← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · Petr
Thread ID: 20663 | Posts: 28 | Started: 2005-10-15
2005-10-15 19:42 | User Profile
[COLOR="Red"][B][I]"Certainly Turkey felt that it had what to gain by supporting Israel. By supporting Israel and the Jewish state they showed the world a support for secularism and enlightenment. The perception that Jews were powerful and influential both in Turkey and the U.S reigned. "[/I][/B][/COLOR]
[url]http://www.angelfire.com/ex/sbtai/ehrlich.html[/url]
[FONT="Trebuchet MS"] [SIZE="5"]Sabbatean Messianism as Proto-Secularism: Examples in Modern Turkey and Zionism[/SIZE]
[SIZE="3"][B]/ Avrum Ehrlich
Ana Sayfa Makale ve Röportajlar[/B]
[I][B]TURKISH JEWISH ENCOUNTERS Studies on Turkish Jewish Relations Through the Ages Edited by Mehmet Tütüncü ISBN 90-804409-4-9 Published and distributed by SOTA, Haarlem 2001 [/B][/I]
This article tries to understand two aspects of the relationship between Sabbateanism and secularism, the first is the influence of the Dönme; an organised Sabbatean group that converted to Islam out of theological conviction which we will argue underscored a distinct "assimilation doctrine" and a profound sympathy for secularism. The second is the general effects of Sabbatean doctrines and the extent to which it trickled down and influenced strains within the mainstream Jewish mindset. These two are very different, despite its secrecy the former is an organised cultural group while the latter does not credit Sabbateanism in any way and even tries to disguise it, so proof must be sought through clues and doctrinal similarities still extant within the thinking patterns of suspected groups. Scholars such as Scholem and Katz undertook this and we have them to thank for drawing the connection between Sabbateanism and certain modern Jewish phenomena. This article carries off from Scholem's assertion and Katz's follow-up that Sabbateanism, as an anti-nomian religion, provided precedents and legitimacy to a Judaism that did not necessarily keep all Jewish law and in doing so paved the way to forms of ritually non-observant Judaism such as the Haskalla and Zionism. In this paper we will concentrate, amongst other things, an evidence of Sabbatean influence an the Young Turk revolution and an Zionism.
The Dönme answered to various names such as "Maaminim" (Hebrew for believers'), "Avdeti" (Arabic forheretics'), "Selanikli" (from Salonika), and Sabetayci (Sabbetai). By the 19th century three strains of Dönme had emerged, each with their own distinct classes and kahal/synagogues and they were particularly represented in the Dönme stronghold of Salonica.
I. Izmirim, (otherwise known as Kapanci) were the original followers of Sabetay Sevi, named alter his home-town of Izmir. The Izmiris were successful in trade and in intelligentsia - they formed the aristocracy of Dönme society under the name "Cavelleros", they were highly assimilated into Ottoman society and spoke Turkish.
The Yakoviyim, followed Sevi's brother Jacob believing him to be his incarnation. They were represented in lower and middle classes of Ottoman society and were commonly bureaucrats in Ottoman government.
The Konyoses, (otherwise known as Karaka~) followed one of Sevi's disciples Baruchia Russo believing him to be his incarnation. They were the poorest of the Dönme, spoke Judeo-Spanish and were generally artisans and workers. A part of this group are believed to still practice.
The extent to which Jews were involved in the Young Turk revolution is debated, some arguing that Jews and Dönme dominated the Committee of the Union and Progress Party (C.U.P) - which gained control of the State. Others argue that this was anti-Semitic rhetoric and exaggerated and that while the Jews supported the revolution an a grass roots level, they were not highly represented in the upper echelons of the party. Indeed British diplomats did report to the home office that a Jewish-Masonic conspiracy was at work favouring the revolution. The Dönme are believed to have been equally involved in the revolution but exact details are less known due to a number of reasons. Many Dönme were cursorily described as Jews by observers lacking an appreciation for the subtleties of the two communities. The general secrecy of the community and its increased secrecy alter WWII and the threats of Islamic fundamentalism peppered with assimilation trends and extreme secularism makes documentation difficult.
Revolutionary activists Leon Gattegno and a Dönme friend Mazlum Hakki published a Journal in Paris entitled "Resad" under pseudonym of `sucro' and sent it to the great powers condemning the Sultans government. In an article in the C.U.P Journal "Mechveret Suppliment Francais" the Dönme were mentioned to be the only group in Salonica active an behalf of the C.U.P and the revolution. Another article describes the Dönme as one of the most modernised groups in the empire. According to Sükrü Hanioglu about five people appear active in the Salonican branch of the C.U.P two were Jewish and two of possible Dönme descent. Emmanuel Karasu was Grand Master of the Macedonia Risorta Masonic Lodge and invited Muslims and Dönme to join the vlodges of the Empire sheltering them and providing them with a framework to disseminate their ideas. Avram Galante was a writer and participated in the Second Turk Congress in Paris, 1907. Ferdinand Efendi, an Ottoman of Greek descent and possibly Dönme. A man called Archbolo whose ethnic descent is unknown, and another who had a Muslim name but might also have been Dönme. Dr Nazim, Nuzhet Faik, Mustafa Arif, Muslihiddin Adil, Sukru Bleda, Halide Edip Adivar and Ahmet Emin Yalman were all active in the Young Turks and of Dönme families. Mehmet Kapanci (1839-1924) who was a mayor of Salonica and a weil known banker funded the C.U.P and was a Dönme. Other Jews active in the Young Turks were Nissim Mazliah from Izmir and Vitali Faradji , Moise Cohen (later called Munis Tekinalp) who was an active Jew and once rabbinical student who turned to business and actively asserted a proud Turkish identity along with Zionist sentiments. Other Jews and Dönme served as ranking officers in the Turkish army. Jews had always been represented in Ottoman parliaments but there had been a significant rise alter the revolution reflecting their degree of participation. Unable to work together in their respective religious environments, The Jews and Dönme appeared to have met and fraternised within the Masonic lodge. Because of the rigid initiation rites the fear of espionage by the Sultan was less in such an environment and it was here that revolutionary sentiments. The Dönme thrived in the Masonic environment allowing them to be both secretive and influential, maintaining their religious ideas in a non-dogmatic atmosphere, bridging the gap between the Jews and the Muslims, they seemed to represent the happy medium of the secular Young Turk revolution. Even today Dönme are involved in the Masonic Lodges of Turkey. Sahir Talat Akev of the Kapanci-Izmir group of Dönme was the Grand Master of the Masons until his death in 1999. In Salonica of 1879 the Kapanci Dönme set up a private school system called "Terakki Mektebi'' (``progress'' named alter the revolutionary "Progress Party" and suggesting the strong spare of ethos) which became a model for other private schools in Turkey. It was transferred to Istanbul alter the population-transfer and has become one of the best- known private high schools (called Sisli Terakki Lisesi). Similarly the Karakas Dönme founded the Fevziye Mektebi School and recently founded a university by the name of Isik ÃÅniversitesi.
Considering its Islamic heritage and the environment of Arab hatred for Israel it is remarkable that Turkey has fostered such strong ties with Israel and the causes for it may be traced to the Dönme influence. Dönme members today represent the elite of society within Turkey and it is the fear of being discovered that created the intense secrecy around them, their inereased secrecy and influence continues to circularly feed the hatred and suspicion surrounding them.
[B]Presently there are some well-known Dönme families and other less known families occupying important positions in Modern Turkish life. The current Foreign Minister Mr. Ismail Cem is a Dönme though some of his family members have officially come out and declared Dönme ethnicity but disassociate from the cultural group These include relatives: Cemil Ipekci, a famous fashion designer in Turkey is of Dönme descent and Nukhet Izet Ipekci, daughter of the famous Journalist Abdi Ipekci, who declared on an Islamic channel that her parents were of Dönme origins. Others such as the industrialist the Dilber and Bezmen familie are Rahsan Ecevit wife of Prime Minister Bülent Ecevit is a Dönme. First ever ,female Prime Minister Tansu Ciller is half Dönme on her mother's side. Altan Ãâymen, past leader of the Republican People's Party was of Dönme descent. [/B]
Other prominent personalities ranging from well known writers, journalists, film makers, professors, lawyers, judges, bureaucrats (legal and foreign Service), bankers, industrialists are of Dönme origin. [B]They can almost be said to be the standard bearers of secularism and modern Turkish nationalism that is based an cultural unity rather than racial characteristics.[/B] They are more advanced in this process than secular Turkish Jews and in many ways resemble the prominence and thinking of the European Jewish Enlightenment leading many to suspicion that Sabbateanism played a rote there too. Sympathy with Jews exists but association is not common because of the fears of being tainted by Islamic fundamentalism.
Turkey was a member of the commission for Palestinian conciliation and as an Islamic country was expected to take an anti-Israel Position. Under the representation of the intellectual Huseyin Cahit Yalcin Turkey proved to be very supportive of the fledgling State. Yalcin had been friendly Ben Gurion and there are many reasons to believe that his intellectual background brought him into contact with many Jews and Dönme of Turkey. He became the step-father of Mehmet Cavit Bey's son Siar Yalcin after Bey's execution in 1926. While his initial concern had been that Israel represented foreign interests in the region, those fears were allayed, and Turkey formally recognised the State of Israel an 28 th March 1949, embassies, trade and direct flights followed. Certainly Turkey feit that it had what to gain by supporting Israel. By supporting Israel and the Jewish state they showed the world a support for secularism and enlightenment. The perception that Jews were powerful and influential both in Turkey and the U.S reigned. The agreement was signed only a few days before the Turkish foreign minister met with American President Truman, who himself supported the partition plan of Palestine and was helped by many Jews. The appointment of Henry Morgenthau, a Jewish - American as ambassador in Turkey during the early Part of the century reinforced this perception.[/SIZE] [/FONT]
2005-10-15 19:50 | User Profile
See Travis, [B]this[/B] is the sort of ideal source one should use when "outing Marranos"!
:)
Petr
2005-10-15 19:58 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Petr]See Travis, [B]this[/B] is the sort of ideal source one should use when "outing Marranos"! [/QUOTE]Hanging them with their own rope is ideal, as long as they willingly provide it. I for one do not intend to hold my breath that long.
2005-10-15 20:01 | User Profile
I am personally of the "don't shoot until you see the whites of their eyes"-school...
Making proper sourcework before making accusations is simply a matter of [B]fire discipline[/B].
Petr
2005-10-15 20:03 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Petr]I am personally of the "don't shoot until you see the whites of their eyes"-school...
Petr[/QUOTE]Considering their advantage over us, I don't think we have that luxury.
2005-10-15 20:06 | User Profile
[B]Especially[/B] in tight situations, internal discipline (including self-discipline) is important.
Petr
2005-10-15 20:27 | User Profile
It does not take much dicipline to be silent about corruption. You must realize that not everyone belongs to the "the only credible source is a Jewish source " camp. Some folks can be convinced by other kinds of evidence.
2005-10-15 20:41 | User Profile
[B]Any[/B] mainstream source that would state its case in a calm, respectable manner would do for me, not only Jewish ones.
When most people see someone writing about these academic subjects in a brazenly biased manner, screaming about Protocols [I]et cetera [/I]they tend to suspect everything he may say.
Wise marketing is an essential part of any successful propaganda.
Petr
2005-10-15 20:49 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Petr][B]Any[/B] mainstream source would do for me, not only Jewish ones.
Petr[/QUOTE]Any "mainstream" souce that is not provably Jewish is probably Marrano anyway. Don't hold your breath waiting for them to spill the beans.
The problem with your method is that it does not involve thinking for oneself. Separating the wheat from the chaff is like investing. One cannot rely on academics/authorities to offer us clear definitions of absolute falsehoods and absolute facts, we have to use our own minds and determine what is probable. It's not that difficult to do, all you have to do is apply LOGIC, i.e. means, motive, opportunity, evidence, modus operandi and modus agendi.
2005-10-15 21:03 | User Profile
[COLOR="Sienna"][SIZE="3"][FONT="Arial"][I][B] - "Any "mainstream" souce that is not provably Jewish is probably Marrano anyway."[/B][/I][/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]
[B]No they aren't[/B]. I'm tired of this nonsense, this is typical [I]overplaying your hand [/I]against Jews that makes reasonable people scoff (by association) even at the kind of information I present below.
Petr
2005-10-15 21:25 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Petr]
[B]No they aren't[/B]. I'm tired of this nonsense, this is typical [I]overplaying your hand [/I]against Jews that makes reasonable people scoff (by association) even at the kind of information I present below. [/QUOTE]Applying the logic of modus operandi is not overplaying, it is simply assessing what is probable based on logical criteria. But I know, you want some "source" to do your thinking for you, as if truth comes from authority. Buying a media empire does not make the owner any more truthfull than someone who has no influence. Jews did not acquire so much influence so that they could lose the information war. Waiting for them to hang themselves is not going to save us.
2005-10-16 22:46 | User Profile
[I]From a Philhellenic site [B]The Greco Report[/B] - another good piece that doesn't look too paranoid or rabidly anti-Semitic and thus makes overall a reliable and respectable impression, IMHO.
Note how their claims and citations are properly detailed, avoiding vague generalizations.[/I]
[url]http://www.grecoreport.com/the_young_turks_who_were_they.htm[/url]
[FONT="Times New Roman"] [SIZE="5"][B]The Young Turks: Who Were They?[/B] [/SIZE]
[SIZE="3"]During the last quarter of the 19th century, the Near East Question passed into its critical phase. As a result of the Russo-Turkish war of 1877-78, the Ottoman Empire lost extensive territory mainly in the Balkans where the "autonomous" states of Bulgaria, Bosnia, and Herzegovina passed into the[I] de facto[/I] administrative sphere of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Thessaly and the prefecture of Artas were ceded to Greece, and in Asia, Russia annexed the territories of Kars and Ardachan in Turkish Armenia. In Africa, the English claimed Egypt, and the French Tunisia, while the Italians did not bother to conceal their territorial ambitions toward Tripoli. Meanwhile, the dissident movements in Crete, Armenia, and Macedonia were beginning to reach worrisome levels for the Turkish Sultanate.
One of the first real threats to the Ottoman Throne was a hard-core, conspiratorial group that formed in 1889 among the students of the Military Medical School in Constantinople. The dissatisfaction, though, was widespread throughout the entire military, and had to do with what might be considered today to be union demands: low wages that were paid sporadically and after months of waiting, a promotion system that was torturously slow and not based on merit but on connections, and a cynical disappointment engendered by the promised but never actualized modernization of the military. The main motivating factor in the ever-widening discontent, however, was an agony and concern over the independence of the Turkish State and how best to ensure its continuance. Added to this, and of equal concern, was the problem having to do with the welfare and perpetuation of the Muslim populations living among the many other ethnicities within the Empire.
The conspiratorial leadership, who came to be known as the Young Turks, expressed their dissatisfaction with the status quo, throwing all of the blame on the Sultan, Abdul Hamit, who they proclaimed to be too dictatorial. They demanded his exile -- though not the abolishment of the Sultanate -- together with the restoration of the constitution of 1876.
[B]Union and Progress[/B]
The Young Turk movement -- after many mishaps and near dissolution -- finally achieved it first goal. In early July of 1908, led by the officer-members of the Committee of Union and Progress ([I]Itihàt vè Terakì[/I]), the Turkish troops stationed in Macedonia refused to obey orders coming from Constantinople. The Young Turks then sent a telegraphed ultimatum to the Sultan from Serres on the 21st of July. They demanded the immediate restoration and implementation of the constitution, and threatened him with dethronement should he fail to comply. On the 24th of July, Abdul Hamit announced that the constitution had been restored and was in full force and effect.
The subsequent mid-20th century overthrow of King Farouk in Egypt by the Nasserite revolutionaries bears some striking similarities to the Young Turk movement. There are, however, some very striking differences as well. Some of these are: 1) the diverse ethnic background of the conspirators; 2) the significant and crucial role played by the allied movement of fellow-conspirators known as the [I]Donmè[/I] (Jews who had converted [?] to Islam); and, 3) the enthusiastic way in which the conspiracy was embraced by Masonic elements.
As far as the multiethnic composition of the conspirators is concerned, one need only read their names to verify their diverse background: Tserkès (Circassion ), Mehmet Ali, Xersekli (Herzogovinians), Ali Roushdi, Kosovali (Kosovars) and others. In many cases, the ethnic origin of the conspirator was not evident from the name: Ibrahim Temo was an Albanian, as was Ismail Kemal. Murat Bey Dagestanos and Achmet Riza had an Arkhazian father and an Austrian mother. One of the theoreticians of the movement was Ziyia Ngiokali, a Kurd, while one of the major planners of tactics and theory was a Jew from Serres who went by the name of Tekìn Alì (real name, Moshe Cohen).
The telegraph-office clerk who became one of the ruling troika of post-revolutionary Turkey, TalaÃÂ t Pasha, was Bosnian, Pomack, or Gypsy; the point being that he was not a Turk. We should also make note of the fact that the Committee of Union and Progress admitted many members from areas outside of the Ottoman Empire, and that some of these even served on its Central Committee.
[B]Masonic elements[/B]
The strong connection between the [I]ItihÃÂ ts[/I] (conspirators) and Masonry is a well-documented fact. The leftist Turkish writer, Kamouran Mberik Xartboutlou, in his book, [I]The Turkish Impasse /I, wrote: "Those who desired entry into the inner circle of that secret organization [the [I]ItihÃÂ t[/I]], had to be a Mason, and had to have the backing of a large segment of the commercial class." The true nature of the relationship between the Young Turks and the Masonic lodges of Thessaloniki has been commented upon by many researchers and writers. In her well-known and extensively documented book, [I]Secret Societies and Subversive Movements /I, author and historian Nesta Webster writes that "The Young Turk movement began in the Masonic lodges of Thessaloniki under the direct supervision of the Grand Orient Lodge of Italy, which later shared in the success of Mustapha Kemal."
Of course, the precise nature of this relationship is clouded in mystery, but enough facts exist allowing for more than just informed conjecture based on circumstantial evidence. An example of the [I]ItihÃÂ t[/I]-Masonic connection is the interview that Young Turk, Refik Bey, gave to the Paris newspaper [I]Le Temps[/I], on the 20th of August 1908: "It's true that we receive support from Freemasonry and especially from Italian Masonry. The two Italian lodges [of Thessaloniki] -- [I]Macedonia Risorta [/I]and [I]Labor et Lux [/I]-- have provided invaluable services and have been a refuge for us. We meet there as fellow Masons, because it is a fact that many of us are Masons, but more importantly we meet so that we can better organize ourselves."
[B]The Jewish Component[/B]
The [I]Donmè[/I] ("convert" in Turkish), was a Hebrew heresy whose followers converted [?] to Islam in the 18th century. They were most heavily concentrated in Thessaloniki. According to the [I]Great Hellenic Encyclopedia [/I][[I]Megali Elliniki Enkiklopethia[/I]]: "It is generally accepted that the [I]Donmè[/I] secretly continue to adhere to the Hebrew religion and don't allow their kind to intermarry with the Muslims."
The disproportionate power and influence (in light of their number) that the [I]Donmè [/I]had on both the Ottoman Empire and on the Young Turk movement has been the subject of a great deal of commentary by many observers and researchers. The eminent British historian, R. Seton Watson, in his book, [I]The Rise of Nationality in the Balkans[/I]. London, 1917 ([I]H Gennisi tou Ethnikismou sta Valkania[/I]), wrote the following: "The real brains behind the [Itihàt] movement were Jews or Islamic-Jews. The wealthy [I]Donmè[/I] and Jews of Thessaloniki supported [the Young Turks] economically, and their fellow Jewish capitalists in Vienna and Berlin -- as well as in Budapest and possibly Paris and London -- supported them financially as well.
In the January 23rd, 1914, issue of the Czarist Police [[I]Okrana[/I]] Ledger (Number 16609), directed to the Ministry of the Exterior in Saint Petersburg, we read: "A pan-Islamic convention of [I]Itihàts [/I]and Jews was held in the [I]Nouri Osman [/I]lodge in Constantinople. It was attended by approximately 700 prominent [I]Itihàts[/I] and Jews, including "Minister" Talaàt Bey, Bentri Bey, Mbekri Bey, and ([I]Donmè[/I]) Javit Bey. Among the many Jews in attendance, two of the most prominent were the Head of the Security Service, Samouel Effendi, and the Vice-Administrator of the Police, Abraham Bey."
[B]Donmè and Constantine[/B]
The numerous [I]Donmè[/I] in positions of authority within the machinery of the [I]Itihàt[/I] government, as well as on the powerful Central Committee, strengthens the conviction that their influence was widespread and vital to the cause. Ignoring the names mentioned in the Czarist Police Ledger, and even ignoring such Jews as the fanatical Pan-Turkic [Marxist revolutionary and poet, Hikmet] Nazim, or even the many casual allusions [as if it were common knowledge at the time] to the Jewish descent of that most dedicated believer in the Young Turk movement, Mustapha Kemal "Atatürk," one still finds oneself wondering by what authority and under whose auspices was such an obscure Jewish [I]Donmè[/I] from Thessaloniki, by the name of Emmanouel Karasso, able to become a member of the three-man committee that announced his dethronement to Sultan Abdul Hamit after the counter-coup of April 1909?
Compelling, too, is the widely-referenced document which states that Constantine, the King of Greece at the time, characterized the entire Young Turk movement as composed of "Israelites." According to the facts presented in her book, [I]Glory and Partisanship[/I], the Greek professor of the University of Vienna, Polychroni Enepekithi, contends that Constantine made that characterization while complaining to the German Ambassador in Athens about the outrages committed by Young Turks against Hellenes living in the Ottoman Empire.
These references to the relationship between the [I]Donmè[/I], the Masons, and the Young Turks has not been prompted by anti-Semitism or Masonophobia. Rather, we are attempting to shed some light on what to us seems like a puzzling paradox in this revolutionary movement, which is: Why it is that this non-Turkish leadership struggled so hard under the banner of justice for the Turkish people? Also, why is it that others, having nothing to do with Sunnite Islam [the form of Islam practiced in Turkey] struggled equally hard under the banner of justice for Islam? [B]The only answer to this paradox demands that we consider that there may have been another reason behind their fervid struggle, and that this unstated cause is what bound these "ideologues" together.[/B]
[B]Source
[I]Nemesis[/I]. by Ioasif Kassesian. September 2001. pp. 64-66.
Translated by staff. Emphasis added[/SIZE].[/B][/FONT]
2005-10-16 23:46 | User Profile
[I]This source would look like almost too good to be true (I am always on my guard in such cases), but it would indeed seem to come from a mainstream Jewish newspaper.
In any case, Kemal Atatürk [B]was [/B]born in Salonika (Thessaloniki), a place [B]teeming[/B] with Jews and crypto-Jews before the WW II - these are both universally accepted [B]factoids[/B]. I have also read that he was actually born right in the Jewish part on the town as well, but I can't confirm it just now.
[COLOR="Magenta"][B]"In 1900, there were approximately 80,000 Jews in Salonika (out of a total population of 173,000)."[/B][/COLOR]
[url]http://www.bh.org.il/Communities/Archive/Salonika.asp[/url]
(And those were only the "official" Jews, not including Donmé marranos)
Btw, this Hillel Halkin seems to be neocon who has written stuff for "The Commentary"[/I]
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[url]http://www.ahiworld.com/bbs/messages/51.html[/url]
[FONT="Arial"] [B]The Jewish Post of New York. January 28, 1994[/B]
[SIZE="5"]WHEN KEMAL ATATURK RECITED SHEMA YISRAEL[/SIZE]
[B][I]"It's My Secret Prayer, Too," He Confessed[/I]
By Hillel Halkin[/B]
ZICHRON YAAKOV - There were two questions I wanted to ask, I said over the phone to Batya Keinan, spokeswoman for Israeli president Ezer Weizman, who was about to leave the next day, Monday, Jan. 24, on the first visit ever made to Turkey by a Jewish chief of state. One was whether Mr. Weizman would be taking part in an official ceremony commemorating Kemal Ataturk.
Ms. Kenan checked the president's itinerary, according to which he and his wife would lay a wreath on Ataturk's grave the morning of their arrival, and asked what my second question was.
"Does President Weizman know that Ataturk had Jewish ancestors and was taught Hebrew prayers as a boy?"
"Of course, of course," she answered as unsurprisedly as if I had inquired whether the president was aware that Ataturk was Turkey's national hero.
[B]Excited and Distressed[/B]
I thanked her and hung up. A few minutes later it occurred to me to call back and ask whether President Weizman intended to make any reference while in Turkey to Ataturk's Jewish antecedents. "I'm so glad you called again," said Ms. Kenan, who now sounded excited and a bit distressed. "Exactly where did you get your information from?"
Why was she asking, I countered, if the president's office had it too?
I faxed her a short version of it. Here is a longer one.
Stories about the Jewishness of Ataturk, whose statue stands in the main square of every town and city in Turkey, already circulated in his lifetime but were denied by him and his family and never taken seriously by biographers. Of six biographies of him that I consulted this week, none even mentions such a speculation. The only scholarly reference to it in print that I could find was in the entry on Ataturk in the [I]Israeli Entsiklopedya ha-Ivrit[/I], which begins:
[I]"Mustafa Kemal Ataturk - (1881-1938), Turkish general and statesman and founder of the modern Turkish state.[/I]
[I]"Mustafa Kemal was born to the family of a minor customs clerk in Salonika and lost his father when he was young. There is no proof of the belief, widespread among both Jews and Muslims in Turkey, that his family came from the Doenme. As a boy he rebelled against his mother's desire to give him a traditional religious education, and at the age of 12 he was sent at his demand to study in a military academy."[/I]
[B]Secular Father[/B]
The Doenme were an underground sect of Sabbetaians, Turkish Jews who took Muslim names and outwardly behaved like Muslims but secretly believed in Sabbetai Zevi, the 17th-century false messiah, and conducted carefully guarded prayers and rituals in his name. The encyclopedia's version of Ataturk's education, however, is somewhat at variance with his own. Here is his account of it as quoted by his biographers:
[I]"My father was a man of liberal views, rather hostile to religion, and a partisan of Western ideas. He would have preferred to see me go to a * lay school, which did not found its teaching on the Koran but on modern science.
"In this battle of consciences, my father managed to gain the victory after a small maneuver; he pretended to give in to my mother's wishes, and arranged that I should enter the [Islamic] school of Fatma Molla Kadin with the traditional ceremony. ...[/I]
[I]"Six months later, more or less, my father quietly withdrew me from the school and took me to that of old Shemsi Effendi who directed a free preparatory school according to European methods. My mother made no objection, since her desires had been complied with and her conventions respected. It was the ceremony above all which had satisfied her."[/I]
[B]Who was Mustafa Kemal's father, who behaved here in typical Doenme fashion, outwardly observing Muslim ceremonies while inwardly scoffing at them?[/B] Ataturk's mother Zubeyde came from the mountains west of Salonika, close to the current Albanian frontier; of the origins of his father, Ali Riza, little is known. Different writers have given them as Albanian, Anatolian and Salonikan, and Lord Kinross' compendious 1964 "Ataturk" calls Ali Riza a "shadowy personality" and adds cryptically regarding Ataturk's reluctance to disclose more about his family background: "To the child of so mixed an environment it would seldom occur, wherever his racial loyalties lay, to inquire too exactly into his personal origins beyond that of his parentage."
[B]Learning Hebrew[/B]
Did Kinross suspect more than he was admitting? I would never have asked had I not recently come across a remarkable chapter while browsing in the out-of-print Hebrew autobiography of Itamar Ben-Avi, son of Eliezer Ben-Yehuda, the leading promoter of the revival of spoken Hebrew in late 19th-century Palestine. Ben-Avi, the first child to be raised in Hebrew since ancient times and later a Hebrew journalist and newspaper publisher, writes in this book of walking into the Kamenitz Hotel in Jerusalem one autumn night in 1911 and being asked by its proprietor: " 'Do you see that Turkish officer sitting there in the corner, the one* with the bottle of arrack?' "
[I]" 'Yes.' " " 'He's one of the most important officers in the Turkish army.' " " 'What's his name?' " " 'Mustafa Kemal.' " " 'I'd like to meet him,' I said, because the minute I looked at him I was startled by his piercing green eyes."[/I]
Ben-Avi describes two meetings with Mustafa Kemal, who had not yet taken the name of Ataturk, 'Father of the Turks.' Both were conducted in French, were largely devoted to Ottoman politics, and were doused with large amounts of arrack. In the first of these, Kemal confided:
[I]"I'm a descendant of Sabbetai Zevi - not indeed a Jew any more, but an ardent admirer of this prophet of yours. My opinion is that every Jew in this country would do well to join his camp."[/I]
During their second meeting, held 10 days later in the same hotel, Mustafa Kemal said at one point:"
[I]'I have at home a Hebrew Bible printed in Venice. It's rather old, and I remember my father bringing me to a Karaite teacher who taught me to read it. I can still remember a few words of it, such as --' "[/I]
And Ben-Avi continues:
[I]"He paused for a moment, his eyes searching for something in space. Then he recalled: " 'Shema Yisra'el, Adonai Elohenu, Adonai Ehad!' " 'That's our most important prayer, Captain.' " 'And my secret prayer too, cher monsieur,' he replied, refilling our glasses."[/I]
Although Itamar Ben-Avi could not have known it, Ataturk no doubt meant "secret prayer" quite literally. Among the esoteric prayers of the Doenme, first made known to the scholarly world when a book of them reached the National Library in Jerusalem in 1935, is one containing the confession of faith:
[I]"Sabbetai Zevi and none other is the true Messiah. Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one."[/I]
It was undoubtedly from this credo, rather than from the Bible, that Ataturk remembered the words of the Shema, which to the best of my knowledge he confessed knowing but once in his adult life: to a young Hebrew journalist whom he engaged in two tipsily animated conversations in Jerusalem nearly a decade before he took control of the Turkish army after its disastrous defeat in World War I, beat back the invading Greeks and founded a secular Turkish republic in which Islam was banished - once and for all, so he thought - to the mosques.
Ataturk would have had good reasons for concealing his Doenme origins. Not only were the Doenmes (who married only among themselves and numbered close to 15,000, largely concentrated in Salonika, on the eve of World War I) looked down on as heretics by both Muslims and Jews, they had a reputation for sexual profligacy that could hardly have been flattering to their offspring. This license, which was theologically justified by the claim that it eflected the faithful's freedom from the biblical commandments under the new dispensation of Sabbetai Zevi, is described by Ezer Weizman's predecessor, Israel's second president, Yitzchak Ben-Zvi, in his book on lost Jewish communities, "The Exiled and the Redeemed":
[I]'Saintly Offspring'[/I]
[I]"Once a year [during the Doenmes' annual 'Sheep holiday'] the candles are put out in the course of a dinner which is attended by orgies and the ceremony of the exchange of wives. ... The rite is practiced on the night of Sabbetai Zevi's traditional bithday. ... It is believed that children born of such unions are regarded as saintly."[/I]
Although Ben-Zvi, writing in the 1950s, thought that "There is reason to believe that this ceremony has not been entirely abandoned and continues to this day," little is known about whether any of the Doenmes' traditional practices or social structures still survive in modern Turkey. [B]The community abandoned Salonika along with the city's other Turkish residents during the Greco-Turkish war of 1920-21, and its descendants, many of whom are said to be wealthy businessmen and merchants in Istanbul, are generally thought to have assimilated totally into Turkish life.[/B]
After sending my fax to Batya Keinan, I phoned to check that she had received it. She had indeed, she said, and would see to it that the president was given it to read on his flight to Ankara. It is doubtful, however, whether Mr. Weizman will allude to it during his visit: [B]The Turkish government, which for years has been fending off Muslim fundamentalist assaults on its legitimacy and on the secular reforms of Ataturk, has little reason to welcome the news that the father of the 'Father of the Turks' was a crypto-Jew who passed on his anti-Muslim sentiments to his son.[/B] Mustafa Kemal's secret is no doubt one that it would prefer to continue to be kept.[/FONT]
Petr
2005-10-17 14:51 | User Profile
Here is another good source. A whole book on Marranos - I'd love to get my hands on [I]The Secret Jews[/I], but this is the only excerpt I could find through web search so far:
[url]http://www.ummah.net/sultan/donmeh.html[/url]
[FONT="Trebuchet MS"][SIZE="3"][COLOR="DarkRed"][B][I]The Secret Jews[/I], Joachim Prinz, 1973, pp. 111-122 [/B]
..... In December 1686, more than three hundred families converted to Islam in Salonika. Like Shabtai and other Marranos, they continued to attend Jewish services secretly and observed certain Jewish customs in their homes.
This was the origin of the most important group, numerically and historically, of Islamic Marranos. The faithful Mohemmedans call these hidden Jews 'doenmehs', the renegades.
..... Over the years the 'doenmeh' movement became firmly established in Asia Minor. [B]In the nineteenth century the sect was estimated to have twenty thousand members. Salonika remained its main seat until that city became Greek in 1913. Although the Jewish community remained there under Greek rule, the 'doenmehs' moved to Constantinople[/B].
In Salonika in the early days of the movement the ten commandments "of our Lord King and Messiah Shabtai Zvi" were proclaimed by the 'doenmehs'. They still form the credo of the surviving 'doenmehs' of our time.
[B][I]I shall meticulously adhere to the customs of the Turks so as not to arose their suspicion. I shall not only observe the Fast of Ramadan but all the other Muslim customs which are observed in public.
I shall not marry into a Muslim family nor maintain any intimate association with them, for they are to us an abomination and particularly their women. [/I][/B]
From time to time the Turkish governors of Salonika, who received complaints about the sect from the Mohammedan clergy, tried to investigate the strange existence of the 'doenmehs'. Their clannishness, their refusal to mingle with Mohammedan families, and their marital restrictions had become a well-known fact, difficult to hide from the majority of the people among whom they had lived for many generations.
[B]Socially, they seemed impenetrable, although in their Moslem religious practices they were beyond reproach. In fact, they often seemed even more devout followers of the Prophet Mohammed and more sincere worshipers of Allah than the rest of the community.[/B] They fasted during Ramadan, and their leaders and adherents were found in large, even conspicuous numbers among the pilgrims to Mecca. It was well known that in the seventeenth century Joseph Zvi, one of the immediate followers of Shabtai Zvi and one of his inner circle, died on the way from his pilgrimage to Mecca, and the day of his death is still commemorated.
[B]The revolt of the Young Turks in 1908 against the authoritarian regime of Sultan Abdul Hamid began among the intellectuals of Salonika. It was from there that the demand for a constitutional regime originated.[/B] Among the leaders of the revolution which resulted in a more modern government in Turkey were Djavid Bey and Mustafa Kemal. Both were ardent 'doenmehs'. Djavid Bey became minister of finance; Mustafa Kemal became the leader of the new regime and he adopted the name of Ataturk. His opponents tried to use his 'doenmeh' background to unseat him, but without success. Too many of the Young Turks in the newly formed revolutionary Cabinet prayed to Allah, but had as their real prophet Shabtai Zvi, the Messiah of Smyrna.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
I recognized this author, because Israel Shahak had cited him in his classic piece [I]Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of Three Thousand Years[/I], and there Prinz was also expressing viewpoints that modern Jewry would find (ahem) somewhat embarrassing:
[url]http://www.abbc.net/islam/english/books/jewhis/jewhis4.htm[/url]
[COLOR="Purple"][FONT="Times New Roman"][SIZE="3"]"Perhaps the most shocking example of this type is the delight with which some Zionist leaders in Germany welcomed Hitler's rise to power, because they shared his belief in the primacy of 'race' and his hostility to the assimilation of Jews among 'Aryans'. They congratulated Hitler on his triumph over the common enemy - the forces of liberalism. [B]Dr Joachim Prinz, a Zionist rabbi who subsequently emigrated to the USA, where he rose to be vice-chairman of the World Jewish Congress and a leading light in the World Zionist Organization (as well as a great friend of Golda Meir), published in 1934 a special book, [I]Wir Juden /I, to celebrate Hitler's so- called German Revolution and the defeat of liberalism[/B]:
[I]The meaning of the German Revolution for the German nation will eventually be clear to those who have created it and formed its image. Its meaning for us must be set forth here: the fortunes of liberalism are lost. The only form of political life which has helped Jewish assimilation is sunk.[/I]28
The victory of Nazism rules out assimilation and mixed marriages as an option for Jews. 'We are not unhappy about this,' said Dr Prinz. In the fact that Jews are being forced to identify them- selves as Jews, he sees 'the fulfillment of our desires'. And further:
[I]We want assimilation to be replaced by a new law: the declaration of belonging to the Jewish nation and Jewish race. A state built upon the principle of the purity of nation and race can only honored and respected by a Jew who declares his belonging to his own kind. Having so declared himself, he will never be capable of faulty loyalty towards a state. The state cannot want other Jews but such as declare themselves as belonging to their nation. It will not want Jewish flatterers and crawlers. It must demand of us faith and loyalty to our own interest. For only he who honors his own breed and his own blood can have an attitude of honor towards the national will of other nations.[/I]29
The whole book is full of similar crude flatteries of Nazi ideology, glee at the defeat of liberalism and particularly of the ideas of the French Revolution~a and great expectations that, in the congenial atmosphere of the myth of the Aryan race, Zionism and the myth of the Jewish race will also thrive.
[B]28 Dr Joachim Prinz, [I]Wirjuden[/I], Berlin, 1934, pp. 150-1.
29 Ibid., pp. 154-5.[/B][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]
Yes, Joachim Prinz was the essential thousand-faced Jew - in the early 1930s he was praising Nazis for their racial separateness, and in the 1960s he was marching with Martin Luther King! Gold medal in hypocrisy for this guy.
[COLOR="Red"][B]"While serving as President of the American Jewish Congress, he represented the Jewish community as an organizer of the August 28, 1963 March on Washington. [U]He came to the podium immediately following a stirring spiritual sung by the folk singer Odetta and just he before Martin Luther King delivered his famous "[I]I have a dream speech[/I]." [/U][/B][/COLOR]
[url]http://www.joachimprinz.com/civilrights.htm[/url]
(A whole website dedicated to him:
[url]http://www.joachimprinz.com/[/url]
Petr
2005-10-17 22:15 | User Profile
Wow -- great stuff, Petr. Thanks!
2005-10-17 23:18 | User Profile
[QUOTE]"Mustafa Kemal was born to the family of a minor customs clerk in Salonika and lost his father when he was young. There is no proof of the belief, widespread among both Jews and Muslims in Turkey, that his family came from the Doenme. As a boy he rebelled against his mother's desire to give him a traditional religious education, and at the age of 12 he was sent at his demand to study in a military academy."[/QUOTE]Kemal Ataturk was a Doenme? Fascinating!
This leading role of the Doenme in the "Young Turks" certainly helps explain why the Ataturk regime, in spite of its campaign for cultural modernization/secularization/democracy, was so much more anti-Christian than the sultans were.
2005-10-18 12:54 | User Profile
[I]More on Turkey and Jews ("our common Judeo-Islamic heritage", you know) :[/I]
[COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Trebuchet MS"][SIZE="3"]"In March 1556, Sultan Suleiman "the Magnificent" wrote a letter to Pope Paul IV asking for the immediate release of the Ancona Marranos, whom he declared to be Ottoman citizens. The Pope had no other alternative but to release them in recognition of the superior status of the Ottoman Empire at the time. [B]By 1477, Jewish households in Istanbul numbered 1,647, or 11% of the total and 50 years later, their numbers had risen four-fold[/B].
...
"[B]In 1948, the United States was the first nation to recognize the new state of Israel; Turkey was the second[/B]. When the General Assembly adopted a resolution in December of the year calling on the Arabs and Jews to negotiate peace and creating a Palestine Conciliation Commission (PCC), it consisted of the United States, France and Turkey. All Arab delegations voted against it. [/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]
http://web.israelinsider.com/bin/en.jsp?enPage=ViewsPage&enDisplay=view&enDispWhat=object&enDispWho=Article^l1453&enZone=Views&enVersion=0&
Petr
2005-10-18 15:33 | User Profile
Very interesting, Petr. You dig up some good stuff.
2005-10-18 16:18 | User Profile
I can add my personal observation: Turks LOVE Jews and subscribe to all of the victimhood tales about holohoax etc. At least those I've met do. And while Turks want to join the EU, they will readily identify as "colored" minohtie when it's about taking sides.
I am amazed at the people in the West who view Turkey positively. It's been just half a millennium since the Turks eliminated a center of Christian civilization. And then spread the cancer further in Europe.
2005-10-18 18:49 | User Profile
[QUOTE=madrussian]I am amazed at the people in the West who view Turkey positively. It's been just half a millennium since the Turks eliminated a center of Christian civilization. And then spread the cancer further in Europe.[/QUOTE]We'll the west has always seemed to give Turks a free pass, dating back to the Armenian holocaust. Probably because they seem to work hand in glove the the holocaust lobby on this, which is so powerful politically and in the media.
But I think overall its an area we know practically nothing about. and what we do know negative about is crouched in modern liberal guilt feeligs, like Clinton apologizing for the crusades. I guess part of it is all that modern liberal propoganda about throwing all those atavastic racial hatreds aside, which of course regarding Turks was always present.
2005-10-18 20:40 | User Profile
[quote=madrussian] I am amazed at the people in the West who view Turkey positively. It's been just half a millennium since the Turks eliminated a center of Christian civilization. And then spread the cancer further in Europe. I concur. I recently had an argument with an 'educated elite' type on another forum who was absolutely convinced that Turkey was 'European' and belonged in the EU. His reasoning was that Constantinople used to be the capital of the Eastern Roman Empire (before it was overrun by Turks, I pointed out.) What a fool.
2005-10-18 21:53 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Quantrill]I concur. I recently had an argument with an 'educated elite' type on another forum who was absolutely convinced that Turkey was 'European' and belonged in the EU. His reasoning was that Constantinople used to be the capital of the Eastern Roman Empire (before it was overrun by Turks, I pointed out.) What a fool.[/QUOTE]I think the most negative press I remember Turkey receiving was from the movie "Midnight Express". Here's a review I read concerning Turkey's continuing Heroin problem.
[URL="http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=5&article_id=19046"]Hard drugs and difficult choices for Turkey[/URL]
By Philip Robins Commentary by Wednesday, October 05, 2005
It may be well over 25 years old but the movie "Midnight Express" still touches a raw nerve with Turkish diplomats. Their complaint is that the film vilified Turkey's human rights record, especially in its prisons, while brushing aside the country's cooperative stance against drug smuggling. Today, with the human rights situation much improved, Ankara's commitment against illicit drugs remains broadly unrecognized in Europe.
Ignorance of Ankara's cooperation against heroin is one very obvious policy area not being taken into account as the EU equivocates about its future relationship with Turkey. This latest bout of agonizing is in addition to that which accompanied the drama surrounding the opening of the membership negotiations themselves. Though the talks and eventual entry were supposed to be a done deal, issues such as European identity, Cyprus and labor migration have recently prompted second thoughts. Any appreciation of the drugs issue is, however, sadly missing from the debate.
The truth of the matter is that for two decades European law enforcement officers contend that some 90 percent of the heroin on the streets of Western Europe has had a Turkish connection. This is opium cultivated in Afghanistan and processed into heroin, in part on Turkish soil. It is then smuggled across Turkish territory by gangs that are based in Turkey. It is distributed in Western Europe, primarily by Turkish nationals. Even as favored routes have shifted around, notably as a result of the post-cold war opening up of Central Asia, a strong Turkish connection has remained a constant.
Law enforcement agencies in countries like Britain, Holland and Germany have found it notoriously difficult to close down such operations. Even specialist police forces tend not to have Turkish speakers on their books. The clannish nature of the Turkish gangs makes infiltration difficult and dangerous. The chains of restaurants and kebab shops, that are used to distribute the heroin, provide a ready-made cover for a drug network. Informants are rare, because of the tribal rules that prevail: violence can easily be meted out to family members back in Turkey.
A further layer of complexity comes with the overlap between such gangs and Turkey's Kurdish problems. Many of the gangs originate in the impoverished Kurdish south-east of Turkey, where the drugs enter the country from Iran. The gangs are obliged to pay a "tax" to whoever controls the territory. Further extortion takes place in Western Europe, where extremist organizations like the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) take a further cut.
With European law enforcement struggling to control the problem, cooperation from the Turkish end is deemed vital. In the early 1990s there was little by way of partnership between the Europeans and the Turkish authorities. The latter was preoccupied with the PKK's violent insurgency. The absence of a serious hard drug problem at home helps explain the shortfall in political will. There was a general lack of institutional and professional contact between Turks and Europeans.
Those shortcomings began to change in the mid-1990s, as the Dutch and German law enforcement sector began building trust through the sharing of information. The Turkish police duly responded and a reciprocal relationship was established. The EU's decision to grant Turkey candidate status at its Helsinki summit in December 1999 gave a further boost to bilateral cooperation. Europeans have even begun to build working relations with Turkey's notoriously opaque Gendarmerie, which is responsible for policing the country's rural areas.
In turn, good relations have been turned into tangible successes. Annual seizures of opiates by Turkish law enforcement are, together with Iran, the highest in the world. Arrests and prosecutions have increased, and some of the most notorious gangs have been dismantled. Much of the corruption that blighted the Turkish state in the early to mid-1990s has been cleaned out. Much, though, has still to be done. Turkey still needs capacity building, especially in its Customs service. Moreover, the rule of thumb is that only between 10 percent and 15 percent of the heroin smuggled is interdicted by the authorities.
Today Euro-Turkish cooperation is on the way to becoming a rare good news story in the fight against hard drugs. But there is no room for complacency. An end to convergence in EU-Turkish relations could easily elicit an ultra-nationalist backlash in Turkey. In such an event, areas of functional cooperation, such as over drugs, would be vulnerable to retaliation. With Turkey not acknowledging a major domestic drug abuse problem, the Europeans continue to be the demandeur on this matter.
European decision-makers and public opinion remain largely ignorant of the advances in cooperation over hard drugs, and their vulnerabilities. The failure in public diplomacy lies with all sides. This helps explain why a symbolic issue relating to the formal recognition of the Nicosia government by Ankara, which has blighted the bilateral atmosphere in advance of the EU talks, has been given so much more attention than the issue of anti-drug cooperation. While the former is virtually of no interest whatsoever in 24 of the 25 EU members, the issue of hard drugs is one that excites people from Portugal to Poland. Perhaps, in view of its growing stand on the illicit drugs issue, Turkish diplomats should be less defensive about "Midnight Express," with its tough approach to smuggling, than continues to be the case.
[I]Philip Robins is a lecturer in politics and international relations at the University of Oxford and a Fellow of St. Antony's College. He is currently engaged on a British Academy-financed research project into illicit drugs in Turkey. He wrote this commentary for The Daily Star.[/I]
2005-10-20 18:34 | User Profile
I generally consider the online book "[B]Antizion: A Survey of Commentary on Organized Jewry By Leading Personalities Through the Ages[/B]" (compiled by William Grimstad) to be a good example of [I]sloppy documentation [/I]with its inprecise quotations and inability to give page numbers and other essentials, but I found this "Anti-Zion" tidbit about "Lawrence of Arabia" to be relatively reliable and intriguing:
[COLOR="Indigo"][FONT="Trebuchet MS"][SIZE="3"][B][U]LAWRENCE, T.E. 20th c. English adventurer[/U].[/B]
He is not appreciated in Jewish quarters for remarking that the so-called Young Turk movement of Turkey was "[B]50 % crypto-Jewish and 95 % Freemason[/B]."
([I][B]B. Liddell-Hart, T.E. Lawrence to His Biographer[/B][/I])[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]
I did a web search and discovered that this biography of Lawrence had been published in [B]1938[/B] - that is, in the period when you were still allowed to make comments like this in public without being kicked out of "polite society"...
[url]http://s1.amazon.com/exec/varzea/ts/exchange-glance/Y01Y2694964Y4690508/058-2550332-8544023[/url]
Petr
2005-10-21 15:29 | User Profile
[QUOTE=madrussian]I am amazed at the people in the West who view Turkey positively. It's been just half a millennium since the Turks eliminated a center of Christian civilization. And then spread the cancer further in Europe.[/QUOTE]
You know, it is only natural for many [B]post-Christian, might-is-right [/B]Europeans to favor powerful Turks over weaker Eastern Christians.
In fact, there is hardly another people in the world that has practised [I]might makes right[/I]-politics more consistently than Turks have - their whole present territory has been stolen from more civilized peoples in the most brutal way possible. The modern state of Turkey is a stark reminder to the world that [B]crime pays.[/B]
Thomas Fleming comments:
[COLOR="Red"][SIZE="3"][FONT="Times New Roman"]"The Fourth Crusade set the pattern for succeeding centuries, when European rulers took one of two approaches: 1) a pragmatic and often cynical desire to use Serbs, Romanians, and Bulgars as cannon fodder against the Turks; 2) an even more cynical and usually futile plot to use the Turks to prevent any Christian rival, whether Western or Eastern, from establishing hegemony within the Balkans. This was the policy of the French against their Hapsburg rivals, and the policy of England against Russia. Part of the motivation behind the French and English policies was Realpolitik; part of it may have simply been envy. [B]But French and English leaders would not have supported The Ottoman Empire, if they were not fundamentally more sympathetic to Islam than to Christianity[/B].
We often think that the Westââ¬â¢s tilt toward Islam began with the post-Christian English adventurersââ¬âLawrence of Arabia, Sir John Glubââ¬âPasha Glub, as he was known, but it is much older. Older than the explorer and pornographer Sir Richard Burton, older than Montesquieu and other Enlightenment philosophers who portrayed Muslims as representatives of a wisdom that surpassed that of Christian Europe. A typical and very influential English example of this tendency is Edward Gibbon, author of [I]The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire[/I], the only English literary classic to take up the conflict between the Byzantine Empire and the Muslims. [B]Gibbon makes no secret of his admiration of the Turks, and he derides both the effeminate Greeks and the crude Franks who went on the First Crusade[/B]. Why?
The simple answer is that Gibbon was a religious skeptic, and like other skeptics of the 18th century, he was irritated by Christian morality that told him to take only one wife, whom he could not divorce. [B]The sensuality of the Muslim view of life and the afterlife and the cynicism of its politics appeals to the imagination of anti-Christian skeptics of every age and, at the very least, prepares them to take the Muslim side in every Balkan war[/B]. Was it merely Realpolitik that caused Benjamin Disraeli to support Turkey against Russia and to turn a blind eye to the sufferings of Balkan Christians? Was it merely sentimentality that caused his rival, William Gladstone, to champion the cause of the Greeks and Serbs. [B]Perhaps it is no accident that Gladstone was a pious Christian and Disraeli was not[/B]."[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]
[url]http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/News/Fleming/NewsTF100203.html[/url]
(Of course, today's American neocons have dutifully followed [I]Marrano [/I]Disraeli's pro-Turkish policies. I wonder why...)
[B]Friedrich Nietszche[/B] followed the attitude described by Fleming "to a T" in his book [I]The Antichrist[/I]:
[FONT="Trebuchet MS"][COLOR="Indigo"][FONT="Garamond"][SIZE="3"]"If Islam despises Christianity, it has a thousandfold right to do so: Islam at least assumes that it is dealing with men. . . .
[B]60.[/B]
"Christianity destroyed for us the whole harvest of ancient civilization, and later it also destroyed for us the whole harvest of [I]Mohammedan[/I] civilization. [B]The wonderful culture of the Moors in Spain, which was fundamentally nearer to us and appealed more to our senses and tastes than that of Rome and Greece, was [I]trampled down /I[/B] Why? Because it had to thank noble and manly instincts for its origin--because it said yes to life, even to the rare and refined luxuriousness of Moorish life! . . . [B]The crusaders later made war on something before which it would have been more fitting for them to have grovelled in the dust[/B]--a civilization beside which even that of our nineteenth century seems very poor and very "senile."--What they wanted, of course, was booty: the orient was rich. . . . Let us put aside our prejudices! The crusades were a higher form of piracy, nothing more! The German nobility, which is fundamentally a Viking nobility, was in its element there: the church knew only too well how the German nobility was to be [I]won[/I] . . . The German noble, always the "Swiss guard" of the church, always in the service of every bad instinct of the church--[I]but well paid.[/I] . . Consider the fact that it is precisely the aid of German swords and German blood and valour that has enabled the church to carry through its war to the death upon everything noble on earth! At this point a host of painful questions suggest themselves. The German nobility stands [I]outside[/I] the history of the higher civilization: the reason is obvious. . . Christianity, alcohol--the two great means of corruption. . . . Intrinsically there should be no more choice between Islam and Christianity than there is between an Arab and a Jew. The decision is already reached; nobody remains at liberty to choose here. Either a man is a Chandala or he is not. . . . [B]"War to the knife with Rome! Peace and friendship with Islam!": this was the feeling, this was the [I]act[/I], of that great free spirit, that genius among German emperors, Frederick II.[/B] What! must a German first be a genius, a free spirit, before he can feel [I]decently[/I]? I can't make out how a German could ever feel [I]Christian[/I]. . . . "[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT]
[url]http://www.fns.org.uk/ac.htm[/url]
Already after the World War I, many post-Christian Frenchmen seem to have also given up any sympathies for the plight of Eastern Christians:
[SIZE="3"][COLOR="Blue"][FONT="Arial"]French sentiments, especially as regards England, are revealed in a work by the French writer, Michel Paillares, entitled [I]Le Khemalism devant Les Allies[/I], published in 1922. Monsieur Paillares is one of the editors of the journal [I]Lââ¬â¢Eclaire[/I] of Paris.
[B]The following quotation is from one of the conversations held by Paillares with French officers at Constantinople, showing their strong pro-Turk, anti-Christian and anti-English feelings[/B]:
[I]ââ¬ÅI am introduced to an officer in command. He is a man all of one piece. He does not mince his words. He is like a man carved out of rock, for he is unmovable in his sympathies and his antipathies. Like the lieutenant of the Navy whom we have already heard, but more furiously still, he is the enemy of the Armenians, the Greeks, the Jews andââ¬âthe English.ââ¬Â
ââ¬Å ââ¬ËAs for me,ââ¬â¢ he snaps, ââ¬Ëthere is not even room for discussion! We ought to be completely, absolutely Turkophilesââ¬âI will say more, Turko-enthusiasts (Turcomanes). [B][U]I love the Mussulmans and I hate their non-Mussulman subjects, who are rubbish[/U].[/B] [B]Assure these brave men their independence and their territorial integrity and we shall have in them the most faithful and the most loyal of allies. [/B]What do we seek here! A rampart against Russia and British imperialism! The maintenance of our prestige! The free development of our commerce, the expansion of our language! The respect of our schools and colleges! The safeguarding of our financial interests! [B]We shall have all that by means of a French-Turkish collaboration. We ought no longer to hear the Jeremiads of the Armenians and the Greeks and the Jews.[/B] We must no longer play the game, neither of England nor of Russia. Russia, although split up by Bolshevism, must always be watched. She has intentions with regard to this country, which we must not encourage. But I do not think that she is an immediate danger. It is Great Britain, which, above all, is becoming troublesome. [B]We are, nearly all of us (French officers) for the Khemalists and against the British and the Greeks[/B].ââ¬Â[/I][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE]
[url]http://www.hri.org/docs/Horton/hb-25.html[/url]
Adolf Hitler seemed to share this attitude as well; after brutally overrunning Yugoslavia and Greece in 1941 he favorably compared Turkey to Yugoslavia:
[FONT="Trebuchet MS"][FONT="Garamond"][SIZE="3"][COLOR="DarkRed"]"[B]The World War actually started from Belgrade[/B]. Nevertheless, the German people, who are by nature so ready to forgive and forget, felt no animosity toward that country. [B]Turkey was our ally in the World War. [/B]The unfortunate outcome of that struggle weighed upon that country just as heavily as it did upon us.
"[B]The great genius who created the new Turkey was the first to set a wonderful example of recovery to our allies whom fortune had at that time deserted and whom fate had dealt so terrible a blow[/B]. Whereas Turkey, thanks to the practical attitude of her leaders, preserved her independence in carrying out her own resolutions, Yugoslavia fell a victim to British intrigue. "[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/FONT]
(Hey, was Führer just praising crypto-Jewish Atatürk?)
[url]http://www.humanitas-international.org/showcase/chronography/speeches/1941-05-04.html[/url]
On just what basis could anti-Christian "New Rightists" oppose Turkey's entrance to EU? Even in a purely racial sense, most Turks are no less White than Sicilians or Bulgarians are.
Petr
2005-10-21 16:57 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Petr][B]The following quotation is from one of the conversations held by Paillares with French officers at Constantinople, showing their strong pro-Turk, anti-Christian and anti-English feelings[/B]:[/QUOTE]
Thank God, there was at least one French naval officer back then who did not share this nihilistic attitude:
[SIZE="3"][FONT="Trebuchet MS"][COLOR="DarkRed"]"[B]I still remember what my father used to tell me when I was young. He had been on a French frigate during the destruction of Smyrna in 1922. The frigate was not able to approach the waterfront because the sea was filled with corpses of slaughtered Greeks. A French landing team found 1,000 patients butchered in Smyrnaââ¬â¢s hospital. That is Turkey.[/B] Perhaps you will respond that a lot of time has passed and that such incidents have been blown away by the wind. However, the wind only changes the picture temporarily, the substrate remains the same and sooner or later the same picture surfaces once again."
[url]http://www.e-grammes.gr/2005/01/lepen_en.htm[/url]
Petr
2005-10-22 01:37 | User Profile
One doesn't have to be Christian to hate Turks and favor whites.
Blood and soil.
2005-10-22 10:11 | User Profile
[QUOTE=madrussian]One doesn't have to be Christian to hate Turks and favor whites. Blood and soil.[/QUOTE]
"Blood and soil" is just a phrase that 19th-century romantics came up with. Without proper spiritual foundation to support it, it is empty and won't prevent cultural assimilation.
Pagan Slavic tribes served, again and again, as allies of Turko-Mongol Avars in their devastating raids to the Byzantine territory, even participating in the siege of Constantinople in 626. (Later on, they did the same as vassals of Turkic Bulgars)
Pagan prince Vladimir came [I]this close [/I]to converting Russians to Islam:
[COLOR="Blue"][FONT="Arial"][B]"According to the medieval chronicle, Prince Vladimir of Kiev announced a kind of confessional auction: Representatives of Islam, Judaism, and Christianity were invited to his court to promote their faiths. [U]The prince almost gave the nod to Islam. He particularly liked its tolerance of polygamy[/U]. But Islam was found wanting on one count: Alcohol was forbidden. Learning this, Vladimir uttered his famous bon mot: "[I]In Rus, we drink to make merry[/I]."[/B][/FONT][/COLOR]
[url]http://archive.sptimes.ru/archive/times/479/opinion/notes.htm[/url]
Albanians are fiercely "blood and soil" people too, but ever since they became Muslims, they have been loyal lackeys of Turks.
Can [I]you [/I]give any examples of mere idea of "blood and soil" making Whites effectively resist Turks? (or any other Afro-Asian invader)
And in what sense are present-day Turks "non-White"? Do you consider Sicilians or Armenians to be White?
Petr
2005-10-22 11:20 | User Profile
And let us list some more recent examples of "blood and soil" people feeling cozy with Islam:
[B]Rudolf von Sebottendorff[/B], the founder of [I]Thule Gesellschaft[/I], the predecessor of Nazi Party:
[B][COLOR="Purple"][SIZE="3"][FONT="Times New Roman"]"[U]Sebottendorff believed that the esoteric tradition of Sufism was the purest stream of wisdom[/U] and that it had nourished European occultism through astrologists, Rosicrucians and authentic freemasons of the Middle Ages. He claimed:
[I]"No one can accuse me of profanation, nor of sacrilege in uncovering the course of these mysteries...It is the means that the communities of dervishes traditionally use in order to acquire special strength by means of unusual techniques. [U]They are, for the most part, men who aspire to the highest rite, that from which come those who have been prepared for their missions as spiritual leaders of Islam[/U]... This high rite is the practical basis of Freemasonry, and it inspired in times past the work of the alchemists and of the Rosicrucians...But to reply to the accusation of my being guilty of some kind of treachery: I say to you plainly that this book has been written on the instructions of the leaders of the Order." 7[/I] [/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/B]
[url]http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/anti-masonry/sebottendorff_r.html[/url]
Some major players in the "New Right" school of thought:
[B][SIZE="3"][FONT="Times New Roman"][COLOR="Navy"]"The late Frithjof Schuon, a Traditionalist who (like (Réne) Guénon) converted to Islam, finding it the best embodiment of the ââ¬Åperennial wisdomââ¬Â, ..."[/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE][/B]
[url]http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/downloads/books/aid.htm#Chapter1Section1SubSection6[/url]
[COLOR="Blue"][SIZE="3"][FONT="Times New Roman"]"Schuon, the son of a German musician resident in Switzerland, had left school at sixteen and later moved to Paris,(43) where an interest in religions(44) led him to read extensively on Hinduism and Buddhism, and finally led him to the works of Guénon. [B]In the early 1930s, Schuon wrote from Paris to Guénon in Cairo, asking him to recommend a 'master.' Guénon replied that he should go to Ahmad ibn Mustafa al-Alawi[/B] (1869-1934), then at Mustaghanim (Algeria).(45)" [/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]
[url]http://www.aucegypt.edu/faculty/sedgwick/tradsuf.htm[/url]
Famous "dog of war," French mercenary [B]Bob Denard[/B]:
[FONT="Times New Roman"][SIZE="3"][COLOR="DarkRed"]"Denard, a former vacuum cleaner salesman and policeman, had seen what a few trained soldiers could do in his various adventures as a mercenary in Katanga, Yemen and Benin. This time he was in charge. He landed quietly at night and proceeded to the palace to find Soilih in bed with three girls watching a pornographic movie. He shot him, and the next morning drove through town with Soilih's body draped over the hood. Denard had with him a black Alsatian. The crowds cheered and Denard became an able leader of the Comoros for 11 years with 12 other white mercenaries. [B]He took a Comoran wife, bought a villa, converted to Islam and became Said Mustapha Madjoub[/B]."[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
[url]http://www.comebackalive.com/df/military/kingclub.htm[/url]
And how could we forget:
[COLOR="DarkGreen"][FONT="Times New Roman"][SIZE="3"]Himmler said:
ââ¬Å [B][I] have nothing against Islam because it educates the men in this division for me and promises them heaven if they fight and are killed in action. A very practical and attractive religion for soldiers[/B].ââ¬Â[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]
[url]http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10[/url]
Hitler said:
[FONT="Times New Roman"][SIZE="3"][COLOR="Red"][B]"Had Charles Martel not been victorious at Poitiers -Already, you see, the world had already fallen into the hands of the Jews, so gutless a thing Christianity!- Then we should in all probability have been converted to Mohammedanism, that cult which glorifies the heroism and which opens up the seventh Heaven to the bold warrior alone. Then the Germanic races would have conquered the world. Christianity alone prevented them from doing so."[/B]
(August 28, 1942)
[I]Hitler's Table Talk; 1941-1944[/I], translated by N. Cameron and R.H. Stevens, Enigma Books (1953)[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
[url]http://www.originaldissent.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18584&page=3&highlight=gosh[/url]
Petr