← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · Gabrielle
Thread ID: 20787 | Posts: 21 | Started: 2005-10-28
2005-10-28 12:09 | User Profile
Center for Individual Freedom
Dear Friend:
Wouldn't you go absolutely ballistic if you read the following headlines?
"SENATORS VOTE 90-9 TO AID TERRORISTS"
or
"U.S. SENATE SUPPORTS RIGHT OF TERRORISTS TO BOMB U.S. TARGETS"
or
"SENATORS SAY U.S. TROOPS ARE ?BARBARIC' AND ?INHUMANE'"
Yet these headlines describe what the U.S. Senate did just days ago!
The GOP-controlled Senate added an amendment to the $440-billion military spending bill that would extend to spies, terrorists, and Islamic jihadists the same rights U.S. citizens enjoy under the Constitution.
In other words, our military interrogators can no longer question suspected suicide bombers and murderers of women and children without the ACLU looking over their shoulder -- ready to haul some poor enlisted man into court just because he yelled at a terrorist or hurt a terrorist's feelings.
If the Senate had done such a despicable thing during World War II, the American people would have stormed the Capitol, tarred and feathered all who voted for such treachery, and ridden them out of town on a rail.
This evil, suicidal bill - if implemented - would expose Americans to the greatest danger in the history of our nation: The planting of explosives on our subways. Suicide bombers killing American women and children. Airline hijackings. Assassinations.
Do you realize that not a single terrorist attack has occurred on American soil since 9/11 - despite the dark, dire predictions of the political know-it-alls.
You know why? Because our worldwide intelligence operation has discovered and exposed plot after plot to kill Americans, both abroad and at home.
You may be alive today because some interrogator wasn't too fastidious about how he got his information from some proud, smirking jihadist.
Use the hyperlink below to send your 20 urgent Blast Fax messages to President Bush and EACH of the Members of the Senate Conference Committee. Tell them to have the political courage to put the lives of innocent Americans above the interests of third world terrorists, thugs and dictators and kill this McCain amendment in committee.
And at the same time, send this urgent Blast Fax message to President Bush. Since he has already promised to VETO this legislation, DEMAND that he do so if Congress fails to act in the interests of the American people.
[url]http://www.cfiflistmanager.org/terrornmii.html[/url]
AOL Members Use This Hyperlink
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These Blast Faxes are NOT ineffective emails! They are NOT petitions! Each of these 20 elected leaders will receive a personalized fax from you! That's 20 faxes!
But more importantly, when these 20 legislators receive thousands of faxes from concerned Americans -- they will take notice! Please take action today!
The McCain Amendment -- SA 1977 -- Says The Following...
"No individual in the custody or under the physical control of the United States Government, regardless of nationality or physical location, shall be subject to cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment." [emphasis added]
No cruel or inhuman treatment... that sounds reasonable... or does it?
But the phrase "degrading treatment" - which could have been invented by Amnesty International -- is so vague and full of holes you could drive a Hummer through it.
Solitary confinement, harsh language, ridicule, mild threats, good-cop-bad-cop -- the Senate wants to outlaw all of these standard questioning techniques and restrict interrogators to the etiquette of a ladies' lawn party.
These terrorists are butchering women and children all over the globe -- as well as launching sneak attacks on our troops - and we're supposed to walk on egg shells when we try to find out which Americans they intend to kill next?
Exactly what are our troops suppose to do when questioning these terrorist thugs in an attempt to save American lives?
"Pretty please Mr. terrorist... I beg you...could you please tell us the details of your NEXT attack on innocent Americans?"
That's about the size of it folks. After all, we will now have to be extra careful not to do ANYTHING THAT WOULD DEGRADE OR INSULT THESE KILLERS!
The U.S. Senate hasn't gotten the message: We're at war with fanatics who hate Americans.
These jihadists are willing to die for their faith, and we aren't even willing to be ill-mannered to protect our freedom.
Use the hyperlink below to send your 20 urgent Blast Fax messages to President Bush and EACH of the Members of the Senate Conference Committee. Tell them to have the political courage to put the lives of innocent Americans above the interests of third world terrorists, thugs and dictators and kill this McCain amendment in committee.
And at the same time, send this urgent Blast Fax message to President Bush. Since he has already promised to VETO this legislation, DEMAND that he do so if Congress fails to act in the interests of the American people.
[url]http://www.cfiflistmanager.org/terrornmii.html[/url]
AOL Members Use This Hyperlink
If the above hyperlink does not function, please copy and paste it into the address bar of your browser.
These Blast Faxes are NOT ineffective emails! They are NOT petitions! Each of these 20 elected leaders will receive a personalized fax from you! That's 20 faxes!
But more importantly, when these 20 legislators receive thousands of faxes from concerned Americans -- they will take notice! Please take action today!
Here Are Some Terrorist Attacks That American Intelligence Units Have Discovered And Thwarted.
In mid-2002, U.S. agents uncovered a plot to hit targets on the East Coast. The plotters intended to use hijacked airplanes. By the way, one of the plotters of this caper was also involved in planning 9/11.
In May of 2002, the U.S. busted a plot to bomb U.S. apartment buildings. Jose Padilla, one of the plotters, even pushed for exploding a "dirty bomb" inside the U.S. A dirty bomb is filled with conventional explosives and radioactive materials.
In addition to these plots to attack us on our home soil, the U.S. helped to uncover and thwart a number of major plots throughout the world. For example:
A 2003 plot to attack London's Heathrow Airport, using hijacked airliners.
At least two plots in 2004 to blow up targets in Britain - strategies designed specifically to kill civilians.
At least two plots to attack ships in the Arabian Gulf and the Straits of Hormuz.
No one knows how many hundreds, if not thousands, of lives have been saved by the interrogation methods used by U.S. intelligence units, military and otherwise.
Do you want them to stop what they're doing and take lessons on prison manners from a bunch of POLITICIANS?
Use the hyperlink below to send your 20 urgent Blast Fax messages to President Bush and EACH of the Members of the Senate Conference Committee. Tell them to have the political courage to put the lives of innocent Americans above the interests of third world terrorists, thugs and dictators and kill this McCain amendment in committee.
And at the same time, send this urgent Blast Fax message to President Bush. Since he has already promised to VETO this legislation, DEMAND that he do so if Congress fails to act in the interests of the American people.
[url]http://www.cfiflistmanager.org/terrornmii.html[/url]
AOL Members Use This Hyperlink
If the above hyperlink does not function, please copy and paste it into the address bar of your browser.
These Blast Faxes are NOT ineffective emails! They are NOT petitions! Each of these 20 elected leaders will receive a personalized fax from you! That's 20 faxes!
But more importantly, when these 20 legislators receive thousands of faxes from concerned Americans -- they will take notice! Please take action today!
What Do We Really Mean By Degrading Treatment
Underlying this vile and contemptible amendment is the same assumption that the Supreme Court used in recent cases: the looming supremacy of international law...
Let's look at this ghastly amendment one more time...
SEC. __. PROHIBITION ON CRUEL, INHUMAN, OR DEGRADING TREATMENT OR PUNISHMENT OF PERSONS UNDER CUSTODY OR CONTROL OF THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT.
(a) In General.--No individual in the custody or under the physical control of the United States Government, regardless of nationality or physical location, shall be subject to cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment. [emphasis added]
(b) Construction.--Nothing in this section shall be construed to impose any geographical limitation on the applicability of the prohibition against cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment under this section. [emphasis added]
(c) Limitation on Supersedure.--The provisions of this section shall not be superseded, except by a provision of law enacted after the date of the enactment of this Act which specifically repeals, modifies, or supersedes the provisions of this section.
(d) Cruel, Inhuman, or Degrading Treatment or Punishment Defined.--In this section, the term "cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment'' means the cruel, unusual, and inhumane treatment or punishment prohibited by the Fifth, Eighth, and Fourteenth Amendments to the Constitution of the United States, as defined in the United States Reservations, Declarations and Understandings to the United Nations Convention Against Torture and Other Forms of Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment done at New York, December 10, 1984. [emphasis added]
The words "cruel [and] unusual" are taken right out of the 8th Amendment - "Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted" -- thereby conferring on a bunch of terrorists the CONSTITUTIONAL rights of U.S. citizenship.
But "degrading treatment" is a phrase lifted from a document drafted by the United Nations.
Henceforth international terrorists throughout the world have all the rights of accused criminals in the United States. And an additional right - freedom from "degrading treatment" - which comes from the U.N., an organization also known as Hate America International.
We can't tolerate this surrender to Kofi Annan's gang, a cowardly act designed to undercut the self-preservation of Americans under international attack.
Use the hyperlink below to send your 20 urgent Blast Fax messages to President Bush and EACH of the Members of the Senate Conference Committee. Tell them to have the political courage to put the lives of innocent Americans above the interests of third world terrorists, thugs and dictators and kill this McCain amendment in committee.
And at the same time, send this urgent Blast Fax message to President Bush. Since he has already promised to VETO this legislation, DEMAND that he do so if Congress fails to act in the interests of the American people.
[url]http://www.cfiflistmanager.org/terrornmii.html[/url]
AOL Members Use This Hyperlink
If the above hyperlink does not function, please copy and paste it into the address bar of your browser.
These Blast Faxes are NOT ineffective emails! They are NOT petitions! Each of these 20 elected leaders will receive a personalized fax from you! That's 20 faxes!
But more importantly, when these 20 legislators receive thousands of faxes from concerned Americans -- they will take notice! Please take action today!
Let's Clear Up A Few Things Right Now
We don't torture prisoners. We don't blindfold them, threaten them with execution, and televise their pathetic pleas for life.
We don't condone cruel and unusual punishments. We don't lop off prisoners' heads in front of TV cameras or on the world wide web.
With few exceptions, we treat prisoners as humanely as any enemy has ever treated its enemies. Ask the handful of U.S. troops who survived captivity how the terrorists treated them.
Abu-Gharib was the exception -- not the rule -- and mere child's play in comparison to how these terrorists, murderers and thugs treat our people -- or even their own people for that matter.
The only atrocities going on at Guantanamo Bay are the atrocities that these murderers and thugs who are being detained are heaping upon the fine U.S. soldiers assigned to guard them.
We give these terrorists their own Korans, prayer rugs, clean living conditions, indoor plumbing and three square meals a day... many of them NEVER had it so good.
Of course that has not stopped anti-America members of our own media from literally beating up on our brave men and women in uniform -- looking for isolated examples of "abuse" -- and -- in many cases -- simply making them up.
These facts did not stop the liberal Senator from Illinois -- Dick Durbin -- from falsely comparing our brave men and women in uniform to NAZIs.
However... perhaps you now see why our GOP-lead Senate voted for this ghastly amendment?
Simply put, they did not want to be skewered by members of the anti-American press who would have -- without a doubt -- FALSELY reported opposition to this dastardly amendment as support of torture.
And that -- dear friend -- is cowardice, pure and simple!
While our troops risk their lives on the battlefield half-way around the world -- these spineless Senators would not even risk a little bad-mouthing from a biased media!
It's so sick... it's disgusting!
McCain's amendment is a nasty, politically motivated slur on the integrity of our armed forces, and a gross insult to the American people.
What the Senate did two weeks ago must be undone this week.
Take action now!
Use the hyperlink below to send your 20 urgent Blast Fax messages to President Bush and EACH of the Members of the Senate Conference Committee. Tell them to have the political courage to put the lives of innocent Americans above the interests of third world terrorists, thugs and dictators and kill this McCain amendment in committee.
And at the same time, send this urgent Blast Fax message to President Bush. Since he has already promised to VETO this legislation, DEMAND that he do so if Congress fails to act in the interests of the American people.
[url]http://www.cfiflistmanager.org/terrornmii.html[/url]
AOL Members Use This Hyperlink
If the above hyperlink does not function, please copy and paste it into the address bar of your browser.
These Blast Faxes are NOT ineffective emails! They are NOT petitions! Each of these 20 elected leaders will receive a personalized fax from you! That's 20 faxes!
But more importantly, when these 20 legislators receive thousands of faxes from concerned Americans -- they will take notice! Please take action today!
Yours In Freedom,
Jeff Mazzella President [url]www.cfif.org[/url]
NewsMax.com
2005-10-28 13:12 | User Profile
While you're at it, Bush supporters, make sure you go by Limbaugh's website and order a load of "Club Gitmo" gear (and make Rush more money by showing your ass). Show that you want the US to act just like the Israelis. [url]https://members.premiereinteractive.com/store/28566/41862_1.html[/url]
2005-10-28 16:30 | User Profile
In other words, our military interrogators can no longer question suspected suicide bombers and murderers of women and children without the ACLU looking over their shoulder -- ready to haul some poor enlisted man into court just because he yelled at a terrorist or hurt a terrorist's feelings. Our poor little military interrogators...I feel so sorry for them if they can't legally torture people. That must make their jobs sooo boring.... :rolleyes:
By the way, the key word above is in bold: suspected. Some of us still believe in the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights. In particular, some of us still believe that all men -- not just US citizens, but ALL people -- have certain inalienable rights. "Innocent until proven guilty" is a nice concept, too, though it gets in the way of fascists' work.
A nation that sanctions torture doesn't deserve to survive. The Senate in this case did the right thing.
2005-10-28 16:34 | User Profile
[QUOTE]...ready to haul some poor enlisted man into court...[/QUOTE] Let's haul in their superiors who sanction such behavior as well. I love how these clowns try their version of the lower lip biting.
2005-10-28 16:40 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Sertorius]Let's haul in their superiors who sanction such behavior as well. I love how these clowns try their version of the lower lip biting.[/QUOTE]Exactly. Though the doofus Charles Graners of the world shouldn't get off scot-free, those who order prisoner abuse should take the lion's share of the blame. And that goes for civilian officials (e.g., CIA) as well as military officers.
2005-10-28 16:44 | User Profile
[quote=Angler] In particular, some of us still believe that all men -- not just US citizens, but ALL people -- have certain inalienable rights.
Exactly, and those rights are endowed by the Creator, NOT the government, but our atheistic and apostate socialists (that includes Jorge Bush) do not believe this. For them all belongs to government and we get the scraps they "let" us have.
We ran into this with our CPS case a couple years ago where we were told flat out that "our" children are only "ours" at the sufferance of the State (the ones they really belong to) that allows us to keep them.
The same mindset is at work regarding where our rights come from. At least under a monarchy we could deal with a man (maybe even one with a conscience) instead of a million soulless bureaucrats locked in an oppressive mob mentality. We have become the Soviet Union West. The Republic is long dead.
2005-10-28 19:52 | User Profile
[quote=Angler]By the way, the key word above is in bold: [B]suspected[/B]. Some of us still believe in the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights. In particular, some of us still believe that all men -- not just US citizens, but ALL people -- have certain inalienable rights. "Innocent until proven guilty" is a nice concept, too, though it gets in the way of fascists' work.
A nation that sanctions torture doesn't deserve to survive. The Senate in this case did the right thing.
Very well put. A nation based on freedom and liberty can't be torturing people, or we destroy the soul of who we are.
2005-10-29 12:54 | User Profile
Sorry folks, I got to question this one. For those of you that are against torture, would you feel the same way if the perp was possibly planning a dirty bomb in your town and YOUR families lives were at stake ?
My main concern here with this kind of nonsense is where our military efforts are directed, not whether Ahmed or Kumar was insulted, had his toenails pulled off or was made to kiss a pig.
Unfortuneatly, as this country becomes more brown with each passing day, the question of "who is a terrorist" will be asked here in the states as well. Anyone opposed to diversity, immigration etc will get put in the same category as the dune-coon terrorists.
War is a mean and nasty business. This legislation sounds more like the result of a nation that has lost its identiy and now must treat everyone as "equals", regardless of nation of origin or race. Trying to be all things to everyone wont work.
Instead of summarily rounding up and deporting muslims, mexicans, africans etc, we must now make sure that if one is caught doing something, we must make sure they arent offended or treated bad.
:blink:
2005-10-29 13:18 | User Profile
Gabrielle, you need a morality check.
2005-10-29 13:33 | User Profile
[QUOTE=JoseyWales]Sorry folks, I got to question this one. For those of you that are against torture, would you feel the same way if the perp was possibly planning a dirty bomb in your town and YOUR families lives were at stake ?
How I feel? Laws should not be made on feelings, especially when there are inflamatory elements to those feelings. 90% of the people tortured would not be perps planning terrorist attacks, but people with no intentions of terrorism. Josey, how would you feel about being tortured under the suspected belief that you might be planning to attack foreign troops occupying your country?
People who use torture are the "bad guys." And, bad guys don't bring anyone safety, peace, or freedom. The torture by Americans against Iraqis has undeniably contributed to American deaths by increasing the hostility of Iraqis toward Americans.
I'd prefer to be blown up by a terrorist than to cease to be good.
Unfortuneatly, as this country becomes more brown with each passing day, the question of "who is a terrorist" will be asked here in the states as well. Anyone opposed to diversity, immigration etc will get put in the same category as the dune-coon terrorists.
Yes, do you want to be tortured for opposing immigration?
War is a mean and nasty business. This legislation sounds more like the result of a nation that has lost its identiy and now must treat everyone as "equals", regardless of nation of origin or race.
If President Bush hadn't pissed on international agreements, civilized standards of treatment of prisoners, and even denied American citizens protections of the Constitution, this legislation would not have been created.
Instead of summarily rounding up and deporting muslims, mexicans, africans etc, we must now make sure that if one is caught doing something, we must make sure they arent offended or treated bad.
There's nothing in this law that prevents non-Americans from being deported or barred from entry in the first place. Also, this new law won't have any impact on how illegal aliens are treated.
2005-10-29 15:14 | User Profile
No, I dont want to be tortured for opposing immigration, nor my do I want my neighbors or family tortured for doing the same. However, im not above having kumar's toenails or whiskers pulled out to get information about something nasty he is doing or planning. It doesnt need to be splashed on the evening news either.
Dual standards ? You bet.
2005-10-31 15:47 | User Profile
Got to go with Josey on this one. No one is suggesting that no standards be applied. But McCain and the ACLU want to ban loud music and lack of sleep as methods of coercion. Lets face it, what the US did at Abu Grabe is nothing compared to true torture. The poor little terrorists were humiliated. I personally am crying a river. This bill goes too far. Bad politically correct reaction, just like hate crime laws.
2005-10-31 15:55 | User Profile
Jefferson,
I would think that making someone stand on top of a MRE box with wires hooked to his genitals and being told that if he falls off the box that he would be electrocuted constitutes psychological torture. I don't accept Alan Dershowitz's argument on this.
2005-10-31 16:40 | User Profile
[QUOTE]Do you realize that not a single terrorist attack has occurred on American soil since 9/11 - despite the dark, dire predictions of the political know-it-alls.[/QUOTE]
More Jewspeak. The last alleged "foreign attack" on US soil was in 1993 on the WTC. 8 years later, on 9/11/01, another "foreign attack" took place. So, in 4 years no terror attacks have happened on US soil, but with US fighting aggressive wars on Israel's behalf in the Middle East, the US has made certain that more attacks on her soil will take place in the future. Also, Americans are told "we're fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them here" as they submit to security checks and snooping and color coded alerts because we're so much safer.
Such idiocy is sure to have consequences.
2005-10-31 17:13 | User Profile
[QUOTE=xmetalhead] but with US fighting aggressive wars on Israel's behalf in the Middle East, the US has made certain that more attacks on her soil will take place in the future.
Playing empire builder is a sure way to go broke and invite a cultural/social decline. Massive deportations and a lockdown of immigration to only whites of european decent would go along way toward eliminating the chances of further attack. Not really possible anymore with a multi-ethnic empire such as we have now.
Also, Americans are told "we're fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them here" as they submit to security checks and snooping and color coded alerts because we're so much safer. Such idiocy is sure to have consequences.[/QUOTE] The only ones i see protesting on the streets are the jesse jacksons, the hippies and the queers. John Q Public grumbles a bit, then heads off to work or flips the channel. However, there are signs that this nonsense is clearly having an effect on W's political base of support.
2005-10-31 17:28 | User Profile
[QUOTE=jeffersonian]Got to go with Josey on this one. No one is suggesting that no standards be applied. But McCain and the ACLU want to ban loud music and lack of sleep as methods of coercion. Lets face it, what the US did at Abu Grabe is nothing compared to true torture. The poor little terrorists were humiliated. I personally am crying a river. This bill goes too far. Bad politically correct reaction, just like hate crime laws.[/QUOTE]
How is it that you, me, or the US military knows for certain that the incarcerated person is or was a tried and true hardcore terrorist? Are you advocating a policy of "torture until proven innocent"? Under International Law, resistance to occupation is acceptable. Why are Iraqis fighting the belligerent, aggressive and deadly US occupation worthy of torture?
The US practice of torture is certainly getting more Americans killed and will continue to get Americans killed. The insurgents are going to fight more fiercely to the death and take as many Americans with him as they can, instead of possibly joining the political process.
Torture is a dead end policy for America.
2005-10-31 18:53 | User Profile
xmetalhead - how nice do think the russians are to chetchyans they suspect are up to something ? think they give a hoot about international law ?
My point is that the military is like a loaded firearm or big mean ugly dog. When you turn that dog loose or start shooting, stuff is gonna break. Thats what a military is supposed to do. Its not that we are being too mean and nasty to the arabs, its that we are being too mean and nasty to the well being of the US soldiers and the coffers of the US treasury for the benefit of the israelis and the halliburtons. To add insult to injury, W uses the excuse that Iraq has violated UN resolution xyz123 and abc123 as part of his justification. Excuse me, but i dont give a flip about the UN.
In otherwords, I put the blame not on the military for this mess, but on the idiots that sent them over there and keep them there.
2005-10-31 19:29 | User Profile
This whole torture issue reminds me of the stories about the torture of German POW's after WWII. When you kick a man in the groin until his testicles are damaged beyond repair, what is the value of any resultant "confession". But this is one of sources of information about the sacred "six million" ( oiy vey, you must worship this story forever ).
This use of torture on German POW's is one of the main reasons that I no longer believe in the "six million" nonsense. It destroys the credibility of the accusers in my book.
2005-10-31 19:46 | User Profile
Let's say some long-haired, weirdo-looking stranger drifts into town one day and starts hanging around the local pool hall, doing nothing per se, but certainly looking suspicious. Local sheriff picks the guy up and takes him back to the station for loitering or whatever, but really wants to see who the guy is and why he's in town in the first place. The guy won't talk and is a bit hostile, so the sheriff has to make him a little bit uncomfortable in order to show him who is boss in that town and that they don't cotton to uppity drifters hangin' 'round these parts.
I can't say I have much of a problem with that as long as the sheriff is part of my community and is truly looking out for our interests. Those types of situations, things don't always go by the book and the rules have to be bent a little. As long as they're being bent in the direction of my family and community's interest, I'm more than willing to look the other way.
2005-10-31 19:47 | User Profile
[QUOTE=jeffersonian]The poor little terrorists were humiliated. I personally am crying a river. This bill goes too far. Bad politically correct reaction, just like hate crime laws.[/QUOTE]
Do you think you're in the Seah Hannity forum.
2005-10-31 20:16 | User Profile
Tex,
I would agree with you in the situation you describe where a little "sweating" & sleep deprivasion i.e. the "good cop / bad cop" routine would most likely get the desired results. What I would never support is physical violence by those in a position of authority over those in custody.
In regard to the troubles in the middle east, would we even be over there if we had an America First foreign policy as advocated by our founding fathers?
Unless we divorce ourselves from "That shitty little country, Israel", I fear more of the same in the future and the scary part is that sooner or later these practices will become the policies of our out of control Fedgov on the home front as well.