← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · Okiereddust
Thread ID: 20884 | Posts: 13 | Started: 2005-11-04
2005-11-04 06:13 | User Profile
Any body here of [URL="http://www.christianexodus.org/index.php?module=PostWrap&page=home"]these guys[/URL]. The TV show tonight said they, politically, are a Constitution Party version of the Libertarian [URL="http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=ll_chat&Number=293814842&page=&view=&sb=&o=&vc=1&t=-1#Post293814842"]Free State Project[/URL].
It also sounds a little bit like the [URL="http://www.originaldissent.com/forums/showpost.php?p=122256&postcount=1"]Pioneer Little Europe[/URL] concept 311inAz was taling about, which I thought sounded sort of like Bo Gritz's Almost Heaven in Idaho.
Its a right-wing Christian movement, which means of course it almost certainly will be almost all white, but at the same time eschew any explicit reference to ethnicity or race or strictures on misogyny, etc. Anyway these guys sound among the most articulate and sensible people of this genre I've seen. Sounds like its worth a look. Wonder what our old friend Heritage Lost in Charleston thinks about em.
2005-11-04 09:04 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Okiereddust]Any body here of [URL="http://www.christianexodus.org/index.php?module=PostWrap&page=home"]these guys[/URL]. The TV show tonight said they, politically, are a Constitution Party version of the Libertarian [URL="http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=ll_chat&Number=293814842&page=&view=&sb=&o=&vc=1&t=-1#Post293814842"]Free State Project[/URL].
It also sounds a little bit like the [URL="http://www.originaldissent.com/forums/showpost.php?p=122256&postcount=1"]Pioneer Little Europe[/URL] concept 311inAz was taling about, which I thought sounded sort of like Bo Gritz's Almost Heaven in Idaho.
Its a right-wing Christian movement, which means of course it almost certainly will be almost all white, but at the same time eschew any explicit reference to ethnicity or race or strictures on misogyny, etc. Anyway these guys sound among the most articulate and sensible people of this genre I've seen. Sounds like its worth a look. Wonder what our old friend Heritage Lost in Charleston thinks about em.[/QUOTE]The Pioneer Little Europe concept is promoted on Stormfront by a fellow from San Francisco posting as "Haman" last time I checked. It has almost no similarities to anything like Bo Gritz's "Almost Heaven" project, since it deliberately eschews the idea of creating isolated communities out in the country or requiring people to "buy in" to some type of land deal. PLE as I understand it is simply WN migration to suitable neighborhoods until such time as the WN types are numerous enough to form a de facto community, in similar manner to how gays "took over" certain neighborhoods in San Francisco, for instance. PLE does not require a governing body, church, or "leader" and is more like a coordinated movement that sort of looks like a non-violent type of "leaderless resistance" where the goal is not to start a violent revolution, but merely to create self-consciously aware White communities, whether they acknowledge the WN label or not.
2005-11-04 10:16 | User Profile
[QUOTE=grep14w]The Pioneer Little Europe concept is promoted on Stormfront by a fellow from San Francisco posting as "Haman" last time I checked. It has almost no similarities to anything like Bo Gritz's "Almost Heaven" project, since it deliberately eschews the idea of creating isolated communities out in the country or requiring people to "buy in" to some type of land deal. PLE as I understand it is simply WN migration to suitable neighborhoods until such time as the WN types are numerous enough to form a de facto community, in similar manner to how gays "took over" certain neighborhoods in San Francisco, for instance. PLE does not require a governing body, church, or "leader" and is more like a coordinated movement that sort of looks like a non-violent type of "leaderless resistance" where the goal is not to start a violent revolution, but merely to create self-consciously aware White communities, whether they acknowledge the WN label or not.[/QUOTE]Well I went through the similarities vs. differences with Amost Heaven in the PLE thread I referenced above.
I'm not sure exactly what it was with Almost Heaven that PLE is so allergic to, maybe it militia type image in rural Idaho. But everybody likes to start afresh and not be burdened with mistakes that were made by others in the past I guess. It will be like close to Almost Heaven realating to the good, far away fom the bad.
Its just not something I've personally been able to get into. But I suppose it might have some good attributes in the right circumstances with the right people.
2005-11-04 10:56 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Okiereddust]Well I went through the similarities vs. differences with Amost Heaven in the PLE thread I referenced above. There are no comments in the OD thread you linked to, and the link to the plefuture website says their host has deleted their account, so their website is gone for the time being.> I'm not sure exactly what it was with Almost Heaven that PLE is so allergic to, maybe it militia type image in rural Idaho. But everybody likes to start afresh and not be burdened with mistakes that were made by others in the past I guess. It will be like close to Almost Heaven realating to the good, far away fom the bad.
Its just not something I've personally been able to get into. But I suppose it might have some good attributes in the right circumstances with the right people.[/QUOTE]Apart from wanting to avoid the "rural armed camp" mentality, as I understand it the PLE wants actual communities, of diverse backgrounds and abilities, not single issue cult compounds. As such, people have to earn livings and have large social and business networks. That is easier to do in cities than it is out in the country. Living in the country has its advantages but it isn't practical for most people, who won't be able to earn a living there. Nor is any rural area far away enough anymore to really be any kind of ultimate protection. Generally the PLE concept is trying to repudiate the notion of "retreating". If you haven't grasped that yet you haven't grasped the PLE concept. Sorry but I can't read what you posted on the plefuture website so I'm just going on what you say in this thread.
2005-11-04 15:21 | User Profile
[QUOTE=grep14w]There are no comments in the OD thread you linked to, .............If you haven't grasped that yet you haven't grasped the PLE concept. Sorry but I can't read what you posted on the plefuture website so I'm just going on what you say in this thread.[/QUOTE] You have to click on the thread at top. But here's the whole thread directly.
[url]http://www.originaldissent.com/forums/showthread.php?p=122256#post122256[/url]
[QUOTE]and the link to the plefuture website says their host has deleted their account, so their website is gone for the time being.Apart from wanting to avoid the "rural armed camp" mentality, as I understand it the PLE wants actual communities, of diverse backgrounds and abilities, not single issue cult compounds. As such, people have to earn livings and have large social and business networks. That is easier to do in cities than it is out in the country. Living in the country has its advantages but it isn't practical for most people, who won't be able to earn a living there. Nor is any rural area far away enough anymore to really be any kind of ultimate protection. Generally the PLE concept is trying to repudiate the notion of "retreating". and the link to the plefuture website says their host has deleted their account, so their website is gone for the time being.Apart from wanting to avoid the "rural armed camp" mentality, as I understand it the PLE wants actual communities, of diverse backgrounds and abilities, not single issue cult compounds. As such, people have to earn livings and have large social and business networks. That is easier to do in cities than it is out in the country. Living in the country has its advantages but it isn't practical for most people, who won't be able to earn a living there. Nor is any rural area far away enough anymore to really be any kind of ultimate protection. Generally the PLE concept is trying to repudiate the notion of "retreating". [/QUOTE]Well it somewhat seemed to me that Gritz's camp had some of these things as an initial goal (diverse backgrounds and abilities, not single issue cult compounds, and others) also hence my comments on the thread. That doesn't mean someone else couldn't do better of course. Of course with even a website gone, sounds like they aren't going to get off the ground.
2005-11-04 15:36 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Okiereddust]You have to click on the thread at top. At top of what? It wasn't any of the links in your first post.
Edit: okay, nevermind. But if you had wanted me to read the thread, you should have linked to it instead of just a single post with a link to another thread on another site. Also, you might have noticed but I was originally a participant on that thread. So you were not exactly exposing me to anything new.
Well it somewhat seemed to me that Gritz's camp had some of these things as an initial goal (diverse backgrounds and abilities, not single issue cult compounds, and others) It was still a land scheme requiring people to buy in - and that's a major problem right there.> also hence my comments on the thread. That doesn't mean someone else couldn't do better of course. As I understand them, the PLE people are trying to do away with this deeply ingrained notion of "retreating" and Bo Gritz's efforts had a strong whiff of "retreat" about them. That's precisely the mentality that PLE is trying to expunge, if I understand their thinking. Also the idea of leaders and promoters (Bo Gritz or anyone) and official schemes and hierarchies is simply a recipe for disaster oft repeated, so PLE tries to avoid such things, not wanting to create any more of the same. Whites need to get out of this defeatist "Camp of the Saints" mentality that "retreating" plays into.> Of course with even a website gone, sounds like they aren't going to get off the ground.[/QUOTE]Probably just their web provider being squeezed by the "anti-hate" police, as per usual. They'll find another host and be back. However the main source of PLE that I'm aware of is Stormfront, unless things have changed since last I studied the matter. The main problem PLE has in going from theory to practice is finding enough whites in a local area to create a critical mass and get people actually doing things rather than merely hanging out on message boards. The internet is good at helping people find like minded folk, but is lousy at encouraging real world action.
2005-11-04 15:55 | User Profile
I just read the thread and am not surprised that in fact I have already posted to it. Okie, I don't think you've really grasped the PLE concept, as demonstrated by your repeated failures to understand the fundamental differences between something like Almost Heaven and PLE. That's not entirely surprising as the PLE is still mostly a work in progress and suffers still from a lack of practical application. However, it is still more constructive than most of the other approaches offered by WN or paleo types.
IMO resitance to PLE or similar proposals breaks down into two categories: misapprehensions about what PLE is, ie, thinking it is just another "retreat" or Branch Davidian compound out in the woods, "white bastion" fantasy or libertarian floating island city, etc....or on the other hand hostility to PLE because it doesn't promise to flatter the fantasies of certain types of people.
What types of fantasy? Fantasies of violent revolution, "day of the rope", machine gun fetishists, Nazi cultists, any and all religious affiliations that have some kind of hankering for Armageddon, the End of the World, or politically oriented types who think if we just start up enough of the right types of organizations, vote for the right people, etc, that somehow we can vote or talk or organize ourselves out of this mess, etc......and of course just anyone at all who is bound and determined that anything that is not 100% done his way, must therefore be opposed. "My way or the highway" types, of whom WN and paleos have far too many already.
WN, paleos, others are simply stuck in this negative, problem-oriented type thinking. They tend to react negatively, unfortunately, to solution oriented thinking, because it does not flatter their habit of negative thinking. The visceral reactions to PLE on that other thread, and on Stormfront, and elsewhere, are very revealing. PLE may be flawed and so on, but it's not intended to be a perfect blueprint to "saving the white race" because no such blueprint is possible. It's intended to be a kick in the ass to get people to start doing things in real life, and to get them free of their negative, problem-oriented thinking.
Also we have a "movement" or movements that are plagued with "leaders" who fear something like PLE because it means whites meeting each other locally in the real world, for social rather than political purposes, which means loss of control of said leaders over their followers.
I've no idea if PLE or something like it can work, but it is far more constructive than most current activism. But I've said all this in the other thread so I won't repeat myself.
2005-11-04 16:43 | User Profile
[QUOTE=grep14w]I just read the thread and am not surprised that in fact I have already posted to it. Okie, I don't think you've really grasped the PLE concept. That's not surprising as the PLE is still mostly a work in progress and suffers still from a lack of practical application. You can say that again. It doesn't even have a website.
[QUOTE]However, it is still more constructive than most of the other approaches offered by WN or paleo types.[/QUOTE]I can see where you're coming from, but on the other hand, this is the strawman argument personified
[QUOTE]IMO resitance to PLE or similar proposals breaks down into two categories: misapprehensions about what PLE is, ie, thinking it is just another "retreat" or Branch Davidian compound out in the woods, "white bastion" fantasy or libertarian floating island city, etc....[/QUOTE]I guess my paleo type viewpoint
or on the other hand hostility to PLE because it doesn't promise to flatter the fantasies of certain types of people.
What types of fantasy? Fantasies of violent revolution, "day of the rope", machine gun fetishists, Nazi cultists, any and all religious affiliations that have some kind of hankering for Armageddon, the End of the World,[/QUOTE]All the WN's, true [QUOTE]or politically oriented types who think if we just start up enough of the right types of organizations, vote for the right people, etc, that somehow we can vote or talk or organize ourselves out of this mess, etc......[/QUOTE]sounds like paleo types like me [QUOTE]againand of course just anyone at all who is bound and determined that anything that is not 100% done his way, must therefore be opposed. "My way or the highway" types, of whom WN and paleos have far too many already.[/QUOTE]And I suppose the PLE are exempt from this categorization? Proof's of the pudding's in the eating, that's al I'm saying
WN, paleos, others are simply stuck in this negative, problem-oriented type thinking. They tend to react negatively, unfortunately, to solution oriented thinking, because it does not flatter their habit of negative thinking. The visceral reactions to PLE on that other thread, and on Stormfront, and elsewhere, are very revealing. PLE may be flawed and so on, but it's not intended to be a perfect blueprint to "saving the white race" because no such blueprint is possible. It's intended to be a kick in the ass to get people to start doing things in real life, and to get them free of their negative, problem-orliented thinking.
I've no idea if PLE or something like it can work, but it is far more constructive than most current activism. But I've said all this in the other thread so I won't repeat myself.[/QUOTE]I don't know about SF, but I'm not sure what "visceral reaction" on our OD thread you were talking about. Maybe I'm just too much in the habit of "negative thinking". Anyway that other thread's still there, if you have anything to add.
2005-11-04 16:57 | User Profile
If you didn't notice the visceral reactions, you weren't looking. I wasn't talking about you, btw. Referring more to the nazi types, the gun fetishists and those longing for violent revolution, both on OD and on Stormfront.
At this point we are talking past each other, however. If you don't grasp the distinction between Almost Heaven and PLE, you simply aren't trying. That's okay; if you were really interested in the topic you'd be talking to the PLE people, not hanging out here. They are still over at Stormfront, regardless of what happened to that other website.
2005-11-04 17:15 | User Profile
[QUOTE=grep14w]If you didn't notice the visceral reactions, you weren't looking. I wasn't talking about you, btw. Referring more to the nazi types, the gun fetishists and those longing for violent revolution, both on OD and on Stormfront. OK. I'm well aware of course of the WN types, but you do have some criticism for the paleo's also. Which is fine, but I like to clarify
[QUOTE]At this point we are talking past each other, however. If you don't grasp the distinction between Almost Heaven and PLE, you simply aren't trying.[/QUOTE]I don't fully grasp it. I was thinking that perhaps part of the problem is that you guys are trying to distinguish PLE as you envision it vs. Almost Heaven as it turned out in reality. Not a perfect comparison.
However one doesn't want to be too pessimistic. Sometimes you aren't sure why something really didn't function the way it was intended and you basically just have to try over, when all is said and done.
That's okay; if you were really interested in the topic you'd be talking to the PLE people, not hanging out here. They are still over at Stormfront, regardless of what happened to that other website.[/QUOTE]It's not my perfect cup of tea perhaps in my situation now. However Stormfront is not the best place to get non-visceral WN types, even if I was inclined to post regularly and freely there and they were inclined to let me do so.
If these guys can't maintain a website, I seriously doubt they can get the "critical mass" in the non-cyber world they say is their goal.
2005-11-06 08:06 | User Profile
Grep, Okie The movement that PLE sounds most like is the mormons. (yeah, I know) Look at what they did to Utah, then look at Phoenix, now parts of Colorado. Remember the 'Matrix'? When Mr. Smith is telling Morpheus how humanity is like a virus? He describes the mormons perfectly. They have a PLAN. They got money. They target areas. They invade. They don't have to be armed. And they're definitely not retreating.
Maybe PLE, or someone like them, could get some starter ideas from them. What they are doing is definitely working.
2005-11-06 10:16 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Gregor]Grep, Okie The movement that PLE sounds most like is the mormons. (yeah, I know) Look at what they did to Utah, then look at Phoenix, now parts of Colorado. Remember the 'Matrix'? When Mr. Smith is telling Morpheus how humanity is like a virus? He describes the mormons perfectly. They have a PLAN. They got money. They target areas. They invade. They don't have to be armed. And they're definitely not retreating.
Maybe PLE, or someone like them, could get some starter ideas from them. What they are doing is definitely working.[/QUOTE]Well the jews also had a plan: of course whose to say we can't "mirror-image" (MacDonald's phrase) some of their successful strategies.
Actually I never saw "The Matrix". The mormons sort of have an organizational plan, but they also have certain ideological philosophical weaknesses. Now if Christian Exodus could learn/is learning from them, I suppose that's not all bad. I think PLE could possibly learn from Christian Exodus in a number of ways.
2005-11-06 11:35 | User Profile
[quote=Okiereddust]Well the jews also had a plan: of course whose to say we can't "mirror-image" (MacDonald's phrase) some of their successful strategies.
Actually I never saw "The Matrix". The mormons sort of have an organizational plan, but they also have certain ideological philosophical weaknesses. Now if Christian Exodus could learn/is learning from them, I suppose that's not all bad. I think PLE could possibly learn from Christian Exodus in a number of ways.
Mirror image. I like that.
You should see the Matrix. (Just the 1st one, they ran out of ideas for the sequels) Good sci-fi, great us vs. them story, wonderful source for polemics. Notice the names they use "Neo", "Zion", "Nebuchadnezzar" It almost seems like someone tried to make it an allegory, but conflated the symbols.
Have to check out the CE links more to form decent opinion.