← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · RowdyRoddyPiper
Thread ID: 20645 | Posts: 24 | Started: 2005-10-14
2005-10-14 03:47 | User Profile
I find the lyrics to "Right where it belongs" by Nine Inch Nails quite creepy for how explicitly they advance the solipsistic Hindu/Buddhist notion that reality is all an illusion and the soul achieves salvation by escaping to the extinction of nirvana. They also capture the suicidal loneliness of feeling "one with everything" and believing that there is nothing outside yourself, because individuality is an illusion, and your consciousness is merged with that of the universe.
Icarus flew too close to the Sun, and melted his wings.
He got too close to the light.
He received too much "enlightenment", and it destroyed his mind.
I don't ever want to feel "one with everything".
Then I will be alone, forever and completely.
Me, myself and I am an unholy trinity.
[CENTER]> [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=5][SIZE=2][B][CENTER]NINE INCH NAILS - "Right Where It Belongs"[/CENTER] [/B][/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT][CENTER]
[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=5][SIZE=2] See the animal in his cage that you built[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=5][SIZE=2] Are you sure what side you're on?[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=5][SIZE=2] Better not look him too closely in the eye[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=5][SIZE=2] Are you sure what side of the glass you are on?[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=5][SIZE=2] See the safety of the life you have built[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=5][SIZE=2] Everything where it belongs[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=5][SIZE=2] Feel the hollowness inside of your heart[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=5][SIZE=2] And it's all[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=5][SIZE=2] Right where it belongs[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=5][SIZE=2] [I][Chorus:][/I][/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=5][SIZE=2] What if everything around you[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=5][SIZE=2] Isn't quite as it seems?[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT] [B][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=5][SIZE=2] What if all the world you think you know[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=5][SIZE=2] Is an elaborate dream?[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT][/B] [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=5][SIZE=2] And if you look at your reflection[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=5][SIZE=2] Is it all you want it to be?[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=5][SIZE=2] What if you could look right through the cracks?[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=5][SIZE=2] Would you find yourself[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=5][SIZE=2] Find yourself afraid to see?[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT]
[B][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=5][SIZE=2] What if all the world's inside of your head[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=5][SIZE=2] Just creations of your own?[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=5][SIZE=2] Your devils and your gods[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=5][SIZE=2] All the living and the dead[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=5][SIZE=2] And you're really all alone?[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT][/B] [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=5][SIZE=2] You can live in this illusion[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=5][SIZE=2] You can choose to believe[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=5][SIZE=2] You keep looking but you can't find the woods[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=5][SIZE=2] While you're hiding in the trees[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=5][SIZE=2] [I][Chorus:][/I][/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=5][SIZE=2] What if everything around you[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=5][SIZE=2] Isn't quite as it seems?[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=5][SIZE=2] What if all the world you used to know[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=5][SIZE=2] Is an elaborate dream?[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=5][SIZE=2] And if you look at your reflection[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=5][SIZE=2] Is it all you want it to be?[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT] [B][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=5][SIZE=2] What if you could look right through the cracks[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=5][SIZE=2] Would you find yourself[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=5][SIZE=2] Find yourself afraid to see?[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT][/B][/CENTER]
[/CENTER]
2005-10-14 04:01 | User Profile
Interesting, Rowdy. Do you remember this thread of mine?[COLOR="Sienna"] [COLOR="Blue"][B] "Black Muslims are an Afrocentric version of Gnosticism"[/B][/COLOR][/COLOR]
[url]http://www.originaldissent.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18201&highlight=%22black+gnosticism%22[/url]
I analyzed a militant rap song that clearly pushes the Gnostic doctrine of self-deification:
[url]http://www.lyricsdepot.com/boogie-down-productions/the-real-holy-place.html[/url]
[COLOR=Blue][SIZE=4][B]The Real Holy Place Lyrics[/B][/SIZE]
[I][B]Artist: Boogie Down Productions Album: Sex And Violence[/B][/I]
Why are metaphysical teachings forbidden? Why are metaphysical teachings forbidden? Why are metaphysical teachings forbidden? The only way to talk to God is in church? Hah hah hah you must be KIDDING [B]For years they kept God hidden Look for God in self not in what's written[/B][/COLOR]
(The typical Gnostic introduction: the truth about the divinity of (Black) man is hidden by malevolent powers)
[COLOR=Blue]Turn this up and listen If your slavemaster wasn't a Christian you wouldn't be a Christian whip cracks If your slavemaster wasn't a Christian you wouldn't be a Christian whip cracks If your slavemaster wasn't a Christian YOU wouldn't be a Christian!!! whip cracks twice Your whole culture's missing Hebrews are African, see they originated Judaism The belief in one God is monotheism, see the truth is not hard All you gotta know is the facts When religion mixes with politics... it ALL GETS WACK You gotta know your history, or they'll tell you that God is a mystery [B]And when you're born, you're born in sin That's bullshit. That's BULLSHIT![/B][/COLOR]
(Take notice. Here is the crucial Gnostic denial of the Original Sin, which obviously contradicts their belief in the divinity of man's soul.)
[COLOR=Blue]They're only saying you can't win You can't succeed, you can't acheive Don't ask about God, just sit there and believe Well I ain't tryin to hear that lesson Cause one thing I know Cause one thing I know Cause one thing I know is that the truth can always be questioned YEAH that's how I'm livin Ask and ye shall be given When you're lyin, hah hah hah, you got no answers You got handclappers and a WHOLE lotta dancers in the church or sanctuary They all forgot Jesus was a revolutionary They all forgot Jesus was a revolutionary They all forgot Jesus was a revolutionary!!! that hung out with criminals [B]I would say read the Bible but it's not the original So it's really misleading[/B][/COLOR]
(Here we have the typical Gnostic denial that the canonical gospels give us reliable information about Jesus Christ. Instead, Gnostics peddle their own mystical scriptures as more trustworthy, like "the Gospel of Thomas")
[COLOR=Blue]If you don't know the history of the author you don't know what you're reading If you DON'T know the history of the author you don't know what you've read You can't taste the nectar That answers the question on why I do lectures Cause where every MC claims to be the teacher, I be DISSIN professors Keep that Bible on your shelf God helps those that help themselves [B]Stop reading from a dead book Stop reading from a dead book for a live God![/B][/COLOR]
(Here we are reminded of Quaker fanatics burning the Bible to emphasize the superiority of their "inner light")
[COLOR=Blue]You know how stupid you look! [B]God reads the Bible with you[/B] You both read the language of the devil that's dissing you What can the next man do with a Bible in his hand that you yourself can't do? Whether Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, or Jew Burning candles don't get you down with the universal crew So why you dress up on Easter and worship a false Mary that looks like Mona Lisa? Hah hah, damn you lost On Christ-mas, what's the purpose of Santa Claus? bells jingle On Christ-mas, what's the purpose of Santa Claus? bells keep jingling On Christmas what's the purpose of Santa Claus!!! Or Saint Nickalaus, I'm sick of this wickedness All revolutionaries check this I'm not synthetic I'm not anti-Christian, anti-Muslim, anti-Buddhist, or anti-Semetic [B]But I will set it off in the temple[/B] [B]Cause the real holy place is mental[/B]
COLOR=Black[/COLOR]
The real holy place is mental The real holy place is mental starts echoing The real holy place is mental echoing a lot The real holy place is mental! The real holy place is mental!!! Mental-physical, metaphysical[/COLOR]
Petr
2005-10-14 04:14 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Petr]Interesting, Rowdy. Do you remember this thread of mine?[/QUOTE]Yes I do Petr. I seem to remember you posting something about the Beetles and their connection to mystical and occult beliefs, but I couldn't find it with the search.
2005-10-14 04:26 | User Profile
I just mentioned that Beatles songs like[I] Strawberry Fields Forever [/I]are [B]obviously[/B] Gnostic and show just how far the mainstreaming of Oriental occultism has gotten in the West today.
[FONT="Arial"][SIZE="5"]Strawberry Fields Forever[/SIZE]
Let me take you down, ââ¬ËCos Iââ¬â¢m going to Strawberry Fields. [B]Nothing is real And nothing to get hungabout.[/B] Strawberry Fields forever. [B] Living is easy with eyes closed Misunderstanding all you see.[/B] Itââ¬â¢s getting to be someone. But it all works out, It doesnââ¬â¢t matter much to me. Let me take you down, ââ¬ËCos Iââ¬â¢m going to Strawberry Fields. Nothing is real And nothing to get hungabout. Strawberry Fields forever.
No one I think is in my tree, I mean it must be high or low. That is you canââ¬â¢t you know tune in. But itââ¬â¢s all right. That is I think itââ¬â¢s not too bad. Let me take you down, ââ¬ËCos Iââ¬â¢m going to Strawberry Fields. Nothing is real And nothing to get hungabout. Strawberry Fields forever. [B] Always, no sometimes, I think itââ¬â¢s me, But you know I know when itââ¬â¢s a dream[/B]. I think I know I mean a ââ¬ËYesââ¬â¢. But itââ¬â¢s all wrong. That is I think I disagree. Let me take you down, ââ¬ËCos Iââ¬â¢m going to Strawberry Fields. Nothing is real And nothing to get hungabout. Strawberry Fields forever. Strawberry Fields forever.[/FONT]
In its own way, this song is almost as creepy as that one by NIN...
Petr
2005-10-14 04:46 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Petr]In its own way, this song is almost as creepy as that one by NIN...[/QUOTE]Yes, they are creepy. I don't understand the appeal of Eastern religions to the "peace & love" crowd. They all seem very much like nihilism to me. Why would anyone want to achieve salvation through "extinction" or "annihilation" when they can achieve it through life & love in Christ?
Also, what do you think of "flying into the Sun" as a metaphor for identifying oneself with God, i.e. self-deification? I've always wondered if that's what the myth of Icarus and Daedelus is really about.
2005-10-14 05:10 | User Profile
I'm not a NIN fan, but those lyrics above are quite good, actually. They underscore the simple fact that human beings cannot know absolute truths about existence, and no religion can provide those truths (though most people foolishly think otherwise because it's a very comforting delusion).
The idea that our life experiences are an illusion isn't necessarily confined to any particular religion. Most thinking people have considered possibilities along those lines even without having any knowledge of Hinduism, Gnosticism or other "distant" religions. I used to ask myself questions like that even as a young child. It's really just the result of natural curiosity.
2005-10-14 07:16 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Angler]I'm not a NIN fan, but those lyrics above are quite good, actually. They underscore the simple fact that human beings cannot know absolute truths about existence, and no religion can provide those truths (though most people foolishly think otherwise because it's a very comforting delusion).
The idea that our life experiences are an illusion isn't necessarily confined to any particular religion. Most thinking people have considered possibilities along those lines even without having any knowledge of Hinduism, Gnosticism or other "distant" religions. I used to ask myself questions like that even as a young child. It's really just the result of natural curiosity.[/QUOTE] I don't think it's "evil" to question the nature of human existence (I've done so myself, as I'm sure most people have), but that doesn't mean that I can't have opinions (including moral judgements) about the conclusions that people come to in their contemplations. Solipcism is a retreat into the self, away from God, and the result is nihilism. I can't prove 100% beyond doubt that God exists, but put it this way, I'm pretty sure that my consciousness is not the totality of existence. If you are consciously aware of your subjective experience of reading these words then it's proof that I'm right :wink:, but then how can you be sure that YOUR mind is not the totality of existence?
Also, I'm not 100% sure that Trent Reznor was consciously trying to advocate Gnosticism as a formal doctrine, but the lyrics can still be described as such.
2005-10-14 13:47 | User Profile
[quote=Angler]They underscore the simple fact that human beings cannot know absolute truths about existence, and no religion can provide those truths (though most people foolishly think otherwise because it's a very comforting delusion). Angler, Aren't you advancing the thesis 'no religion can provide those truths' as an 'absolute truth about existence'? If so, doesn't your statement contradict itself?
2005-10-14 15:21 | User Profile
Typical for Gnosticism is also [B]misanthropy[/B] - many medieval Gnostic sects opposed spawning new human beings into this wretched world. They also identified nature with god (pantheism).
The Biblical God, on the other hand, commands us to [B]have dominion[/B] over nature and fill the earth.
Many modern eco-fascists (like my fellow Finn Pentti Linkola) have become famous for some incredibly anti-human proclamations, carrying on the Gnostic tradition.
[I]Faux[/I]-Fascist Techno group "Laibach" has this song [I]Kingdom of God[/I], where they portray a messianic vision of earth without human beings:
[COLOR="Red"][FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="5"]Kingdom Of God[/SIZE]
[SIZE="3"]by Laibach
Album: Jesus Christ Superstars
On the last day of God's creation Blood will flow from stone Eathquakes will destroy Your nation And swallow the king's throne And flood will follow fire To wash away the stains [B]So finally he can rest in peace Now nothing of man remains[/B]
In the kingdom of God The kingdom of God
Now time was man's invention For regulating his ways But time has lost its meaning In cities of eternal days And every city became Sodom Man bore the mark of Cain Until God raised atomic fire Now nothing of man remains
In the kingdom of God The kingdom of God
[B]Now the last traces fade away Of his creation gone wrong[/B] Fish return to the rivers And whales sing their ocean song The bears roam in the mountains And buffaloes roam the plains Eagles fly in freedom Now nothing of man remains
In the kingdom of God The kingdom of God
Let silence be the music That settles on the Earth And thunger be the rhythm That drowns man's last words And let melody be the sound Of the wind and the lashing rain [B]Blowing away man's harmonies Until nothing of him remains[/B]
In the kingdom of God The kingdom of God
So nothing of man remains In the kingdom of God The kingdom of God[/SIZE][/FONT] [/COLOR]
This tidbit from a review of this album confirms that they do have a Gnostic worldview:
[COLOR="Blue"][FONT="Arial"][B]"Laibach have a definite shared view on God's role in the world: (From their website) "We believe in God, but we do not necessarily trust him."[/B][/FONT][/COLOR]
[url]http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000003Z4K/qid=1129303094/sr=1-14/ref=sr_1_14/103-1517695-5386261?v=glance&s=music[/url]
Petr
2005-10-24 21:26 | User Profile
[QUOTE=RowdyRoddyPiper]I find the lyrics to "Right where it belongs" by Nine Inch Nails quite creepy for how explicitly they advance the solipsistic Hindu/Buddhist notion that reality is all an illusion and the soul achieves salvation by escaping to the extinction of nirvana. They also capture the suicidal loneliness of feeling "one with everything" and believing that there is nothing outside yourself, because individuality is an illusion, and your consciousness is merged with that of the universe.[CENTER] [/CENTER][/QUOTE]
I just re-discovered this great citation from G.K. Chesterton that I think really captures your idea:
[SIZE="3"][FONT="Garamond"][COLOR="Blue"]'If I were to say that Christianity came into the world specially to destroy the doctrine of the Inner Light, that would be an exaggeration. But it would be very much nearer to the truth... [B]Of all conceivable forms of enlightenment the worst is what these people call the Inner Light. Of all horrible religions the most horrible is the worship of the god within. [/B]Any one who knows any body knows how it would work; anyone who knows anyone from the Higher Thought Centre knows how it does work. That Jones shall worship the god within him turns out ultimately to mean that Jones shall worship Jones... [B]Christianity came into the world firstly in order to assert with violence that a man had not only to look inwards, but to look outwards, to behold with astonishment and enthusiasm a divine company and a divine captain. [/B]The only fun of being a Christian was that a man was not left alone with the Inner Light, but definitely recognised an outer light, fair as the sun, clear as the moon, terrible as an army with banners'. [/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]
[url]http://www.diakrisis.org/evanmyst.htm[/url]
Petr
2005-10-25 02:16 | User Profile
[QUOTE]I just mentioned that Beatles songs like[I] Strawberry Fields Forever [/I]are [B]obviously[/B] Gnostic and show just how far the mainstreaming of Oriental occultism has gotten in the West today.[/QUOTE]
Are you sure it just isn't the influence of drugs?
2005-10-25 02:25 | User Profile
Drugs and occultism have always had a nice little symbiotic relationship going on, they do not exclude each other:
[SIZE="5"][B][COLOR="DarkRed"][COLOR="Blue"] Drug Abuse/Sorceries[/COLOR][/COLOR][/B][/SIZE]
[url]http://www.metrocast.net/~moza/drug.htm[/url]
[B][COLOR="DarkRed"][SIZE="3"][FONT="Times New Roman"]"...for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries (pharmakeia) were all nations deceived." -- Revelation 18:23[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/B]
Petr
2005-10-25 02:27 | User Profile
[QUOTE=robinder]Are you sure it just isn't the influence of drugs?[/QUOTE]
Drugs and occultism have always had a nice little symbiotic relationship going on, they do not exclude each other:
[SIZE="5"][B][COLOR="DarkRed"][COLOR="Blue"]Drug Abuse/Sorceries[/COLOR][/COLOR][/B][/SIZE]
[url]http://www.metrocast.net/~moza/drug.htm[/url]
[B][COLOR="DarkRed"][SIZE="3"][FONT="Times New Roman"]"...for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries (pharmakeia) were all nations deceived." -- Revelation 18:23[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/B]
Petr
2005-10-25 02:47 | User Profile
[quote=Petr][SIZE=3][FONT=Garamond][COLOR=Blue]'If I were to say that Christianity came into the world specially to destroy the doctrine of the Inner Light, that would be an exaggeration. But it would be very much nearer to the truth... [B]Of all conceivable forms of enlightenment the worst is what these people call the Inner Light. Of all horrible religions the most horrible is the worship of the god within. [/B]Any one who knows any body knows how it would work; anyone who knows anyone from the Higher Thought Centre knows how it does work. That Jones shall worship the god within him turns out ultimately to mean that Jones shall worship Jones... [B]Christianity came into the world firstly in order to assert with violence that a man had not only to look inwards, but to look outwards, to behold with astonishment and enthusiasm a divine company and a divine captain. [/B]The only fun of being a Christian was that a man was not left alone with the Inner Light, but definitely recognised an outer light, fair as the sun, clear as the moon, terrible as an army with banners'.[/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]
Great quote.
From your second link:
[QUOTE]Strong's Greek Dictionary of the New Testament
5331 pharmakeia; from 5332; medication ("pharmacy"), i.e. (by extension) magic (literally or figuratively):--sorcery, witchcraft
5332 pharmakeus; from pharmakon (a drug, i.e. spell-giving potion); a druggist ("pharmacist") or poisoner, i.e. (by extension) a magician:--sorcerer.[/QUOTE]One word that springs to mind that connects these two concepts is "witchdoctor". Witchdoctor is a good word for drug dealers IMHO. So is "Dr Feelgood".
2005-10-25 02:52 | User Profile
[B]I'm Your Witch Doctor - Eric Clapton[/B]
I'm your witchdoctor, got the evil eye, Got the power of the devil, I'm the conjuror guy. Gonna teach you love at the midnight hour, Gonna feel you burning like a passion flower.
Hey hey, hey hey hey, hey. Hey hey, hey hey hey, hey. Your witchdoctor, your witchdoctor, got my eyes on you.
I was born in the country and I lived in the trees. I got my voodoo from the birds and the bees. Gonna teach you love at the midnight hour, Gonna feel you burning, little passion flower.
Hey hey, hey hey hey, hey. Hey hey, hey hey hey, hey. Your witchdoctor, your witchdoctor, got my eyes on you.
I'm your witchdoctor, got the evil eye, Got the power of the devil, I'm the conjuror guy. Gonna teach you love at the midnight hour, Gonna feel you burning like a passion flower.
2005-10-25 11:35 | User Profile
[IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/67/Pepper's.jpg/300px-Pepper's.jpg[/IMG] Can you find Alestair Crowley and Karl Marx ?
2005-10-28 13:42 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Quantrill]Angler, Aren't you advancing the thesis 'no religion can provide those truths' as an 'absolute truth about existence'? If so, doesn't your statement contradict itself?[/QUOTE]Not at all. It isn't a contradiction, since the syllogism you are using is not the syllogism he was using. This is more like it: "the infinite cannot be known by the finite, it cannot be described or named or quantified, therefore claims to the contrary are false." No contradiction there; no claim to know the absolute truth about existence, merely pointing out the fallacy of those who make such claims, using their own premises.
2005-11-04 16:47 | User Profile
[quote=albion][IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/67/Pepper%27s.jpg/300px-Pepper%27s.jpg[/IMG] Can you find Alestair Crowley and Karl Marx ?
are they in there?
2005-11-04 17:47 | User Profile
[quote=grep14w]Not at all. It isn't a contradiction, since the syllogism you are using is not the syllogism he was using. This is more like it: "the infinite cannot be known by the finite, it cannot be described or named or quantified, therefore claims to the contrary are false." No contradiction there; [B]no claim to know the absolute truth about existence[/B], merely pointing out the fallacy of those who make such claims, using their own premises. That's all well and good, except that I think you have changed his assertion, not simply restated it. He originally wrote -- [quote=Angler]They underscore the simple fact that [B]human beings cannot know absolute truths about existence[/B], and no religion can provide those truths (though most people foolishly think otherwise because it's a very comforting delusion). He is explicitly stating, as an absolute truth, that human beings cannot know absolute truth. That is a paradox. You are merely stating that what is finite is inadequate to the task of comprehending the infinite, an assertion with which I do not disagree.
2005-11-04 23:54 | User Profile
[quote=albion][IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/67/Pepper%27s.jpg/300px-Pepper%27s.jpg[/IMG] Can you find Alestair Crowley and Karl Marx ? For some reason the picture wasn't showing up for me when you first posted it. :confused:
Is that Marx two up and one to the right of George Harrison? I can't find Crowley.
2005-11-07 00:35 | User Profile
me neither....
2005-11-07 07:30 | User Profile
Sorry for the late reply, I often get involved in other things and forget about threads...
[QUOTE=Quantrill]Angler, Aren't you advancing the thesis 'no religion can provide those truths' as an 'absolute truth about existence'? If so, doesn't your statement contradict itself?[/QUOTE] Okay, here's my statement again:
I'm not a NIN fan, but those lyrics above are quite good, actually. They underscore the simple fact that human beings cannot know absolute truths about existence, and no religion can provide those truths (though most people foolishly think otherwise because it's a very comforting delusion).
The statement I made did admittedly contain some unspoken premises -- for example, the premise that human beings exist to begin with! (There is no way to prove that they do -- for example, I might be nothing more than some kind of brain hooked up to some alien's computer, and all other people might be part of a mere simulation, as in The Matrix.) So you make a good point, and I'll clarify some things now because my last post was quick and dirty.
I do believe in absolute reality/truth. But the only "absolute truths" I think I as a conscious being can possibly know for certain are (1) that I exist ("I think, therefore I am"), (2) that I can't know anything else for certain.
I don't see how I can know any more than that. What if I am just a disembodied brain in a Matrix-type computer simulation, as described above? How can I know otherwise? How can you? What tests can be done to show the contrary? Hell, I can't even know that the laws of physics are what I think they are. What if they're just part of the simulation? What if objects fall upward in the "real world"?
Now people are going to say that they know absolute truths about God, for goodness' sake? On the basis of a book or "eyewitnesses"? There is no shortage of "eyewitnesses" to UFO abductions. It's amazing what people will believe just because they want to.
I'm not claiming that we live in a computer simulation or even that it's likely, although it is a possibility, and it demonstrates the reason why I make the statement I made.
As for the reality we think we know, it's enormously complex and mysterious, and people are really just "picking pebbles at a boundless ocean," as someone once said. The more a person learns about nature (especially the more esoteric branches of physics, such as quantum field theory, which is also the best-confirmed branch of physics), the more likely he is to understand that the universe could be self-existent and every bit as mysterious as the God people use to explain what science can't yet explain.
The old cliche that goes something like, "The wiser a man is, the less he realizes he knows," isn't quite "absolute truth," but it comes close. :)
2005-11-07 07:45 | User Profile
[quote=Angler]"I think, therefore I am" Let me play Devil's court-appointed attorney here...
I know this is just Descarte's famous "cogito ergo sum", but I've always thought it was a bit weak. If you look closely, it's actually a circular argument, because the conclusion is assumed in the premise. By saying "I think", you are assuming you exist. But you can't do that in your premise because that's what you are trying to prove in your conclusion!
I think (premise)
therefore
I am (conclusion)
How are you so sure that you think, that you can state with confidence "I think"? How do you know that some other entity is not doing the thinking and you are vicariously experiencing its thoughts, deluding yourself that you have control over them?
Angler, I assert that you don't exist.
You are the imagination of yourself, and the rest of us are just encouraging you in your delusion by addressing you with a proper name. You don't exist, because the "I" that is the subject of your assertion is an illusory construct based around an arbitrary division between your "self" and the rest of the universe. This division is not scientifically valid, because there is no rational location for you to place the boundary where your "self" ends and the rest of the universe begins. There is no "you", only the indivisible unity of the universe (a small section of which is currently deluding itself into believing that it's you).
Now that you've read this, you will have disappeared. Bye now! :clap:
2005-11-07 15:57 | User Profile
[quote=Angler] The statement I made did admittedly contain some [B]unspoken premises -- for example, the premise that human beings exist to begin with![/B] (There is no way to prove that they do -- for example, I might be nothing more than some kind of brain hooked up to some alien's computer, and all other people might be part of a mere simulation, as in [I]The Matrix[/I].) So you make a good point, and I'll clarify some things now because my last post was quick and dirty.
I do believe in absolute reality/truth. But the only "absolute truths" I think I as a conscious being can possibly know for certain are (1) that I exist ("I think, therefore I am"), (2) that I can't know anything else for certain. Angler, I appreciate your intellectual honesty, because you are willing to admit that your worldview is based on certain assumptions about reality. Because nothing, not even our own existence, can truly be 'proven', one simply must make certain assumptions in order to have a foundation upon which to build one's entire view of reality and the universe. Because these assumptions cannot be proven, they must be accepted without proof, or in other words, they must be accepted on faith. Consequently, even the most rationalist, agnostic scientist is arriving at this conclusions using methods based, at the most fundamental level, on faith, such as the faith that he does, in fact, exist, the faith that he can make accurate observations of his surroundings, and the faith that he can then apply his rational faculties to those observations to arrive at meaningful conclusions. Since everyone must, then, begin with certain assumptions that are based on faith, it becomes a matter of great importance what assumptions one chooses to make.