← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · confederate_commando
Thread ID: 20702 | Posts: 6 | Started: 2005-10-20
2005-10-20 02:57 | User Profile
Spain orders arrest of Us troops
The incident was a shocking end to the war for journalists A Spanish judge has issued an international arrest order for three US soldiers over the shelling of a Baghdad hotel that killed a cameraman. Judge Santiago Pedraz issued the warrant for Sgt Shawn Gibson, Capt Philip Wolford and Lt Col Philip de Camp, of the Us 3rd Infantry Division. Jose Couso, of Spanish TV network Telecinco, died in April 2003 when a Us tank fired on the Palestine Hotel. Reuters news agency cameraman Taras Protsyuk, a Ukrainian, was also killed. The National Court agreed to consider filing criminal charges against three members of the tank crew two years ago, acting on a request from Mr Couso's family.
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[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4357684.stm[/url]
2005-10-20 03:40 | User Profile
Journalists are not accorded a guaranteed immunity versus the fortunes of war. That man was covering a shooting war. Ernie Pyle, likewise, was covering a shooting war.
What a load of crap.
AE
[quote=confederate_commando]Spain orders arrest of Us troops
The incident was a shocking end to the war for journalists A Spanish judge has issued an international arrest order for three US soldiers over the shelling of a Baghdad hotel that killed a cameraman. Judge Santiago Pedraz issued the warrant for Sgt Shawn Gibson, Capt Philip Wolford and Lt Col Philip de Camp, of the Us 3rd Infantry Division. Jose Couso, of Spanish TV network Telecinco, died in April 2003 when a Us tank fired on the Palestine Hotel. Reuters news agency cameraman Taras Protsyuk, a Ukrainian, was also killed. The National Court agreed to consider filing criminal charges against three members of the tank crew two years ago, acting on a request from Mr Couso's family.
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[URL="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4357684.stm"]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4357684.stm[/URL]
2005-10-20 05:18 | User Profile
It's understandable that mistakes will happen in war, and honest mistakes shouldn't be punished (especially if committed under fire). But that doesn't mean an attitude of "anything goes" should be taken when it comes to soldiers. Genuine negligence regarding the safety of civilians should be punished just as would negligence in regards to the safety of one's own comrades.
Were the tank soldiers negligent in this case? I don't know. The details are far from clear. At first thought, it does seem out of line to fire a tank shell at a hotel where you know innocent civilians are staying because you think someone's firing (a rifle?) at you. Rifle fire obviously isn't going to penetrate a tank. But maybe these soldiers thought they saw someone preparing to shoot an RPG at them. Who knows? In any case, it's unfortunate that it happened.
2005-10-21 00:21 | User Profile
[quote=Angler] Who knows? In any case, it's unfortunate that it happened.
War is chaos, and the attempt to present is as anything other than it is, particularly in hindsight, is both intellectually dishonest, and in the case of these Spanish twits, a blatant act of political attack along the lines of the ICC crap over a zero defects/lawsuit standard for peacekeepers, etc.
Put another way, in war, stuff happens. I will say again, journalists are not accorded extraodinary privilege, nor protection, when covering combat in a combat environment.
AE
2005-10-21 04:43 | User Profile
AE,
I agree that journalists shouldn't go into a war zone expecting to be immune from possible harm. No argument there.
But here's a hypothetical for you: Let's say a jet pilot accidentally drops a 500-lb bomb on his own troops due to willful carelessness on his part. Should he be punished for negligence? Those dead troops knew they could be put in harm's way when they joined the service. Does that excuse what the pilot did?
I'd say definitely not. And the situation is no different if it's a journalist or other civilian who is negligently killed.
Again, I'm not saying that anyone was necessarily careless or negligent in the Spanish situation. But if someone was, then he should pay for it.
2005-10-24 22:10 | User Profile
[quote=Angler]AE,
I agree that journalists shouldn't go into a war zone expecting to be immune from possible harm. No argument there.
But here's a hypothetical for you: Let's say a jet pilot accidentally drops a 500-lb bomb on his own troops due to willful carelessness on his part. Should he be punished for negligence?
Again, I'm not saying that anyone was necessarily careless or negligent in the Spanish situation. But if someone was, then he should pay for it.
The Spanish assume culpability, but can't prove it. So, they play the political game. This is not a new approach.
Should a pilot be hammered for careless expenditure of bombs?
Should don't quite cover it. He will at least go to court martial, as the guys who bombed the Canucks in Afghanistan did. A conviction may or may not happen, courts-martial being what they are. I am familiar with a couple of CAS cases last year where considerable time was spent (wasted???) trying to blame pilots, or the ground FACS, or the ground commnander calling for fire, for bombs being a bit off target.
FWIW: pK for modern bombs (probability of hit) is less than 100%. Don't listen to the Silver Bullet clowns, nothing purchased under minimum bid works 100% of the time. Even the "PGM's" like LGB's and JDAM have things can go wrong, guidance fins that can stick or get hung up, arming swithces that short, fuses the run amok. Coordinates are sometimes passed wrong between ground and air, et cetera, et cetera. In war, there is always friction, and Murphy's Law reigns supreme. :confused:
Carelessness, however, when it can be shown, is punishable by the UCMJ. In this day and age of war covered like a sports event, such carelessness is pursued with a vigor that would do a homicide detective proud. (Makes you wonder even more about how the fratricide bit with Pat Tillman was handled, doesn't it?) There are a bunch of folks who sit around looking for warriors, on the land and in the air, to fry for making a mistake. Folks in uniform, and even more not in unifoem. :dry: 'Nuff said.
AE