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What's Beyond Freemasonry?

Thread ID: 19785 | Posts: 155 | Started: 2005-08-23

Petr [OP]

2005-08-23 11:19 | User Profile

[url]http://www.revisionisthistory.org/essay26.html[/url]

[FONT=Arial][SIZE=6]What's Beyond Freemasonry?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=4]Book Review: [/SIZE][SIZE=4][I]Blood on the Altar[/I][/SIZE] [B] [SIZE=3]Reviewed by Cornelia R. Ferreira[/SIZE]

Reprinted with permission from Catholic Family News, August 2005[/B]

As Vatican II commenced, a little-known secret society, the Ordo Templis Orientis (OTO), conducted a ceremony to celebrate the opening of the Council. The OTO's occult icon, the "Stele of Revealing," was carried across Germany from Hamburg to Zurich, then onwards to Stein, where it was borne into the OTO's chapel, with bells ringing, for a Gnostic ritual. (p. 103) Just what is this Ordo Templis Orientis, and what advance knowledge did it have of the Council's designs that caused it to celebrate? These questions are answered in Blood on the Altar as Craig Heimbichner unravels the history and workings of what he calls the world's most dangerous secret society, the power behind the Invisible Government or Cryptocracy.

The Cryptocracy is involved in the transformation or "alchemical processing" of mass consciousness by psychological mind manipulation. With the help of the secret societies, tests are set up and responses measured, to "shape" world events. (pp. 5-6, 15, 137) The goal is to have the masses live as controlled puppets in the Masonic New World Order. Established a century ago, the OTO is the "graduate school" of Freemasonry, and is self-titled the "Masonic Academy." It contains all the degrees of Masonry and Illuminism and is the highest secret society for elite Freemasons. An international organization, the OTO is a tax-exempt organized religion in the United States. (pp. 13-14, 25, 76, 87, 91-92). The writings of its long-time head, British Intelligence agent and satanist Aleister Crowley (d. 1947), who called himself the Great Beast 666, reveal the OTO is grounded in satanism.

Crowley called Satan "my Lord" and said, with regards to the OTO, "We have no scruple in restoring 'devil worship.'" (p. 28) However, in the OTO, the devil worship is not openly done under the name of Satan, but surreptitiously under the name of the goat-headed satanic idol Baphomet. Also termed Lion and Serpent, Baphomet is worshipped as God in the Gnostic Mass, the OTO's central liturgy (pp. 29-30).

Composed by Crowley, the Gnostic Mass is not a Black Mass, i.e., a reversed Catholic Mass, but a blasphemous parody of the Catholic Mass. (p. 15) It is very important to understand that the roots of Freemasonry intertwine with Judaism, as it helps us to see the hand of Masonry behind the Judaizers in the Catholic Church.

All Masonry, says Mr. Heimbichner, is subordinate to Judaism. A "key operative" in the establishment of the OTO was a member of the B'nai B'rith, which is Jewish Freemasonry. (p. 89) The essence of Freemasonry, Mr. Heimbichner says (pp. 8-9), can be traced to the Sumerian worship of Satan ("Shaitan") that passed into ancient Egypt and Babylon. The ancient forms of devil worship were then preserved and passed down through the oral teaching of the Jewish rabbis as the "traditions of the ancients or elders," strongly condemned by Jesus Christ (Mk. 7:1-13; Mt. 15:1-9).

After the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 A.D., the oral teaching was gradually written down in what became the Talmud and the Kabbalah. The Talmud and Kabbalah, the latter being completely gnostic and black-magical, form the basis of Judaism, a religion "utterly distinct" from the Old Testament religion of the Israelites. Judaism is "a sect top-heavy with unscriptural, man-made tradition and pagan superstition." Mr. Heimbichner cites Jewish authorities on the Kabbalah and experts on occult symbolism to expose the fact that certain Kabbalist rites correspond to the occult Hindu Tantric yoga techniques of sex magick. These depraved rituals are a continuation of the temple magic of the Canaanites, Babylonians and other nations, which drew down the wrath of God. Their purpose in Judaism is to fuse the male and female aspects of divinity to produce the androgynous, balanced, "completed male" Jew, the "body of God," called Adam Kadmon.

"The duty of pious Jews," says a Kabbalah authority quoted by Mr. Heimbichner, is to recite a Kabbalist formula daily to mystically promote this unity. (pp. 77-78, 86, 136) The Jewish Encyclopedia admits, says Mr. Heimbichner, that Jewish gnosticism includes occult magick and it inspired Christian Gnosticism. (p. 88) This occultism was also transmitted through the Manichaeans, Cathars and other groups, eventually corrupting the twelfth-century Knights Templar, transforming it into an occult Order. The Order was condemned and closed down by the Church for worshipping Baphomet and practising sodomy - which occultists consider "advanced" sex magick (pp. 9, 80).

The Templar tradition made its way into Freemasonry, and sex magick "lies at the heart of top-level Freemasonry such as exists in the OTO." It is the "supreme secret" of Masonry, known only to high Masons. (pp. 77, 81, 95) There is sex magick in the eighth and ninth degrees of the OTO and homosexuality in the eleventh, its highest degree (pp. 88, 113). And even the lowest levels of Masonry, the Blue Lodge, teach the gnostic denial of God and the affirmation of man as God, ruler of himself, a "risen" divinity - i.e., a type of Antichrist. (pp. 81-82)

[SIZE=3][I]The Double Mind[/I][/SIZE]

Craig Heimbichner reveals that this teaching is a typical OTO/Masonic deception. Albert Pike, Sovereign Grand Commander of Scottish Rite Masonry, confessed in his 1871 book Morals and Dogma, which is "the defining dogmatic statement of Masonic belief," that Blue Lodge members are deliberately deceived as to the meanings of Masonic symbols. Only the "Adepts," or "Elect" get to know the occult secrets. It is the purpose of Masonry, said Pike, "to conceal the Truth, which it calls Light, from [low-level Masons]." (pp. 56-58) As Mr. Heimbichner notes, "the illusion of self-rulership and divinity is used as an intoxicating drug to inoculate dupes both in the lodges and outside into believing themselves omnipotent and omniscient," above possible enslavement or deception. (p. 82)

The actual "light" that Masons pledge to seek, and which is found in the highest levels of Masonry, Pike taught, must be received from Lucifer, the "Light-Bearer." He said the search for Light leads back to the Kabbalah, and Crowley affirms this, also asserting that the Kabbalah is the "whole basis" of the OTO. Thus, concludes Mr. Heimbichner, "Freemasonry is a nursery of Luciferianism from which promising candidates are selected [for higher degrees], while others are left forever in the dark, content to exploit their good-old-boy connections and play their charity charade." (pp. 58, 116-17)

Satan being the father of lies, Masonic "charity" is a veneer hiding the true purpose of Freemasonry, which is the totalitarian control of the world according to Kabbalistic principles. Mr. Heimbichner notes that "the Masonic identification with Lucifer is an attempt to invoke the supernatural force that energizes tyrannical rule," and he cites Scriptural passages that compare tyrannical kings with Satan. In modern times, we have the French Revolution and Communism, both "imposed in the name of lofty masonic ideals of fraternity and equality, and Judeo-Bolshevik promises of paradise for workers and peasants." (pp. 59-60)

Mr. Heimbichner makes the important observation that the Kabbalistic attempt to merge a male and female divinity, as well as combine two opposing pillars of Mercy and Severity in its Tree of Life, indicates its inherently contradictory - indeed, dialectical - nature. It produces a "Double Mind," which, as practised by its Masonic/OTO disciples, generates "a hypnosis of confusing but convincing double-talk." (p. 61) Readers will undoubtedly recall George Orwell's portrayal in 1984 of the insanity-producing double-think that characterizes a totalitarian society. Control over a person's mind is complete when you can get him to simultaneously hold two contradictory ideas as equally valid.

The androgynous Baphomet, worshipped by the OTO, symbolizes the Double Mind, i.e., two-faced duplicity. This accounts for the deception practised on Masons themselves. But seeking total world control, the OTO has also been spreading double-think through society and the Church, attempting to control both the Left pillar of libertarianism and radical hedonism, and the Right pillar of preference for authoritarian, aristocratic rule and classical culture. Mr. Heimbichner has tracked the infiltration of OTO members into the US government and military, NASA, Hollywood, the FBI, Right-wing "patriot" groups and the New Age Movement. He provides examples of how its wide-ranging influence on the elite has allowed it to transform the masses, "spreading the 'energy of Satan' across the planet." (pp. 17, 119-29) He uses the example of OTO leader James Wasserman to illustrate how the OTO infiltrates the Right Wing, and states that he and other investigators have compiled evidence of occult agents in the Traditional Mass movement. (pp. 35-40, 44)

Certainly this reviewer has encountered double-minded Traditionalists who promote a "Catholic" occultism, even suggesting that the Black Mass could be licit. Other Traditionalists delve into the trance-induced "prophecies" of Nostradamus or constantly seek out modern, unapproved seers. And Traditionalists who wonder if St. John in "The Last Supper" painting is actually Mary Magdalene have been alchemically processed by the blasphemous libel against Jesus Christ and His Church in "The Da Vinci Code. " Outside the Traditionalist movement, transformation is a splendid success. The clearest indications are the refusal of neo-conservatives to criticize Pope John Paul's syncretism and sacrilege-laden Masses, though knowing these actions to be wrong; and the bid to canonize him as a martyr although he died peacefully in bed and loved by the world.

[SIZE=3][I]The Law of Thelema[/I][/SIZE]

Attempting to destroy Christian morality, OTO head Aleister Crowley preached the Law of Thelema: "Do as you will," or, as it is known in popular jargon, "Do your own thing."  He highly influenced the hippie movement and the use of psychedelic drugs.  Crowley was popularized by the Beatles and other rock stars, Hollywood and major bookstores. (pp. 48-50, 130)  His engagement in animal sacrifice, and his call for human sacrifice, may have been a factor in the Manson murders. (pp. 18-22)

With disciple Gerald Gardner, he created the modern system of Wicca or "white witchcraft," which is not traditional witchcraft, but the "witchcraft" and goddess-worship practised by feminists and modernist Catholic nuns. The Harry Potter films and books, which promote the notion of the "good witch," have been credited by the Pagan Federation of England for interesting thousands of teenagers in witchcraft.

Disney films, TV shows and pop stars also pitch Wicca to the young, observes Mr. Heimbichner. (pp. 16, 52-54) Aleister Crowley Tarot cards not only introduce youth to the OTO, but also are the basis of role-playing computer games that increasingly feature dark themes, bloodletting and OTO demons. (pp. 24-27) Given his own use of sexual magick, the bisexual Crowley preached that all perversions should be practised openly, and that "all children shall be accustomed from infancy to witness every type of sexual act." Mr. Heimbichner comments that "his advice has been taken to heart by the Hollywood entertainment industry and the New York publishing houses," whilst some OTO members have promoted "man/boy love."

Further, he says, the notorious 'sexologist' Alfred Kinsey (d. 1956), whose influence on sex education helped to erode American morality, was a friend of Crowley, whom he cited as a "major inspiration." Kinsey "was a pederast who used hundreds of children in sex acts connected with his famed 'medical research,'" but was glorified in a 2004 Hollywood movie from Fox studio. (pp. 16-17, 117)

Mr. Heimbichner makes two important points here. First, his research shows that the roots of this spreading cancer of pedophilia, that has even tarnished the Catholic priesthood, actually lie not in Crowley or the OTO, but in the Talmud. (p. 114) Second, given its own promotion of immorality, media outrage regarding clerical homosexuality betrays its Double Mind and its part in mass hypnosis. Media double-think in any context "tests the trance-state of the populace," i.e., what the masses will accept as official news or explanations. The programming or transforming of minds is then adjusted depending on the response. (p. 112)

Mr. Heimbichner provides double-speak examples from the Talmud and Jewish man-made laws of "rabbinical sanctions of child molestation," even against girls younger than three years old. Not surprisingly, "sodomy in the synagogue," says Mr. Heimbichner, "is a well-kept secret." He cites a recent report in the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz, "that decades of sodomizing of [male Talmud school] students was permitted and covered up by 'the greatest of the ultra-Orthodox rabbis.'" There is, of course, no outcry in the controlled Western media. (pp. 114-16) Meanwhile, our formerly Christian societies have been "transformed" to accept sexual perversity as a human right, and the institutionalization of perverse liasons as "marriage." It is only a matter of time and further re-education before pedophilia is sanctioned because "Crowley regarded any separation between homosexuality and pederasty as artificial and absurd and refused to restrict himself." Restriction, he taught, is Sin. Mr. Heimbichner observes, "The 'Sin of Restriction'" is now viewed by influential American educators, journalists and judges precisely as Crowley viewed it." (pp. 117-18)

Now, it is quite obvious today's world is completely youth-oriented. Laws ensure that youth are not disciplined. Education is "child-centered." Fashions, music and entertainment are geared towards the young consumer. Political parties have youth wings, the age of voting is being lowered, and governments and the United Nations seek the input of youth. Even the Catholic Church has got in on the act, preaching Crowley's Law of Thelema - do as you will - to the young. There are youth or children's "Masses," highly corrupted to appeal to them. Youth are encouraged to discuss - criticize - traditional beliefs and practices of the Church. Instead of teaching them to follow the Commandments of God and the Church, they are taught to discover their own values and devise their own spirituality. This Thelemic pandering culminates in the wild extravaganzas called World Youth Days.

It just so happens that Aleister Crowley predicted (pp. 50-51) that the advance of "Crowleyanity" in mainstream culture would engender the "'Aeon of Horus,' the age of the Crowned and Conquering Child," which would overthrow the "Aeon of Osiris," the age of the "Dying God." In other words, says Mr. Heimbichner, Crowley's New Age is one in which "God the Father is thrown off by Horus the Child," as a rebellious youth culture emerges. (As Pope Leo XIII explained in his indictment of Freemasonry, Humanum Genus, Masonry controls the masses, especially youth, through the "gospel of pleasure.") Crowley further planned that both the " Left-wing" rebellion and the "Right-wing" reaction would be controlled by the OTO. So, for instance, we have both society and the diocesan-level Church, through programs for parents of allegedly homosexual youth, brainwashing parents to accept their children's sinful "lifestyle" (the battle for getting them to accept cohabitation has already been won).

[SIZE=3][I]Blood on the Altar[/I][/SIZE]

In the early twentieth century, the OTO nearly succeeded in placing one of its Satanist members on the Papal throne. Mariano Cardinal Rampolla, Secretary of State under Leo XIII, was elected to the papacy after Leo's death. Only the exercising by Emperor Franz Josef of Austria-Hungary of the emperor's long-standing privilege of vetoing a papal election, led to the removal of Rampolla and the election of Pope St. Pius X instead. But through Rampolla, who "influenced key men," "the OTO had the opportunity to give counsel, plant seeds and ultimately shape policy within the Vatican" in the following decades, notes Mr. Heimbichner. He follows the trail of influence down to Freemason Archbishop Annibale Bugnini, architect of the destruction of the Tridentine Mass. (pp. 100-102)

It is noteworthy that besides including Rampolla in its list of members in its 1917 Manifesto, the Judaic OTO also claimed the Chiefs of several Catholic Orders of Knights as "initiates of the highest rank." These included the Knights of St. John, Malta and the Holy Sepulchre. (pp. 91-92)

Which brings us back to why the OTO celebrated the opening of Vatican II. It obviously had advance knowledge of the Judaization, occultization and Thelemization of the Church that would now take place openly. The breaking down of the true Church and erection of a false, anti-Catholic Counterchurch, hardly noticed by the gradually hypnotized Catholic grassroots, shows the OTO's faith in Vatican II was not misplaced. Indeed, in 1970, narrates Mr. Heimbichner, a portrait painted by a German Lutheran depicted a "repellent, evil" Paul VI, clutching a dagger and destroying St. Peter's Basilica, whilst surrounded by Illuminati and Satanic symbols.

The pontiff cooly commented that the portrait was "a mirror of the situation in the Church today," and that "one almost needs a new philosophy to grasp the meaning of this in its context." This new philosophy is the philosophy of Thelema or self-will, explains Mr. Heimbichner, whilst the context of the Church's destruction is the Aeon of Horus, in which the satanic Masonic New Age replaces Christianity. (pp. 106-7, 136)

The final Aeon proclaimed by Crowley will be the Aeon of Maat, the era of the Antichrist or the false Jewish Messiah. At that time, says Mr. Heimbichner, "Freemasonic leaders hope to finally fulfill their Third Degree ritual by rebuilding Solomon's Temple so that blood may again flow upon Jerusalem's altar, defiantly reversing and nullifying, in the Talmudic and occult mind, the blood of Christ."

As Crowley exclaimed to a Jewish rabbi: "Let Anti-Christ arise, let Him announce to Israel its integrity." The OTO is paving the way for the "hoped-for Judeo-Masonic dream of rebuilding the Temple of Solomon so that the blood of animals may once again be present at the rabbinical altar." How close are we to this event? Well, Mr. Heimbichner cites a rabbi who says Jewish tradition calls for the re-establishment of the Jewish Sanhedrin as "a necessary condition for the rebuilding of the Temple."

He then quotes an Israeli news report of October 14, 2004, that announced, "After secretive preparations that lasted for over a year, the Sanhedrin ... will resume its operation after 1,500 years." (pp. 125-26, 129-30)

Craig Heimbichner ends his book warning that we must sacrifice our time and energy in the pursuit of truth. We must reject the Double Mind, cast off the Thelemic trance and reverse the alchemical-hypnotic process so that we are not sacrificed on the OTO's altar, for our damnation. (p. 135) Of course, as Catholics, the way to avoid having a Double Mind is to stick firmly to Tradition, shun all novelty, and reject the fantastick. [I]

[B]Cornelia Ferreira is co-author, with John Vennari, of World Youth Day: From Catholicism to Counterchurch, which analyzes occult infiltration of Catholicism and offers a devastating portrait of the shipwreck that was the pontificate of Pope John Paul II[/B][/I].[/FONT]

albion

2005-08-23 11:51 | User Profile

Craig Heimbichner responds to Paranoia Magazine's review of his book, "Blood on the Altar" [url="http://www.revisionisthistory.org/essay25.html"]http://www.revisionisthistory.org/essay25.html[/url] To the editor: Thank you for reviewing my book, " [url="http://www.revisionisthistory.org/cgi-bin/store/agora.cgi?p_id=10009"][color=#0000ff]Blood on the Altar: The Secret History of the World's Most Dangerous Secret Society[/color][/url]" in the Fall, 2005 (issue #39) of your magazine, "Paranoia: The Conspiracy Reader" (pp. 62-63). Your review was much-appreciated, but contained some notable errors and omissions which I must point out.

You write that I mention "97 degrees of Freemasonry," but provide the reader "nothing further on this intriguing claim." Actually, in my glossary (p. 148) I note that the 97 degrees belong to the Memphis Rite of Masonry, and I cite this fact earlier, on p. 92, as well. Basic information on this rite and a complete list of all of its degrees can be found in a standard Masonic work such as A E. Waite's "Encyclopaedia of Freemasonry, "Volume 2, pp. 241-248 (Wings Books, New York, 1996 edition).

I never state any enormity such as that the OTO is "behind just about every social movement or event," as you allege. While I posit that the political stagecraft known as "Left" and "Right" are minted from the kabbalistic schema of Rabbi Isaac Luria (1534-1572), it is an illusion of kabbalistic and Masonic sorcery that these divisions encompass "every social movement or event," and one that I do not share.

You also claim that my book "falls flat" when it comes to "naming influential OTO members," and imply that I give little beyond the well-known names of Aleister Crowley and Jack Parsons. It appears that you have not read my book with sufficient attention, given the fact that I write at length about representative powerful individuals spanning the history of the twentieth century, who were connected to the OTO in significant ways in key areas, from the military and British Intelligence, to literature, journalism, medicine, science fiction, the homosexual rights movement and NAMBLA, the space program, Scientology, Hollywood, the pagan revival ("Wicca"), B'nai B'rith, the Zurich Union of Zionists, the Soviet Union's Trade Delegation, the Communist Party, Israeli Intelligence (Shin Bet), the CIA and even the Vatican and certain wings of Protestantism.

Some of the names cited in my book include military strategist Major-General J. F. C. Fuller, OTO visionary James Wasserman, NAMBLA activist Harry Hay, B'nai B'rith leader Dr. Pinkus, Dr. Jung's associate Oscar Schlag, Martin Buber's colleague Friedrich Levke, Vatican Secretary of State Cardinal Rampolla, Aldous Huxley, Alfred Kinsey, filmmaker Kenneth Anger, actor John Carradine, "Wicca founder" Gerald Gardner, ordained Episcopalian priest Michael Bertiaux, Pulitzer prize- winning journalist and "Man in Moscow" Walter Duranty, sci-fi legend Robert Heinlein, and many others. I do not give a complete membership list, but you might try your creative luck with the current leaders of the OTO, "Hymenaeus Beta" (William Breeze) and his U.S. top man, "Sabazius" (David Scriven), or Michael Staley in England (representing Kenneth Grant).

Furthermore, you expressed some puzzlement in that I cast doubt on Masonic membership lists while still affirming higher Masonic control in the United States and elsewhere. In truth, the Masonic membership lists in circulation are a deliberate mixture of truth and falsehood, not to be taken at face value. Regarding the United States, Masonic control was not solidified until after the Civil War. The Cryptocracy has deepened its psychological control over the populace by rewriting history to serve its purposes, including the recent push (as you note) to paint the colonial breakaway from England as a top-to-bottom Masonic project.

This Masonic boast serves to make Lodge control over this country look inevitable. Such conceit further serves to distract the half-educated from the historical fact that Masonry was already the power behind the throne (and Church) of England: why then would a Masonic rebellion against the immense, successful Masonic power of the British Empire make sense? It doesn't among real historians rather than Masonic enthusiasts and their dupes. Historians who value exactitude cannot twist facts to overblow the picture of Masonic dominance at a point in history in which it would have been false to affirm it, however much the shadowy presence of Masonic control is undeniable today.

Finally, your reviewer cited my remarks about occult themes in "Scooby-Doo" as a kind of joking caveat against certain aspects of my subject matter, though paradoxically he quickly distanced himself from suggesting that my work was not serious or worthy of study.

It is a commonplace among scholars who are of a New Age orientation to belittle Christian researchers who raise alarms about the sublimation of popular culture to the service of clandestine programming and ritual magick. Yet one of the points I try to make in my book is that, despite a good deal of misinformation and hysteria from Protestant Fundamentalists in this area, the interface between "harmless" mainstream children's culture and the occult is now more or less so blatant it is barely concealed.

This point was brought home with some impact at the prestigious, 14th World Jewish Congress of Jewish Studies held in late July and early August, 2005 at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem. A number of Israeli scholars from the field of the occult, and especially kabbalah, participated. Dr. Avraham Elqayam of Bar-Ilan University, an exponent of the kabbalah of Rabbi Yitzhak Luria, began his lecture with a call for a genuine revolution in the study of mysticism, calling for the consolidation of "new directions" in the teaching of kabbalah, and citing the Harry Potter books as one such "new direction," with the Hogwarts School serving as a model for the Lurianic paradigm.

So, while the spectacle of some obese Fundamentalist in the Bible Belt pounding his pulpit in fulmination against "Harry Potter" may tickle the funny bones of arch-hipsters, the reality is not quite so amusing: it just so happens that the heavy-hitters of kabbalistic black magic find in Harry Potter precisely the vehicle for the inculcation of their own dark philosophies among the masses. Perhaps it's a coincidence that it was the OTO that pioneered this kind of modernist pop-cult transmission as early as the 1940s.

[center] Craig Heimbichner [/center]

Angler

2005-08-23 12:01 | User Profile

Attempting to destroy Christian morality, OTO head Aleister Crowley preached the Law of Thelema: "Do as you will," or, as it is known in popular jargon, "Do your own thing." This is actually inaccurate. Here's what the "Law of Thelema" really means:

The central doctrine of this system is that knowing and doing one's True Will is the ultimate purpose and duty of every being. This is summed up with the following phrases from Liber Legis,

* "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" (AL I:40)
* "Love is the law, love under will" (AL I:57)
* "The word of the law is Thelema" (AL I:39)
* "There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt" (AL III:60)

The True Will is a mystical concept that could be described as the one path of possible actions and encounters one finds no resistance in going. It is presumed that to do one's True Will is to be assisted by the whole universe, and that two True Wills can never contradict. Hence, to follow one's True Will means to respect every other True Will, which is described in "Love is the law". Opinions vary on whether one can know one's True Will, or merely judge by one's "success" in life.

Thelema stresses personal Freedom (balanced by disciplined responsibility), the inherent divinity of every human ("Every man and every woman is a star" Ã¢â¬âAL I:3), and the battle against superstition, tyranny, and oppression.

Living Thelema usually, but not necessarily, is intertwined with the practice of magick, particularly of the concepts and techniques explored and invented by Crowley. Interestingly,

Crowley also acknowledged Saint Augustine's "Love, and do what thou wilt" as a premonition of the Law of Thelema. Source: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thelema[/url]

I find it kind of ironic that Thelema is said to oppose superstition (bold type above) when Thelema, too, is a form of superstition. It contains some interesting ideas, though.

I haven't read too much about Crowley, but it's been said that he enjoyed his notoriety in the media and played up the Satanic image he was given -- hence his "Great Beast" remarks, etc. In fact, Thelema is entirely different from Satanism. The latter can either refer to worship of Satan as an actual entity or to the more common "symbolic Satanism," which was popularized by the Jewish con man Anton LaVey and is really little more than atheistic hedonism dressed up in the trappings of a religion.

Faust

2005-08-23 14:14 | User Profile

Oh Yes, those evil Satan-worshiping Freemasons like George Washington, Thomas Jefferson. John Adams, and Andrew Jackson... :jester:

G.Larson

2005-08-23 14:42 | User Profile

The God known as Shaitan was around way before christianity, as for Crowley it is ironic that his group used angel magick and the baphomet is the symbol of the male, female energy among other things. With inverted pentigram pointing down to show the drawing of the Earth energy back into the Earth and not being wasted, each of the points of it stands for a element, fire, water, air, earth and spirit. The supreme secret of the masons is there name for god that is a trinity, to hear it spoken is to understand it is pretty lame sounding. I could go into alot more stuff but Iam a lazy mofo.

Petr

2005-08-23 15:52 | User Profile

[COLOR=DarkRed][FONT=Arial][B][I] - "This is actually inaccurate. Here's what the "Law of Thelema" really means:"[/I][/B][/FONT][/COLOR]

Angler, sometimes you are [B]so[/B] naivÃÂ©. I mean, if you cannot rely on Satanists to tell the truth about themselves, then whom can you trust?

Actually all these secret or semi-secret organizations have an [B]exoteric[/B] and [B]esoteric[/B] doctrine. The public (exoteric) stuff is for the consumption of outsiders like you, relatively harmless pabulum and happy-face PR material.

All the [B]really[/B] creepy stuff, the esoteric doctrine, is reserved to the reliable inner circles of secret societies. Do you ever see Orthodox Jews discussing the disturbing passages of Talmud with [I]goyim[/I]?

In spite of all your atheistic posturing, you (like many other post-Christians) are still very much influenced by the Christian teaching that "truth will set you free", and therefore it is hard for you to even [I]comprehend [/I] just how two-faced and truth-despising some people can be.

We might add that there is nothing in Darwinism that makes truth-telling an inherent virtue, on the contrary, a successful deception of others can give a great advantage in a struggle for survival.

Petr

il ragno

2005-08-23 18:01 | User Profile

And let's not forget the Black Masses of the Elks!

Petr

2005-08-23 18:21 | User Profile

Strawmen and banal jesting about "blood libels and Protocols" and "seeing Reds under every bed" were also the means through which Jews and Communists have belittled and ridiculed their exposers, ragno.

Petr

albion

2005-08-23 19:15 | User Profile

QUOTE=Petr[/QUOTE]What's a "post-Christian"?

[img]http://www.radioliberty.com/acrowley.jpg[/img] [url="http://www.radioliberty.com/acrowley.html"]http://www.radioliberty.com/acrowley.html[/url]

Angler

2005-08-23 19:25 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Petr][COLOR=DarkRed][FONT=Arial][B][I] - "This is actually inaccurate. Here's what the "Law of Thelema" really means:"[/I][/B][/FONT][/COLOR]

Angler, sometimes you are [B]so[/B] naivÃÂ©. I mean, if you cannot rely on Satanists to tell the truth about themselves, then whom can you trust?[/QUOTE]Satanists generally have no problem at all admitting that they're Satanists, and their beliefs and practices are codified in readily-available books. There's no secrecy in Satanism -- at least not the symbolic, "LaVeyan" variety. How could there be? Anyone can join the Church of Satan right over the Internet. Would you like to explain to me how they can maintain secrecy under such conditions? How do they avoid infiltration? Polygraph tests? Magical "lie detection" spells?

Actually all these secret or semi-secret organizations have an exoteric and esoteric doctrine. The public (exoteric) stuff is for the consumption of outsiders like you, relatively harmless pabulum and happy-face PR material. And you know this...how? Are you a member of the OTO or some similar organization? How about the author of the article you posted? What makes him (or you) think that all the online material about Thelema is wrong and his simplistic interpretation is right? Let's have a reliable source, please.

If the only real principle of Thelema is "do whatever you want to," then what was Crowley writing all those books about? How much can a person expand on "do whatever you want"?

If the true meaning of the Law of Thelema was "do whatever you want," then why would Thelemites try to hide it? I pretty much do whatever I want to. So do a lot of people. Why would that have to be such a big secret?

In spite of all your atheistic posturing, you (like many other post-Christians) are still very much influenced by the Christian teaching that "truth will set you free", and therefore it is hard for you to even comprehend just how two-faced and truth-despising some people can be. The truth set me free, all right -- the truth that all religions (with the possible exception of deism) are shared fantasies from which their followers derive comfort and meaning in life. And Christianity is just as full of liars, fakers, and hypocrites as any other religion: look at any televangelist or faith healer, for example.

And what's this line about me not comprehending liars?! Stop playing amateur psychologist.

[quote=il ragno]And let's not forget the Black Masses of the Elks! LOL

Petr

2005-08-23 19:27 | User Profile

[COLOR=Purple][FONT=Arial][B][I] - "What's a "post-Christian"? "[/I][/B][/FONT][/COLOR]

A person who is not Christian anymore, but is yet still much influenced by Christian beliefs or habits. If a broad definition is used, this definition even includes, in one way or another, practically all non-religious people of European origin.

Petr

Texas Dissident

2005-08-23 19:39 | User Profile

[url=http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=1086]Who was Albert Pike?[/url]

Petr

2005-08-23 19:40 | User Profile

[COLOR=Blue][FONT=Arial][I][B] - "There's no secrecy in Satanism -- at least not the symbolic, "LaVeyan" variety. How could there be? Anyone can join the Church of Satan right over the Internet." [/B] [/I] [/FONT] [/COLOR]

You just keep on demonstrating your naivetÃÂ©. :tongue:

"The Church of Satan" is a clownish outfit, could be a veritable [I]decoy[/I] to draw attention away from more serious groups. All the really influential Luciferians are to be found in places like upper levels of Freemasonry that most certainly do [B]not[/B] openly advertise their real goals.

Also, a part and parcel of esoteric societies is the idea of keeping the lower levels of participants ignorant on what's really going on. Here Nesta Webster describes a typical [I]modus operandi [/I] of a hierarchical subversive movement:

[COLOR=DarkRed][SIZE=3][FONT=Trebuchet MS]"Under the direction of the Dar ul Hikmat or Grand Lodge of Cairo, the Fatimites continued the plan of Abdullah ibn Maymn's secret society with the addition of two more degrees making nine in all. Their method of enlisting proselytes and stem of initiation --which, as Claudio Jannet points out, " are absolutely those which Weishaupt, the founder of the Illuminati, prescribed to the ' Insinuating Brothers ' " (3)--were transcribed by the fourteenth-century historian Nowairi in a description that may be briefly summarized thus (4) :

[I]"[B]The proselytes were broadly divided into two classes, the learned and the ignorant[/B]. The Dai was to agree with the former, applauding his wisdom, and to impress the latter with his own knowledge by asking him perplexing questions on the Koran. [B]Thus in initiating him into the first degree the Dai assumed an air of profundity and explained that religious doctrines were too abstruse for the ordinary mind, but must be interpreted by men who, like the Dais, had a special knowledge of this science[/B]. The initiate was bound to absolute secrecy concerning the truths to be revealed to him and obliged to pay in advance for these revelations. In order to pique his curiosity, the Dai would suddenly stop short in the middle of a discourse, and should the novice finally decline to pay the required sum, he was left in a state of bewilderment which inspired him with the desire to know more.

"In the second degree the initiate was persuaded that all his ormer teachers were wrong and that he must place his confidence solely in those Imams endowed with authority from God ; in the third he learnt that these Imams were those of the Ismailis, seven in number ending with Mohammed, son of Ismail, in contradistinction to the twelve Imams of the Imamias who supported the claims of Ismail's brother Musa ; in the fourth he was told that the prophets preceding the Imams descending from Ali were also seven in number--namely Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, the first Mohammed, and finally Mohammed son of Ismail.

"[B]So far, then, nothing was said to the initiate in contradiction to the broad tenets of orthodox Islamism. But with the fifth degree the process of undermining his religion began[/B], he was now told to reject tradition and to disregard the precepts of Mohammed ; in the sixth he was taught that all religious observances--prayer, fasting, etc.--were only emblematic that in fact all these things were devices to keep the common herd of men in subordination ; in the seventh the doctrines of Dualism, of a greater and a lesser deity, were introduced and the unity of God--fundamental doctrine of Islamism was destroyed ; in the eighth a great vagueness was expressed on the attributes of the first and greatest of these deities, and it was pointed out that real prophets were those who concerned themselves with practical matters--political institutions and good forms of government ; [B]finally, in the ninth, the adept was shown that all religious teaching was allegorical and the religious precepts need only be observed in so far as it is necessary to maintain order, but the man who understands the truth may disregard all such doctrines[/B]. Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and the other prophets were therefore only teachers who had profited by the lessons of philosophy. All belief in revealed religion was thus destroyed. [B]It will be seen then that in the last degrees the whole teaching of the first five was reversed and therefore shown to be a fraud[/B].

"Fraud in fact constituted the system of the society; in the instructions to the Dais every artifice is described for enlisting proselytes by misrepresentation : Jews were to be won by speaking ill of Christians, Christians by speaking ill of Jews and Moslems alike, Sunnis by referring with respect to the orthodox Khalifas Abu Bakr and Omar and criticizing Ali and his descendants. [B]Above all, care was to be taken not to put before proselytes doctrines that might revolt them, but to make them advance step by step[/I][/B].[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]

[url]http://www.illuminati-news.com/subversive-movements.htm[/url]

Petr

Texas Dissident

2005-08-23 19:58 | User Profile

All the supposed abominations, the skeletons and death's head, the coffins and the mysteries, are mere bogeys for children. But there is one dangerous element and that is the element I have copied from them. They form a sort of priestly nobility. They have developed and esoteric doctrine more merely formulated, but imparted through the symbols and mysteries in degrees of initiation. The hierarchical organization and the initiation through symbolic rites, that is to say, without bothering the brain by working on the imagination through magic and the symbols of a cult, all this has a dangerous element, and the element I have taken over. Don't you see that our party must be of this character...? An Order, the hierarchial Order of a secular priesthood.

-Adolf Hitler praising Freemasonry

Angler

2005-08-23 20:35 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Petr][COLOR=Blue][FONT=Arial][I][B] - "There's no secrecy in Satanism -- at least not the symbolic, "LaVeyan" variety. How could there be? Anyone can join the Church of Satan right over the Internet." [/B] [/I] [/FONT] [/COLOR]

You just keep on demonstrating your naivetÃÂ©. :tongue: No, Petr, you're demonstrating your gullibility. Do you believe every conspiracy theory you read about on the Internet?

"The Church of Satan" is a clownish outfit, could be a veritable [I]decoy[/I] to draw attention away from more serious groups. All the really influential Luciferians are to be found in places like upper levels of Freemasonry that most certainly do [B]not[/B] openly advertise their real goals. I agree that the Church of Satan is goofy (I even recently posted on one of their boards and told them so), but I'm almost certain that they aren't a decoy. You are speculating wildly. A decoy for what or whom?

BTW, since you know so many of the Freemason's secrets, would you care to share (1) how you know them, and (2) what those goals are?

Did it ever occur to you that perhaps people who write books or put up Internet sites "revealing the secrets of the Freemasons" or other such groups are doing so to make a buck? Couldn't those people be of the same ilk as those who claim to have been abducted by aliens from the planet Zarcon?

Also, a part and parcel of esoteric societies is the idea of keeping the lower levels of participants ignorant on what's really going on. Here Nesta Webster describes a typical [I]modus operandi [/I] of a hierarchical subversive movement:

"In the second degree the initiate was persuaded that all his former teachers were wrong and that he must place his confidence solely in those Imams endowed with authority from God ; in the third he learnt that these Imams were those of the Ismailis, seven in number ending with Mohammed, son of Ismail, in contradistinction to the twelve Imams of the Imamias who supported the claims of Ismail's brother Musa ; in the fourth he was told that the prophets preceding the Imams descending from Ali were also seven in number--namely Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, the first Mohammed, and finally Mohammed son of Ismail.

[url]http://www.illuminati-news.com/subversive-movements.htm[/url][/QUOTE]This all makes for a good story, but again, I wouldn't necessarily assume that something is true just because someone wrote about it on the Internet. THAT is naivety, Petr.

Besides, even if the Freemasons do have their secrets, why should we be concerned about it? Lots of people have secrets and hidden motives. I'm content to judge people by their fruits -- not because Jesus said so, but simply because I can't read minds; peoples' actions and apparent attitudes are the only available yardstick by which I can judge them.

Petr

2005-08-23 20:55 | User Profile

[COLOR=Purple][FONT=Arial][I][B] - "No, Petr, you're demonstrating your gullibility."[/B][/I][/FONT][/COLOR]

I am not, and this is just an impotent nyah-nyahing response.

[COLOR=Purple][FONT=Arial][I][B] - "Do you believe every conspiracy theory you read about on the Internet?"[/B][/I][/FONT][/COLOR]

Of course not. I subject them to a rigorous scrutiny and accept only those that seem to make some sense. People like Travis have attacked me for not uncritically buying into every wild thesis out there.

[COLOR=Purple][FONT=Arial][B][I] - "Did it ever occur to you that perhaps people who write books or put up Internet sites "revealing the secrets of the Freemasons" or other such groups are doing so to make a buck? Couldn't those people be of the same ilk as those who claim to have been abducted by aliens from the planet Zarcon?"[/I][/B][/FONT][/COLOR]

People like Nesta Webster, or websites like "Freemasonry Watch" are light years away from any X-files stuff.

Just admit it, you are like a fish out of water when it comes to Machiavellian cunning and conspiracies. Masons call un-initiated materialists like you as "cowans."

Neocons, as founded by Leo Strauss, have all the hallmarks of an esoteric secret society. They are [I]right now [/I] fiddling your country, and shallow rationalists like you are utterly helpless in stopping them.

[COLOR=Purple][FONT=Arial][B][I] - "BTW, since you know so many of the Freemason's secrets, would you care to share (1) how you know them, and (2) what those goals are?"[/I][/B][/FONT][/COLOR]

A childish all-or-nothing approach. As if I had to know everything about Masons to realize that they are up to no good.

One of the goals of Freemasonry has always been pushing (real, Biblical) Christianity out of the public sphere and rendering it impotent. They are one of the main sources of the whole culture of "pluralism" that is now the cancer of the West.

[COLOR=Purple][FONT=Arial][B][I]- "This all makes for a good story, but again, I wouldn't necessarily assume that something is true just because someone wrote about it on the Internet. THAT is naivety, Petr."[/I][/B][/FONT][/COLOR]

Unlike a vast majority of amateurish conspiratologists, Webster carefully footnoted her claims. That alone raises her to a whole different level.

[COLOR=Purple][FONT=Arial][B][I] - "Satanists, Freemasons, and other assorted weirdos don't frighten me at all."[/I][/B][/FONT][/COLOR]

May I cite your sig:

[I]"None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free."[/I]

Petr

Okiereddust

2005-08-23 23:00 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Angler]No, Petr, you're demonstrating your gullibility. Do you believe every conspiracy theory you read about on the Internet?.....

This all makes for a good story, but again, I wouldn't necessarily assume that something is true just because someone wrote about it on the Internet. THAT is naivety, Petr..........

Besides, even if the Freemasons do have their secrets, why should we be concerned about it? Lots of people have secrets and hidden motives.......

Satanists, Freemasons, and other assorted weirdos don't frighten me at all. They can have their little secret clubhouses, orgies, or whatever. I'm a lot more concerned with problems that I know to exist, like Zionist control of the US government. But if you're interested in that other stuff, knock yourself out investigating it.[/QUOTE]Angler, you crack me up. Spiderman too. On this board, of all places, to be knocking obscure conspiracy theories, as if you guys are the enlightened paragons of rationality.

Some people can see everything in the world and not learn a thing from them. Sort of like the lawyer who suspected his wife was having an affair. So he got a telescope, and had his aide stand beside him for evidence. His aide asked him "what do you see".

"Well, they're going into the bedroom..... they're kissing... hmm, he's unzipping her blouse......the lights are going out.... DOGGONE IT, JUST AS I WAS ABOUT TO GET THE SMOKING GUN!...." :lol:

il ragno

2005-08-24 00:22 | User Profile

[QUOTE]Strawmen and banal jesting about "blood libels and Protocols" and "seeing Reds under every bed" were also the means through which Jews and Communists have belittled and ridiculed their exposers, ragno.[/QUOTE]

Like all "haw-haw" funny people, I of course am unable to appreciate subtle sarcasm. So before I respond properly, I need to know: is this more poker-faced Finnish humor from the master?

[QUOTE]Angler, you crack me up. Spiderman too. On this board, of all places, to be knocking obscure conspiracy theories, as if you guys are the enlightened paragons of rationality.[/QUOTE]

Come again? Besides settin' on an upturned paint can out front of the package store and spittin' out chaw juice, do you even [I]have [/I] a point of view, Okie? I know you can be counted on to cite Kevin McDonald's work on one hand, and make the sign of the cross at anyone else who does as a "Nazi", "VNN'er", "loonytune" etc with the other, but I just figured that mild hypocrisy is a side-effect that comes from long years of getting away with communicating via smilies and "Revolutionary Conservative - What's That?" and passing it off as a 'philosophy'.

Bardamu

2005-08-24 01:37 | User Profile

Interesting article, Peter. I have a friend whose commentary on this I would love to read.

Okiereddust

2005-08-24 02:43 | User Profile

[QUOTE=il ragno]Like all "haw-haw" funny people, I of course am unable to appreciate subtle sarcasm. So before I respond properly, I need to know: is this more poker-faced Finnish humor from the master?.....

I'll just say we stupid Okie goy obviously don't have a philosophy recognizable as such to those fine cosmopolitan denizens of self worship and wisecracks, even if in your case they're the second rate ethnic goy versions.

Walter Yannis

2005-08-24 04:58 | User Profile

Most freemasons don't know that they're worshipping Satan, or if the thought does occur to them they push the thought away with an all-in-good-fun shrug. Shriners are emblematic of this.

I think that it's the same with Orthodox Jews, who offer prayers to Satan daily. Shahaak tells us these prayers are meant to trick demons into allowing their real prayers to enter heaven.

But the thing is that Satan is real, and praying to him yields conrete, objective and horrific results, regardless of the supplicant's intentions.

The worship of demons wreaks spiritual havoc in this world.

We must confront it in order to protect ourselves from its effects.

G.Larson

2005-08-24 08:05 | User Profile

Free Masons do not whorship Satan, at there core they are deists. People rant and rave about the evil secret groups and how they are trying to push whatever flavour of jesus they like out the window. But after looking at what that religion did in Europe and else where who is the evil again? The last thing the world needs is to put any more power into the hands of religious fundies be they catholic or other christian sect, muslim or jew.

Petr

2005-08-24 08:13 | User Profile

[COLOR=DarkRed][FONT=Arial][B][I] - "Free Masons do not whorship Satan, at there core they are deists." [/I] [/B] [/FONT] [/COLOR]

Upper-level Masons sure are "deists" in the sense that they believe that God is far away from this world and powerless ([I]which may mean that other forces will have to be placated instead[/I]).

It has been suggested that this vision of Ezekiel (about apostate priests of Jerusalem) is the first description of a Masonic lodge in action:

Ezekiel 8:7-12

[COLOR=RoyalBlue][B]8:7 And he brought me to the door of the court; and when I looked, behold a hole in the wall.

8:8 Then said he unto me, Son of man, dig now in the wall: and when I had digged in the wall, behold a door.

8:9 And he said unto me, Go in, and behold the wicked abominations that they do here.

8:10 So I went in and saw; and behold every form of creeping things, and abominable beasts, and all the idols of the house of Israel, pourtrayed upon the wall round about.

8:11 And there stood before them seventy men of the ancients of the house of Israel, and in the midst of them stood Jaazaniah the son of Shaphan, with every man his censer in his hand; and a thick cloud of incense went up.

8:12 Then said he unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen what the ancients of the house of Israel do in the dark, every man in the chambers of his imagery? [U]for they say, the LORD seeth us not; the LORD hath forsaken the earth[/U]. [/B] [/COLOR]

Quite "deistic" opinion, don't you think?

Petr

G.Larson

2005-08-24 08:38 | User Profile

Nope that is not a masonic lodge in action, and they are deists.

il ragno

2005-08-24 08:39 | User Profile

[QUOTE]Obviously we've struck a nerve spiderman, you've fell back on your reflexive grap for the ad hominem, especialy the New Yorker ones.[/QUOTE] For [I]once[/I] I figured I'd beat you to it.

[QUOTE]Just admit it, you are like a fish out of water when it comes to Machiavellian cunning and conspiracies. Masons call un-initiated materialists like you as "cowans."[/QUOTE] Yeah, we're all corn-fed boobs shiftlessly digging one big toe in the dirt. Shoot, everybody [I]knows [/I] that 'conspiracy theories' are all crazy talk.... except the ones about Satan, naturally.

[QUOTE]Neocons, as founded by Leo Strauss, have all the hallmarks of an esoteric secret society. They are right now fiddling your country, and shallow rationalists like you are utterly helpless in stopping them.[/QUOTE] "Neo....[I]cons[/I]", is it? Never heard of 'em. [U]Nobody[/U] here has, except shallow irrationalists from Helsinki....and they won't tell us the secret incantation to defeat them.

[QUOTE]Most freemasons don't know that they're worshipping Satan, or if the thought does occur to them they push the thought away with an all-in-good-fun shrug. [B]Shriners are emblematic of this.[/B] [/QUOTE] How about it, Petr? Anything in Colossians or Second Kings about false prophets and Baal-priests in fez hats driving tiny little cars?

Walter Yannis

2005-08-24 10:21 | User Profile

[QUOTE=G.Larson]Free Masons do not whorship Satan, at there core they are deists. [/QUOTE] Not so. [QUOTE]"Lucifer, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable, blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish souls? Doubt it not!" [Albert Pike, [URL=http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/apikefr.html]Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry[/URL], p. 321, 19th Degree of Grand Pontiff[/QUOTE] They accept and deny, proclaim and equivocate.

But worship Satan they most certainly do.

Note well Pike's reference to the Sohar and Kabbalah. Freemasonry springs from the same poison root as Jewish Mysticism, and it stands as no surprise that its destructive effects are substantially similar.

Petr

2005-08-24 10:41 | User Profile

Guess which was one of the main influences on the founder (besides Leo Strauss) of the neo-conservative movement?

[url]http://freemasonrywatch.org/communism.html[/url]

[FONT=Trebuchet MS][COLOR=Red][COLOR=Indigo][SIZE=3]It was during that period that I became interested in freemasonry. ... In the eighteenth century freemasonry became expressive of a militant policy of enlightenment, as in the case of the Illuminati, who were the forerunners of the revolution; on its left it culminated in the Carbonari. Freemasons counted among their members both Louis XVI and the Dr. Guillotin who invented the guillotine. In southern Germany freemasonry assumed an openly revolutionary character, whereas at the court of Catherine the Great it was a masquerade reflecting the aristocratic and bureaucratic hierarchy. A freemason Novikov was exiled to Siberia by a freemason Empress.

[B]I discontinued my work on freemasonry to take up the study of Marxian economics. ... The work on freemasonry acted as a sort of test for these hypotheses. ... I think this influenced the whole course of my intellectual development. [/B] [/SIZE] [/COLOR]

[SIZE=3][B]Leon Trotsky

[I]My Life: The Rise and Fall of a Dictator [/I] pages 124-127 [/B] [/SIZE] [/COLOR] [/FONT]

Angler

2005-08-24 18:37 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Okiereddust]Angler, you crack me up. Spiderman too. On this board, of all places, to be knocking obscure conspiracy theories, as if you guys are the enlightened paragons of rationality. You believe in this mythological cartoon character named Satan, and you're questioning my rationality? LOL! Yeah, there's all kinds of evidence that Satan exists! Why, just look at all the bad things in the world! :rolleyes:

Hey, Okie: Did you know that human beings are held to the earth by invisible beings called "gravity elves"? It's true! And the evidence is all around you. You see it every day! I mean, how often do you see a person suddenly float into the sky? There's your evidence!

That's exactly the kind of "reasoning" religious people use to justify their beliefs. The analogy is perfect.

Faust

2005-08-24 18:41 | User Profile

Walter Yannis,

But was not America founded by Freemasons?

[QUOTE=Faust]Oh Yes, those evil Satan-worshiping Freemasons like George Washington, Thomas Jefferson. John Adams, and Andrew Jackson... :jester:[/QUOTE]

Angler

2005-08-24 18:43 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Walter Yannis]Most freemasons don't know that they're worshipping Satan, or if the thought does occur to them they push the thought away with an all-in-good-fun shrug. Shriners are emblematic of this.

I think that it's the same with Orthodox Jews, who offer prayers to Satan daily. Shahaak tells us these prayers are meant to trick demons into allowing their real prayers to enter heaven.

But the thing is that Satan is real, and praying to him yields conrete, objective and horrific results, regardless of the supplicant's intentions.

The worship of demons wreaks spiritual havoc in this world.

We must confront it in order to protect ourselves from its effects.[/QUOTE]Two points.

(1) You cannot worship Satan or anything else by accident. Worship is always a willful, conscious activity.

(2) Satan is a mythological being whose role in religion has changed over the centuries. He does NOT exist except in peoples' imaginations. And no, praying to Satan has absolutely no effect whatsoever on anything. If it did, then Satanists would all be millionaires. Witchcraft is a joke, and magic doesn't exist beyond what clowns perform at birthday parties.

Esoterist

2005-08-24 19:45 | User Profile

[color=black]Jewish subversionists infiltrated the major lodges of Western Masonry roughly about the same time as the American Revolution. Washington and company were part of the uninfiltrated structures of Aryan-Hermetic and Christian-Rosicrucian character (explaining Washington's praise of the 'ennobling' effect of Freemasonry). The source of the modern degeneration of Freemasonry can be found in scabrous continental lodges like the Asiatic Brethren, the Nascent Dawn Lodge, and the Hermetic Brotherhood of Luxor. These were created by fanatical, morally depraved, nihilistic followers of the Jewish pseudo-messiahs Sabbatai Zevi and Jacob Frank (thus their name "Shabbatean-Frankists"). Later these Jewish nihilists were to form an alliance with Weishaupt's rationalistic-utopian Illuminati, giving impetus to the rise of revolutionary communist totalitarianism.[/color]

[color=black]Their doctrine basically was that during the Kali Yuga "sin redeems". Subhuman bestialism was thus sancitified. "Nothing is true, all is permitted". Communistic-orgiastic 'sex-magick' and mass murder of those who refused to accept their doctrine (old-line Jews and nonconformist goyim) to 'free the spark of life from the denseness of matter' were specifically praiseworthy deeds to these psychotics. It wouldn't be inaccurate to say that the history of the modern period has been greatly influenced by these nihilistic Jewish subversionists and their spawn (e.g. the OTO) who have crept into the highest levels of Western infrastructure. The Shabbatean-Frankist doctrine of metaphysical inversion and the redemptive power of sin is now the philosophy of the foredoomed modern world.[/color]

Walter Yannis

2005-08-24 19:47 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Faust]Walter Yannis,

But was not America founded by Freemasons?[/QUOTE]

Yes, they were.

I don't understand your point.

Petr

2005-08-24 19:52 | User Profile

America was founded by [B]Puritans[/B], not by late-comers such as Washington and his crew.

Petr

Okiereddust

2005-08-24 19:54 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Angler]You believe in this mythological cartoon character named Satan, and you're questioning my rationality? LOL! Yeah, there's all kinds of evidence that Satan exists! Why, just look at all the bad things in the world! :rolleyes:

That's exactly the kind of "reasoning" religious people use to justify their beliefs. The analogy is perfect.[/QUOTE]I was sort of questioning the basis for your judeoskepticism. Like I pointed out to Il Ragno, on religious matters you guys come up sounding exactly like the ADL, with their rabid skepticism of protestant fundies.

Skepticism over the belief in spirits in general, afterlife, and Satan in general have been basic components of mainstream judaism, except for a few sects, since Roman times. And in modern times, so has skepticism of course of gentile "conspiracy" aka aniti-outgroup, theories.

And Il Ragno had the temerity to question [B]my[/B] philosophy. Seriously when you adopt the religious attitudes of judaism, it seems you drift inexorably to similarity toward many of their political positionsas well, as history proved with the Nazi's, whose positions gradually became indistinguishable from the Communists. Nowadays i.a.w. fashion there's this libertarian instead of socialist tendencies, but the basic dynamics are the same.

Quantrill

2005-08-24 20:18 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Petr]America was founded by Puritans, not by late-comers such as Washington and his crew.[/QUOTE] The colonists of the Jamestown colony, which predated Plymouth, were not Puritans.

Texas Dissident

2005-08-24 20:47 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Faust]But was not America founded by Freemasons?[/QUOTE]

It is my understanding that freemasonry was quite a different animal pre- and post- Albert Pike.

Petr

2005-08-24 20:57 | User Profile

[COLOR=Red][FONT=Arial][B][I] - "The colonists of the Jamestown colony, which predated Plymouth, were not Puritans."[/I][/B][/FONT][/COLOR]

I understand that Jamestown people were "loyalists," whereas Plymouth Puritans were "separatists", so the origin of America as an independent entity should be traced to the latter.

Petr

Angler

2005-08-24 21:09 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Petr]America was founded by [B]Puritans[/B], not by late-comers such as Washington and his crew.[/QUOTE]Nope. The Puritans did not found America. They simply moved here from Europe without founding a new nation. The founders of the USA were those men who laid down the philosophical principles of the new state, instigated the revolution to free the colonies from British control, participated in the drafting of its Constitution, etc. Those were the Founding Fathers: Paine, Jefferson, Franklin, Adams, Madison, Washington, and all the rest.

Okiereddust

2005-08-24 21:27 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Angler]Nope. The Puritans did not found America. They simply moved here from Europe without founding a new nation. The founders of the USA were those men who laid down the philosophical principles of the new state, instigated the revolution to free the colonies from British control, participated in the drafting of its Constitution, etc. Those were the Founding Fathers: Paine, Jefferson, Franklin, Adams, Madison, Washington, and all the rest.[/QUOTE]You studied too much left-wing American revisionist history in school.

You have no more right to say the Puritans had no part in the founding of America because "they didn't draft its constitution, they just moved there" as you do to belittle the role the early settlers such as Stephen Austin, or Travis, Bowie, and Crockett at the Alamo for that matter, played in the founding of Texas.

To think that the founding fathers created a nation for such.

Okiereddust

2005-08-24 21:30 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Petr][COLOR=Red][FONT=Arial][B][I] - "The colonists of the Jamestown colony, which predated Plymouth, were not Puritans."[/I][/B][/FONT][/COLOR]

I understand that Jamestown people were "loyalists," whereas Plymouth Puritans were "separatists", so the origin of America as an independent entity should be traced to the latter.

Petr[/QUOTE]Actually objective historians today categorize Jamestown as an utter failure, and the settlers in terms that we might transparently interpret as "scum", however much the anti-protestant/puritan types might prefer them.

Angler

2005-08-24 21:30 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Okiereddust]You studied too much left-wing American revisionist history in school.[/QUOTE]LOL, you call what I said "revisionist"? My God....

Okiereddust

2005-08-24 22:50 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Angler]LOL, you call what I said "revisionist"? My God....[/QUOTE]I know, my version of the American Revolution is hopelessly backward.

Golly, it doesn't even discuss the influence on it of the Communist Manifesto! :lol:

Faust

2005-08-25 02:13 | User Profile

Okiereddust,

You are very Right! [QUOTE=Okiereddust]You studied too much left-wing American revisionist history in school. You have no more right to say the Puritans had no part in the founding of America because "they didn't draft its constitution, they just moved there" as you do to belittle the role the early settlers such as Stephen Austin, or Travis, Bowie, and Crockett at the Alamo for that matter, played in the founding of Texas. To think that the founding fathers created a nation for such.[/QUOTE]

Faust

2005-08-25 02:15 | User Profile

Walter Yannis,

So do you think was George Washington a Satan worshiper?

Faust

2005-08-25 02:21 | User Profile

Petr does make a good point the Puritans founding America. I meant the post 1776 American government was founded by Freemasons. The modern degeneration of Freemasonry is a complex topic. Esoterist does have a point about Masonry, but it was only around 1900 that pervert pseudo Masonic group came into being. He is right that jew started coing into Masonry in the 1700's. Crowley did not found the Ordo Templis Orientis but he did turn it into a Satan worshiping pervert group.

Blond Knight

2005-08-25 03:22 | User Profile

Freemasonry is the only fraternal organization that had a political party dedicated to opposing said organization, The Anti-Masonic Party of the mid 1800's. The impetus behind the Anit-Masonic movement of that era was the murder of one William Morgan, who after writing a booklet describing masonic rituals and exposing their secrets was given an up close and personal long term look of the bottom of a lake. Of course, the Masons claim that this affair has been blown all out of proportions.

Later in the 1920's the Masons were supposedly against parochial schooling, prefering that all children attend a proper secular, government run school.

On a somewhat related note, in the 1980's we have the Gordon Kahl Affair in North Dakota. Besides speaking out against taxation, global cartels & the New World Order types, Gordon Was also very vocal in his criticism of freemasonry.

After the shootout, when Gordon's son Yorie and two other man were on trial for the killing of the two federal marshals, one critic of the trial, Len Martin, wrote a booklet about the judge in the trial in an attempt to get the judge to sue him for slander. The booklet was titled "Judge Paul Benson, Portrait of A Bastard"

Another interesting book on the Kahl fiasco was written by the Chief of Police in the town of Medina, North Dakota when the shootout took place. The book is titled "It's All About Power" ISBN# 0942323319 (Authors: Steve Schnabel & Darrell Graf)

Len Martins book is available at Emmisary Publications. (see link below my signature)

LM-101 JUDGE PAUL BENSON: PORTRAIT OF A BASTARD by Len Martin $5.00

By Len Martin -- This explosive book caused a tremendous uproar in North Dakota when it was recently published. It was published in hopes of initiating a lawsuit for slander by Judge Benson against the author. (The title of the book is derived from Hebrews 12:8).

Len Martin tells the true story behind one of the most infamous trials of recent time ... that of Scott Faul, Yorie Kahl and Dave Broer. The trial resulted from the unwarranted attack by U.S. Marshals on Gordon Kahl and a number of his family and friends on a lonely road in North Dakota in 1983. (Later, Gordon Kahl was killed and then mutilated by "the authorities" in Arkansas).

Refusing to allow important evidence to be admitted and critical lines of questioning to be pursued were just two of the ways in which Judge Paul Benson manipulated the jury and turned the proceedings into a Kangaroo Court. Two young men are serving life sentences in prison as a result of the actions of the main character in Judge Paul Benson: Portrait of a Bastard.

P.S. The Christian Defense League lists 8 books by Len Martin: [url]http://www.cdlreport.com/patrioticbooks.htm[/url]

Okiereddust

2005-08-25 03:24 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Faust]Petr does make a good point the Puritans founding America. I meant the post 1776 American government was founded by Freemasons. The modern degeneration of Freemasonry is a complex topic.[/QUOTE]Well I'm not sure it is really accurate to say America was "founded by Freemasons" anymore than say to say it was founded by slaveholders. Sure some of the founders were Masons, and occasionally it did affect their outlook, (like Ben Franklins description on a dollar bill). By and large I think its just an eccentricity. To the extent it is we might also of course note that the founding, although more brilliant than hardly any modern work of statescraft, certainly wasn't without flaws.

albion

2005-08-25 05:35 | User Profile

[font=Arial]In August 1784 General Lafayette visited George Washington, and brought with him a white satin Masonic apron depicting a compilation of masonic emblems that were beautifully embroidered on the apron by his wife, Marquise Lafayette, it being her gift.

On July 3, 1829 the Lafayette Apron was presented to the Grand Lodge of Pennsylvania by the Washington Benevolent Society and is now on display in the Grand Lodge Museum at the [/font][url="http://www.pagrandlodge.org/home.html"][font=Arial][color=#0000ff]Masonic Temple in Philadelphia[/color][/font][/url][font=Arial]. [/font] [img]http://www.doles.org/DelkNews12/grafix-12/Washington4.jpg[/img][img]http://www.pagrandlodge.org/mlam/museumpieces/sash-museum.jpg[/img]Franklin's sash [font=Arial]Here a painting of George Washington wearing the masonic apron presented to him by Lafayette August of 1784

Founded in 1908, the Museum was dedicated by [url="http://www.pagrandlodge.org/mlam/jw.html"][color=#0000ff]Brother John Wanamaker[/color][/url], a prominent Philadelphia merchant who served as the first Chairman of the Library Committee. The Museum's collection consists of more than thirty thousand items. Some prominent pieces on display are the [url="http://www.pagrandlodge.org/mlam/apron/index.html"][color=#0000ff]Masonic apron presented in 1784 by Brother Marquis de Lafayette to Brother General George Washington[/color][/url] and [url="http://www.pagrandlodge.org/mlam/sash.html"][color=#0000ff]Brother Benjamin Franklin's 1779 Masonic sash[/color][/url]. [/font]

G.Larson

2005-08-25 08:24 | User Profile

Lucifer and Satan are two different beings. Freemasonry was started by Aryans to carry on the ancient and great work but was starting to be hijacked by jews around 1717 and by 1796 they had there claws in. Mordern day freemasonry is the judeo bastard child of noble forefathers. Christianity springs from the same root as judism. So it stands as no surprise that its destructive effects are substantially similar.

[QUOTE=Walter Yannis]Not so.

They accept and deny, proclaim and equivocate.

But worship Satan they most certainly do.

Petr

2005-08-25 11:24 | User Profile

[COLOR=DarkOliveGreen][FONT=Arial][B][I] - "Freemasonry was started by Aryans to carry on the ancient and great work but was starting to be hijacked by jews around 1717 and by 1796 they had there claws in. "[/I][/B][/FONT][/COLOR]

May we see some documentation for this "hijacking"? I think your grasp on the history of Freemasonry is just as weak as on the history of Christianity.

Petr

G.Larson

2005-08-25 14:22 | User Profile

The Masonic Constitution of 1717 is where Masonry departed from the way. And it was in 1776 where it was further corrupted by the infusion of the universalist Illuminati, started by Weishaupt. My "grasp" is fine considering the fact my Uncle was a 33 degree Master Mason and my grandfather was a Mason and so is a few of my good friends and Iam still considering joining as I could walk in as a Lewis. After 20 years of being christian, being raised christian, my understanding of chrisitanity is fine, the problem is with you and the fact it is not the answer you want to hear.

[QUOTE=Petr][color=darkolivegreen][font=Arial] - "Freemasonry was started by Aryans to carry on the ancient and great work but was starting to be hijacked by jews around 1717 and by 1796 they had there claws in. "[/font][/color]

May we see some documentation for this "hijacking"? I think your grasp on the history of Freemasonry is just as weak as on the history of Christianity.

Petr[/QUOTE]

Walter Yannis

2005-08-26 12:18 | User Profile

[QUOTE=G.Larson]Lucifer and Satan are two different beings. Freemasonry was started by Aryans to carry on the ancient and great work but was starting to be hijacked by jews around 1717 and by 1796 they had there claws in. Mordern day freemasonry is the judeo bastard child of noble forefathers. Christianity springs from the same root as judism. So it stands as no surprise that its destructive effects are substantially similar.[/QUOTE]

Do you admit then that Masons worship Lucifer?

Walter Yannis

2005-08-26 12:28 | User Profile

[QUOTE=Faust]Walter Yannis,

So do you think was George Washington a Satan worshiper?[/QUOTE]

Yes.

Masonry is Kabbalah for gentiles.

Kabbalah, like all gnostic movements, is an alternate pagan-occult narrative to the orthodox Christian one.

God becomes some lesser created being, the universe was created by a lesser (and more easily influenced) god. Masonry is a synthesis of usual pagan darkness and error - worship of a created spirit called Lucifer the Light Bearer (or his subterranean counterpart, Tubal Cain/Vulcan) instead of the First Cause.

Washington was a major acolyte of this religion. Maybe he didn't subjectively appreciate the fact that he was part of a profoundly anti-Christian religious movement, but the fact remains that he objectively was.

I believe that the United States was, as in the kabbalistic creation myth, flawed in its very inception. Masonic-occult symbols adorn our public buildings, our money, and indeed form the basis of the very layout of Washington, D.C. Washington's monument, for example, is an Egyptian obelisk.

While the overwhelming majority of the founding generation of Americans were Christians, their leadership was thoroughly imbued with the smoke of Satan.

And I think our history manifests a definite tension between Christian faith and the Masonic drive to worldly power and glory.

G.Larson

2005-08-27 07:46 | User Profile

I admit that I do not care.

[QUOTE=Walter Yannis]Do you admit then that Masons worship Lucifer?[/QUOTE]

Petr

2005-08-27 08:00 | User Profile

The road to hell (both in secular and celestial sense) is paved with "I don't care"-attitude.

Petr

Walter Yannis

2005-08-27 08:40 | User Profile

[QUOTE=G.Larson]I admit that I do not care.[/QUOTE] Okay, but then why participate in a discussion you care nothing about?

Are you deliberately trying to waste my time?

albion

2005-08-27 11:51 | User Profile

[size=3]Blood on the Altar: The Secret History of the World's Most Dangerous Secret Society (Paperback) [/size]by [url="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&rank=relevancerank&field-author-exact=Craig%20Heimbichner/002-7076778-6792821"][color=#003399]Craig Heimbichner[/color][/url] [url="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0970378432/002-7076778-6792821?v=glance"]http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0970378432/002-7076778-6792821?v=glance[/url]

They Worship the Light Bearer, June 17, 2005 Reviewer: AJ West -- Mr. Heimbichner's excellent expose' of the demonic subculture known as the OTO causes one to pause and to re-evaluate the whole social order that has seemed inverted for years. Finally, we have an easy to read, well documented, and frightening explanation of what has been happening to our society for at least the last 50 years. If you have ever wondered why everything seems to be upside-down and backward here is a significant piece of the puzzle that few people have investigated so meticulously. This book is not for the faint of heart nor for those who wish to live blissfully ignorant. Nevertheless, if you are willing to go where angels (except the dark ones) fear to tread then this is the book for you. The Satanists are in control and most people don't even know it. This book will explain why most people live like they are Satanists even though the claim to be Christian. They have been slowly, methodically, and diabolically seduced by the "Dark Side." These evil men first broke down the moral strength of most men by attacking through the sexual appetites. Once establishing the sexual revolution it was easy to break down the rest of the moral law in the lives of most men. Thank you Mr. Heimbichner for opening our eyes. Knowledge is power and being forewarned is being forearmed. By knowing what you have revealed we can begin the process of recognition and stop being subversively manipulated. Excellent! As difficult as it was to take we owe you a debt of gratitude for your courage and forthright exposition of Satanic influence in Church and State. Now comes the real work, reversing the destruction and healing the souls of millions.

Petr

2005-08-27 14:36 | User Profile

[I]As you can see, Pike was no banal "evil is cool" Satanist ÃÂ¡ la Anton LaVey but taught that Lucifer was a Promethean benefactor of mankind. Truly, evil is at its most potent when it is spiced up with a dose of superficial "goodness," and lies at their most efficient with some half-truths added in.[/I]

[url]http://www.freedom-ministries.com/leo-taxil-fraud/index.html[/url]

[COLOR=DarkRed][FONT=Trebuchet MS]... [SIZE=3] Pike describes the cabalistic view of Satan in his book [I]Morals and Dogma[/I], published in 1871 for the Southern Jurisdiction of Scottish Rite Freemasonry:

[I][B]"The true name of Satan, the Kabalists say, is that of Yahveh [sic] reversed; for Satan is not a black god, but the negation of God[/B]. The Devil is the personification of Atheism or Idolatry.

"[B]For the Initiates, this is not a Person, but a Force, created for good, but which may serve for evil. It is the instrument of Liberty or Free Will[/B]. They represent this Force, which presides over the physical generation, under the mythologic and horned form of the God Pan; thence came the he-goat of the Sabbat, brother of the Ancient Serpent, and the Light-bearer or Phosphor, of which the poets have made the false Lucifer of the Legend.[/I]

[B]Pike accuses poets of falsifying the nature and role of Lucifer by making him Satan[/B]. For example, Longfellow believed Satan was the Fallen Angel.

[B]In contrast, Pike's writings teach that Lucifer never fell, that he is the light of the world, equal in power to Almighty God, yet less transcendent at the present time[/B]. To stress his point, in Morals and Dogma Pike ridicules the book of Revelation for denying Lucifer equality with God: "[I]The Apocalypse is.. .the Apotheosis of that Sublime Faith which aspires to God alone, and despises all the pomps and works of Lucifer....[/I]

Pike's scorn is directed toward those who have faith only in the God of the Apocalypse without giving Lucifer due respect. He continues his eulogy to Lucifer in the next sentence: "[I]Strange and mysterious name to give to the spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish souls? Doubt it not! [/I]"

[B]Pike believed the pagan doctrine that Lucifer was the beneficent god who taught men science[/B]. Warren Weston, in [I]Father of Lies[/I] (1930s), confirms that the ancients knew Lucifer as

[I][B]"Prometheus,[/B] the friend of men, who gave them fire, taught them all the crafts, showed them the rich ore and precious stones buried in the earth.... It is for these countless benefactions conferred on humanity that the jealous spirits who claim to be true gods have combined against him and wronged him. He is the brightest angel unjustly cast out of heaven, Lucifer, son of the morning.[/I]

...[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]

Petr

2005-08-27 14:46 | User Profile

Iraqi Yezidis seem to share Albert Pike's "happy-face" Luciferianism:

[url]http://www.originaldissent.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19582&highlight=yezidi[/url]

[FONT=Georgia][COLOR=Blue][B]"[U]In Yezidi belief, Lucifer is not a fallen angel, or the enemy of God[/U]. In Yezidi cosmology, the universal Spirit (the Supreme deity) created a pearl, which became broken after a period of forty thousand years. Melek, or Lucifer, used the remains of the pearl to create the material world. After this creation, the Spirit created the remaining Angels. [U]Yezidi theology claims that Lucifer was forgiven for his transgressions, and those who revere him are the spiritual elect of humanity[/U]. They are forbidden from referring to him as Satan."[/B][/COLOR][/FONT]

These sort of "positive Luciferians" are IMHO much more dangerous than some pathetic black-metal ogres who just embarrass themselves.

(It actually resembles much the way how suave suit-and-tie lobbyists advance the program of some extremist party much better than crude street-brawlers and exhibitionists)

Petr

albion

2005-08-27 16:50 | User Profile

The Al-Jilwah, [url="http://www.angelfire.com/empire/serpentis666/BLACK.html"][color=#ff0000]**[color=black]THE BLACK BOOK OF SATAN[/color]**[/url] [/color]

[color=#ff0000][url="http://www.angelfire.com/empire/serpentis666/BLACK.html"]http://www.angelfire.com/empire/serpentis666/BLACK.html[/url]

[color=black]written by Prophet Sheik Adi, dictated by Satan, himself. There are references to his being the creator of humanity. Satan relates he has "ALLOWED the creation of 4 substances, because they are necessary things for creatures." These are the nucleotides in the DNA. Enki's number is 40.[/color]

[/color]

**The Satanic Rituals**, by Anton Szandor LaVey

Therein, LaVey includes the Black Book of Satan; The Al-Jilwah, the most important document in Traditional Satanism,(see link above) several rituals from various parts of the world, the Traditional Black Mass and intriguing information on the Yezidi peoples who were as a group, Devil Worshippers. :evil:

--- ### G.Larson *2005-08-28 16:39* | [User Profile](/od/user/1360) Well then Iam on the highway to hell, no stop signs, speed limits, nothing is going to slow me down. [QUOTE=Petr]The road to hell (both in secular and celestial sense) is paved with "I don't care"-attitude. Petr[/QUOTE] --- ### G.Larson *2005-08-28 16:46* | [User Profile](/od/user/1360) [QUOTE=Walter Yannis]Okay, but then why participate in a discussion you care nothing about?[/Quote] Did not feel like repeating myself. [quote=Walter Yannis]Are you deliberately trying to waste my time?[/QUOTE] Seems like the reverse is true. --- ### G.Larson *2005-08-28 16:52* | [User Profile](/od/user/1360) The split is the Mason types believe in Lucifer as a type of Cosmic force or Archtype force/principal. Where the Spiritual Satanist/Luciferians believe in him like christians believe in there God. One is deist one is thiest. --- ### Walter Yannis *2005-08-30 13:47* | [User Profile](/od/user/57) [QUOTE=G.Larson]The split is the Mason types believe in Lucifer as a type of Cosmic force or Archtype force/principal. Where the Spiritual Satanist/Luciferians believe in him like christians believe in there God. One is deist one is thiest.[/QUOTE] Sounds like you're interested in the question, despite your protestations to the contrary. You admit, then, that Masons worship Lucifer. Your father was Mason, and thus by your own admission it follows that he was a Luciferian. Do you also consider yourself to be a Luciferian? A note to the Christians here: Any questions? How about you, Faust? Was George Washington a Christian? --- ### Texas Dissident *2005-08-30 14:15* | [User Profile](/od/user/1) [QUOTE=Walter Yannis]Was George Washington a Christian?[/QUOTE] Yes, I think so. I heard a guy on Dr. D. James Kennedy's 'Truths that Transform' radio show speaking to this very subject. I don't have all the details documented and such, but he said the famous painting of Washington in mason garb was not real, in that Washington never posed for it. His main thrust was that freemasonry was a very different animal pre and post Pike. It started out as a very European and Christian fraternal organization, but it was Pike who brought in all the occultism and made the purging of Christianity from freemasonry his single, most pressing mission. FWIW --- ### il ragno *2005-08-30 14:39* | [User Profile](/od/user/85) Seems like *every* time this place gets any kind of a head of steam under it, the charter members of the Christian Taliban will root around seekig some illusory 'wedge' with which to antagonize and pillory the rest of us. So help me, this 'Masons are Satanic' nonsense has got to be the most counterproductive of all the Petr/Yannis 'initiatives'. Now it's "the Founding Fathers were witches who held black masses and danced 'round an upside down cross". Does it *never* dawn on you why it is your ranks get thinner and thinner, year after year? Why America sees each succeeding generation mired further and further in secularism? It's because of the zero-sum, witchfinder-general worldview of the repulsive "Christian Taliban"....whose most fervent belief is that worse is best - not "better"....*best!* - and that a return to superstitious tribalism, following a complete economic and infrastructure collapse, is to be devoutly [u]prayed for[/u]. Thank God there are only a handful of you lunatics out there in the first place....at least Lindstedt had a sense of humor to go with his delusional insanity. --- ### Sertorius *2005-08-30 14:43* | [User Profile](/od/user/26) This is why I don't waste time arguing about Freemasonary. There are more visible things out there to focus on. --- ### Texas Dissident *2005-08-30 15:03* | [User Profile](/od/user/1) [QUOTE=il ragno]Now it's "the Founding Fathers were witches who held black masses and danced 'round an upside down cross".[/QUOTE] I don't know if I'm a charter member of the Christian Taliban or not, but I'm arguing the opposite. Freemasonry fundamentally changed with Albert Pike. --- ### Petr *2005-08-30 15:48* | [User Profile](/od/user/1012) Tex, you should know that Il Ragno (much like Alex Linder) won't let the facts get in the way of a good caricature. He seems to have an opinion that an artist has a right to bend the truth here and there if the outcome is just impressive enough. Petr --- ### Texas Dissident *2005-08-30 16:13* | [User Profile](/od/user/1) [QUOTE=Petr]Tex, you should know that Il Ragno (much like Alex Linder) won't let the facts get in the way of a good caricature. I wouldn't place IR anywhere near the same category as Linder, from what I've seen and read at least. Linder is a vile and crude coward that hides behind the skirts of women like Mrs. Sheehan and Bin Laden and his band of camel jockeys to try and advance his nihilistic and delusionally paranoid agenda. > He seems to have an opinion that an artist has a right to bend the truth here and there if the outcome is just impressive enough. IR to the side, to be honest I have to admit that I'm a little sympathetic to that approach. Where one may be convinced of something through pure arguments of fact and logic, another is persuaded by a song lyric or bit of prose. As long as it isn't willfully dishonest, then I think propaganda certainly has its place, but I understand your point. --- ### Walter Yannis *2005-08-30 17:57* | [User Profile](/od/user/57) [QUOTE]So help me, this 'Masons are Satanic' nonsense [/QUOTE] Why is it nonsense? I've proved that Freemasons worship Lucifer, and even wheedled an admission of same from the good Mr. Larson. There's no nonsense here. The question is whether the statement that Freemasons are Luciferian is either true or it is false. I've proved it true. Calling it "nonsense" is just more of your girlish throwing of verbal dishes because you lack all reasoned argument. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Ragman: you think like a chick. You're saying here in effect "if we admit that Freemasons worship Lucifer then it follows that Christians really couldn't deal with them, but I don't like that conclusion, so it can't be true." It's like talking to my 17 year old daughter, or indeed with Mrs. Yannis on most issues. You lack the ability to separate your emotions from your reason. This trait is bad enough in chicks - it is very unbecoming in a man. Think with your head, not your heart. Now, I have shown that Freemasonry is Luciferian. It follows that for a Christian to cooperate with Freemasons can only constitute a betrayal of our God, and we may have nothing to do with it. It's a "wedge" issue only if you assume - and we've discussed this before - that Petr and I are members of some White Nationalist movement that we're supposed to place before all esle. But I'm not a member of the WN movement, although I'm not above using the WN term as a short of shorthand for paleoconservatism. I'm a member of the Jesus movement, and really that's all. Nothing can be more fundamentally opposed to the Cause of Christ than the worship of Lucifer. The Freemasons worship Lucifer, ergo I have no greater enemy than Freemasons. Why can't you get this? I mean, it's been years, dude, and you're still on the rag about this. --- ### Walter Yannis *2005-08-30 18:07* | [User Profile](/od/user/57) [QUOTE=Texas Dissident]I IR to the side, to be honest I have to admit that I'm a little sympathetic to that approach. Where one may be convinced of something through pure arguments of fact and logic, another is persuaded by a song lyric or bit of prose. As long as it isn't willfully dishonest, then I think propaganda certainly has its place, but I understand your point.[/QUOTE] But the point is here, Tex, that Freemasonry is willfully dishonest. Review Morals and Dogma. They state forthrightly that they lie even to their own initiates about their true aims, and about the real meaning of their rites and symbols. Pike states forthrightly that Freemasonry is Luciferian. Mr. Larson appears to attempt to explain this away by positing some dichotomy between good Masonic Luciferian religion and bad Satanic Luciferian religion, but we obviously must reject such parsing of differences out of hand. None of us may have anything to do with Freemasonry and continue to call ourselves disciples of Christ. A man cannot serve two masters, after all. And there are no two masters more fundamentally at odds with each other than Christ and Lucifer. Ragman's lyrical approach is thoroughly dishonest here. He's attempting to get us to paper over the eternal abyss that separates the Kingdom of Christ from Hell as if it's some minor crack in the living room wall plaster. Not a bit of it. Freemasonry is the enemy. We must not allow ourselves to be deluded on that score. --- ### Petr *2005-08-30 18:19* | [User Profile](/od/user/1012) [COLOR=Indigo][FONT=Arial][B][I] - "Ragman's lyrical approach is thoroughly dishonest here. He's attempting to get us to paper over the eternal abyss that separates the Kingdom of Christ from Hell as if it's some minor crack in the living room wall plaster."[/I][/B][/FONT][/COLOR] Yup. "Can't we all just get along?" Petr --- ### Walter Yannis *2005-08-30 18:24* | [User Profile](/od/user/57) [QUOTE=Texas Dissident]Yes, I think so. I heard a guy on Dr. D. James Kennedy's 'Truths that Transform' radio show speaking to this very subject. I don't have all the details documented and such, but he said the famous painting of Washington in mason garb was not real, in that Washington never posed for it. His main thrust was that freemasonry was a very different animal pre and post Pike. It started out as a very European and Christian fraternal organization, but it was Pike who brought in all the occultism and made the purging of Christianity from freemasonry his single, most pressing mission. FWIW[/QUOTE] I don't think that's right. Freemasonry springs from the Knights Templar, which was a Luciferian/Gnostic outfit, as you probably know. The KTs ran to Scotland, and modern Freemasonry has its roots in Britain. The Kabbalah is cut from the same dirty cloth as the religion of the KTs. The Kabbalah preceeds Pike by centuries, and the Kabbalah is a profoundly Luciferian thing. It's not a pleasant thing to admit that our founding fathers were infected with this pagan "seeking after light" but we must always look the truth in the eye. In my opinion, the unspoken paganism of the Founders lies at the root of our current cultural decay. In order to make America a Christian nation, at some point we'll have to confront this uncomfortable truth. --- ### il ragno *2005-08-30 18:40* | [User Profile](/od/user/85) [QUOTE]Il Ragno (much like Alex Linder) won't let the facts get in the way of a good caricature. He seems to have an opinion that an artist has a right to bend the truth here and there if the outcome is just impressive enough.[/QUOTE] Even for you, an incoherent argument. (Especially since the 'facts' that form the bedrock of all your beliefs are not only mythological in nature, but that you assume for yourself the status of being one of the [I]very very few[/I] people on Earth with the required parsing intelligence to correctly [U]interpret[/U] that dogma.) But never mind that - where on this thread have I said [I]anything[/I], pro [B]or [/B] con, about Aleister Crowley (since I can't think of any other 'artist', offhand, whose name has come up in relation to this topic?) And why is it you [I]never [/I] roll out the anti-Mason guns when someone here launches a thread on Kipling's poetry? [QUOTE]I've said it before and I'll say it again, Ragman: you think like a chick.[/QUOTE] Oy vey ist mir: give it [I]up [/I] already, Yannis. Since I don't leave you the option of picking apart my theology, you keep firing the same bullet at me over and over: [I]"you throw just like a girl!"[/I] You know damned well what I'm saying....whenever you and Petr get to hold the whip around this place, the inevitable result is a ghost-town. Now don't bother to point out to me that presiding over a ghost town is jake with you, because we all know that's the case. You keep proudly stating that you [I]know [/I] that you're pushing a cult-mentality, and that that's the whole [I]point [/I] of exhorting the faithful to dash children's heads against rocks, but - gosh darn it - that's just what it's gonna take to reach the Promised Land. We all know the difference between you amd Lindstedt is that you make a lot more money and that you know better than to make a public spectacle of yourself when the authorities are in earshot. Some Chuck Martel [I]you[/I] are. But I'm telling you that you're [I]far [/I] more Walter Mitty than El Cid (and that your wife and kids know this), and that your ideological hair-splitting over what, in this case, is historical minutiae of little import to anyone serves only two purposes: 1. to reinforce your, and Petr's, sense of "you see?; they're all hellbound fools but me and thee - only [I]we two [/I] hold the keys to the secret store of true knowledge"; and 2. to, hopefully, cause enough disgruntlement to [I]thin out the herd once again [/I] to a devout and docile few. And this is why it [I]doesn't matter [/I] if some deluded lodge members knowingly or unknowingly worshipped Lucifer or Prometheus or the volcano gods of Bora Bora: Because if - [U]today[/U] - I drew a pentagram on my kitchen floor, fastened goat leggings onto my calves, chanted arcane Latin incantations asking Satan to grant me riches and glory in exchage for my soul and the souls of others; [U]tomorrow[/U], I'd [I]still [/I] have to shit, shave and shower before running to catch the 7.45 to work! Get it? **Nothing would happen!** Except my feeling and looking like an [I]idiot[/I], what with the goat leggings and the inverted crucifixes drawn on my forehead and a pentagram on the linoleum floor that I now have to pray to the Household Solvent gods that Formula 409 can remove. And - like me - most sentient beings don't spend a lot of time fretting about superstitious mumbo jumbo that, in the 21st century, only the bushmen of the Kalihari still believe in. Well - [I]them[/I], El Cid cultists and one appallingly humorless Finnish fundamentalist in whose mouth freakin' [I]butter [/I] wouldn't melt. --- ### Walter Yannis *2005-08-30 19:10* | [User Profile](/od/user/57) [QUOTE][l ragno]Oy vey ist mir: give it [I]up [/I] already, Yannis. Since I don't leave you the option of picking apart my theology, you keep firing the same bullet at me over and over: [I]"you throw just like a girl!"[/I] [/QUOTE] Hey, if you'd stop reasoning like a chick I might stop noticing. Until then, I'm compelled to point out the obvious. [QUOTE]You know damned well what I'm saying....whenever you and Petr get to hold the whip around this place, the inevitable result is a ghost-town. Now don't bother to point out to me that presiding over a ghost town is jake with you, because we all know that's the case. You keep proudly stating that you [I]know [/I] that you're pushing a cult-mentality, and that that's the whole [I]point [/I] of exhorting the faithful to dash children's heads against rocks, but - gosh darn it - that's just what it's gonna take to reach the Promised Land. We all know the difference between you amd Lindstedt is that you make a lot more money and that you know better than to make a public spectacle of yourself when the authorities are in earshot. Some Chuck Martel [I]you[/I] are. [/QUOTE] Yeah, okay. Fine. So far, so good. [QUOTE]But I'm telling you that you're [I]far [/I] more Walter Mitty than El Cid [/QUOTE] True. [QUOTE](and that your wife and kids know this),[/QUOTE] True [QUOTE]and that your ideological hair-splitting over what, in this case, is historical minutiae of little import to anyone serves only two purposes: [/QUOTE] False. There's no more central issue than the worship of Lucifer verses the worship of God. The fact is that Freemasonry is the enemy of all that we associate with the word "paleoconservative." Masons were instrumental in the French Revolution, the catastrophic upheavels of 1848, and the Russian revolutionary movements. Freemasonry was the driving force behind the de-Christianization of Europe. Hair-splitting?! No way. It is perhaps the central problem of our modern history. [QUOTE]1. to reinforce your, and Petr's, sense of "you see?; they're all hellbound fools but me and thee - only [I]we two [/I] hold the keys to the secret store of true knowledge"; and [/QUOTE] Wrong again. Freemasons are the ones who claim some esoteric gnosis. Christians claim that the Truth is hanging there crucified for all the world to see. There's nothing up the sleeve of the Gospel. No secret ways to salvation for us. I can't speak for Petr but I'll leave who goes to hell up to God, although one can always make an educated guess. [QUOTE]2. to, hopefully, cause enough disgruntlement to [I]thin out the herd once again [/I] to a devout and docile few.[/QUOTE] I tell you what, why don't we Christians just join hands with Luciferians and sing Kumbaya, and then have a nice, warm group hug? [QUOTE]Because if - [U]today[/U] - I drew a pentagram on my kitchen floor, fastened goat leggings onto my calves, chanted arcane Latin incantations asking Satan to grant me riches and glory in exchage for my soul and the souls of others; [U]tomorrow[/U], I'd [I]still [/I] have to shit, shave and shower before running to catch the 7.45 to work! Get it? **Nothing would happen!** [/QUOTE] That's not right. Contact with the occult would cause terrible damage to your soul. You can't see it, but it would be there. --- ### Petr *2005-08-30 19:13* | [User Profile](/od/user/1012) [FONT=Arial][COLOR=DarkRed][B] - "And why is it you [I]never[/I] roll out the anti-Mason guns when someone here launches a thread on Kipling's poetry? "[/B][/COLOR][/FONT] Because it's not the low-level Masons that we are after, but upper-degree esoteric conspirators [B]that are by their own admission deceiving even their own underlings[/B]. [COLOR=Red][FONT=Trebuchet MS]"Fictions are necessary to the people, and the Truth becomes deadly to those who are not strong enough to contemplate it in all its brilliance. In fact, what can there be in common between the vile multitude and sublime wisdom? [B]The truth must be kept secret, and the masses need a teaching proportioned to their imperfect reason[/B]." Morals and Dogma[/I], page 103 [/FONT] [/COLOR] [FONT=Trebuchet MS][COLOR=Red]"The Blue Degrees are but the outer court of the Temple. [B]Part of the symbols are displayed there to the initiate, but he is intentionally misled by false interpretations[/B]. It is not intended that he shall understand them; but it is intended that he shall imagine he understands them. Their true explication is reserved for the Adepts, the Princes of Masonry. [I]Morals And Dogma[/I], page 819[/COLOR][/FONT] [url]http://freemasonrywatch.org/2index.html[/url] For this same reason we don't think that every hapless Jew on the street is connected to AIPAC or PNAC conspiracies, but we can actually find many "decent Jews" like Israel Shahak or Murray Rothbard. We could (in the earthly sense, God's judgment is another matter) find multitudes of "decent Masons" as well. Petr --- ### il ragno *2005-08-30 19:15* | [User Profile](/od/user/85) [QUOTE]That's not right. Contact with the occult would cause terrible damage to your soul. You can't see it, but it would be there.[/QUOTE] Well then you can rest easy. I'm all out of chalk and candles, and the Mexicans around here leave [I]no [/I] part of the goat uneaten. --- ### Petr *2005-08-30 19:24* | [User Profile](/od/user/1012) [FONT=Arial][COLOR=DarkRed][B][I] - "Because if - today - I drew a pentagram on my kitchen floor, fastened goat leggings onto my calves, chanted arcane Latin incantations asking Satan to grant me riches and glory in exchage for my soul and the souls of others; tomorrow, I'd still have to shit, shave and shower before running to catch the 7.45 to work!"[/I][/B][/COLOR][/FONT] Raggie, consider this ego-deflating possibility: the Prince of Darkness [B]may simply not consider average schmoes like you worth communicating with[/B]. It's probably the already rich and corrupt movers and shakers that he is more interested in recruiting for his cause. He's an elitist pig, not willing to hang around with just any human rabble like Jesus Christ mercifully did. Petr --- ### il ragno *2005-08-30 20:38* | [User Profile](/od/user/85) I figure he'd materialize in a flourish of sulphur, check his palm pilot a moment, and inform me that my soul has been scheduled for delivery to the Lake of Fire since 1978. But he'd be happy to throw me a two-longshot trifecta at Belmont Park if I could somehow get a nuke-Israel op-ed published in the *New York Times*. --- ### Petr *2005-08-30 20:51* | [User Profile](/od/user/1012) [COLOR=DarkRed][FONT=Arial][B][I] - "But he'd be happy to throw me a two-longshot trifecta at Belmont Park if I could somehow get a nuke-Israel op-ed published in the New York Times."[/I][/B][/FONT][/COLOR] Ho ho. You sure seem to have a fixation on nuking Israel - and are yet posing as some sort of paragon of rationality. Of course the prospect of Israel's nuclear counter-attack on European cities wouldn't bother you. Petr --- ### il ragno *2005-08-30 21:17* | [User Profile](/od/user/85) [QUOTE]Ho ho. You sure seem to have a fixation on nuking Israel - and are yet posing as some sort of paragon of rationality. Of course the prospect of Israel's nuclear counter-attack on European cities wouldn't bother you.[/QUOTE] No prob for you, Petr. Just drop to your knees and ask your personal friend Jesus to save you from the incoming warheads with a force-field of faith. That's [I]plenty[/I] rational. Israel must be destroyed, both to dispel the specter of their eventually destroying Europe, as well as putting an end to the nuclear blackmail they threaten their 'friends' with. I never said "go in with fanfare and cannons and drop your payload on a live satellite hookup"....obviously any nullifying of the Israeli threat will require stealth and careful planning and coordination: thinking Jewish, in other words. But you know what? At least [I]I[/I] see Isreal and recognize a dire threat to humanity....[I]you're [/I] running around Elks and Moose lodges looking for telltale smears of brimstone behind the podium. Who's irrational [U]now[/U]? --- ### Faust *2005-08-30 22:50* | [User Profile](/od/user/60) Walter Yannis, Oh those Luciferian cultists... [QUOTE][img]http://www.doles.org/DelkNews12/grafix-12/Washington4.jpg[/img][/QUOTE] --- ### albion *2005-08-30 23:44* | [User Profile](/od/user/1350) [img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/5d/AlbertPikeOlder.jpeg/180px-AlbertPikeOlder.jpeg[/img] **Albert Pike In Freemasonry** He had in the interim joined a Masonic lodge and become extremely active in the affairs of the organization, being elected Sovereign Grand Commander of the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Rite"][color=#0000ff]Scottish Rite[/color][/url]'s Southern Jurisdiction in 1859, also that year having received an honorary Ph.D. from Harvard. He remained Sovereign Grand Commander for the remainder of his life (a total of 32 years), devoting a large amount of his time to perfection of the rituals of the order. Notably, he published a book called *[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morals_and_Dogma_of_the_Ancient_and_Accepted_Scottish_Rite_of_Freemasonry"][color=#0000ff]Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry[/color][/url]* in 1872, of which there were several subsequent editions. **Albert Pike and the Ku Klux Klan** [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Pike#Albert_Pike_and_the_Ku_Klux_Klan"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Pike#Albert_Pike_and_the_Ku_Klux_Klan[/url] As the boss of all the southern secret societies and simultaneously president of the Tennessee Bar Association, Pike was the grand strategist of Klan "justice." It is to be stressed that Walter Fleming's book was not a slander or hatchet job against Albert Pike. Though it revealed much important data for the first time, it placed the KKK and Pike in the most favorable possible light. The book was a hit among diehard Confederates and Anglo-Saxon "race patriots," and it launched Fleming's career as the dean of southern historians. --- ### il ragno *2005-08-31 00:53* | [User Profile](/od/user/85) I dunno: maybe I'm foolishly dismissing this 'threat'. On the other hand, there are very very few guinea masons. *Free*masons, that is. Most of our masons wear sweat-bandanas and scoop cement on trowels. --- ### Faust *2005-08-31 01:23* | [User Profile](/od/user/60) albion, Wow, that Wikimedia makes Albert Pike sound like one of the good guys; a Patriot, Confederate and Klansman, what is people dislike about him? Several close relatives of mine were Masons and one a 33rd Degree Mason. Hail the Craft! :yes: :cheers: :yes: --- ### albion *2005-08-31 03:21* | [User Profile](/od/user/1350) [img]http://dan.danmax.net/images/lux/burn_in_hell.jpg[/img] ***"I dunno: maybe I'm foolishly dismissing this 'threat'."*** [ il ragno burning in the everlasting fires of hell after ignoring the Petr / Yannis Freemasonic warnings and admonishments ... ] --- ### Walter Yannis *2005-08-31 05:01* | [User Profile](/od/user/57) [QUOTE=Faust]albion, Wow, that Wikimedia makes Albert Pike sound like one of the good guys; a Patriot, Confederate and Klansman, what is people dislike about him? Several close relatives of mine were Masons and one a 33rd Degree Mason. Hail the Craft! :yes: :cheers: :yes:[/QUOTE] You've seen what Pike wrote about Lucifer in his book, quoted above. Thus, you're saying here in effect "Hail Lucifer." --- ### Angler *2005-08-31 05:41* | [User Profile](/od/user/230) [QUOTE=Petr]Raggie, consider this ego-deflating possibility: the Prince of Darkness [B]may simply not consider average schmoes like you worth communicating with[/B]. It's probably the already rich and corrupt movers and shakers that he is more interested in recruiting for his cause. He's an elitist pig, not willing to hang around with just any human rabble like Jesus Christ mercifully did.[/QUOTE]Once when I was summoning the Ol' Scratch in a demonic ritual in my cellar, I took a moment out of my usual ceremonial praise for His Dark Majesty in order to ask him about this. He told me that he's basically an egalitarian and would *like* to tempt everybody, but time doesn't permit it. Satan's a busy fellow, ya know. He has all those legions of demons to supervise, not to mention plenty of hapless unsaved humans to personally torment on a regular basis with a hot pitchfork to the buttocks. --- ### madrussian *2005-08-31 05:46* | [User Profile](/od/user/15) Superstitions are better left to savages. --- ### il ragno *2005-08-31 05:46* | [User Profile](/od/user/85) Jeez. I'd rather "think like a chick" than keep nagging like a fishwife! Where were you two-three years ago on this 'burning issue', Walter? Uttering nary a word. Because 'beware the mason' is now the fundie flavor of the month, and suddenly George Washington is retroactively the Dark Eminence of American history. As long as you're [I]determined [/I] to marginalize yourself into a nut wearing a REPENT THE END IS NEAR sandwich board, why don't you and Petr roll the dice and take your 'message' global, by launching MNN? --- ### madrussian *2005-08-31 05:48* | [User Profile](/od/user/15) Come on, Walter is great entertainment. The secret is to not take him seriously. His family does not. --- ### il ragno *2005-08-31 05:55* | [User Profile](/od/user/85) Beware all ye who enter here. Here there be DEMONS. [B]Famous Masons [/B] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FAMOUS MASONS- U.S. PRESIDENTS Buchanan, James - President of the U.S. Ford, Gerald R. - President of the U.S. Garfield, James A. - President of the U.S. Harding, Warren G. - President of the U.S. Jackson, Andrew - President of the U.S. Johnson, Andrew - President of the U.S. McKinley, William - President of the U.S. Monroe, James - President of the U.S. Polk, James Knox - President of the U.S. Roosevelt, Franklin D. - President of the U.S. Roosevelt, Theodore - President of the U.S. Taft, William Howard - President of the U.S. Truman, Harry S. - President of the U.S. Washington, George - President of US, 1st -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FAMOUS MASONS- SUPREME COURT JUSTICES Black, Hugo L. - Supreme Court Justice Blair, Jr., John - Supreme Court Justice Blatchford, Samuel - Supreme Court Justice Baldwin, Henry - Supreme Court Justice Burton, Harold H. - Supreme Court Justice Byrnes, James F. - Supreme Court Justice Catton, John - Supreme Court Justice Clark, Thomas C. - Supreme Court Justice Clarke, John H. - Supreme Court Justice Cushing, William - Supreme Court Justice Devanter, Willis Van - Supreme Court Justice Douglas, William O. - Supreme Court Justice Ellsworth, Oliver - Supreme Court Justice Field, Stephen J. - Supreme Court Justice Harlan, John M. - Supreme Court Justice Jackson, Robert H. - Supreme Court Justice Lamar, Joseph E. - Supreme Court Justice Marshall, John - Chief Justice U.S. Supreme Court 1801 - 1835 Marshall, Thurgood - Supreme Court Justice Mathews, Stanley - Supreme Court Justice Minton, Sherman - Supreme Court Justice Moody, William H. - Supreme Court Justice Nelson, Samuel - Supreme Court Justice Paterson, William - Supreme Court Justice Pitney, Mahlon - Supreme Court Justice Reed, Stanley F. - Supreme Court Justice Rutledge, Wiley B. - Supreme Court Justice Stewart, Potter - Supreme Court Justice Swayne, Noah H. - Supreme Court Justice Todd, Thomas - Supreme Court Justice Trimble, Robert - Supreme Court Justice Vinson, Frederick M. - Supreme Court Justice Warren, Earl - Supreme Court Justice Woodbury, Levi - Supreme Court Justice Woods, William B. - Supreme Court Justice -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FAMOUS MASONS- MILITARY Arnold, General Henry "Hap" - Commander of the Army Air Force Bradley, Omar N. - Military leader Byrd, Admiral Richard E. - Flew over North Pole Doolittle, General James - Famous Air Force Pilot Jones, John Paul - First Admiral of the U.S. Navy Lafayette, Marquis de - Supporter of American Freedom Lindbergh, Charles - Aviator MacArthur, General Douglas - Commander of Armed Forces in Philillines Marshall, George - General of the Armies McClellan, General George B. - Army of the Potomac, Presidential candidate against Abe Lincoln, faced General Robert E. Lee at the battle of Antietam and twice Governor of New Jersey. Montgomery, Richard Major General - Fist General Officer of the Continental Army killed in the Battle for Quebec on Dec 31, 1775. Murphy, Audie - Most decorated soldier of WW11. Peary, Robert E. - First man to reach the North Pole (1909) Pershing, John Joseph - Decorated American Soldier Rickenbacker, Eddie - Great American Air Force Ace Tirpitz, Alfred Von - German Naval officer responsible for submarine warfare -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FAMOUS MASONS- SPORTS Cobb, Ty - An original member of the Baseball Hall of Fame Combs, Earle Bryan - Baseball Hall of Fame Dempsey, Jack - Sports Hornsby, Rogers - A member of the Baseball Hall of Fame Naismith, James - Inventor of Basketball Palmer, Arnold - Golf Pro -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FAMOUS MASONS- ACTORS/ WRITERS Autry, Gene - Actor Borgnine, Ernest - Actor Burns, Robert - The National Poet of Scotland Casanova - Italian Adventurer, writer and entertainer Clemens, Samuel L. - Mark Twain - writer Cohan, George M. - Broadway star Collodi, Carlo - Writer of Pinocchio Doyle, Sir Author Conan - Writer - Sherlock Holmes Fairbanks, Douglas - Silent film actor Fields, W.C. - Actor Gable, Clark - Actor Gibbon, Edward - Writer - Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire Godfrey, Arthur - Actor Gray, Harold Lincoln - Creator of "Little Orphan Annie Hardy, Oliver - Actor - Comedian Kipling, Rudyard - Writer Lincoln, Elmo - First actor to play Tarzan of the Apes (1918) Mix, Tom - U.S. Marshal turned actor. Stared in over 400 western films Murphy, Audie - Most decorated American Soldier of WWII Pushkin, Aleksander - Russian Poet Rogers, Roy - American cowboy and screen star Rogers, Will - Actor Scott, Sir Walter - Writer Sellers, Peter - Actor Shakespeare, William - Writer Swift, Jonathan - Wrote Gulliver's Travels Voltaire - French writer and philosopher Wallace, Lewis - Wrote "Ben Hur" Wayne, John - Actor -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FAMOUS MASONS- MUSICIANS/ENTERTAINERS Bassie, William "Count" - Orchestra leader/composer Berlin, Irving - Entertainer Clark, Roy - Country Western Star Dickens, Little Jimmy - Grand Ole Opry Star Ellington, Duke - Composer, Arranger and Stylist Jolson, Al - Fame as the first 'talkinf picture' the Jazz Singer Key, Francis Scott - Wrote U.S. National Anthem Lloyd, Harold C. - Entertainer Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus - Composer Sax, Antoine Joseph - Invented the Saxophone (1846) Sibelius, Jean - Composer (Finland) Skelton, Red - Entertainer Smith, John Stafford - Wrote the music that became the US National Anthem. Sousa, John Philip - Led the U.S. Marine Band from 1880 - 1892 Stratton, Charles "Tom Thumb" - Entertainer Tillis, Mel - Country Singer Whiteman, Paul - "King of Jazz" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FAMOUS MASONS- GOVERNMENT LEADERS Abbott, Sir John J.C. - Prime Minister of Canada 1891-92 Bennett, Viscount R.B. - Prime Minister of Canada 1930-35 Borden, Sir Robert L. - Prime Minister of Canada 1911-1920 Bowell, Sir Mackenzie - Prime Minister of Canada 1894-96 Churchill, Winston - British Leader Diefenbaker, John G. - Prime Minister of Canada 1957-63 Edward VII - King of England Edward VIII - King of England who abdicated the throne in less than 1 year George VI - King of England during W.W. II MacDonald, Sir John A. - Prime Minister of Canada 1867-73 & 1878-91 Nunn, Sam - U.S. Senator Wallace, Governor George C. - Presidential Candidate who was nearly assasinated -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FAMOUS MASONS- ASTRONAUTS Aldrin, Edwin E. - Astronaut Armstrong, Neil - Astronaut Glenn, John H. - First American to orbit the earth in a space craft Grissom, Virgil - Astronaut -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FAMOUS MASONS- EARLY AMERICAN PIONEERS Austin, Stephen F. - Father of Texas Bowie, James - Alamo Brant, Joseph - Chief of the Mohawks 1742 - 1807 Burnett, David G. - 1st President of the Republic of Texas Carson, Christopher "Kit" - Frontiersman, scout and explorer Clark, William - Explorer Cody, "Buffalo Bill" William - Indian fighter, Wild West Show Colt, Samuel - Firearms inventor Crockett, David - American Frontiersman and Alamo fame Henry, Patrick - Patriot Houston, Sam - 2nd&4th President of the Republic of Texas Jones, Anson - 5th President of the Republic of Texas Lamar, Mirabeau B. - 3rd President of the Republic of Texas Lewis, Meriwether - Explorer Livingston, Robert - Co-Negotiator for purchase of Louisiana Territory Revere, Paul - Famous American Travis, Colonel William B. - Alamo -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FAMOUS MASONS- SIGNERS OF DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE SIGNERS OF CONSTITUTION OF THE U.S. Franklin, Benjamin - 1 of 13 Masonic signers of Constitution of the U.S. Hancock, John - 1of 9 Masonic signers of Declaration of Independence -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- OTHER FAMOUS MASONS Balfour, Lloyd - Jewelry Bartholdi, Frederic A. - Designed the Statue of Liberty Baylor, Robert E. B. - Founder Baylor University Beard, Daniel Carter - Founder Boy Scouts Bell, Lawrence - Bell Aircraft Corp. Borglum, Gutzon & Lincoln - Father and Son who carved Mt. Rushmore BuBois, W.E.B. - Educator/scholar Calvo, Father Francisco - Catholic Priest who started Freemasonry in Costa Rica 1865 Chrysler, Walter P. - Automotive fame Citroen, Andre - French Engineer and motor car manufacturer Desaguliers, John Theophilus - Inventor of the planetarium Dow, William H. - Dow Chemical Co. Drake, Edwin L - American Pioneer of the Oil industry Dunant, Jean Henri - Founder of the Red Cross Ervin Jr, Samual J. - Headed "Watergate" committee Faber, Eberhard - Head of the famous Eberhard Fabor Pencil Company Fisher, Geoffrey - Archbishop of Canterbury 1945 - 1961 Fitch, John - Inventor of the Steamboat Fleming, Sir Alexander - Invented Penicillin Ford, Henry - Pioneer Automobile Manufacturer Gatling, Richard J. - Built the "Gatling Gun" Gilbert, Sir William S. - Was the librettis for "Pirates of Penzance" Gillett, King C. - Gillett Razor Co. "Grock - Swiss Circus Clown Guillotin, Joseph Ignace - Inventor of the "Guillotin" Hedges, Cornelius - "Father" of Yellowstone National Park Henson, Josiah - Inspired the novel "Uncle Tom's Cabin" Hilton, Charles C. - American Hotelier Hoban, James - Architect for the U.S. Captial Hoe, Richard M. - Invented the rotory press, revolutinizing newspaper printing Hoover, J. Edgar - Director of FBI Houdini, Harry - Magician Jenner, Edward - Inventor - Vaccination Jones, Melvin - One of the founders of the Lions International Lake, Simon - Built first submarine successfull in open sea. Land, Frank S. - Founder Order of DeMolay Lipton, Sir Thomas - Tea Marshall, James W. - Discovered Gold at Sutter's Mill California 1848 Mayer, Louis B. - Film producer who merged to form Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer (MGM) Mayo, Dr. William and Charles - Began Mayo Clinic Maytag, Fredrick - Maytag Menninger, Karl A. - Psychiatrist famous for treating mental illness Michelson, Albert Abraham - Successfully measured the speed of light in 1882 Montgolfier, Jacques Etienne - Co-developer of the first practical hot-air balloon New, Harry S. - Postmaster General who established Airmail Newton, Joseph Fort - Christian Minister Olds, Ransom E. - American automobile pioneer Otis, James - Famous for "Taxations without Representation is Tyranny" Papst, Charles F. - Coined the term "Athletes Foot" Peale, Norman Vincent - Founder of "Guidepost" Penny, James C. - Retailer Poinsett, Joel R. - U.S. Minister to Mexico who developed the flower: Poinsettia Pullman, George - Built first sleeping car on train. Ringling Brothers - All 7 brothers and their father were Masons. Salten, Felix - Creator of Bambi Sarnoff, David - Father of T.V. Schoonover, George - Founder of "The Builder" Stanford, Leland - Drove the gold spike linking the intercontinetal railroad Stanford, Leland - Railroads & Stanford University Still, Andrew T. - American Physician who devised treatment of Osteopathy Teets, John W. - Chairman and Presiden of Dial Corporation Thomas, Dave - Founder of Wendys Restaurant Thomas, Lowell - Brought Lawrence of Arabia to public notice Wadlow, Robert Pershing - Tallest human on record being almost 9 feet tall Warner, Jack - Warner Brothers Fame Webb, Matthew - First man to swim the English Channel (1875) Wyler, William - Director of "Ben Hur" Zanuck, Darryl F. - Co-founder of 20th Century Productions in 1933 Ziegfeld, Florenz - His Ziegfeld's Follies began in 1907 --- ### madrussian *2005-08-31 06:08* | [User Profile](/od/user/15) The Muslim Taliban will agree with Walter: dey be white debbils. --- ### albion *2005-08-31 06:11* | [User Profile](/od/user/1350) [img]http://www.radioliberty.com/bmaosi.jpg[/img] [url="http://www.radioliberty.com/bmaosi.htm"]http://www.radioliberty.com/bmaosi.htm[/url] :punk: Discover the most fascinating and in-depth meanings behind the symbols used by the Masons, occultists, witches, New Agers, Satanists, and others. Dr. Burns uncovers the hidden meanings behind the symbols that we see around us every day. In this well-documented book you will see hundreds of illustrations along with their explanations. You will find many organizational logos, hand signals, tarot cards, zodiac signs, talismans, amulets, and humanist symbols, as well as the meaning of the peace symbol, hexagram, pentagram, yin/yang, circle, all-seeing-eye, caduceus, oroborus, ankh, triskele, and the triangle. Also revealed in this book are numerous Masonic and Eastern Star symbols such as the clasped hands, point within a circle, broken column, gavel, obelisk, pomegranate, and the cornucopia. softcover, 543 pages. ($21.95) --- ### Texas Dissident *2005-08-31 07:13* | [User Profile](/od/user/1) **"There are two equal and opposite errors into which our race can fall about the devils. One is to disbelieve in their existence. The other is to believe, and to feel an excessive and unhealthy interest in them. They themselves are equally pleased by both errors and hail a materialist or a magician with the same delight." - C.S. Lewis** --- ### RowdyRoddyPiper *2005-08-31 07:18* | [User Profile](/od/user/1335) Freemasonry: Dungeons & Dragons for middle-aged tax accountants. --- ### Petr *2005-08-31 07:55* | [User Profile](/od/user/1012) Freemasonry is only a part of the elitist occult underground (Skull & Bones, anyone?) that is very much responsible for the current sad state of the West. All your banal quips about "Dungeons & Dragons" etc. are not going to change that fact. (Hey Ragno, sure you are well aware that your horrendous ideas about PNAC would definitely be considered "tin-foil hat stuff" by the mainstream?) Petr --- ### Texas Dissident *2005-08-31 07:55* | [User Profile](/od/user/1) A solid outline and reference: **[url=http://www.equip.org/free/DM166.htm]THE MASONIC LODGE AND THE CHRISTIAN CONSCIENCE[/url]** by John Weldon > In its section on the position of other Christian denominations relative to Masonry, even the Baptist Study documents that Masonry has been rejected by the Roman Catholic church, Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, the Presbyterian Church in America, the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland, the Greek Orthodox Church, the Church of the Nazarene, the Church of the Brethren, the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, the Assemblies of God, the Reformed Presbyterian Church, "and other Christian denominations have also taken positions against Freemasonry, or against secret societies without mentioning Freemasonry." Look at the bright side. Maybe we finally found something our Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant brethren can agree on. :) --- ### il ragno *2005-08-31 08:10* | [User Profile](/od/user/85) I know that Rudyard Kipling was one of the most skilled, and effective, propagandists for the virtues of the masonic brotherhood - and yet you dismissed him as one of the 'good masons', Petr, and not worthy of censure. I guess the dividing line between good and evil masons is whether or not [I]you [/I] like them. And by the way - in re: your moronic parallel between PNAC and the menace of fluoridated freemasonry - here is Exhibit A why people don't pay attention to you (and why you keep biting their ankles like a rabid poodle). [I]One [/I] is an easily-retrieved public document directly affecting American foreign policy in the here and now; the [I]other [/I] is crackpot, antiquarian mumbo-jumbo seized upon by fundamentalist pests to prove John Philip Sousa murdered Edgar Allan Poe on orders from James Buchanan, and that we all owe Sly Stallone our eternal gratitude for saying so. Imagine what your crusade du jour might be if you *hadn't* seized on the Masonic Temple; you'd be admonishing people on the street for wearing excessively-decorative shirt buttons on the Lord's day. Take a look at my new Walter Yannis signature and you'll get a good idea of just what the Christian Taliban is selling us, and why no one's forming a line to buy any. --- ### Walter Yannis *2005-08-31 08:15* | [User Profile](/od/user/57) [QUOTE][il ragno]Jeez. I'd rather "think like a chick" than keep nagging like a fishwife![/QUOTE] You'll make someone a great wife someday, Ragman. [QUOTE]Where were you two-three years ago on this 'burning issue', Walter? Uttering nary a word. Because 'beware the mason' is now the fundie flavor of the month, and suddenly George Washington is retroactively the Dark Eminence of American history.[/QUOTE] Slander. I've consistently spoken against Freemasonry. [QUOTE]As long as you're [I]determined [/I] to marginalize yourself into a nut wearing a REPENT THE END IS NEAR sandwich board, why don't you and Petr roll the dice and take your 'message' global, by launching MNN?[/QUOTE] That's a total mischaracterization of what I've said here. I've shown that Freemasonry is Luciferian. There's no doubt about that. It goes without saying that anything Luciferian is fundmentally at odds with Christianity. The conclusion is inescapable: Freemasonry and orthodox Christianity cannot be reconciled. This is the only point I'm tryng to make. You and others here, including my good friend Faust, are attempting to deny the truth of my assertion through the application of "female logic" (oxymoron!); i.e. if an assertion of fact is proved true, but you find the asserted fact undesirable for whatever reason, then the fact cannot be true. That's the argument you're making here. I've shown that Freemasonry is Luciferian and thus profoundly anti-Christian. You then reply in effect that this conclusion would be terrible, since it would implicate America's most cherished founders in an anti-Christ movement which would be (gasp!) DEVISIVE, and so you take the next leap in illogic and assert that it simply can't be true that Freemasonry is Luciferian and irreconcialable with Christianity. We all need to avoid such forays into such chick ditziness and look the facts - however unpleasant - in the eye. Many of our founders were infected with anit-Christian ideas. They received them from Freemasonry. Freemasonry is in essence the same religion as Orthodox Judaism post 16th century with the final victory of Kabbalah over other Jewish doctrines. This made the French Freemasons, for example, co-religionists with the Jews of the day. This is why French Freemasons worked so closely with Jews in their lodges. This is why the French Revolution was so virulently anti-Christ. My Russian friends call it "zhido-masonstvo." Our enemy is this two headed beast of an alliance between Jewish kabbalah and gentile Masonic gnosticism. The French Revolution lies at the heart of our present difficulties. The ideals of the Revolution are inimical to all we paleoconservatives hold dear. We are Burkeans, after all. The French Revolution is really the dividing line between liberal and conservative to this day. Do you agree with Burke or Voltaire? Like I said, I stand with Burke against the Jacobins and indeed the entire Revolutionary milieu. We cannot address the horrible damage the French Revolution wreaked upon our civilization until we address its gnostic/kabbalistic/masonic religious roots. We cannot address this enemy religion in our own country until we've become willing to call a spade a spade. We can't get at this thing until we've resolved to adhere to principle instead of bowing to personality, no matter how great those personalities may be. All the men listed above were members of a Luciferian movement. That's just the way that is. Deal with it, friends. Manfully look it in the eye. Don't take the cheap chick way out Ragman is offering. --- ### Texas Dissident *2005-08-31 08:18* | [User Profile](/od/user/1) [QUOTE=Walter Yannis]Our enemy is this two headed beast of an alliance between Jewish kabbalah and gentile Masonic gnosticism.[/QUOTE] Bingo. --- ### il ragno *2005-08-31 08:25* | [User Profile](/od/user/85) When you can convince me you *don't* wear your wife's frilliest silk chemise to bed (I know - it's purely for comfort reasons), I might rise to your never-ending girly-man baiting, Walter. Until then, why not shift to Topic B - how individuality must be shunned like leprosy, and the best way for we sheep to do that is to let someone like *you* do the thinking for us. By the way...you've got a search function. Suppose you dig up one of those years-old anti-mason screeds you've purportedly consistently graced us with? --- ### Esoterist *2005-08-31 08:28* | [User Profile](/od/user/1359) People should learn to discriminate. Pre-modern freemasonry was originally similar to a bourgeois guild with its parochial trade secrets and mutual self-help, popularizing certain elements of Aryo-Hermetic philosophy. Even as late as the American Revolution, some decentralized freemasonic structures remained relatively uncompromised. Thusly George Washington: **"I** have heard much of the nefarious, and dangerous plan, and doctrines of the Illuminati, but never saw the Book until you were pleased to send it to me. ... I believe notwithstanding, that none of the Lodges in this Country are contaminated with the principles ascribed to the Society of the Illuminati. With respect I am &c." [url="http://lcweb2.loc.gov/ammem/gwhtml/gwhome.html"]http://lcweb2.loc.gov/ammem/gwhtml/gwhome.html[/url] Modern freemasonry, however, as all intelligent observers know, has gradually rotted from within through Cabalistic and Sabbatian/Frankist infiltration and influence: [url="http://www.antiqillum.com/texts/tl/"]http://www.antiqillum.com/texts/tl/[/url] Judaism has lately utilized freemasonry as a means to push its messianic Noahide laws and World Federalist agenda on our decadent, mindwashed leadership. Chabad Lubavitch explains the children of Noah are gentiles: [url="http://www.chabad.org/gopher/outlook/7laws/7laws.004.htm"]http://www.chabad.org/gopher/outlook/7laws/7laws.004.htm[/url] "With respect G-d's commandments, all of humanity is divided into two general classifications - the Children of Israel and the Children of Noah. The Children of Israel are the Jews, the descendants of the Patriarch Jacob. They are commanded to fulfill the 613 commandments of the Torah. The Children of Noah are the Gentiles, comprising the seventy nations of the world. They are commanded concerning the Seven Universal Laws, also known as the Seven Laws of the Children of Noah or the Seven Noahide Laws." In *The History of Freemasonry*, High Adept and Prince of Masonry, Albert Mackey reveals the Messianic Noahide inspiration behind modern Judeo-Masonic ideology: "After NoahÃ¢â¬â¢s emergence from the Ark, he is said to have promulgated seven precepts for the government of the new race of men of whom he was to be the progenitor... [1] To do justice [2] Worship God [3] Abstain from idolatry [4] Preserve chastity [5] Do not commit murder [6] Do not steal [7] Do not eat blood." "These seven obligations...are held binding on all men, inasmuch as all are descendants of Noah, and the Rabbins maintain that he who observes them, though he not be an Israelite, has a share in the future life, and it is the duty of every Jew to enforce their due observance wherever he has the power to do so." "...(A) revision of the Old Charges...contained this passage: 'A Mason is obliged by his tenure to obey the Moral Law.' In the edition of 1738, Dr. Anderson has, without authority, completed the sentence by adding the words, 'As a true Noachida. ...the only religious laws which a Freemason is required to obey are those which are contained in the code that has been attributed to Noah. This sentiment is still further expressed toward the close of the 'Old Charges' where it is said that the Mason is obliged only 'to that religion in which all men agree,' excluding therefore atheism and requiring the observance of such simple laws of morality as are enjoined in the precepts of Noah." "The influence of Noah on Masonic doctrine is to be traced to the almost universal belief of men in the events of the deluge, and a consequent establishment in many nations of a system of religion known to ethnologists as the 'Arkite Worship... Hence arose that system known to modern scholars as the 'Arkite Worship' in whose rites and mysteries, which were eventually communicated to the other ancient religions. There were always some allusions to the events of the Noahic flood - to the Ark, as the WOMB OF NATURE, to the eight persons saved in it, as the Ogdoad or sacred number - and to the renovation of the world, as symbolizing the passage from death to immortal life." [Albert Mackey, *The History Of Freemasonry*, pp. 406-9.] If any of you uninitiated gentiles don't know, "Arkite Worship" refers cryptically to the weird Cabalist doctrine that the Holy of Holies within the Jerusalem Temple is the "womb and center of creation". Thus, we see how modern Freemasonry prostitutes itself to the megalomaniacal ambitions of Jewish world theocracy, its *express* purpose being the production of subservient "true Noachides" within the host gentile populations to minimize the strain of transition from covert to overt Jewish world dictatorship. We live in an insane world, don't we? --- ### Walter Yannis *2005-08-31 09:33* | [User Profile](/od/user/57) [QUOTE=il ragno]By the way...you've got a search function. Suppose you dig up one of those years-old anti-mason screeds you've purportedly consistently graced us with?[/QUOTE] Perhaps you could show me where I failed to speak against freemasonry when the time arose. --- ### Walter Yannis *2005-08-31 09:38* | [User Profile](/od/user/57) [QUOTE=Esoterist]People should learn to discriminate. Pre-modern freemasonry was originally similar to a bourgeois guild with its parochial trade secrets and mutual self-help, popularizing certain elements of Aryo-Hermetic philosophy. [/QUOTE] Great stuff, Esoterist. Thanks for the references. I believe that kabbalistic influences were very much part of the Masonic scene by the mid-18th century at the latest. This is my understanding, although I admit I've read only a few books on the subject. It seems to me no way around reproaching our founders with contact with the occult. --- ### Petr *2005-08-31 12:48* | [User Profile](/od/user/1012) [COLOR=Indigo][FONT=Book Antiqua][B][I] - "Thus, we see how modern Freemasonry prostitutes itself to the megalomaniacal ambitions of Jewish world theocracy, its express purpose being the production of subservient "true Noachides" within the host gentile populations to minimize the strain of transition from covert to overt Jewish world dictatorship."[/I][/B][/FONT][/COLOR] I think you are underestimating Masons, Esoterist (and over-estimating Jews). The former are just as capable of double-dealing and backstabbing as the Jews are, and actually there have been some undercurrents in Freemasonry that surely would be called "anti-Semitic" these days... [url]http://freemasonrywatch.org/P2.html[/url] [COLOR=Red][FONT=Arial][SIZE=3][B]"[I]The single fact that we owe not one single truth, not one idea in philosophy or religion to the Semitic race is, of itself, ample reward for years of study, and it is a fact indisputable, if I read the Veda and Zend Avesta alright." [/I] Illustrious Albert Pike [/B] [/SIZE] [/FONT] [/COLOR] Notice that this was the same guy who [B]also[/B] said: [COLOR=Blue][B][FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]"[I]All the truely dogmatic religions have issued from the Kabbalah and return to it: everything scientific and grand in the religious dreams of the Illuminati, Jacob Boehme, Swedenborg, Saint-Martin, and others, is borrowed from Kabbalah, all the Masonic associations owe to it their secrets and their symbols[/I]." Sovereign Grand Commander Albert Pike 33ÃÂ°"[/SIZE][/FONT][/B][/COLOR] [url]http://freemasonrywatch.org/2index.html[/url] See how Masons can "play on both sides" at the same time? Such hoodwinking is their specialty. I am pretty sure that Masons have ideas of their own on the nature of the coming world dictatorship, they are [B]not[/B] just some Jew-puppets with no will of their own. You may check out this thread of mine to see how they can make Jews work for [B]them[/B]: [url]http://www.originaldissent.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19794&highlight=pike[/url] In fact, my intuition tells me that occult Gentile elites are largely using Jews as their errand boys, Jews being visible - and expendable - targets of possible public uprising and they themselves as "silent partners" - just like the Polish nobles liked to use Jews as their middlemen and collectors of taxes from oppressed peasants. Anyways, you should stop being so naive as to immediately believe everything that esoteric societies publically declare in writings such as Mackey's "[I]History of Freemasonry[/I]". Their [B]public[/B] statements are full of empty platitudes and deceitful double-entendres. Petr --- ### Walter Yannis *2005-08-31 14:02* | [User Profile](/od/user/57) [QUOTE=Petr][ I am pretty sure that Masons have ideas of their own on the nature of the coming world dictatorship, they are [B]not[/B] just some Jew-puppets with no will of their own. You may check out this thread of mine to see how they can make Jews work for [B]them[/B]:[/QUOTE] I think that's right. The Jews are certainly major partners in the New World Order, but they aren't the whole of it. The WASP Masons work with them, but there's no love lost between them. I recommend a book called "Behind the Lodge Door" which details how the judical onslaught of the past 70 years against Christianity in America was lead by Freemasons and Unitarians. Rushdoony is right. Tolerance is just a charade one plays while jockeying for position until such time as one can impose one's will on the society. As Rushdoony taught, the separation of church and state as such is impossible. The human brain is constructed in such a way that groups are governed by ruling religions. Any change of law signals an extant change in religion. It cannot be otherwise. The Freemasons and Unitarians advanced their anti-Christian agenda under the banners of "tolerance" and "separation of church and state." It's religious intolerance in the name of tolerance, and we fall for it hook, line and sinker every time. --- ### albion *2005-08-31 14:11* | [User Profile](/od/user/1350) [img]http://www.radioliberty.com/bbld.jpg[/img] **"Behind the Lodge Door"** By Paul A. Fisher. Behind the Lodge Door is at once an in-depth and probing analysis of Masonic activity in four principle areas of influence, especially as they relate to the United States, but it os also an overview of the Masonic fraternity in general that will enlighten and inform the reader and make a perusal of this book most worthwhile. Those four areas are 1) the religious education issue in the U.S., 2) opposition to the Catholic Church, 3) the molding and directing of national political and social policy, and 4) how the Masons attract their members. softcover, 362 pages. ($20.95) [url="http://www.radioliberty.com/bbld.htm"]http://www.radioliberty.com/bbld.htm[/url] --- ### Walter Yannis *2005-08-31 14:25* | [User Profile](/od/user/57) Thanks, Albion. --- ### G.Larson *2005-08-31 14:53* | [User Profile](/od/user/1360) [QUOTE=Walter Yannis]You admit, then, that Masons worship Lucifer. Nope. [Quote=Walter Yannis]Your father was Mason, and thus by your own admission it follows that he was a Luciferian. Nope and no, my father was a christian. [quote=Walter Yannis] Do you also consider yourself to be a Luciferian? Iam what Iam. --- ### Walter Yannis *2005-08-31 16:38* | [User Profile](/od/user/57) [QUOTE]Originally Posted by Walter Yannis You admit, then, that Masons worship Lucifer.[QUOTE][G.Larson]Nope.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE] You wrote [QUOTE]. . . [I]Mason types believe in Lucifer as a type of Cosmic force or Archtype force/principal[/I][/QUOTE] What was that, a firm denial? You're looking me right in the eye here and lying through your teeth. And you know it. I call the Christians here to witness of this fact. This ability to lie in such a boldfaced manner is emblematic of Freemasons. Freemasonry is a religion, but it isn't a religion. Freemansony is compatible with Christianity, but Freemasonry is Luciferian. And calling attention to these contradictions is bad form. It's just isn't done in polite company. It's imperative to keep the peace that all nod and chuckle warmly at our nice neighbors who claim to be our friends - even our fellow Christians - to our faces, even as they advance a Luciferian religion behind the Lodge door. [QUOTE][QUOTE]Originally Posted by Walter Yannis Do you also consider yourself to be a Luciferian? [/QUOTE] Iam what Iam.[/QUOTE] And as I've just shown, you are a liar. Which is true to form for a Luciferian. --- ### il ragno *2005-08-31 16:57* | [User Profile](/od/user/85) Chase 'em off, Walter - chase 'em [I]all [/I] off. Attaboy, kid. It'll be easier to plan how you'll conquer and then run the world when there's just four or five of you left here, after all. --- ### Sertorius *2005-08-31 17:56* | [User Profile](/od/user/26) Il Ragno has a damn good point. [QUOTE]So help me, this 'Masons are Satanic' nonsense has got to be the most counterproductive of all the Petr/Yannis 'initiatives'. Now it's "the Founding Fathers were witches who held black masses and danced 'round an upside down cross".[/QUOTE] Sorry guys, I believe this statement has validity. Assuming what you have posted is true, we only wind up losing members over esoteric things like this when there are targets out there that are in plain sight. Most folks reading some of the things posted on this thread are going to have their eyes glaze over and discount everything else posted here whether it be PNAC or immigration that readily be shown to be dangerous as crackpottery. --- ### Petr *2005-08-31 18:00* | [User Profile](/od/user/1012) [COLOR=Red][I][B][FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial] - Ã¢â¬ÂNo prob for you, Petr. Just drop to your knees and ask your personal friend Jesus to save you from the incoming warheads with a force-field of faith. That's plenty rational.Ã¢â¬Â[/FONT][/FONT][/B][/I][/COLOR] Veritably Linderian asshole response (I have corresponded with him and I know how he likes to answer to serious points with irrelevant and snarky [I]ad hominems[/I]). You have a lot of nerve to pretend to be a beacon of sanity with this atavistic Israel-hatred of yours, even at the potential cost of millions of European lives. [COLOR=Red][FONT=Arial][B][I] - Ã¢â¬ÂIsrael must be destroyed, both to dispel the specter of their eventually destroying Europe, as well as putting an end to the nuclear blackmail they threaten their 'friends' with.Ã¢â¬Â [/I] [/B] [/FONT] [/COLOR] Armchair strategist. [COLOR=Red][FONT=Arial][B][I] - Ã¢â¬ÂI never said "go in with fanfare and cannons and drop your payload on a live satellite hookup"[/I][/B][/FONT][/COLOR] You just talked about [I]a nuke-Israel editorial in New York Times[/I], dumbo. HowÃ¢â¬â¢s that for an advance warning? Besides, your scenario is childish - to put it mildly - do you think that ANYONE could just Ã¢â¬Âsneak upÃ¢â¬Â on Israelis like that? They are on perpetual alert even now. [FONT=Arial][COLOR=Red][B][I] - Ã¢â¬Â....obviously any nullifying of the Israeli threat will require stealth and careful planning and coordination: thinking Jewish, in other words.Ã¢â¬Â[/I][/B][/COLOR][/FONT] Thus spake the war nerd. Actually Walter is right, eliminating diaspora JewryÃ¢â¬â¢s influence is much more important than annihilating Israel. [COLOR=Red][FONT=Arial][B][I] - Ã¢â¬ÂAt least I see Isreal and recognize a dire threat to humanityÃ¢â¬Â¦Ã¢â¬Â[/I][/B][/FONT][/COLOR] Actually you are blowing the importance of Israel way out of proportion, more befitting for some Israel-obsessed dispensationalist kook rather than a geopolitical expert you pretend to be. . [FONT=Arial][COLOR=Red][B][I] - Ã¢â¬Âyou're running around Elks and Moose lodges looking for telltale smears of brimstone behind the podium. Who's irrational now?Ã¢â¬Â[/I][/B][/COLOR][/FONT] You, for you are debating against strawmen of your own creation and not showing any appreciation for our real viewpoints. I have made it clear that grassroots Masonic lodges are very irrelevant to our case. [FONT=Arial][COLOR=Red][B][I] - Ã¢â¬ÂI know that Rudyard Kipling was one of the most skilled, and effective, propagandists for the virtues of the masonic brotherhood - and yet you dismissed him as one of the 'good masons', Petr, and not worthy of censure. I guess the dividing line between good and evil masons is whether or not you like them.Ã¢â¬Â[/I][/B][/COLOR][/FONT] You are just blathering irrelevancies. Kipling was not a high-degree Mason, his literary influence notwithstanding. [FONT=Arial][COLOR=Red][B][I] - Ã¢â¬ÂOne is an easily-retrieved public document directly affecting American foreign policy in the here and now; the other is crackpot, antiquarian mumbo-jumbo seized upon by fundamentalist pests to prove John Philip Sousa murdered Edgar Allan Poe on orders from James Buchanan, and that we all owe Sly Stallone our eternal gratitude for saying so. Imagine what your crusade du jour might be if you hadn't seized on the Masonic Temple; you'd be admonishing people on the street for wearing excessively-decorative shirt buttons on the Lord's day.Ã¢â¬Â[/I][/B][/COLOR][/FONT] Blahbity bloo blah blah. Tired cartoonish misrepresentation. And this is how mainstream would respond to your PNAC theories: [url]http://dummiefunnies.blogspot.com/2005/08/dummie-funnies-08-08-05-why-arent.html[/url] [COLOR=Red][FONT=Arial][B][I] - Ã¢â¬ÂTake a look at my new Walter Yannis signature and you'll get a good idea of just what the Christian Taliban is selling us, and why no one's forming a line to buy any.Ã¢â¬Â[/I][/B][/FONT][/COLOR] Spare us from your precious marketing lessons, o smarmy one. Petr --- ### il ragno *2005-08-31 18:37* | [User Profile](/od/user/85) [QUOTE]I figure he'd materialize in a flourish of sulphur, check his palm pilot a moment, and inform me that my soul has been scheduled for delivery to the Lake of Fire since 1978. But he'd be happy to throw me a two-longshot trifecta at Belmont Park if I could somehow get a nuke-Israel op-ed published in the New York Times.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]Ho ho. You sure seem to have a fixation on nuking Israel - and are yet posing as some sort of paragon of rationality. Of course the prospect of Israel's nuclear counter-attack on European cities wouldn't bother you [/QUOTE] See that [I]top quote[/I], O 33rd-degree master of subtle Finnish humor? That was what's known as [U]a humorous comment[/U]. Now look at your hysterical, [I]burn-the-witch! [/I] response. Man, that is [I]some [/I] subtle humor you Finns specialize in. One might even mistake it for utter humorlessness. [QUOTE]Veritably Linderian asshole response (I have corresponded with him and I know how he likes to answer to serious points with irrelevant and snarky ad hominems). [/QUOTE] "Ad-hominem"? You mean like [I]invoking Alex Linder's name [/I] in every response you direct at [I]me[/I]? [QUOTE]Armchair strategist.[/QUOTE] Well, as [I]you're[/I] an armchair theologist, armchair historian, armchair sociologist, armchair Inquisition magistrate etc, I'm about three or four back in the loss column. [QUOTE]Actually you are blowing the importance of Israel way out of proportion, more befitting for some Israel-obsessed dispensationalist kook rather than a geopolitical expert you pretend to be.[/QUOTE] More smoke exiting out of your ass. I've never pretended to be a 'geopolitical expert'...as a matter of fact, I usually preface my nuke-Israel comments with [I]"I may be crazy, but-"[/I] (look it up!). Considering your [I]own [/I] unimpeachable sources tend to be mimeographed pamphlets by Michael Hoffman, and the incontrovertible 'facts' that a man rose from the dead and dinosaurs rode on the Ark, you might want to consider a similar disclaimer. [QUOTE]Spare us from your precious marketing lessons, o smarmy one. [/QUOTE] Anytime you want to take a head count of people ready to sign up for your Stalin-styled Christian theocracy - run by one crank who puts away his Papal mitre whenever he hears his wife coming up the stairs, and another who couldn't even get a date if he worked the Suicide Hotline in Helsinki every Saturday night - I'll happily provide the notary public. --- ### Petr *2005-08-31 18:51* | [User Profile](/od/user/1012) [COLOR=DarkRed][B][I] - "See that top quote, O 33rd-degree master of subtle Finnish humor? That was what's known as a humorous comment." [/I] [/B] [/COLOR] I decided to take some artistic liberty myself to caricature you. The main point remains, you are an armchair strategist [I]par excellence [/I] if you think you can sneak up on Israel. You seem to be taking your tactics from [I]Turner Diaries[/I]. And I am not an "armchair theologist," or historian. I basically know my trade and I'm constantly getting even better at it. Petr --- ### Esoterist *2005-08-31 19:14* | [User Profile](/od/user/1359) I understand the historical role of Jews as middlemen serving degenerated Western aristocracies. I also understand the relationship between Judaism and corrupt Anglo-Saxondom is not always top-down. But if metaphysical Judaism is not the *dominant* influence in modern Masonry, if a real *spiritual Judaization* is not aimed at, why would so much of Masonic symbolism and practice derive from Judaic, Talmudic, Cabalistic, and Levantine sources? Why the emphasis on the Jewish-instituted Noahide laws? Why is the symbolism of the Temple of Soloman so central in Masonry? The legend of Hiram is of Jewish-Talmudic origin; all the Masonic passwords (Tubalcain, Shibboleth, Giblim, Jachin, and Boaz, etc.) are Jewish. Modern Anglo-Saxon Masonry was founded by a Jew - Elias Ashmole. Masons even use the ancient Hebrew calendar and dating system! Does all this support the thesis that Jews are the instruments of the forces of chaos? The ends Masons and Jews work toward present a case of "elective affinities" ***at least*** - the subversive and anti-hierarchical 'humanitarianism' of our unfettered merchant-caste inevitably teams up with international Jewry in celebrating demoliberal internationalism. The Anglo-Saxon tinker-aristocracy of Britain and America has succumbed to a weird ideological synthesis of Crowleyian nihilism and occultic Zionism. The demented goal of Masonic Anglo-Israelite Zionism is to establish globalist federalism and rebuild the third Temple of Soloman to initiate the messianic end times (Yes, influential organizations with such an agenda DO EXIST and are not a product of febrile kookery: see the Alliance Israelite Universale, the *Quatuor Coronati* lodge, the Palestine Exploration Fund, the Biblical Archaeology Society, Christian Zionists, etc.). The point is, even if certain pseudo-aristocratic Anglo-Saxons (e.g. Rothschild-supported mediocrities like Lord Northampton and the Duke of Kent) constitute a most powerful element within the 'conspirator's hierarchy' (a certain German philosopher was known to criticize the "base and plebeian materialism" of the English soul), their psyches have already been denaturalized to such an extent that renders them, for all practical purposes, members of the 'Jewish race of the spirit' and Judaism, in the most important realm, the metaphysical realm, stands as conqueror. --- ### Petr *2005-08-31 19:25* | [User Profile](/od/user/1012) [FONT=Georgia][COLOR=DarkRed][I][B] - "Modern Anglo-Saxon Masonry was founded by a Jew - Elias Ashmole."[/B][/I][/COLOR][/FONT] Wrong, Elias Ashmole was not Jewish. You should do your sourcework better. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elias_Ashmole[/url] [COLOR=DarkRed][FONT=Georgia][B][I] - "(a certain German philosopher was known to criticize the "base and plebeian materialism" of the English soul)"[/I][/B][/FONT][/COLOR] It was Nietzsche, and this song-and-dance about "English materialism" was basically just a sour-grapes slur made up by jealous continentals who were left behind in the economic competition against England. Petr --- ### Quantrill *2005-08-31 19:32* | [User Profile](/od/user/1098) [QUOTE=Petr] [color=DarkRed][font=Georgia]*** - "(a certain German philosopher was known to criticize the "base and plebeian materialism" of the English soul)"***[/font][/color] It was Nietzsche, and this song-and-dance about "English materialism" was basically just a sour-grapes slur made up by jealous continentals who were left behind in economic competition against England.[/QUOTE] I disagree. The English, and certainly the Americans, are more materialistic than the Spaniards, French, or Italians. --- ### Petr *2005-08-31 19:38* | [User Profile](/od/user/1012) You seem to have a romanticized idea of "Old Europe." It caught up with Anglo-Saxon materialism long time ago. How do you define "materialism," anyways? Americans are generally more religious than Western Europeans. Also, why is it that just the English contribution to Masonry is emphasized? Catholic, Romance countries like France and Italy were and are swarming with influential Masons - Berlusconi is one of them. Petr --- ### Texas Dissident *2005-08-31 19:44* | [User Profile](/od/user/1) [QUOTE=Quantrill]I disagree. The English, and certainly the Americans, are more materialistic than the Spaniards, French, or Italians.[/QUOTE] I'm not sure 'materialistic' is the proper adjective. 'Professional' or even 'industrious' works much better to my mind. Anybody who has worked with Spaniards or Italians knows what I'm talking about. The French are a small step above. --- ### Quantrill *2005-08-31 19:55* | [User Profile](/od/user/1098) [QUOTE=Texas Dissident]I'm not sure 'materialistic' is the proper adjective. 'Professional' or even 'industrious' works much better to my mind. Anybody who has worked with Spaniards or Italians knows what I'm talking about. The French are a small step above.[/QUOTE] It depends on your point of view, I suppose. The American idea of the good life is driving home from your 80-hour work week to your giant house in a fancy car. The Continental idea of the good life is 5 weeks of vacation a year, a siesta in the middle of the work day, and a relaxed pace of life. Perhaps Petr is right, and Old Europe has managed to 'catch up' to the Americans, but I hope not. As a Southerner, my sympathy lies with a slower pace of life, rather than with the fast-paced, dollar-denominated, Yankee lifestyle. --- ### il ragno *2005-08-31 20:01* | [User Profile](/od/user/85) > I'm not sure 'materialistic' is the proper adjective. 'Professional' or even 'industrious' works much better to my mind. Anybody who has worked with Spaniards or Italians knows what I'm talking about. The French are a small step above. So as not to appear to be taking either personal umbrage or a personal rooting interest here, I'll let your 'Italian' slur stand. Let someone *else* correct that particular defamation. But I'll take a wild guess that you've never been out of this country, and have thus never *met* a bonafide Frenchman or Spaniard. And that any you *think* you've met have been Americans of French or Spanish descent, several generations removed...a whole other animal, whose ethnicity, by now, is at least partially subsumed by the prevailing Anglo ethos of this country. --- ### Esoterist *2005-08-31 20:05* | [User Profile](/od/user/1359) Petr, we are working with different concepts of Judaism. I subscribe to the famous Jewish philosopher Otto Weininger's superbiological, archetypal definition of Judaism. "One is not dealing with a race or a people, and even less with a legally acknowledged profession. One can define it only as a spiritual attitude, a psychic constitution, which offers an OPPORTUNITY for ALL men and which merely found its most grandiose REALIZATION in historical Jewry". Thus, biological Aryans can indeed become real Jews, as has been happening all over the Western world for centuries. Ashmole was a serious disciple of the English court-occultist John Dee, who in the second half of the sixteenth century was responsible for initiating members of the English upper classes into the secrets of the Kabbalah, and inventing the doctrine of 'British Israelite Identity' as a justification for the British Empire, influencing later Rosicrucian deviances. You don't understand the forces at work here with these people? --- ### Texas Dissident *2005-08-31 20:10* | [User Profile](/od/user/1) [QUOTE=Quantrill]It depends on your point of view, I suppose. The American idea of the good life is driving home from your 80-hour work week to your giant house in a fancy car. The Continental idea of the good life is 5 weeks of vacation a year, a siesta in the middle of the work day, and a relaxed pace of life. So is the Mexicans. Spaniards, Eye-talians and French are great people, don't get me wrong. But the bottom line is who do you call when you need something done right and on time? Speaking as a businessman, it's either the Americans, English,Germans, Swiss and maybe the Dutch. > As a Southerner, my sympathy lies with a slower pace of life, rather than with the fast-paced, dollar-denominated, Yankee lifestyle.[/QUOTE] I like to think we combine the best of both worlds. --- ### il ragno *2005-08-31 20:15* | [User Profile](/od/user/85) > It depends on your point of view, I suppose. The American idea of the good life is driving home from your 80-hour work week to your giant house in a fancy car. The Continental idea of the good life is 5 weeks of vacation a year, a siesta in the middle of the work day, and a relaxed pace of life. Perhaps Petr is right, and Old Europe has managed to 'catch up' to the Americans, but I hope not. As a Southerner, my sympathy lies with a slower pace of life, rather than with the fast-paced, dollar-denominated, Yankee lifestyle. I'm with Quantrill here, but there's no reason both can't be accomodated. What is first required, however, is racial/cultural homogeneity. --- ### Texas Dissident *2005-08-31 20:15* | [User Profile](/od/user/1) [QUOTE=il ragno]But I'll take a wild guess that you've never been out of this country, and have thus never *met* a bonafide Frenchman or Spaniard. And that any you *think* you've met have been Americans of French or Spanish descent, several generations removed...a whole other animal, whose ethnicity, by now, is at least partially subsumed by the prevailing Anglo ethos of this country.[/QUOTE] Actually, I do almost daily business with with French, Spanish, Italians and most all Europeans down into Croatia, Slovenia and Serbia and Montenegro. Again, all of them are great people. Aussies and Kiwis, too. It's no knock against them, but it can't be denied there's a great difference in work ethic between say, Germans and Spaniards. --- ### Petr *2005-08-31 20:19* | [User Profile](/od/user/1012) [FONT=Georgia][COLOR=DarkRed][B][I] - "Petr, we are working with different concepts of Judaism." [/I] [/B] [/COLOR] [/FONT] Actually we are not. I detest hyper-materialist approach myself, and I think that pseudonymous "Frank Britton" gives here a very good definition of Judaism: [COLOR=Blue][FONT=Arial][B]"To any student of Judaism, or to the Jews themselves, this phenomenon is partly explained by the fact that Judaism is neither mainly a religion, nor mainly a racial matter, nor yet is it simply a matter of nationality. [U]Rather it is all three; it is a kind of trinity[/U]. [U]Judaism is best described as a nationality built on the twin pillars of race and religion[/U]."[/B][/FONT][/COLOR] [url]http://www.thebirdman.org/Index/Others/Others-Doc-Jews/Doc-Jews-Communism/+++BOOK-BehindCommunism/BehindCommunism.htm[/url] Anyways, are you just too small person to admit that you were wrong about the ethnicity of Ashmole? Petr --- ### AntiYuppie *2005-08-31 20:32* | [User Profile](/od/user/1323) [QUOTE=Quantrill]It depends on your point of view, I suppose. The American idea of the good life is driving home from your 80-hour work week to your giant house in a fancy car. The Continental idea of the good life is 5 weeks of vacation a year, a siesta in the middle of the work day, and a relaxed pace of life. Perhaps Petr is right, and Old Europe has managed to 'catch up' to the Americans, but I hope not. As a Southerner, my sympathy lies with a slower pace of life, rather than with the fast-paced, dollar-denominated, Yankee lifestyle.[/QUOTE] Quantrill, as before I really recommend that you pick up a copy of Weber's *Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism*. I think that his explanation for the differences in attitude towards work and leisure between the Protestant North and the Catholic center/south of Europe is largely correct. One sees this divide not only between nations but within them: compare Protestant Holland with the Catholic Flemish, and French Huguenots with Catholics. The basic thesis is that Catholicism (and liturgical Christianity in general) considers wealth to be irrelevant, or even an outright barrier to one's salvation. In contrast, Calvinism sees in the acquisition (though not the enjoyment) of wealth as evidence of one's status as one of the predestined elect, and replaces sacraments and liturgy with a work ethic as evidence of devotion. I think that his explanation is largely the correct one for why the industrial revolution took root in northwestern Europe earlier and more intensely than in south, central, or Eastern Europe. Not surprisingly, it was in the antebellum South where Anglicanism ("Protestant" in name only) was prevalent that the Continental attitude towards labor and leisure took hold, while in the Puritan, Calvinist northeast the seeds of America's material and industrial culture were planted. --- ### AntiYuppie *2005-08-31 20:36* | [User Profile](/od/user/1323) [QUOTE=il ragno] Where were you two-three years ago on this 'burning issue', Walter? Uttering nary a word. Because 'beware the mason' is now the fundie flavor of the month, and suddenly George Washington is retroactively the Dark Eminence of American history.[/QUOTE] Truth is, some of this site's latest obsessions and crusades are what largely turned me off from posting. First there was (and still is) the ongoing "Earth is flat, 6000 years old, and is orbited by the sun because the mutterings of ancient Israelites say so," and now we have "Freemasons Wolfgang Mozart and George Washington worshipped Pazuzu." But I try to look on the bright side of things. Gabby has been mercifully absent. Perhaps she's changed her name to "Monica" and has volunteered to serve President Chauncey Gardiner in the capacity of an intern. --- ### Petr *2005-08-31 20:40* | [User Profile](/od/user/1012) [COLOR=Blue][FONT=Georgia][B][I] - "Truth is, some of this site's latest obsessions and crusades are what largely turned me off from posting."[/I][/B][/FONT][/COLOR] Too bad, for there's more of that on its way. You militant secularists sure have more than enough channels to broadcast your viewpoints. I am also getting tired that you guys [B]consistently [/B] caricature and misrepresent our viewpoints like this: [I]"Earth is flat, 6000 years old, and is orbited by the sun because the mutterings of ancient Israelites says so."[/I] Petr --- ### AntiYuppie *2005-08-31 20:47* | [User Profile](/od/user/1323) [QUOTE=Petr][COLOR=Blue][FONT=Georgia][B][I] - "Truth is, some of this site's latest obsessions and crusades are what largely turned me off from posting."[/I][/B][/FONT][/COLOR] Too bad, for there's more of that on its way. You militant secularists sure have more than enough channels to broadcast your viewpoints. Petr[/QUOTE] I see. Anyone who doubts that George Washington's head spun 360 degrees as he vomited pea soup on his fellow masons is now a "militant secularist." --- ### il ragno *2005-08-31 20:48* | [User Profile](/od/user/85) Is this true, Tex? Was 'let's get rid of Ponce and Texas Anarch' just a throat-clearing preceding the glorious return of the Mighty Christian Taliban? Headed back to the Vast Wasteland salad days of OD, are we? You remember...the Dark Ages that were immediately followed by **this?** > [url]http://www.originaldissent.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15960&page=1[/url] **OD Expatriates** -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You know who you are. We've had ups and downs, sure. That's all part of the game. Now listen, you might have disagreed with me on some things and may still do so, passionately, but I don't think you could ever question my integrity or went away with a feeling that I don't believe the things I espouse. I hope that's not the case, at least. All that to say that I see alot of turmoil out there in cyber-space right now and I just wanted to extend the right hand of fellowship to my brethren and welcome back any of our members who have left for what seemed like greener pastures in months and years gone by. OD is here for you. Give it a thought. No hard feelings on this side. Please come home. --- ### Petr *2005-08-31 20:55* | [User Profile](/od/user/1012) You are [B]trying to restrict our freedom of speech[/B], Ragno, with this kind of method that the totalitarian PC police also uses: every time we say something that hurts your precious secularist ears, you start howling about "Christian Taliban." Also like PC pressure groups, you are constantly giving hints that you could cut off our resources - "if you don't stop this, your forum will turn into a wasteland" etc. You are one man's anti-defamation league. Petr --- ### Quantrill *2005-08-31 20:55* | [User Profile](/od/user/1098) [QUOTE=AntiYuppie] The basic thesis is that Catholicism (and liturgical Christianity in general) considers wealth to be irrelevant, or even an outright barrier to one's salvation. In contrast, Calvinism sees in the acquisition (though not the enjoyment) of wealth as evidence of one's status as one of the predestined elect, and replaces sacraments and liturgy with a work ethic as evidence of devotion. I think that his explanation is largely the correct one for why the industrial revolution took root in northwestern Europe earlier and more intensely than in south, central, or Eastern Europe.[/QUOTE] AY, I agree with this, but I was trying to keep from hijacking this thread into the realm of Protestant/Catholic dissension. Nice summary, by the way. --- ### il ragno *2005-08-31 21:18* | [User Profile](/od/user/85) [QUOTE]You are trying to restrict our freedom of speech, Ragno, with this kind of method that the totalitarian PC police also uses: every time we say something that hurts your precious secularist ears, you start howling about "Christian Taliban." Also like PC pressure groups, you are constantly giving hints that you could cut off our resources - "if you don't stop this, your forum will turn into a wasteland" etc. You are one man's anti-defamation league.[/QUOTE] Don't make me laugh, Cotton-briefs Mather. You all but told Anti Yuppie - whose shadow you are not worthy to stand within - to get lost. Walter antagonized Mr Larson, a new member who'd committed no offense against anyone here, to a degree that went beyond the pale of even contentious argument. And now you have the nerve to snivel about my restricting YOUR 'free speech'...you, whose respect for free speech stops dead the moment you hit 'enter'. Take a look at that old message of Tex's I re-posted. I didn't write that, [B]he [/B] did, having realized the damage the first reign of the CT did to his board. But [I]you're [/I] a Professional Historian, after all....surely you knew that already. --- ### Texas Dissident *2005-08-31 21:20* | [User Profile](/od/user/1) [QUOTE=il ragno]Is this true, Tex? Was 'let's get rid of Ponce and Texas Anarch' just a throat-clearing preceding the glorious return of the Mighty Christian Taliban? Uhhh, did I miss something, IR? Ponce and TA's accounts are both fully active. We had to put the former in the cooler for a few days because of some inappropriate comments, but I don't think I've even read a post by the latter in about a year. I can't ever understand what he's talking about, but nothing's been said or done in his regard that I am aware of. So let me know what you're talking about and I'll be happy to answer any questions you have. I'm only here to serve the OD community. --- ### Angler *2005-09-01 02:29* | [User Profile](/od/user/230) I believe it was Walter rather than Tex who advocated getting rid of TexasAnarch. --- ### Sertorius *2005-09-01 02:35* | [User Profile](/od/user/26) You would be correct. --- ### Petr *2005-09-01 03:52* | [User Profile](/od/user/1012) [COLOR=DarkRed][FONT=Arial][B][I] - "You all but told Anti Yuppie - whose shadow you are not worthy to stand within - to get lost."[/I][/B][/FONT][/COLOR] Whoa, I'm so unworthy. I DID NOT TOLD HIM TO GET LOST (you just keep on twisting my words, do you!). I just told him I what I am going to keep on doing, whether it aesthetically pleases him or not. If he is able to stand it - which sure wouldn't require too thick skin - then everything's OK! [FONT=Arial][COLOR=DarkRed][B][I] - "Walter antagonized Mr Larson, a new member who'd committed no offense against anyone here, to a degree that went beyond the pale of even contentious argument."[/I][/B][/COLOR][/FONT] Well boo-hoo. I think we can do without Luciferians around here, they will always have VNN Forum to go to. Petr --- ### il ragno *2005-09-01 04:30* | [User Profile](/od/user/85) You know *what*, asshole? Right now we Americans have a full plate of Katrina to occupy our attention. A lot of us have friends and family in the region that we're worried sick about and the only purpose this thread EVER served - a distraction to take our minds off the wholesale disaster taking place down there - is at an end. *Why don't you take a hint* and shelve this topic for a week or so? Cos frankly nobody gives a shit about masons, Luciferians, or [u]you[/u] at the moment - in fact this whole stupid thread was shoved into the Members-Only gulag to (hopefully) send you a message to *give it a rest already*. Satan will still be there a week from now for you to 'expose', ok? --- ### il ragno *2005-09-01 04:36* | [User Profile](/od/user/85) My error. It *belongs* in Members-Only, but it's in History instead. Doesn't change anything. **Let it rest a while.** --- ### Sertorius *2005-09-01 04:41* | [User Profile](/od/user/26) No, it's going into "members only". I want to see the board grow. Threads like this will only scare off people. Enough. --- ### albion *2005-09-01 05:27* | [User Profile](/od/user/1350) [QUOTE=Petr] I think we can do without Luciferians around here, they will always have VNN Forum to go to.[/QUOTE]Right this way, gentlemen ... --> --> Stormfront thread on Freemasonry: [url="http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=218664"]http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=218664[/url] [img]http://www.rotten.com/library/conspiracy/freemasonry/masons_baphomet.jpg[/img] --- ### Petr *2005-09-01 05:42* | [User Profile](/od/user/1012) [COLOR=DarkRed][FONT=Arial][B][I] - "A lot of us have friends and family in the region that we're worried sick about and the only purpose this thread EVER served - a distraction to take our minds off the wholesale disaster taking place down there - is at an end."[/I][/B][/FONT][/COLOR] [B]You[/B] are not the one who decides whether this thread serves some purpose or not. Btw, quite a classy move (not to mention a total [I]non sequitur[/I]) to try to recruit Katrina victims to your side. OK, we can give this thread a rest, concluding that when you lost factual debate, you started dishing out [I]ad hominems[/I]. Petr --- ### il ragno *2005-09-01 06:49* | [User Profile](/od/user/85) > You are not the one who decides whether this thread serves some purpose or not. **Btw, quite a classy move (not to mention a total non sequitur) to try to recruit Katrina victims to your side.** What a vile, ignomineous liittle faggot you are. I *lived* down there from 1996 to 2001 (and visted constantly for another five or six years prior to that) and have many loved ones and good friends in that city....only about 1/3 to 1/2 of whom I've been able to account for; and those I can account for, I can't reach by phone or Internet. All of whom have had everything in the world they owned snatched away from them. I should *know* by now never to be shocked by the toxic level of smug judgmentalism and false piety you're capable of. I've asked this before and I ask it again: is there anyone who meets you in real life and doesn't [u]immediately[/u] want to knock your teeth out? --- ### Texas Dissident *2005-09-01 07:05* | [User Profile](/od/user/1) Why don't you just give it a rest, Rag? You're getting out of line with some of those comments. And you're not the only one with family and friends in that neck of the woods. --- ### Petr *2005-09-01 07:52* | [User Profile](/od/user/1012) Your position isn't enviable, Ragno, so I'll forgive your venom-spitting now. But what are you blathering about "smug judgmentalism"? Did I say something against the people of New Orleans somewhere? You seem be hallucinating, debating against some strawman Petr of your own imagination. Petr --- ### Sertorius *2005-09-01 13:29* | [User Profile](/od/user/26) Petr, What to T.D. wrote to I.R. above about comments equally applies to you. Enough. --- ### madrussian *2005-09-01 15:16* | [User Profile](/od/user/15) By the way, the numbers of both posters and visitors are up. A good time to crank up the Christian aytollah factor, not! --- ### Texas Dissident *2005-09-01 15:23* | [User Profile](/od/user/1) [QUOTE=madrussian]By the way, the numbers of both posters and visitors are up. A good time to crank up the Christian aytollah factor, not![/QUOTE] Nah. I'll be the bigger person and just let unprovoked direct insults like the following from AY to me go unanswered: > Truth is, some of this site's latest obsessions and crusades are what largely turned me off from posting. First there was (and still is) the ongoing "Earth is flat, 6000 years old, and is orbited by the sun because the mutterings of ancient Israelites say so,"... It's quite obvious who the intolerant bunch is and who is expected to muzzle themselves for the greater good and harmony. --- ### madrussian *2005-09-01 15:25* | [User Profile](/od/user/15) It must still hurt. Swalllow your pride, brother :smoke: --- ### Texas Dissident *2005-09-01 15:48* | [User Profile](/od/user/1) [quote=madrussian]It must still hurt. It doesn't hurt me when another reveals their personal bitterness and ignorance. There is no getting along with some of these people. I take comfort knowing I have done all I can to be conciliatory towards the bitter and vindictive anti-Christians in and among the greater so-called Nationalist Right. That and the fact that I still have my finger on the 'on/off' switch for this place keeps me looking at things here with humor and the ridiculousness of +95% of it. --- ### albion *2005-10-12 03:55* | [User Profile](/od/user/1350) **Radio Liberty** [font=Arial]Craig Heimbichner on Freemasonry, Secret Societies, and the O.T.O.[/font] [url="http://www.soundwaves2000.com/rammaker.asp?id=155a&d=10-07-05b"]http://www.soundwaves2000.com/rammaker.asp?id=155a&d=10-07-05b[/url] [img]http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0970378432.01._AA240_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg[/img] ---