← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · JoseyWales
Thread ID: 20682 | Posts: 9 | Started: 2005-10-18
2005-10-18 13:17 | User Profile
[url]http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46879[/url]
2005-10-24 15:57 | User Profile
I mean, do you have 1st hand knowledge of this movement, or was that just some interesting talk piece you put up?
2005-10-24 17:19 | User Profile
The old denominations which use to enjoy 95% of the population have made themselves irrelevant with thier modern liberalism. They promote the very values that cause people to choose not to be Christian. Their style also does not attracted those looking for feel-good, hip churches.
I see no evidence or reason to believe that home churches, or whatever it is Dr. George Barna is talking about, has a big future. In fact, the one article alone makes Barna look like a nut. And, how is it that Barna can make such a powerful case but none of that force leaks through to the article?
The old denominations are in free-fall. Newer, morally more conservative, more casual denominations are picking up some of the refugees. But, over the last several decades, America has been becoming less Christian. The media and the goverment are decidedly hostile to Christianity. And, most of the "Christian community" shares the guilt.
2005-10-24 17:40 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Gregor]I mean, do you have 1st hand knowledge of this movement, or was that just some interesting talk piece you put up?[/QUOTE]
Nope, not me. Just found the article interesting.
2005-10-24 18:45 | User Profile
[QUOTE=JoseyWales][url]http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46879[/url][/QUOTE]
Dr. George Barna is the most quoted Christian authority in America, and this week he has released a brief bombshell of a book, "Revolution" (Tyndale House), that announces the impending arrival of a world you will hardly recognize.
For 21 years, Barna's huge audience has been the traditional, institutional church leaders of all denominations. After they finish reading "Revolution," that audience may all fit into the back seat of a Corvette.
The cause of Barna's impending downsizing? He tells the truth ââ¬â eloquently, fearlessly and with the backing of roomfuls of data. Nobody really tries to argue with Barna's numbers. The research and statistics behind his 36 books would sink a modest-sized oil tanker.
The incredible shrinking U.S. church
The scenario Barna foresees will cause a rash of strokes among many a pastor and denominational official. Briefly, it is this:
By 2025, traditional, churchgoing Christians will comprise only 30-35 percent of all U.S. Christians. The other 65-70 percent will be a wild, improbable mix of fire-breathing, activist Christians who are unwilling to settle for anything less than high-commitment, close-friendship networks of believers. These people may seldom or never darken the sacred doorways of steeple-topped buildings. Barna calls them the Revolutionaries.
If you harbor any feelings that Barna may be wrong, you will find them melting away rapidly as you read his fascinating, proleptic history of the next 20 years (which I personally feel may unfold in just 10-15 years). "Revolution" reverberates with head-nodding truth.
First, let's get the "bad" news over with: If you grew up in the same grand old Protestant church I did, pause a moment to put your hat over your heart. It's all fading away, my friend: our quaint but glory-filled hymns played on that heart-warming organ, our stately building with its changeless atmosphere from another era, our carefully crafted sermons that no one quite remembers, our Sunday bulletins announcing the 99 percent predictable programs, and our beloved pastor that everything revolved around ââ¬â it's all going ashcan. By 2025 (or earlier), this shrinking segment of the church will be peopled with gray-haired folk over 60, tottering down memory lane toward a vaguely irrelevant future.
For decades, a steady 95 percent of U.S. believers have belonged to such a traditional church. But in the past six or seven years, Barna reports, that 95 percent has gone into free-fall ââ¬â to 75 percent. And 20 years hence, it will be near 30 percent. Because of this megashift, the broad outlines of American culture will undergo a massive transformation.
The church of the Revolutionaries
Now the good news.
The traditional church is being replaced by something much better. A church on steroids, if you will. It will be a highly complex, non-centralized mixture of various types of small groups, such as:
Who will run this seeming mishmash? The Holy Spirit of God himself ââ¬â ably assisted by millions of nameless, faceless nobodies who want neither glory nor recognition, just an honest role in the high adventure of transforming this troubled land into the free, sensible, Christian nation it was meant to be.
Among the attitudes George Barna is hearing from Revolutionaries are these:
"The proof of my status as a Revolutionary is the love I show to God and people."
"Every breath I take is a declaration of war against Satan."
"God does not need me to fight His fight, but he invites me to allow Him to fight through me. I anticipate and will gladly endure various hardships; for this is the price of participation in winning the spiritual war."
"I am not called to attend or join a church. I am called to be the Church."
"I do not give away 10 percent of my resources. I surrender 100 percent."
"I am bound at a heart and soul level to other Revolutionaries, and I will bless other believers whenever I have the chance."
"The world is desperately seeking meaning and purpose. I will respond to that need with the Good News and meaningful service."
When these attitudes become the norm among our young people ââ¬â and they will ââ¬â America will be a very different country.
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### Okiereddust
*2005-10-24 18:55* | [User Profile](/od/user/29)
[QUOTE] Dr. George Barna is the most quoted Christian authority in America, and this week he has released a brief bombshell of a book, "Revolution" (Tyndale House), that announces the impending arrival of a world you will hardly recognize.
For 21 years, Barna's huge audience has been the traditional, institutional church leaders of all denominations. After they finish reading "Revolution," that audience may all fit into the back seat of a Corvette.
The cause of Barna's impending downsizing? He tells the truth ââ¬â eloquently, fearlessly and with the backing of roomfuls of data. Nobody really tries to argue with Barna's numbers. The research and statistics behind his 36 books would sink a modest-sized oil tanker.
Here are some of these statistics [QUOTE]Fewer than half of all adults can name the four gospels. Many Christians cannot identify more than two or three of the disciples. According to data from the Barna Research Group, 60 percent of Americans can't name even five of the Ten Commandments. "No wonder people break the Ten Commandments all the time. They don't know what they are," said George Barna, president of the firm. The bottom line? "Increasingly, America is biblically illiterate." [see Barna Group's web site] Multiple surveys reveal the problem in stark terms. According to 82 percent of Americans, "God helps those who help themselves," is a Bible verse. Those identified as born-again Christians did better--by one percent. A majority of adults think the Bible teaches that the most important purpose in life is taking care of one's family. Some of the statistics are enough to perplex even those aware of the problem. A Barna poll indicated that at least 12 percent of adults believe that Joan of Arc was Noah's wife. Another survey of graduating high school seniors revealed that over 50 percent thought that Sodom and Gomorrah were husband and wife. A considerable number of respondents to one poll indicated that the Sermon on the Mount was preached by Billy Graham. We are in big trouble.[/QUOTE] Hardly seems conducive to the formation of "revolutionaries". At least at first glance. I wonder what Barna is really saying here. Here's one interpretation. [QUOTE]Interestingly, Schmidt points to Sen. Barack Obama, the recently elected senator from Illinois who has emerged as one of the leading lights in the Democratic Party. Obama, Schmidt advises, wants to "reconnect progressive politics with religious vision." Senator Obama's statement on this point deserves careful analysis: "My mother saw religion as an impediment to broader values, like tolerance and racial inclusivity. She remembered church-going folks who also called people nigger. But she was a deeply spiritual person, and when I moved to Chicago and worked with church-based community organizations, I kept hearing her values expressed." We should note that Obama made no reference to where his mother discovered those "broader values" nor did he identify any specific content concerning these values or the spiritual vision that was claimed to undergird them. Nevertheless, Obama's statement serves to indicate how the concept of spirituality functions as a substitute for any specific truth claim or religious identification. More surprisingly, Schmidt appears to be impressed with Rabbi Michael Lerner, editor of Tikkun magazine, and his ideal of an "Emancipatory Spirituality." In Lerner's analysis, "The liberal world has developed such a knee-jerk hostility to religion" that those "who actually do have spiritual yearnings" have been marginalized. In truth, the vagueness of these statements undermines any claim to make a serious intellectual argument. Lerner's idea of "spiritual yearnings" gets him nowhere--what exactly is spiritual about these yearnings? Without reference to some specific truth claim or structured thought, this becomes little more than nonsensical wordplay. [url]http://www.crosswalk.com/news/weblogs/mohler/[/url][/QUOTE] --- ### Texas Dissident *2005-10-24 21:16* | [User Profile](/od/user/1) [QUOTE=Happy Hacker]The old denominations are in free-fall. Newer, morally more conservative, more casual denominations are picking up some of the refugees. But, over the last several decades, America has been becoming less Christian. The media and the goverment are decidedly hostile to Christianity. And, most of the "Christian community" shares the guilt.[/QUOTE] Indeed, HH. There is much that can be mined from this article. On the surface it is obviously a call to ministers and church outreach directors to plan and market their product to the expected trends taking shape. Of course many of us have big problems with that, as if the Gospel is just another commodity to market, but leaving that aside as it is really more a symptom of the problem than the problem itself. The main point that jumps out at me is the forecasting of Christianity's total retreat into subjectivity, which is of course the end result of the evangelicalism rampant in America today. And we wonder why we are losing cultural and societal cohesion. Evangelical Christianity's worship service is entirely focused on the subjective experience of each participant, so to my mind the inevitable result is a widespread atomized and individualized "Church". Gone will be the cultural anchor of a common liturgy and worship service that physically brings together and binds a community in a shared objective faith and practice. The prescription to the rapid onset of this disease is certainly not new marketing techniques, polling, demographic surveys and the like, but rather faithful adherence to the Scripturally instituted means of spreading the Gospel via Word and Sacrament. This is the proper function of the Church and worship service, to deliver the objective living Gospel and not simply some symbolism of same whereby the focus of worship is diverted to the subjective experience of each individual worshipper. A consistent and common liturgy also helps to bind and forge commonality within a respective community. Now perhaps more than ever, the Church needs to stay and remain consistent within the Scripturally authoritated means given it and trust that the Holy Spirit will work and move as He wills. --- ### jay *2005-10-25 03:36* | [User Profile](/od/user/159) Another grand slam by TD. Good work! I was going to a "mega church" for a while. It has 14K members and is the largest Methodist church in the USA. It was crazy: they had the obligatory coffee shop in the narthex, and a giant sanctuary where you'd need binocs to see the Pastor. I think you're closer to an NFL player sitting in the upper tank at most stadiums than you are to your own pastor. One thing these mega-churches also have: multiple pastors! I mean, I grew up going to a place where you could literally call THE pastor and talk. We've almost disconnected ourselves from the very spiritual leader of the church itself. Doesn't that factor in to the alienation people have with the church? I say, clearly it does. --- ### Walter Yannis *2005-10-25 08:12* | [User Profile](/od/user/57) [QUOTE=Texas Dissident]Evangelical Christianity's worship service is entirely focused on the subjective experience of each participant, so to my mind the inevitable result is a widespread atomized and individualized "Church". Gone will be the cultural anchor of a common liturgy and worship service that physically brings together and binds a community in a shared objective faith and practice. [/QUOTE] Perfect. That's precisely the issue. All culture derives from "cult." If our worship is centered on subjective experience, then that will inexorably lead to a self-centered culture. Keep talking like that and you'll find yourself nominated to the Roman Curia!:alucard: ---