← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · il ragno
Thread ID: 3258 | Posts: 20 | Started: 2002-10-28
2002-10-28 10:46 | User Profile
The State doing what it does best.
Russians admit 115 hostages were killed by gas poisoning Pressure on Putin to explain how Moscow siege ended By Patrick Cockburn in Moscow 28 October 2002
The dreadful truth about the end of the Moscow theatre siege was becoming clear yesterday. The secret gas, pumped into the building to knock out the Chechen rebels and allow crack Russian troops to storm the building just before dawn on Saturday, killed scores of hostages and caused many others to slip into a coma.
Andrei Seltsovsky, Moscow's most senior doctor, said last night that 115 of the 117 hostages who died as the siege ended were killed by the gas. Only two died of gunshot wounds. Nearly 650 hostages remained in hospital, 150 of whom were in intensive care, with 45 said to be in "grave condition". Out of the 117 dead, Dr Seltsovsky said only 53 had been identified.
Despite the rising death toll, the Russian government was refusing to reveal details of the gas used in the assault, referring to it only as "a special substance". In the hours immediately after the end of the siege, the official Russian position was that many of the victims had died of heart attacks, shock, or lack of medicine for pre-existing ailments.
Dr Seltsovsky said: "In standard situations, the compound that was used on people does not act as aggressively as it turned out to do. But it was used on people who were in a specific [extreme] situation for more than 50 hours." Moscow's chief anaesthesiologist, Yevgeny Yevdokimov, said he was unable to identify the gas but suggested it was a "narcotic substance similar to a general anaesthetic in surgery". It can paralyse breathing, cardiac and liver functioning, and blood circulation.
According to other sources, the gas, so powerful that it caused the Chechen gunmen to fall unconscious even before they could pull the triggers on their bombs, was developed by the FSB security service. But the agency, the successor to the KGB, is refusing to tell doctors the identity of the gas or provide an antidote. The gas was secretly pumped into the theatre at about 5.30am after two hostages had been killed.
As the number of dead hostages ÃÂ on Saturday put at 67 ÃÂ rose by the hour, the mood of people milling around outside the gates of hospitals became more and more frantic. All had relatives caught in the theatre who, along with their Chechen captors, fell unconscious after inhaling the gas.
Yelena Buchkova, tears streaming down her face as she stood on the steps of the Sklifosovsky medical institute, held out a photograph of a fair-haired young man. "It is my son Alexei, such a good boy," she said between sobs. "I can't find him in the hospitals or in the mortuary. Maybe he is in a coma because of the gas and they don't know his name."
Ever since she heard about the Russian assault, Mrs Buchkova had gone from hospital to hospital in Moscow vainly searching for Alexei. "Nobody will say anything or let us in and we have to plead for somebody to come to the door to look at the photograph," she complained.
At the Sklifosovsky Hospital only a few relatives were allowed inside after their passports were checked and then only to see doctors. None was allowed to see the former hostages.
The first two hostage deaths attributed to the gas were foreign nationals. Russian NTV television quoted Dutch and Kazakh officials, each saying that one of their nationals had died from the effect of the gas.
The American embassy in Moscow later demanded that Russia identify the gas used so that a US citizen could be properly treated.
The soaring death toll, and the failure to produce an official list of survivors, meant that relatives were having to traipse around Moscow's many hospitals in cold, driving rain.
"The only place they seem to be well organised is in the mortuary," said Olga, who was had been looking in vain for her son-in-law, Uri.
At City Clinical Hospital No 13, which is caring for the largest number of hostages, the black iron gates remained firmly shut. At the Sklifosovsky, the sick hostages were being kept in a separate wing sealed off by a ring of special forces troops. Sergei Samoylov, a journalist from the daily Moskovsky Komsomolets, opened his jacket to show a white medical gown underneath. "I thought I could slip in by pretending to be a doctor," he said. "But no way. I could not have got in even if I were invisible."
Yelena and her husband, Sergei, agreed that the Russian authorities were right to attack the theatre to prevent the Chechen gunmen blowing it up, killing all inside. "It is a great thing that so many survived, but they should have prepared to help the hostages affected by the gas," Sergei said.
Mr Samoylov said the government was keen to keep charge of the former hostages for two reasons: "They want to interrogate them to see if any are terrorists, and they would like to keep them away from journalists so they don't talk about what happened in the theatre." At Hospital No 13, one patient was detained on suspicion of helping the Chechens.
Most Russians accept that the government had no alternative but to launch an all-out assault. But the authorities' secrecy, which echoes their behaviour during the Kursk submarine disaster two years ago, is probably caused by embarrassment that the gas, though crucial to the attack's success, should have killed so many of their own people.
2002-10-28 15:43 | User Profile
What can you say?
I've spent a big chunk of my life dealing with Russia both personally and professionally, and they still never cease to amaze me.
A colleague once described the Russians as "idiot savants."
There's something to that.
I mean, they dream up this gas thing and pull off a brilliant raid in which just ONE HOSTAGE dies, and then THEY FORGET THE FREEKING ANTIDOTE.
I dunno.
For geniuses, they sure are stupid. No, that's not it. Better this: for morons, they sure are brilliant.
Walter Yannis
2002-10-28 18:00 | User Profile
Originally posted by Walter Yannis@Oct 28 2002, 15:43 **What can you say?
I've spent a big chunk of my life dealing with Russia both personally and professionally, and they still never cease to amaze me.
A colleague once described the Russians as "idiot savants."
There's something to that.
I mean, they dream up this gas thing and pull off a brilliant raid in which just ONE HOSTAGE dies, and then THEY FORGET THE FREEKING ANTIDOTE.
**
I thought this comment summed it up best.
**"The only place they seem to be well organised is in the mortuary," said Olga, who was had been looking in vain for her son-in-law, Uri. **
Typical Russisch. As I understand, there is a word in German for Russian (Russisch) which is also used as a general term for anything unkempt, slovenly, or disorderly. The Russians seem to have proven themselves once again on this one, I'm afraid.
2002-10-28 19:00 | User Profile
You guys should see what Russians in Russia say about Americans :rolleyes: :lol:
2002-10-28 19:26 | User Profile
Originally posted by madrussian@Oct 28 2002, 19:00 You guys should see what Russians in Russia say about Americans :rolleyes: :lol:
You mean, like they can't believe how smart, beautiful, wealthy, and sophisticated we all are? ;)
2002-10-28 20:08 | User Profile
I'm betting that all the horror and outrage expressed over this will lead to the U.S. reopening an investigation into Waco. Surely the illegal gassing of women and children is on a par with this idiocy in the minds of right thinking Murcuns.
Right?
2002-10-29 01:06 | User Profile
**Andrei Seltsovsky, Moscow's most senior doctor, said last night that 115 of the 117 hostages who died as the siege ended were killed by the gas. Only two died of gunshot wounds. Nearly 650 hostages remained in hospital, 150 of whom were in intensive care, with 45 said to be in "grave condition". Out of the 117 dead, Dr Seltsovsky said only 53 had been identified.
Despite the rising death toll, the Russian government was refusing to reveal details of the gas used in the assault, referring to it only as "a special substance". In the hours immediately after the end of the siege, the official Russian position was that many of the victims had died of heart attacks, shock, or lack of medicine for pre-existing ailments.
Dr Seltsovsky said: "In standard situations, the compound that was used on people does not act as aggressively as it turned out to do. But it was used on people who were in a specific [extreme] situation for more than 50 hours." Moscow's chief anaesthesiologist, Yevgeny Yevdokimov, said he was unable to identify the gas but suggested it was a "narcotic substance similar to a general anaesthetic in surgery". It can paralyse breathing, cardiac and liver functioning, and blood circulation.
According to other sources, the gas, so powerful that it caused the Chechen gunmen to fall unconscious even before they could pull the triggers on their bombs, was developed by the FSB security service. But the agency, the successor to the KGB, is refusing to tell doctors the identity of the gas or provide an antidote. The gas was secretly pumped into the theatre at about 5.30am after two hostages had been killed**
I was listening here on Oklahoma news today. They say the gas was, as Yevdokimov says, a narcotic substance, more specifically an opiate. Anyone who has worked with opiates knows in general that they are very dangerous drugs, even in a controlled medical setting. Their basic hazard, like most anesthetics, is that they depress breathing. Obviously if someone is hit by an overdose of this medicine, the only solution is to apply CPR and get them to an hospital ICU immediately equiped with respiratory aides. I'm not really sure opiates have effective antidotes.
Looks like the KGB (whatever they call themselves now) was just trying to be heavy handed here. They wanted a complete victory, with the Chechens not allowed any possibility of a successful last ditch fight to the death, etc. Whatever, that and their reflexive secrecy, does still strike you as an authoritarian, repressive government.
The nature of the anesthetic also suggests that many of the "gravely ill" in the hospital have brain damage (from prolonged breathing cessation/ oxygen deprivation) and have a poor future prognosis.
Oklahoma news has been reporting on the fate of three of the hostages, an Oklahoma auto worker named Sandy Booker who was there to pick up his Russian fiance and her 13 year old daughter and take her back to the states. The fiance is in the hospital, the daughter is dead, and Booker himself is officially missing, but unofficially a man matching his description has been located in the morgue.
Sounds like a hell of a honeymoon :(
2002-10-29 04:30 | User Profile
Originally posted by Walter Yannis@Oct 28 2002, 08:43 I mean, they dream up this gas thing and pull off a brilliant raid in which just ONE HOSTAGE dies, and then THEY FORGET THE FREEKING ANTIDOTE.
If that really was an opiate derivative then there's probably no antidote to that.
2002-10-29 04:30 | User Profile
Originally posted by Frederick William I@Oct 28 2002, 12:26 You mean, like they can't believe how smart, beautiful, wealthy, and sophisticated we all are? ;)
Yes, something like that :blink:
2002-10-29 04:40 | User Profile
Originally posted by madrussian@Oct 29 2002, 04:30 If that really was an opiate derivative then there's probably no antidote to that.
There's certainly no antidote to oxygen deprivation induced brain damage.
There's a Liberty Forum post on this. They think they know what it was.
[url=http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news_international&Number=296331&page=0&view=&sb=&o=∂=1&vc=1#Post296331] German survivors provide clue to deadly theatre gas[/url]
2002-10-30 23:01 | User Profile
Originally posted by Frederick William I@Oct 28 2002, 12:26 You mean, like they can't believe how smart, beautiful, wealthy, and sophisticated we all are? ;)
One popular term for the US used on a Usenet forum was zhidoamerica :lol:
2002-10-30 23:15 | User Profile
Originally posted by Okiereddust@Oct 29 2002, 01:06 **Looks like the KGB (whatever they call themselves now) was just trying to be heavy handed here. They wanted a complete victory, with the Chechens not allowed any possibility of a successful last ditch fight to the death, etc. Whatever, that and their reflexive secrecy, does still strike you as an authoritarian, repressive government. **
I'm a little more willing to cut the Russians a break on this one. The building was wired to blow. A fight wouldn't have lasted long because one of the terrorists would have triggerred the demolitions, and that would have killed a lot more people still. If a raid was to be done, it had to incapacitate the bad guys, and do it very quick.
Something many people never realize is exactly how tough it is working with chemical weapons. They have to be strong enough to kill the enemy, but not so strong as to kill your side when you take over. That's in more forgiving battlefield conditions. Now move this to an enclosed theatre with hundreds of weakened innocents and scores of strong terrorists, and the calculations become even more difficult. You have to knock out the health terrorists before they can hit the "plunger." That's the number one priority. The innocents suffering from asthma, dehydration and hunger are going to be hurt, maybe die, but the other option--everyone in the theater and possibly more outside--dying in a fiery explosion is even worse. It was an ugly situation and the Russians did what they could.
The bungled part was the Russian government's failure to ask for medical help from either the U.S. or Europe from the start. Had they done so, this problem would have been minimized, or at least they could have said that they did everything humanly possible to preserve innocent life. It was foolish pride that kept them from doing it and, with the Kursk, this is the second time it's cost them dearly.
Of course, considering the amazing incompetence shown by our own government on 9/11 (No one as of yet has been fired!) and recently in Washington, DC with the snipers, we ain't a position to gloat.
Best, P
2002-10-31 05:17 | User Profile
Originally posted by Polichinello@Oct 30 2002, 23:15 I'm a little more willing to cut the Russians a break on this one. The building was wired to blow. A fight wouldn't have lasted long because one of the terrorists would have triggerred the demolitions, and that would have killed a lot more people still. If a raid was to be done, it had to incapacitate the bad guys, and do it very quick.
I realize that hindsight is always 20/20 here.
The bungled part was the Russian government's failure to ask for medical help from either the U.S. or Europe from the start. Had they done so, this problem would have been minimized, or at least they could have said that they did everything humanly possible to preserve innocent life. It was foolish pride that kept them from doing it and, with the Kursk, this is the second time it's cost them dearly.
Here's a little second guessing, for what its worth.
[url=http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readarticle.cgi?101+5064]Breaking: Secret Russian Gas Identified[/url]
**Of course, considering the amazing incompetence shown by our own government on 9/11 (No one as of yet has been fired!) and recently in Washington, DC with the snipers, we ain't a position to gloat.
Best, P**
Doubtless. Reading some of the stories of what happens during terrorists acts in this country (i.e. fighter planes flying around on 9/11 unarmed, Chief Moosehead), makes the Russians look like models of efficiency.
2002-10-31 06:27 | User Profile
Originally posted by Okiereddust@Oct 31 2002, 05:17 **Breaking: Secret Russian Gas Identified[/URL] **
I like the headline: BREAKING RUSSIAN GAS.
I've broken some serious bohunk gas in my day. Never any Russian gas.
Walter
2002-10-31 08:16 | User Profile
Originally posted by Walter Yannis@Oct 31 2002, 06:27 > Originally posted by Okiereddust@Oct 31 2002, 05:17 Breaking: Secret Russian Gas Identified[/URL] **
I like the headline: BREAKING RUSSIAN GAS.
I've broken some serious bohunk gas in my day. Never any Russian gas.
Walter**
Walter, I'm afraid I don't quite get it.
Did A+Bert give you this? :D
2002-10-31 08:28 | User Profile
Originally posted by Walter Yannis@Oct 31 2002, 00:27 **I've broken some serious bohunk gas in my day. Never any Russian gas. **
I guess you've never tried the Pelmeni.
^_^
2002-10-31 11:10 | User Profile
**Of course, considering the amazing incompetence shown by our own government on 9/11 (No one as of yet has been fired!) **
P, that's puzzled me as well. I realize that neos simply don't resign, no matter how disgraced, but the lack of pink slips has been mind-boggling.
It reminds me of a Simpsons episode: the power plant has just suffered a meltdown due to Homer's bungling. As Burns harangues him for his incompetence, Homer whines, "But it's my first day!"....and all is forgiven.
2002-10-31 14:52 | User Profile
Originally posted by il ragno@Oct 31 2002, 11:10 > Of course, considering the amazing incompetence shown by our own government on 9/11 (No one as of yet has been fired!) **
P, that's puzzled me as well. I realize that neos simply don't resign, no matter how disgraced, but the lack of pink slips has been mind-boggling.
It reminds me of a Simpsons episode: the power plant has just suffered a meltdown due to Homer's bungling. As Burns harangues him for his incompetence, Homer whines, "But it's my first day!"....and all is forgiven.**
The lack of pink slips combined with the vastly increased budgets indicates that the intelligence services did NOT FAIL in their missioin; rather, they succeeded brilliantly.
It's just that we don't understand what their real mission was.
We assume that their mission is to protect us from hostile attack, but this assumption is false. Their real mission is to serve the interests of a small, monied elite. And the interests of that small elite were somehow furthered by the 9-11 attacks.
The intelligence services did a great job of coordinating the 9-11 attacks from behind the scenes, just as FDR's Naval Intelligence pulled the strings for the Pearl Harbor attack 60 years previously.
The bureaucrats in the intelligence services weren't fired, and that says something. Far from being disciplined in any way, they were promoted - rewarded with vastly greater powers and sharply increased budgets.
When viewed on the backdrop of all the information that's come out about missed leads, quashed reports, etc., it's clear to me that 9-11 was a Pearl Harbor type of operation.
Walter
2002-10-31 15:14 | User Profile
Originally posted by il ragno@Oct 31 2002, 11:10 > Of course, considering the amazing incompetence shown by our own government on 9/11 (No one as of yet has been fired!) **
P, that's puzzled me as well. I realize that neos simply don't resign, no matter how disgraced, but the lack of pink slips has been mind-boggling.
It reminds me of a Simpsons episode: the power plant has just suffered a meltdown due to Homer's bungling. As Burns harangues him for his incompetence, Homer whines, "But it's my first day!"....and all is forgiven.**
IR,
It's not just the neos that do this; it's a nationwide problem. Liberals are just as bad, if not worse: Clinton and Reno after Waco are just two examples. The Reagan administration did much the same thing after the Beirut bombing. There were a lot of plain, unforgiveable screw-ups in that case, but no one I'm aware of had to pay for it with his or her career (if I'm wrong, could someone correct me here), and I don't remember any non-neocons screaming for resignations then. No one lately is really held responsible for their screw-ups in government.
I only know of one exception: Bob Livingston, who resigned after his affair was revealed in '94.
Best, P
2002-10-31 20:36 | User Profile
Originally posted by Walter Yannis@Oct 31 2002, 14:52 ... The bureaucrats in the intelligence services weren't fired, and that says something. Far from being disciplined in any way, they were promoted - rewarded with vastly greater powers and sharply increased budgets. ...
The fact that the failures of the security agencies gives those agencies more power is an inevitable result of their monopoly position. If a plumber keeps screwing up, he can't get work as a plumber any more. If the gubmint was in charge of plumbing, bad plumbing would lead to a beefing up of the 'Homeland Plumbing Agency'.