← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · Walter Yannis
Thread ID: 3638 | Posts: 6 | Started: 2002-11-22
2002-11-22 14:16 | User Profile
There's an interesting discussion going on at FR on US aid to Israel [url=http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/793586/posts]HERE[/url].
One Jefferson C. Davis is defending the Nationalist position well.
He'll probably be vaporized soon.
Enjoy!
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Israel Eyes up to $10 Billion in US Aid (History Repeats itself... another Rabin will elected) Washington Post ^ | 7:30 pm 11/21/02 | Dan Perry - AP
Posted on 11/21/2002 7:42 PM PST by OReilly
History Repeats Itself... 11 years later
The request for guarantees on foreign bank loans would be in addition to the $2.9 million in direct loans and grants that Israel receives annually from the United States, the official said...
Israel, which receives the largest U.S. aid package of any country, relies on the loan guarantees to borrow at lower interest rates.
...The United States guaranteed $10 billion in loans for Israel a decade ago to help it absorb immigrants from the former Soviet Union.
Angry over Israeli settlements in the occupied West Bank and Gaza, then-President George Bush(41) held up the guarantees until the hard-line Yitzhak Shamir was replaced as Israeli prime minister by more moderate Yitzhak Rabin, who signed an interim peace treaty with the Palestinian Liberation Organization.
Excerpted - Full Article ^
TOPICS: Breaking News; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; Government; Israel; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; Political Humor/Cartoons; Politics/Elections KEYWORDS: FOLLOW THE MONEY; ISRAEL ECONOMY
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History Repeats Itself... 11 years later. Another Yitzhak will be elected...
1 posted on 11/21/2002 7:42 PM PST by OReilly [ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies ]
To: OReilly
The obvious question: Wouldnt it be easier to merely make Israel the 51st state?? This is getting ridiculous...
2 posted on 11/21/2002 7:52 PM PST by F16Fighter [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]
To: F16Fighter
The request for guarantees on foreign bank loans would be in addition to the $2.9 million in direct loans and grants that Israel receives annually from the United States, the official said...
It is ridiculous (the amount of money)... and the obvious mistake in the Washington Post text will hopefully be corrected by the times the presses roll in an hour. I'm not going to call them, though. They should have to print a correction, the next day so more people will pay attention to the ridiculous amount. It is 2.9 Billion not Million dollars, plus the 10 Billion Sharon asked for!
3 posted on 11/21/2002 8:08 PM PST by OReilly [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies ]
To: OReilly
Israel's $100 billion economy has been battered by the violence, which has driven away tourists and investors, as well as the global economic slowdown and the crisis in the high-tech sector on which the country depends.
That's a pretty exact description of the US economy (except for the figure). Why don't we ask Israel for a loan?
4 posted on 11/21/2002 8:13 PM PST by Jefferson C. Davis [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]
To: F16Fighter
Wouldnt it be easier to merely make Israel the 51st state??
Why would they want to be a state when they own the whole shebang now?
5 posted on 11/21/2002 8:14 PM PST by Jefferson C. Davis [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies ]
To: OReilly
It's loan Guarantees. It costs the USA NOTHING Unless Israel defaults on its loans, which it has NEVER done. And almost all of the money (the $3bil a year anyway) is speant on US products.
6 posted on 11/21/2002 8:17 PM PST by College Repub [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies ]
To: OReilly
It is 2.9 Billion not Million dollars
You believe that's a mistake? Good catch.
7 posted on 11/21/2002 8:17 PM PST by Jefferson C. Davis [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies ]
To: Jefferson C. Davis
Wouldnt it be easier to merely make Israel the 51st state?? <<<<< Why would they want to be a state when they own the whole shebang now?
Right, Why pay taxes when they can threaten some (many) US Reps and Senators into a free lunch, sort of like Puerto Rico?
8 posted on 11/21/2002 8:19 PM PST by OReilly [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies ]
To: F16Fighter
Wouldnt it be easier to merely make Israel the 51st state?? This is getting ridiculous...
Why do you single out Israel? Our help to Europeans far exceeds that to Israel, and no once anyone expresses a problem with that. Why?
9 posted on 11/21/2002 8:24 PM PST by TopQuark [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies ]
To: OReilly
plus the 10 Billion Sharon asked for!
YOu read well, so observe that $10B is not a loan.
10 posted on 11/21/2002 8:25 PM PST by TopQuark [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies ]
To: College Repub
Unless Israel defaults on its loans, which it has NEVER done
That is pure sophistry. Israel has never defaulted on a loan because it has never been required to pay one back. They are forgiven as they become due. At one time the congress appropriated enough extra money to cover loans coming due. That was the Jackson Amendment, remember? It's no longer necessary--they just cancel them nowadays.
Somehow I think you knew all that.
11 posted on 11/21/2002 8:26 PM PST by Jefferson C. Davis [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies ]
To: Jefferson C. Davis
This constitutes a well-known, standard anti-Semitic libel. Please refrain from such.
12 posted on 11/21/2002 8:27 PM PST by TopQuark [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies ]
To: College Repub
It's loan Guarantees. It costs the USA NOTHING Unless Israel defaults on its loans, which it has NEVER done. And almost all of the money (the $3bil a year anyway) is speant on US products.
Exactly. 5 billion will be used to purchase US arms. We blow twice that much during our own procurment of US weapons.
13 posted on 11/21/2002 8:27 PM PST by Guy Angelito [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies ]
To: TopQuark
Why do you single out Israel? Our help to Europeans far exceeds that to Israel, and no once anyone expresses a problem with that. Why?
Anti-semitism. The media only puts a figure on Israel's aid. That, as they intend, makes them the target.
14 posted on 11/21/2002 8:29 PM PST by Guy Angelito [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies ]
To: TopQuark
Why do you single out Israel? Our help to Europeans far exceeds that to Israel, and no once anyone expresses a problem with that. Why?
Because it's nonsense.
Over half our annual foreign aid budget goes to Israel and Egypt (who is being paid off for the Camp David accords). We give a pittance to Europe, which doesn't really need it.
Figured on a per capita basis our aid to Israel is stupendous, something like $10,000 per man, woman and child.
15 posted on 11/21/2002 8:32 PM PST by Jefferson C. Davis [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies ]
To: TopQuark
plus the 10 Billion Sharon asked for! <<<<< YOu read well, so observe that $10B is not a loan.
So abserve that it is 10 billion dollars and 2.9 Billion dollars (just pocket change to you I guess). I call it Hutzpah, in the extreme! (...for you, make that Chutzpah)
16 posted on 11/21/2002 8:32 PM PST by OReilly [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies ]
To: OReilly
abserve SB observe
17 posted on 11/21/2002 8:34 PM PST by OReilly [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies ]
To: TopQuark
You're getting hysterical, Quark. Please refrain from that.
18 posted on 11/21/2002 8:36 PM PST by Jefferson C. Davis [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies ]
To: Jefferson C. Davis
No, our aid to Israel is very similar. We spend almost twice more on defense than Europeans and that constitutes our help. The money given to Israel, similarly, buys our weapons.
The only difference is that our weapon with which we defend Europe are in the hands of our soldiers, whereas in the case of Israel they are given to IDF. We help Europeans much more, thus.
You are confused between economics and accouting: what matters is the total transfer of money (economics), not how it is recorded in books (accouning). AS I said earlier, our tranfer to Europe dwarfs that to Israel. Both are given for the same reasons. But only the aid to Jooooos ever bother people.
19 posted on 11/21/2002 8:39 PM PST by TopQuark [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies ]
To: OReilly
So abserve that it is 10 billion dollars and 2.9 Billion dollars (just pocket change to you I guess). No, what is means is that you cannot see a difference between a loan and a loan guarantee even when you stare at it.
I call it Hutzpah, in the extreme! (...for you, make that Chutzpah) What is this supposed to mean?
20 posted on 11/21/2002 8:41 PM PST by TopQuark [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies ]
To: Jefferson C. Davis
No, just attracting public attention to bigoted statements. Given that you have not withdrawn it, I can say --- to your bigotry.
21 posted on 11/21/2002 8:42 PM PST by TopQuark [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies ]
To: OReilly
I love Israel....but isn't it time we wean her??? C'mom Americans....Israel will be fine without its welfare payment. We are all just enabling. It's time to let the baby grow up.....
22 posted on 11/21/2002 8:45 PM PST by hove [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]
To: hove
It's time to let the baby grow up.....
Sine Die
23 posted on 11/21/2002 8:49 PM PST by OReilly [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies ]
To: hove
We are all just enabling. It's time to let the baby grow up.....
The country is at war, even formally, with its neighbors. It provides all the courage and soldiers but clearly is incapable of producing the required amount of weapons to defend itself.
In the last ten years, it has absorbed an equivalent of 50M to 60M of American immigrants --- where would our economy be if we had to do that.
You are completely oblivious to these factors, and say that you love Israel?
24 posted on 11/21/2002 8:52 PM PST by TopQuark [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies ]
To: TopQuark
Some of the money given to Israel buys our weapons; much does not. Much is invested in that Israeli high tech industry which is in competition with ours. Much of it goes, directly or indirectly, to build settlements in Palestinian territory. Some to bring emigrants from Russia and to support them. Etc. Etc.
Our troops and weapons in Europe are there to keep Europe in the US sphere of interest--the same as in Japan, Korea, and many other places. Our support of Israel has cost us the Middle East as a sphere of influence which includes most of the world's oil.
I am probably confused about a lot of things but the price we have paid for our support of Israel over the past fifty years is not one of them.
25 posted on 11/21/2002 8:55 PM PST by Jefferson C. Davis [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies ]
To: TopQuark
In the last ten years, it has absorbed an equivalent of 50M to 60M of American immigrants --- where would our economy be if we had to do that.
The US has admitted that many immigrants in the past ten years. And we haven't asked anyone for a dime.
One of the problems Israel has not solved is the number of immigrants who use Israel as a brief stop on their way to the US.
26 posted on 11/21/2002 9:01 PM PST by Jefferson C. Davis [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies ]
To: TopQuark
In the last ten years, it has absorbed an equivalent of 50M to 60M of American immigrants --- where would our economy be if we had to do that.
The US has admitted that many immigrants in the past ten years. And we haven't asked anyone for a dime.
One of the problems Israel has not solved is the number of immigrants who use Israel as a brief stop on their way to the US.
27 posted on 11/21/2002 9:01 PM PST by Jefferson C. Davis [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies ]
To: Jefferson C. Davis
Sorry. I don't think it was worth posting twice.
28 posted on 11/21/2002 9:02 PM PST by Jefferson C. Davis [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies ]
To: Jefferson C. Davis
I am probably confused about a lot of things We are close to an agreement here. However, I think that you came to a conclusion first and then selectively processed and retained facts to justify that conclusion. And you do not normally do that in other areas, unrelated to Jews. In other words, you have all the mental capacity to see but choose not to do so.
You do not have to support our foreign aid policy. You are of course free to dislike Jews -- hey, this is a great, free country! But this is a public forum with stated standards, and I request that you do not repeat anti-Semitic libels.
We've exchanged our views; that's where our roads part.
29 posted on 11/21/2002 9:02 PM PST by TopQuark [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies ]
To: hove
Well said, hove. They will be even more proud of themselves when they stand on their own two feet. The sooner the better. In case no one's noticed, most of us are pretty tired of taking care of everybody .
30 posted on 11/21/2002 9:04 PM PST by meema [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies ]
To: Jefferson C. Davis
I am probably confused about a lot of things but the price we have paid for our support of Israel over the past fifty years is not one of them.
Most Americans are coming to their senses again... (and realizing that you are right) It has ebbed and flowed for 50 years, but it is heading south again. (witness the Cable News Ad that started out with, "Israel is our Only Ally in the Middle East."
31 posted on 11/21/2002 9:04 PM PST by OReilly [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies ]
To: hove
Could you pick better timing ?
32 posted on 11/21/2002 9:05 PM PST by John Lenin [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies ]
To: TopQuark
Sonny, don't patronize me. I don't need your analyses of my thought processes and I don't need to be called a bigot because I disagree with you.
I have read arrogant statements before on this forum but yours rates a prize.
33 posted on 11/21/2002 9:12 PM PST by Jefferson C. Davis [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies ]
To: TopQuark
"The country is at war, even formally, with its neighbors. It provides all the courage and soldiers but clearly is incapable of producing the required amount of weapons to defend itself."
Thanks to the years of gifts to the tune of billions of dollars, Israel has aquired enough weapons to obtain a massive military superiority in the region. The people of Israel are hard working and intelligent. They are at war. I'm sure they could mobilize a war economy. It's just so easy to be handed 10 billion dollars and then go shopping for more goodies. They don't need to be enabled. They need resolve. Resolve to win THEIR war. And that means building their own military. You sell the people of Israel short. Or maybe you have an interest in the American handouts.
Don't forget, Israel has America for an ally. If they need help, we will be there. But that doesn't mean we need to dump a truck load of American tax dollars in their laps every year.
34 posted on 11/21/2002 9:17 PM PST by hove [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies ]
To: John Lenin
"Could you pick better timing ?
Please help me out.....I'm a bit slow on the uptake.
35 posted on 11/21/2002 9:19 PM PST by hove [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies ]
To: hove
No wonder you said that. Forget it, if you don't get it.
36 posted on 11/21/2002 9:27 PM PST by John Lenin [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies ]
To: Jefferson C. Davis
I am probably confused about a lot of things but the price we have paid for our support of Israel over the past fifty years is not one of them.
You are so dead on!
Let's give that foreign aid to another democracy in the region who'll keep tabs on their neighbors who want to kill us...
oh wait, there isn't another one.
37 posted on 11/21/2002 9:31 PM PST by sf4dubya [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies ]
To: OReilly
sort of like Puerto Rico?
IMHO, the $10 billion would be better spent in Puerto Rico. Puerto Ricans are U.S. citizens. Political ideologies aside, we have an obligation to see that Puerto Rico has a sound, economic infrastructure. As a relatively small, island economy, there are some items that would be pretty easy to address. One would be to convert Puerto Rico's electricty generation away from fossil fuels to nuclear. Give 'em some solar and/or windmills as well to keep the enviros happy. Just wean 'em off dependence on imported fossil fuel.
Make sure water is not an issue. Give Puerto Rico first class water/sewage treatment systems and desalination plants for supply, if necessary. Clean water is an extremely important resource both on and surrounding and island.
Transportation? The island is really too small to need any kind of superhighway system. But I'm certain that a modern, efficient electric light-rail mass-transit system would improve mobility for both residents and tourists.
$10 billion? That oughta just about cover my ideas. $10 billion would be quite helpful for Puerto Rico.
38 posted on 11/21/2002 9:38 PM PST by Willie Green [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies ]
To: sf4dubya
oh wait, there isn't another one.
Did you write the ad copy for the Cable Ad, Israel Firsters have been running lately? First they said, "Israel, our only Ally in the Middle East". Then they said, "Israel, our only real Ally in the Middle East." Then they said, "Israel, our real Ally in the Middle East" What are you going to come up with next?
39 posted on 11/21/2002 9:44 PM PST by OReilly [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies ]
To: F16Fighter
It would be a hell of a lot cheaper if they were the 51st state.
40 posted on 11/21/2002 9:48 PM PST by bybybill [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies ]
To: dennisw
Does this call for one of your replies that is laced with "parasite" and "leech"
Hypocrite.
41 posted on 11/21/2002 9:51 PM PST by PRND21 [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]
To: OReilly
I'll wait for your next post, which will display a link to a story regarding the USS Liberty tragedy.
I won't hold my breath waiting to hear your call for divestment in Egypt.
42 posted on 11/21/2002 10:00 PM PST by sf4dubya [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies ]
To: sf4dubya
I won't hold my breath waiting to hear your call for divestment in Egypt.
Oh, go ahead!
43 posted on 11/21/2002 10:21 PM PST by OReilly [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies ]
To: TopQuark
Why do you single out Israel?
How many posts will it take you to start flinging around charges of anti-Semitism. If you read the article you'd notice that Israel is the largest foreign benefactor. What do we get in return? 9/11. What a deal.
44 posted on 11/21/2002 11:06 PM PST by Demidog [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies ]
To: Jefferson C. Davis
Our foreign aid to Israel is about 3 Billion. There are 6 million Israelis. That works out to $500 not 10,000. it is roughly 3% of Israel's GNP.
for the record, I think you are doing Jeff Davis a dishonor by projecting your dislike of Jews onto him by using his name.
45 posted on 11/21/2002 11:13 PM PST by rmlew [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies ]
To: rmlew
You idiots can't go a single post without flinging around the "anti-Semite" charges.
46 posted on 11/21/2002 11:15 PM PST by Demidog [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 45 | View Replies ]
To: hove
I agree. We are subsidizing the state socialist infrastructure. However, I dosn't think that this is why some posters want the subsidy ended. Check out Jefferson C. Davis's position history.
47 posted on 11/21/2002 11:15 PM PST by rmlew [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies ]
To: Jefferson C. Davis
Israel does do a number of things for the US, including Balancing the Arab world and acting as an outpost of Western Civ. Of course some of us would preffer to sell out our allies in the hope that hte Islamists will not go after us.
48 posted on 11/21/2002 11:17 PM PST by rmlew [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies ]
To: Demidog
really? Check my posting history. This is the first time all month. You guys can't go one day without questioning our patriotism.
As to my point, check out his positng history and see his obsessions.
49 posted on 11/21/2002 11:20 PM PST by rmlew [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies ]
To: rmlew
This is the first time all month.
OH gosh. I just got the rare opportunity to see you enter the thread and make your first post an ubsubstantiated accusation of anti-Semitism. Lucky me.
50 posted on 11/21/2002 11:23 PM PST by Demidog [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 49 | View Replies ]
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2002-11-22 17:34 | User Profile
doncha just love how the Israel Firsters throw out the "anti-semite" canard so quickly to shut down the debate?
I wonder what they'd say to someone who holds a position that there shouldn't be any foreign aid to anybody? It's just that Israel happens to get more than anyone else.
As globalization advances and the US economy keeps tanking with more and more people living on reduced wages, taxation and supporting the nanny state at home and Israel abroad are gonna become major issues, and common people aren't gonna care if it's "PC" or not to gripe about foreign aid.
These FReepers and their fellow travellers in the elite media aren't going to be able to run interference for Israel much longer, methinks.
Heh, I was reading an old article last night titled "The End of Paleoconservatism" one and particular passage came to mind as I read that thread on FR:
[url=http://www.nationalinvestor.com/Experts-Lubinskas.htm]http://www.nationalinvestor.com/Experts-Lubinskas.htm[/url]
One of the most important paleoconservatives, Samuel Francis, also agrees that the movement is dead. He blames lack of leadership, a good economy and petty squabbling within the movement for the demise. Still, he notes the elements that comprised the movement are still around and that at least two of the issues that fueled it - racial and cultural conflict and immigration - are likely to become more acute. He cites things such as reparations for blacks, the battle over Confederate statues and symbols, the targeting of Columbus Day, the minority status of whites in California, bilingual and multicultural education, hate crime legislation, the resistance to ending affirmative action and a multitude of other issues as a sign that racial conflict will get worse as demographic changes take their toll. Francis predicts a racial nationalism that will develop in response to these problems. Indeed, he thinks such a movement will be even more radical than paleoconservatism.**
2002-11-22 17:46 | User Profile
Thanks to our idiotic largesse, Israel is the 4th most powerful war machine on Earth, with intelligence & disinformation capabilities second to none (witness our own gov't noting their special aptitude for "false flag" operations only a few days before 9/11). Israel is not a 'tiny sliver of freedom in a sea of fascist enemies' but a lethally armed world power who would surely seek to destabilize if not destroy us on the day we cut them off entirely and/or demand repayment on every dime tendered thus far. And they can do it. And I believe this realistic scenario plays an unacknowledged part in our continuing to bankroll them.
Some ally.
2002-11-22 18:38 | User Profile
Israel is not a 'tiny sliver of freedom in a sea of fascist enemies' but a lethally armed world power who would surely seek to destabilize if not destroy us on the day we cut them off entirely and/or demand repayment on every dime tendered thus far. And they can do it. And I believe this realistic scenario plays an unacknowledged part in our continuing to bankroll them.
Damn straight.
Hell hath no fury like a parasite spurned.
Just ask Germany.
2002-11-22 20:24 | User Profile
Jefferson C. Davis is no more.
Damn, I was just getting interested.
RimJob will get a scooby snack I'm sure from his Jewish masters.
2002-11-22 20:27 | User Profile
**Jefferson C. Davis is no more.
Damn, I was just getting interested.
RimJob will get a scooby snack I'm sure from his Jewish masters. **
I wonder if they know other sites like this one follow their idiotic threads with blow-by-blow commentary :lol:
Maybe Jefferson C. Davis will find his way to OD. I swear FR wakes more people up and turns more garden variety conservatives into America-First Paleos better than anything else I can think of.