted to him by his donors, his extortes, and his handlers. It's sad because from everything I can tell (such as the quote above) he was once a good man, somebody who was basically on the side of genuine conservative principles and who stood behind his "grassroots" approach (the grassroots includes militia men, Birchers, racialists, Buchanan supporters, etc).
A man can certainly change his political beliefs in response to circumstances he sees, but a truly good man won't change his basic views just to accommodate the latest political winds. Men's political thinking can change, but their basic inner moral character is something really they either have or they don't. Barring some cataclysmic event or rare spiritual/religious transformation. I'm not a psychiatrist or preacher, so I'll leave that up to God almighty who alone knows the heart. All we can judge is by the fruit, which in its entirety we now know to be rotten.
As for where the grassroots right should go, to a large part I think that the Liberty Forum is filling the void created by FR, hosting a good mix of libertarians and paleoconservatives alike. John Deere is filling the niche Robinson once filled, i.e. an open-minded moderator and site master who believes that what defines the Right should be based on the open market of ideas rather than the dictates of the Anti-Defamation League. OD fills a slightly different niche, being smaller in scope, it allows a core groups of people committed to nationalism and paleoconservatism to discuss what direction the movement should be taking.
No doubt, other forums are filling the void and eventually will fill it completely. The FR affair is interesting because it does show some of the basic weaknesses of the internet, as well as its strengths.
We invest a great deal of time, on reflection in these forums. The internet, being esentially unregulated and without law, is thus vulnerable to certain types of cyberpredators like the Robinson's.
Its interesting, and I think worthy of some reflection, how this man of rather limited political insight and dubious character has managed to create the 800 pound gorilla that so dominates internet politics.
2002-11-27 02:13 | User Profile
What's the answer? Do we quite reading the text of the mainstream press, and just start reading the financial statements? Do we take McCain one step further, and say since money is corrupting American life, we are going to place all political writers on mandantory fixed stipends, with no outside income allowed?
We keep on, is the answer. This is going to take a long time, one generation passing the baton to the next, until the job is done. Today's high-profile, brand-name hotshot will likely be tomorrow's afterthought....I believe the lightning-rod personality who will galvanize the white West awake has not even begun contributing, is not even politically or racially aware yet, quite possibly has not been born yet. Whether or not he or she even emerges in our lifetime, it behooves all of us to keep doing what we're doing, only better - more passionately, more intelligently, more effectively.
2002-11-27 02:41 | User Profile
Originally posted by Centinel@Nov 27 2002, 01:18 > In the political world cyber forums like this are really our direct competitor, and things there can directly influence what we do here and vice versa, unlike say the rest of the political world, where cyber forums are pretty much all ignored or dismissed. **
What are you saying, that political rivalries in cyberspace for practical purposes are really nothing but a tempest in a teapot? :lol: **
In my bad moods, sometimes I'd think tempest is exagerated, maybe more like a couple of ripples in a teapot;) Seriously though, I don't think you want to underestimate us. Of course cyberforums in general certainly occupy, officially, a low spot on the political spectrum. In the mainstream press, even FReepers are dismissed as a bunch of militia kooks. Unofficially though, the forums, like other outlets for people with strong/fringe views do have a lot of influence. I suspect a lot of people read these forums who do not admit it, as has been discussed around here a number of times, from the number of lurkers we get, including some I am pretty sure, from what I've been confidentially told that we'd prefer not to have. <_< :ph34r:
The mainstream politicians endeavor to harness(or more exactly exploit) ours and these other grouups energy I think, while frustrating their basic intents. FR is a perfect example. An old Chronicles article
[url=http://forum.originaldissent.com/index.php?act=ST&f=3&t=993&hl=this+is+conservatism]This is Conservatism?[/url]
posted here I think points this out.
**To some extent there may be some truth to that. If a large portion of the electorate relied on broadcast media for its information (which it does), then it would be easy to manipulate and steer the herds in a predictable, calculated manner if media ownership was concentrated in a few hands (which it is--with increasing frequency).
Granted, at least the Internet allows people who want the real news to get it if they're willing to make the effort, and it allows them to converse with and talk strategy with others.**
Of course what is interesting about Free Republic was that it was much more than a chatroom as the article noted
**Free Republic was more than just an ordinary message board in the early settlement of the internet. Surfers could post whole articles from publications and make them topics of discussion and debate. And it was more than just another chat room. Free Republic's likeminded members could be connected from across the country to organize activist projects and events. In 1998, when many Republicans wanted to ignore Kenneth Starr's report on the Clinton scandals rather than deal with its charges, Free Republic members (or "Freepers," as they call themselves) lit up the congressional phones and organized demonstrations that influenced Republicans in the House to vote for articles of impeachment. And it was the Freepers, not the GOP, who organized the demonstrations of conservatives down in Florida during the 2000 presidential vote recount.
Over 60,000 people have been registered members of Free Republic, the largest conservative oriented website in the world. Members are a diverse lot: independents, Republicans, libertarians, (large "L" and small), neocons, paleocons, Buchanan Brigaders, Keyes supporters and everything in between. Even such prominent pundits as Justin Raimondo. Ann Coulter Barbara Olson and Lucianne Goldberg (known by her Freeper handle, "Trixie,") have made frequent posts.**
This and many other articles point out that whatever the defects of Free Republic from the standards of internet ideological purists like us, politically it is the 800 pound gorilla in the forest that the local farmers and even the governor practically still have to take note of. It has become a political force, not just an internet force, and has to be treated as such. It makes no more sense for us to ignore Jim Robinson and what he is up to than it does Bill Kristol, or George W. Bush, and as with Billy and Dubbya, our movement's goals must be, to not be considered a failure politically speaking, to devise an effective counterweight to the influence of these people.
I take the matter of JR a bit more personally than Billy or Dubbya, because unlike publishing or politics the internet is something we're directly involved in.
2002-11-27 02:57 | User Profile
Originally posted by AntiYuppie@Nov 27 2002, 01:52 > Yep, Ragno. The 2002 RimJob would ban the 1999 RimJob in a Tel Aviv nanosecond.**
Here's an amusing trick to play: find some of the thing JR posted about Bush et al back in 1998 and 1999. Paraphrase them slightly (i.e. substitute some synonyms here and there) while keeping the meaning intact, and watch Jim Robinson ban someone for expressing the very ideas JR himself loudly expressed just three years ago. **
Hey I don't think so. It all makes perfect sense to me.
We have people of every walk of life and every religion and some who do not believe in religion at all. We also have a first amendment which guarantees our God-given right to freedom of speech and freedom of religion. People are free to love, like, dislike, hate or be indifferent to anyone or anything they choose. We do try to keep out some of the more hateful or threatening stuff, but we are definitely not going to delete every post where someone expresses their dislike for some religion, person or thing.** ÃÂ - Jim Robinson, 8/2000 ...........................................................
just as long as they aren't from Well, let's see..... the anti-Semites, the racists, the bigots, the tin-foil hat conspiracy nuts, the America did it crowd, the cowardly anti-war America haters, the America got what she deserves crowd, the DU disruptors, the perverts, the religion bashers, the Bush is a Nazi crowd, the Bush did it crowd, the it's all about oil crowd, the I'd rather support Clintonites crowd, the foul mouthed bashers, the smash mouth bashers, the just can't seem to get along with anyone crowd, the I hate everyone crowd, the naysayers, the doom and gloom sky is falling crowd, the woe is me we're all doomed crowd, etc, etc, etc.**
It's pathetic when a forum not only censors their own rank and file, but self-censors the words of its own (ostensible) owner. It just goes to show that JR himself has become just a front, the forum is really run by far more influential and sinister individuals and organizations than JR himself. I wonder how much money Edgar Bronfman and other Khazar tycoons funnel to FR every year?
I'm not sure in this regard actually. Even Mojo hasn't come up with anything really hard here. It is obvious though that JR is very closed with FR's books. JR could raise hundreds of thousands more by making Free Republic a non-profit corporation, rather than just a limited liability corporation. That however would involve opening his books to much more outside scrutiny.
Just about every article I've read, including this one, hints somehow that money was at the bottom of FR's transformation. I suspect they'd so more if it wasn't for fear of liability. FR for some reason has become very litigious recently about charges involving their finances.
(P.S. does anyone else besides me notice the type size jumping around?)
2002-11-27 03:02 | User Profile
Originally posted by il ragno@Nov 26 2002, 20:13 > ...I believe the lightning-rod personality who will galvanize the white West awake has not even begun contributing, is not even politically or racially aware yet, quite possibly has not been born yet. Whether or not he or she even emerges in our lifetime,....** **
It might even be YOU .....but keep an eye on Linder. He has a lot of the requirements, including the contempt of his overly sophisticated brethren.
2002-11-27 03:04 | User Profile
It has become a political force, not just an internet force, and has to be treated as such.
Actually, I will agree with this. FR is almost a gray-hat agitator force for the neocon higher-ups in the GOP. (Likud, too, for that matter). Close enough to be fed talking points and get some tidbits of praise and made to be felt "part of the team," yet far enough away from the party so that FReeper actions aren't construed as officially endorsed by the White House or GOP.
FReepers are like a no-cost rent-a-riot that can be incited to action to harass politicians, lecturers, journalists, businesses or anyone else making waves that appears to be coming from "grass roots activists."
2002-11-27 03:10 | User Profile
Originally posted by il ragno@Nov 27 2002, 02:13 We keep on, is the answer. This is going to take a long time, one generation passing the baton to the next, until the job is done...... it behooves all of us to keep doing what we're doing, only better - more passionately, more intelligently, more effectively. ****
I agree with you here, especially on the passionate, intelligently, effectively part.
Its important for us to keep the framework in place and keep plugging away. At the same time, I know some great ideas are really audacious, unordinary, revolutionary, even crazy. Maybe for instance if we could just get Max to streak the next MTV awards in front of Britney with an "OriginalDissent.COM - paleo's, not bimbos" it might do more for paleoism than 1000 essays on List.
(Just joking AY, I know Britney's your favorite singer :D )
2002-11-27 03:17 | User Profile
Originally posted by Centinel@Nov 27 2002, 03:04 **Actually, I will agree with this. FR is almost a gray-hat agitator force for the neocon higher-ups in the GOP. (Likud, too, for that matter). Close enough to be fed talking points and get some tidbits of praise and made to be felt "part of the team," yet far enough away from the party so that FReeper actions aren't construed as officially endorsed by the White House or GOP.
FReepers are like a no-cost rent-a-riot that can be incited to action to harass politicians, lecturers, journalists, businesses or anyone else making waves that appears to be coming from "grass roots activists."**
Hate to admit it, but yours truly got involved in one of those Freeper demo's against "Sore Loserman" (another instance of a FR concept that really had mainstream impact.) AY and others know what a soft-headed guy I can be.
Maybe sometime a few of us ought to "Freep the Freepers" or something :D
2002-11-27 03:24 | User Profile
"OriginalDissent.COM - paleo's, not bimbos"
You know, that slogan has a nice ring to it.
2002-11-27 03:26 | User Profile
Originally posted by Okiereddust@Nov 26 2002, 21:10 Maybe for instance if we could just get Max to streak the next MTV awards in front of Britney with an "OriginalDissent.COM - paleo's, not bimbos"** it might do more for paleoism than 1000 essays on List.
(Just joking AY, I know Britney's your favorite singer :D )**
Man, that's funny.
:lol:
2002-11-27 03:34 | User Profile
Originally posted by il ragno@Nov 26 2002, 22:13 > What's the answer? Do we quite reading the text of the mainstream press, and just start reading the financial statements? Do we take McCain one step further, and say since money is corrupting American life, we are going to place all political writers on mandantory fixed stipends, with no outside income allowed?**
We keep on, is the answer. This is going to take a long time, one generation passing the baton to the next, until the job is done. Today's high-profile, brand-name hotshot will likely be tomorrow's afterthought....I believe the lightning-rod personality who will galvanize the white West awake has not even begun contributing, is not even politically or racially aware yet, quite possibly has not been born yet. Whether or not he or she even emerges in our lifetime, it behooves all of us to keep doing what we're doing, only better - more passionately, more intelligently, more effectively.**
Shades of Savitri Devi's *Lightning and the Sun* here. Very good.
2002-11-27 03:36 | User Profile
Originally posted by Texas Dissident@Nov 26 2002, 23:26 > Originally posted by Okiereddust@Nov 26 2002, 21:10 Maybe for instance if we could just get Max to streak the next MTV awards in front of Britney with an "OriginalDissent.COM - paleo's, not bimbos" it might do more for paleoism than 1000 essays on List.
(Just joking AY, I know Britney's your favorite singer :D )**
Man, that's funny.
:lol:**
Very cool change TD has made to the forum masthead.
2002-11-28 04:56 | User Profile
[url=http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/backroom/793011/posts?q=1&&page=301]http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/backroom...s?q=1&&page=301[/url]
To: Jim Robinson
*Well, let's see. We kicked out the anti-Semites, the racists, the bigots, the tin-foil hat conspiracy nuts, the America did it crowd, the cowardly anti-war America haters, the America got what she deserves crowd, the DU disruptors, the perverts, the religion bashers, the Bush is a Nazi crowd, the Bush did it crowd, the it's all about oil crowd, the I'd rather support Clintonites crowd, the foul mouthed bashers, the smash mouth bashers, the just can't seem to get along with anyone crowd, the I hate everyone crowd, the naysayers, the doom and gloom sky is falling crowd, the woe is me we're all doomed crowd, etc, etc, etc. *
Hee hee - well-put.... and a good list of people to usher out the door.
We supported the GOP and we kicked Democrat butt. We helped establish Republican control of both houses of Congress along side a Republican President for one of the very few times in modern history. We helped set the stage to begin replacing liberal activist judges with conservative judges.
Right on. :)
347 posted on 11/25/2002 5:39 AM PST by veronica [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies ]
To: veronica
*and a good list of people to usher out the door. *
Amazing that you're still here then isn't it?
348 posted on 11/25/2002 7:58 AM PST by Demidog [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 347 | View Replies ]
To: Demidog
Amazing that you're still here then isn't it?
Geez. Da dog. Amazing that you're not over at LibertyForum, where every second poster now seems to have an avatar with a swastika on it, or a posse membership, or a membership in The American Nazi party.
Interesting times, odie - that's all I can say ;)).
351 posted on 11/25/2002 8:57 AM PST by Cachelot [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 348 | View Replies ]
LOL! I've seen some of Demidog's posts...he doesn't seem to get along very well with the Israel-First crowd over there. He must donate a fair chunk to be able to pop off to the Zionuts constantly with impunity. He gave them hell on a thread about aid to Israel a few days back...that one that Jefferson C. Davis got banned on
2002-11-30 04:56 | User Profile
Originally posted by AntiYuppie@Nov 29 2002, 21:47 > paleo's, not bimbos**
I guess that means that Annie Coulter's inane essays can no longer be posted in Neo-Con Watch.**
Actually, as I remember you saying, it should maybe be paleo's, not limbaugh's, or bimbo's :D
Although you don't want to shut out those bimbo's. I heard there was discussion that if Pat was going to choose a black woman in 2000, the woman of choice really should have been Vanessa Williams - someone with the proven ability to lick Bush. :D