← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · Petr
Thread ID: 20313 | Posts: 23 | Started: 2005-09-20
2005-09-20 23:19 | User Profile
Algerians are the greatest ethnic group among the French Muslim population.
I post stuff like this to counter the simplistic neocon "sky-is-falling" squawking that Europe is on the brink of being Islamized and turned into a Caliphate.
For one thing, we Euros are [B]not[/B] going to just roll over and let it happen, no matter what scaremongering neocons may tell you.
(See this thread: [url]http://www.originaldissent.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19065&page=2&pp=15&highlight=wolfgang[/url]
Just because we may not be all that upset for Israel's security doesn't mean that we are totally lacking self-preservation instincts when it comes to our own countries.
Yes, this is the childish fantasy that judeocon media is pushing: just because it wouldn't break our hearts seeing Muslims overrunning Israel, it must mean that we don't take the Muslim threat seriously at all!
(Similar to the "[I]anti-semitism equals anti-americanism[/I]"-meme that they are pushing)
And secondly, as this stuff below shows, not nearly all Muslim immigrants are fanatical jihadists, ready for martyrdom for Allah and wishing to make missionary work for Islam. They are in fact well on their way of becoming obedient little consumerist zombies.
[url]http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2005/07/on-french-muslims-and-apostates.php[/url]
[COLOR=DarkRed][FONT=Georgia]"In any case, I will leave you with a little data from [B]Leaving Islam: Apostates Speak Out[/B][/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=Blue] [FONT=Arial] ...In 1995 the French daily Liberation conducted a thorough survey. Here are some of its findings:[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS][SIZE=3][B]Thirty percent of those men born in France and both of whose parents were born in Algeria declared themselves to be without any religion. This percentage is higher than the national average: 27 percent of all Frenchmen describes as without any religion. [/B]Sixty percent of those men born in France with only one parent born in Algeria declared themselves to be without religion, more than double the national average! [B]The figures for women remain almost unchanged: 30 percent born in France and both of whose parents were born in Algeria said they were without religion. This precentage is even higher than the national average: 20 percent of all Frenchwomen say they are without religion. [/B]Fifty-eight percent of women with one parent born in Algeria said they were without any religion, almost three times the national average.6[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]
[B] [FONT=Arial]The notation is: Immigration Supplement, La Libération, Paris, March 22, 1995, p. 5. [/FONT][/B]
Howling Privateer, would you agree with these estimates?
Petr
2005-09-21 00:22 | User Profile
A good point. [QUOTE]Algerian immigrants in France are even less religious than Frenchmen in average[/QUOTE]
On the same topic, the Mexicans coming into America are less religious than the average white American.
2005-09-21 00:54 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Petr]Algerians are the greatest ethnic group among the French Muslim population.
I post stuff like this to counter the simplistic neocon "sky-is-falling" squawking that Europe is on the brink of being Islamized and turned into a Caliphate.
[/QUOTE]Well really I always got the impression that concern about Islamic immigration into Europe was a paleocon notion, not a neocon one. But that's a little confused.
In any event, what interests most observers studying muslim immigrant groups in Europe, or at least what usually catches your attention, is not how often they go to the mosque. Its how often they commit violent crimes, riot, join gangs and join terrorist groups. Or just identify with their adopted vs. ancestral country. And the statistics here seem quite compelling overall that the "second-generation" ones do quite worse than the 1st generation ones.
Not unlike second-generationers in our own country incidentally.
So it certainly seems that one does not move closer to Europe merely by renouncing the Moslem God. What does the Bible say about the demons cast out of a man?
2005-09-21 00:56 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Faust]A good point.
On the same topic, the Mexicans coming into America are less religious than the average white American.[/QUOTE] Well I'd heard in California it wasn't that way, that Mexicans go to church more than anglo-Californians. But for the rest of the country - quite possibly it's true.
2005-09-21 02:01 | User Profile
As much as I support Muslim self determination in their respective countries, they should be deported immediately from Europe. Period.
Plus, when they get the frig out, then I can move in :lol:
Also, in France, they still have national holidays (days off work) for all the Roman Catholic holy days. :punk:
2005-09-21 02:38 | User Profile
[QUOTE] Plus, when they get the frig out, then I can move in[/QUOTE] French law allows for anyone born in the former French Empire to obtain some sort of facilitated preference for citizenship. Depending on where you were born, you might qualify. I do myself, though I don't intend on taking advantage.
2005-09-21 02:45 | User Profile
I thought only Freepers believed in this kind of stuff: [QUOTE=Okiereddust]Well I'd heard in California it wasn't that way, that Mexicans go to church more than anglo-Californians. But for the rest of the country - quite possibly it's true.[/QUOTE]
2005-09-21 03:55 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Okiereddust]Well I'd heard in California it wasn't that way, that Mexicans go to church more than anglo-Californians. But for the rest of the country - quite possibly it's true.[/QUOTE] But remember their version of Catholisism is one of pagan/voodoo/chicken dancin Catholicism.
I believe the French claim Catholicism as their national religion. So they do get all the holidays off.
2005-09-21 11:51 | User Profile
[FONT=Arial][COLOR=Blue][B][I] - "Well really I always got the impression that concern about Islamic immigration into Europe was a paleocon notion, not a neocon one. But that's a little confused."[/I][/B][/COLOR][/FONT]
Believe me, David Horowitz's FrontPage, Daniel Pipes's website and Little Green Footballs forum are full of horror stories about the coming Islamization of Europe, their basic attitude being "those degenerate Euros are done for".
Petr
2005-09-21 12:19 | User Profile
[QUOTE=robinder]French law allows for anyone born in the former French Empire to obtain some sort of facilitated preference for citizenship. Depending on where you were born, you might qualify. I do myself, though I don't intend on taking advantage.[/QUOTE]
Would this include those living in the former Empire of Louis's 14-16 and Napoleon...the Ohio Valley and lands of the Louisiana Purchase?
2005-09-21 13:05 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Howard Campbell, Jr.]Would this include those living in the former Empire of Louis's 14-16 and Napoleon...the Ohio Valley and lands of the Louisiana Purchase?[/QUOTE] Yes, it does. The French Empire in North America was something like a large umbrella, it covered much but touched little, in most places they didn't leave much more than place names. Therefore, it is easy to forgot that huge sections of the USA were once French land.
2005-09-21 13:13 | User Profile
And as always following secularization, fertility drops. Here you can find a detailed description on the falling birthrates of North African immigrants in France:
[url]http://www.livejournal.com/users/rfmcdpei/408410.html[/url]
[COLOR=Purple][SIZE=3][FONT=Arial]"The French Muslim community, after all, is barely more than a generation old. [B]In Tunisia, fertility rates have fallen below the levels needed to sustain the population over the long term; Algeria and Morocco, Turkey and Tunisia, are not much further behind[/B]. There isnââ¬â¢t any more reason to assume that French Muslim fertility rates will remain above replacement rate, after all, than there was to expect Western fertility rates to remain above replacement level. If anything, quite conceivably Maghrebin fertility rates could fall far below replacement levels. Societies with a certain minimal level of female autonomy, fairly low living standards, and access to contraceptive technologies can have rather low birth rates despite being generally conservative--look at Romania and Bulgaria, for instance, or Poland and China, or even Italy and Spain.[B] It isnââ¬â¢t difficult to imagine a situation where, one day, the countries on the southern shore of the Mediterranean will have a lower fertility rate than the countries on the northern shore of the Mediterranean[/B].[/FONT][/SIZE]
...
[SIZE=3][FONT=Arial]"Since 1980, fertility rates for all of these populations have dropped as INSEE confirms (French-language PDF link) in its May 2003 article [I]"La fécondité des étrangères en France : une stabilisation entre 1990 et 1999." [/I] The introductory paragraph says it all:
[I]Comme en 1990, les étrangères vivant en France en 1999 ont en moyenne 3 enfants. Les Espagnoles et les Italiennes ont toujours moins d enfants que les Françaises, et les Africaines restent les plus fécondes. Plus l'immigration est ancienne, plus le comportement des étrangères tend àêtre proche de celui des Françaises. Comme les Françaises, les étrangères deviennent mères plus tard qu auparavant. Le calendrier des naissances des Algériennes et des Marocaines, qui était déjàvoisin de celui des Françaises, évolue peu. Celui des Tunisiennes se rapproche de celui des Françaises.[/I]
My English translation:
[I][B]As in 1990, foreigners living in France in 1999 have on average three children[/B]. The Spanish and Italians have fewer children than Frenchwoman, and Africans remain the most fertile. The older the immigration, the closer the behaviour of the foreigners is close to that of Frenchwomen. [B]Like the French, the foreigners become mothers later than before. The schedule of births of Algerians and Moroccans, already close to that of Frenchwomen, has changed little. That of Tunisians approaches that of Frenchwomen[/B].[/I][/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]
(I believe that "Africans" in the paragraph above refers to more recent Black African immigrants, not to earlier Maghreb Arab/Berber immigrants)
Petr
2005-09-21 13:15 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Okiereddust]... Or just identify with their adopted vs. ancestral country. And the statistics here seem quite compelling overall that the "second-generation" ones do quite worse than the 1st generation ones.
Not unlike second-generationers in our own country incidentally.
So it certainly seems that one does not move closer to Europe merely by renouncing the Moslem God. What does the Bible say about the demons cast out of a man?[/QUOTE] Good points, Okie. While I'm glad to see that most Algerians in France are not jihadists, they still most assuredly think of themselves as Algerian and culturally Muslim. In any conflict between their native culture and Europe, they will take the side of their native culture, regardless of how irreligious they have become.
2005-09-21 13:26 | User Profile
Howling Privateer, would you agree with these estimates?
Libération is a left-wing newspaper, but I do agree. I think figures should be even higher among Tunisians, but lower among Moroccans who are the most religious North-Africans. As a whole, the Muslim population in France doesn't really radicalize as in UK, let's say it "mexicanizes" (slightly deviant behavior). And no, there's no political takeover of France by Muslims, not a single Arab representative is sitting in the Assembly ( [url]http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/12/tribun/comm3.asp[/url] ).
I believe the French claim Catholicism as their national religion. So they do get all the holidays off.
France doesn't have a national religion. Most French are indeed Catholics, with various levels of faith. I remember that in the army, when officers asked to draftees for their personal faith about food habits, I was among the very few who stated they didn't have any religion. I know that agnosticism may shock Americans sometimes, but I was educated in such a way.
French law allows for anyone born in the former French Empire to obtain some sort of facilitated preference for citizenship. Depending on where you were born, you might qualify. I do myself, though I don't intend on taking advantage.
You can if you have a French grandfather and a proof for his marriage, otherwise it's far more complicated. It is supposed to be a favourable condition, but actually that doesn't help much Africans or Arabs to whom are asked other conditions like turning their name into a French one, something they refuse of course. So theorically, if you were born in one of the former French possessions (this would qualify one third of the US population), you can benefit by it but not as automatic rule. I would say one can forget about it. In practice, you must live in France most of the time since 5 years, have most of your incomes in France, and speak a somewhat acceptable French. As a whole, it's easy for Whites, even non-UE citizens, they just have to ask, fill plenty of official papers, and wait. "Real integration" is asked for others and that could mean many things. Anyway, residence cards are automatically renewed.
[url]http://www.southern-cross-group.org/anothercitizenship/france.html[/url] [url]http://www.americansinfrance.net/QAndA/French_citizenship_via_ancestors_from_France.cfm[/url] [url]http://www.americansinfrance.net/DailyLife/French_Citizenship.cfm[/url] [url]http://www.totalfrance.com/france/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7027[/url] [url]http://www.totalfrance.com/france/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1509[/url]
2005-09-21 13:27 | User Profile
[COLOR=Purple][FONT=Arial][B][I] - "While I'm glad to see that most Algerians in France are not jihadists, they still most assuredly think of themselves as Algerian and culturally Muslim."[/I][/B][/FONT][/COLOR]
That's true. I believe they will more or less follow the pattern of Jewish immigrants in USA - 10-20 % of them will remain as hardcore orthodox believers who will inhabit segregated ghettoes while majority of them will become merely "cultural Muslims" and will unfortunately mix with irreligious Frenchmen in great cities, just like secular American Jews tend to mix with Christians who don't take their religion seriously.
Petr
2005-09-21 13:32 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Petr]That's true. I believe they will more or less follow the pattern of Jewish immigrants in USA - 10-20 % of them will remain as hardcore orthodox believers who will inhabit segregated ghettoes while majority of them will become merely "cultural Muslims" and will unfortunately mix with irreligious Frenchmen in great cities, just like secular American Jews tend to mix with Christians who don't take their religion seriously.[/QUOTE] I see more miscegenation with Africans than with Arabs, although the firsts are greatly outnumbered. Arabs love their women usually, while Blacks don't.
2005-09-21 13:40 | User Profile
[FONT=Arial][COLOR=Red][B][I] - "And no, there's no political takeover of France by Muslims, not a single Arab representative is sitting in the Assembly "[/I][/B][/COLOR][/FONT]
Nice to hear this Privateer, for this certainly seems to differ from the situation in the UK - I think there are already Muslims in the House of the Lords!
[SIZE=4][B]"Lord Nazir Ahmed"[/B][/SIZE]
[url]http://www.pakistandost.com/lordnazir.htm[/url]
Petr
2005-09-21 13:52 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Petr]Nice to hear this Privateer, for this certainly seems to differ from the situation in the UK - I think there are already Muslims in the House of the Lords![/QUOTE] I think that members of the House of Lords are not elected by the people, and therefore it's easier to pour non-Whites in. In the same way, we do have "French" Muslims in the European Parliament, which depends on the proportional system. In a two-run election, they've not a chance for victory.
2005-09-21 13:56 | User Profile
One response on that thread below that I linked to does indeed point out that British Muslims are overall pushier and less assimilated than the German or French ones - perhaps because they are mainly from South Asia and thus ever farther away from the European culture (and less White) than the Muslims living on the shores of Mediterranean:
[url]http://www.livejournal.com/users/rfmcdpei/408410.html[/url] [COLOR=Blue][FONT=Garamond][SIZE=3] ...
It's true that the Algerians and other Muslim North Africans in France are largely adopting the habits of native French both in fertility and in their customs and home life. [B]But that's much less true in Britain. The UK's 2 million Muslims (recent estimate) of course hail from many different countries, but the majority come from Pakistan, India, and Bangladesh. Their TFRs, unlike those of Arabs in France, have not dropped appreciably and in fact remain well above those of the general population [/B] (TFR's often 3 times as high as those of native population and other immigrant groups). Britain may well be exceptional in this case b/c most other European countries do follow the French model for their Muslim populations; [B]in Germany e.g., the Turks in many cases have become so "Germanized" that their extended families can't really communicate with them when they return to Turkey, and have birth rates in some places even lower than that of native Germans overall.[/B] (And as you note, most immigrants to Germany are from other European nations.) Ditto for Muslims in Spain and Italy. [B]But for whatever reason, South Asian Muslim communities in Britain remain much stronger, and in fact recent stats suggest that British mosques are seeing higher overall attendance than churches, and "Mohammed" is becoming one of the most common names for newborn males in the country.[/B] I still think that alarmism is not warranted here, but in the UK at least the Muslim proportion of the population (further fueled by e.g. converts among the Afro-Caribbean and even native white populations) seems to be growing more robustly than in other European countries.
Wes Ulm [url]http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~ulm[/url][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]
Petr
2005-09-21 15:06 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Howling Privateer]And no, there's no political takeover of France by Muslims, not a single Arab representative is sitting in the Assembly [/QUOTE]
Now, that's pretty awesome. I always noticed the French Senate to be 100% White. Let's hope it stays that way, until the Muslims give up and go home.
I read an interview with some neocon jew who divides his time between the US and France. Of course the same jews who lead the sheeple to 'hate' France are the same jews who set up nice properties for themselves in the beautiful French countryside. The same neocon jew laments in his interview that "France is not a multicultural country, in the same way the United States is"......of course, that's why he likes spending time there!
2005-09-21 15:42 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Howling Privateer]I think that members of the House of Lords are not elected by the people.[/QUOTE] I think that it used to be almost entirely hereditary and ennobled peers, plus a few higher-ups in the Anglican Church hierarchy. Sometime in the 90s it was "reformed" so that the number of seats is smaller; the peers elect a certain number from among themselves to sit in Lords. Being a peer is no longer automatically a guarantee for a seat since that time.
2005-09-21 20:14 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Petr]One response on that thread below that I linked to does indeed point out that British Muslims are overall pushier and less assimilated than the German or French ones - perhaps because they are mainly from South Asia and thus ever farther away from the European culture (and less White) than the Muslims living on the shores of Mediterranean
It depends on what assimilited means. Muslims in France are certainly less rowdy than in UK and few speak Arabic (only a few words of native dialect in fact), but they aren't very successful. Statistics on ethnicity are theorically forbidden, but I've read that while 52% of the whole youth get its baccaleauréat (exam to go to college), only 26% of them do. Psychometrics for hiring into police cuts them off at 33% in Lille and 40% in Marseilles while it eliminates only 20% and 26% of "others". That puts their IQ in the very low 90s, like Mestizos for example. 70 to 80% of our inmates are Muslims.
I wouldn't say that they're soaked in French culture either. A third of them expresses their dissension with the sentence: "a Moslem must follow the Koranic principles, even if they are opposed to the French law." 42% refuse to answer the question.
UK risks permanent unrest because the British elite is so fond of institutionalized multiculturalism that they allow them to organize themselves the way they want.
About the whiteness of North-Africans, only 5 to 10% could qualify and pass as Spaniards or Italians. Otherwise here are typical North-Africans.
[IMG]http://i.timeinc.net/time/potw/20010525/algeria.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://matoub.kabylie.free.fr/images/fille-kabyle-4.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://cp.settlement.org/english/algeria/images/alg04.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://cp.settlement.org/english/algeria/images/alg09.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.ac-clermont.fr/actualit/pedago/maroc2000/imagesmaroc/Stagiaires01.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.ac-clermont.fr/actualit/pedago/maroc2000/imagesmaroc/Stagiaires02.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://gaelic.rugama.com/portfolio/images/les_tunisiens.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE=xmetalhead]Now, that's pretty awesome. I always noticed the French Senate to be 100% White.
You can find Blacks, Mulattoes, Pacific islanders for overseas territories.
2005-09-21 22:52 | User Profile
[FONT=Arial][COLOR=Blue][B][I] - "I wouldn't say that they're soaked in French culture either."[/I][/B][/COLOR][/FONT]
Oh, neither would I. I want them out of Europe all the same.
Petr