← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · Quantrill
Thread ID: 19421 | Posts: 32 | Started: 2005-08-04
2005-08-04 16:22 | User Profile
I have been meaning to buy some precious metals for a while now, and the recent news about the looming softness in the housing markets has convinced me that I cannot afford to keep procrastinating. As a precious metals neophyte, I have a few questions. As far as gold goes, what would be my best bets? I have been leaning towards Krugerands, since they seem to sell for slightly less than other coins for the amount of gold they contain. What about silver? Should I go all gold, or get some silver as well? If the latter, what are the best silver coins to buy? Has anyone had any luck with online gold sellers, or do you always use a local dealer? Thanks in advance for the help.
2005-08-04 17:19 | User Profile
I would stick with the English-weight demoninated pieces: Gold American Eagles, Krugerrands, Maple Leafs, or the Australian bullion coins. Of these, the Krugerrands carry the lowest premiums, but not by a real significant amount. But I have also heard they are more widely counterfeited. The Maples and Australian Lunars are 24 karat (99.99% pure), and are thus extremely susceptible to marring.... but are more beautiful.
For all bullion, save on premiums by buying the full-ounce coins, rather than 1/10 or 1/4 or 1/2 ounce pieces.
For silver, I like the one-ounce rounds. I prefer the "generic" rounds from the reputable refiners, like Engelhard, A-Mark, Johnson Mathey, etc., but it matters not, as long as they carry the .999 silver inscription on them. Lower premiums than the US Silver Eagles, but the Eagles do look nice.
Best bang for buck in silver is of course the 90% & 40% coins... all pre-'1965 dimes, quarters and halves are 90% silver. 1965-1970 halves are 40%. Bought in bulk, these can be had for at or below spot value. Get ones with the least amount of wear as possible.
THere are are several trustworthy online vendors, but then shipping is an issue. Silver and gold are heavy. But then, buying from out-of-state means you can forgo sales tax, which you MAY (state laws differ) suffer from by your local dealer.
Without a doubt, the best way to purchase coins is to attend large coin shows, where you'll find out-of-state dealers (avoid sales tax), and at the same time obviously avoiding shipping. You see exactly what you're buying, and you can haggle a bit.
2005-08-04 17:33 | User Profile
Quantrill,
[url="http://www.the-moneychanger.com/"] Franklin Sanders' articles[/url] are informative for neophytes.
2005-08-04 18:30 | User Profile
As you know when ever gold goes up silver will always go up higher, if you intent in staying in one place in case of trouble, as I am, then the weight dosen't matter so get silver.
One oz round generic is the way to go.
Look at the ratio of silver to gold in 1972-1980 and you will know how silver will do. :thumbsup:
2005-08-04 19:18 | User Profile
Thanks for the advice. I've been having a sinking feeling that I need to get some of my savings out of dollars and into metals, so this will be helpful.
2005-08-04 20:22 | User Profile
Buy real coins:
The best price is usually available on French 20 franc pieces (which contain .1867 troy ounce of gold). The next best would be British sovereigns, containing .2354 troy ounce of gold.
Right now gold is 437.70/oz
.2354 oz is worth $103.03 .1867 oz is worth $81.71
Here is a sovereign priced under intrinsic value (though $5 shipping/insurance would put it over) with 6 hours left on the auction:
[url]http://cgi.ebay.com/1904-GOLD-KING-EDWARD-BRITISH-SOVEREIGN-AU_W0QQitemZ8323640691QQcategoryZ547QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem[/url]
Some 20-franc pieces:
[url]http://search.ebay.com/gold-20-franc_W0QQsofocusZbsQQsbrftogZ1QQfromZR10QQcatrefZC3QQsojsZ1QQsacatZ-1QQcatrefZC6QQsargnZ-1QQsaslcZ2QQsadisZ200QQfposZ75231QQftrtZ1QQftrvZ1QQfsopZ1QQfsooZ1QQcoactionZcompareQQcopagenumZ1QQcoentrypageZsearch[/url]
2005-08-05 16:11 | User Profile
[QUOTE=mwdallas] The best price is usually available on French 20 franc pieces (which contain .1867 troy ounce of gold). The next best would be British sovereigns, containing .2354 troy ounce of gold.[/QUOTE] I notice that you seem to not recommend Krugerrands. Is this because they contain so much gold (a full troy oz) that they would be unsuitable for bartering?
2005-08-05 16:26 | User Profile
Well, Krugerrands are bigger units, but more importantly I've understood them to involve a bigger premium over the value of the metal (though I may be mistaken in this regard). Also, they are more likely candidates for counterfeiting.
2005-08-05 17:12 | User Profile
[QUOTE=mwdallas]Well, Krugerrands are bigger units, but more importantly I've understood them to involve a bigger premium over the value of the metal (though I may be mistaken in this regard). Also, they are more likely candidates for counterfeiting.[/QUOTE] I had heard that they were more often counterfeited, due to their popularity, but I was under the impression that they involved a smaller premium. You can buy Krugerrands for about $7.00 over spot right now, which doesn't seem too bad for a troy ounce of gold. However, as I stated in the first post, I am a neophyte, so I am anxious to be corrected if I am mistaken.
2005-08-05 21:28 | User Profile
Krugers indeed carry the lowest premuim of the bullion coins, but only by a small margin. I think another reason for this is that they arent very attractive.... the ones at the local shop have the finish of a Lincoln penny. Anyway, as long as you're not buying in huge bulk, you can't go wrong with any of the ounce-based bullion coins.
In a fit-hits-the-shan scenario where bartering takes place, I think they'd be preferrable to the oddball Mexican, British, French, Russian etc. gold pieces.
By the way, whenever I go to the bank, I ask for any half-dollars they have on hand. I've scored a few 40% pieces this way, whereas you'll probably never find a 90% dime or quarter still in circulation.
2005-08-05 22:55 | User Profile
Think about it guys. The only ones telling you to buy gold are those who SELL GOLD. Yes gold was a buy back in 1999, but it is not now. You want to wait forever and leave yourself at the mercy of the International Bankers ? Go ahead. They own over 50 % of all the gold that is held. Period. The rest is in items such as jewelry and electronics and individuals such as yourself. The gold market is controlled, lock stock and barrel, by the same scumbags that ripped the USA off back in 1913. Gold is a sucker's bet for us small fish. To make gold real, you have to control it, and nobody here does. Face Facts.
2005-08-06 02:22 | User Profile
[QUOTE]you'll probably never find a 90% dime or quarter still in circulation[/QUOTE]I found a dime last year.
As for ED's point, there are 4 billion ounces of gold above ground. As he says, half is owned by central banks, but it makes sense to buy a little -- four or five ounces -- as insurance in case there is a collapse and silver & gold return as the media of exchange.
2005-08-06 11:55 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Exelsis_Deo]Think about it guys. The only ones telling you to buy gold are those who SELL GOLD. Yes gold was a buy back in 1999, but it is not now. You want to wait forever and leave yourself at the mercy of the International Bankers ? Go ahead. They own over 50 % of all the gold that is held. Period. The rest is in items such as jewelry and electronics and individuals such as yourself. The gold market is controlled, lock stock and barrel, by the same scumbags that ripped the USA off back in 1913. Gold is a sucker's bet for us small fish. To make gold real, you have to control it, and nobody here does. Face Facts.[/QUOTE] I thought the point of owning gold was not that it wasn't controlled largely by central banks, but that it had intrinsic value, and that the total supply of it in circulation couldn't be inflated quickly (although it could still be inflated over time.) If one doesn't purchase metals, what options for asset safety remain? Real estate is safe, but it is currently wildly overpriced. Stocks are not safe at all, and the market will tank if there is a contraction in the housing market. The long-term value of both the dollar and the euro doesn't look promising. I am open to suggestions.
2005-08-06 16:21 | User Profile
Not everyone can afford gold but anyone is able to buy silver, once they wake up.
Silver will be used as loose change for gold and will be in command of the coming economy and economy full of chaos and distrust.
Buy silver.
Gloom and doom? nawwwww just the plain facts as I see them.
Am I crazy? of course, anyone who thinks outside the circle is crazy.
2005-08-06 17:09 | User Profile
I keep money here: [url]http://www.ingdirect.com/osa_work/[/url] for want of a better idea.
2005-08-06 17:46 | User Profile
[QUOTE=EDUMAKATEDMOFO]I would stick with the English-weight demoninated pieces: Gold American Eagles, Krugerrands, Maple Leafs, or the Australian bullion coins. Of these, the Krugerrands carry the lowest premiums, but not by a real significant amount. But I have also heard they are more widely counterfeited. The Maples and Australian Lunars are 24 karat (99.99% pure), and are thus extremely susceptible to marring.... but are more beautiful.
For all bullion, save on premiums by buying the full-ounce coins, rather than 1/10 or 1/4 or 1/2 ounce pieces.
For silver, I like the one-ounce rounds. I prefer the "generic" rounds from the reputable refiners, like Engelhard, A-Mark, Johnson Mathey, etc., but it matters not, as long as they carry the .999 silver inscription on them. Lower premiums than the US Silver Eagles, but the Eagles do look nice.
Best bang for buck in silver is of course the 90% & 40% coins... all pre-'1965 dimes, quarters and halves are 90% silver. 1965-1970 halves are 40%. Bought in bulk, these can be had for at or below spot value. Get ones with the least amount of wear as possible.
THere are are several trustworthy online vendors, but then shipping is an issue. Silver and gold are heavy. But then, buying from out-of-state means you can forgo sales tax, which you MAY (state laws differ) suffer from by your local dealer.
Without a doubt, the best way to purchase coins is to attend large coin shows, where you'll find out-of-state dealers (avoid sales tax), and at the same time obviously avoiding shipping. You see exactly what you're buying, and you can haggle a bit.[/QUOTE]Very good grasp of the situation. I'll bet you hang out at
[url]http://www.goldismoney.info/forums/index.php[/url]
My personal reccommendation (and I put my money where my mouth is) is 90% silver pre-1965 US coins. Like you said, most bang for your buck.
2005-08-07 03:17 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Quantrill]I thought the point of owning gold was not that it wasn't controlled largely by central banks, but that it had intrinsic value, and that the total supply of it in circulation couldn't be inflated quickly (although it could still be inflated over time.) If one doesn't purchase metals, what options for asset safety remain? Real estate is safe, but it is currently wildly overpriced. Stocks are not safe at all, and the market will tank if there is a contraction in the housing market. The long-term value of both the dollar and the euro doesn't look promising. I am open to suggestions.[/QUOTE]
Nothing is guaranteed, Quantrill. Government Bonds yield thier 2 % annual. The monetary system is based upon the mass dealers. Mass dealers meaning over a billion and that is where the percentage returns happen. There are people who hold this kind of incredible wealth. The money they own and use is obscene. How they spend it is also obscene . Bottom line concerning this thread, you will get nowhere investing in gold. Investing your Federal Reserve Notes into gold today is like trying to buy back what was spent 80 years ago. Gold has gone up 10000 % since the International Bankers took over the US currency. They own it, and if you buy it, you accomplish nothing. The economy is still free enough for us to make MUCH BETTER returns.
2005-08-08 17:52 | User Profile
Gold and silver are among the many things that many will wish they had instead of a wheelbarrow-full of FRN's, worthless stock and/or bond certificates, or a bunch of digital currency units that can't be taken into possession or used someday.
[url="http://degenhart.us/blog/?p=156"][url=""][font=Arial][size=2][url=""]What To Do In Light Of The Housing Bubble[/url][/size][/font][/url][/url]
2005-08-30 15:43 | User Profile
Im really in a sticky point here. I want to start buying gold, but the funds I would use, are being used to trade stocks with. At some point I will buy a good portion as a safety net, but not as an investment.
2005-09-02 14:01 | User Profile
Is anyone here familiar with this outfit? [url="http://www.apmex.com"]www.apmex.com [/url] Does anyone have any buying experiences to share, good or bad?
2005-09-02 14:17 | User Profile
If you are thinking of putting serious money into gold, read this site: [url]http://www.gata.org/[/url]
Personally, I would pick silver. It is far more likely to circulate, and there is a lot more of it around--that makes it harder to manipulate. Even then, financial markets can be rigged.
The real problem is not "what medium" but "what market". A small, compact societal group commited to mutual care would be worth a lot more than baubles to throw at the natives. Put your trust in people you can trust and invest your worthless greenbacks there instead. The problem with the idea that silver and gold is worth something is that our modern rotted minds don't know a good deal when they see it--very few would take something of intrinsic worth if the transaction seems out of the ordinary. It's like the old joke about "Do you take Federal Reserve?" "I'm sorry, we don't accept that." We're talking the same population that a generation ago bought Savings Bonds. Stupidity does cause market distortions, as well as manipulation. Would you like to buy a tulip?
2005-09-02 14:24 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Quantrill]Is anyone here familiar with this outfit? [url="http://www.apmex.com"]www.apmex.com [/url] Does anyone have any buying experiences to share, good or bad?[/QUOTE] Bought silver from them. Prompt and professional. They are very competitive.
They do require a credit card confirmation even if paying by wire. Also note that shipping is extra (but reasonable).
Their spread between buy and sell on bags of 90% silver coins is less than 3%, making silver a somewhat "liquid" commodity.
2005-09-02 14:28 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Macrobius]
Personally, I would pick silver. It is far more likely to circulate, and there is a lot more of it around--[/QUOTE]Actually there is not any proof that there is more silver around than gold (above ground), which is another reason to buy silver. Silver has been consumed extensively in industry for decades.
2005-09-02 14:53 | User Profile
[QUOTE=travis]Actually there is not any proof that there is more silver around than gold (above ground), which is another reason to buy silver. Silver has been consumed extensively in industry for decades.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but then again no one knows how much silver is socked away in private hands. It could be a heck of alot.
I've dealt with [url]http://www.discountsilverclub.com/[/url] and the lady that runs this site doesn't mess around. She's out of Texas.
2005-09-02 15:15 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Macrobius] Personally, I would pick silver. It is far more likely to circulate, and there is a lot more of it around--that makes it harder to manipulate. Even then, financial markets can be rigged. I was actually thinking of getting a bag of 90% silver coins, and some Krugerrands. My thinking was that the gold would be a way to protect assets from inflation and dollar devaluation, while the silver could be used for actual barter, should the need arise.
[QUOTE=Macrobius] The real problem is not "what medium" but "what market". A small, compact societal group commited to mutual care would be worth a lot more than baubles to throw at the natives. Put your trust in people you can trust and invest your worthless greenbacks there instead.[/QUOTE] I understand your point, and I agree with it. At this point, however, I am convinced that the dollar is going to continue to lose value. I am looking for some way to store assets in a form that will not be impacted by this devaluation, and gold (or silver) seem like the best options. If you have another suggestion, I am all ears.
2005-09-02 15:18 | User Profile
[QUOTE=travis]Bought silver from them. Prompt and professional. They are very competitive.
They do require a credit card confirmation even if paying by wire. Also note that shipping is extra (but reasonable).
Their spread between buy and sell on bags of 90% silver coins is less than 3%, making silver a somewhat "liquid" commodity.[/QUOTE] Thanks, travis. I am just a little naturally anxious about wiring money to an internet company.
2005-09-02 16:32 | User Profile
[url]www.tulving.com[/url] is good. silver is best for trade and appreciation. both gold and silver are being manipulated to preserve the value of "dollars". but there is a limit to what can be done to preserve "dollars" from becoming worthless. if you want to do well, "buy and never sell".
2005-09-02 18:18 | User Profile
Franklin Sanders is a Christian gentleman who is supportive of the Kinist movement. He sells gold & silver outside of Tennessee.
He has some good info on his website: [URL]http://www.the-moneychanger.com[/URL]
2005-09-16 15:29 | User Profile
Check out this auction: [url]http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBSAA:US:11&Item=8335475719[/url]
It's ebay, so it goes without saying: Beware.
2005-09-16 15:59 | User Profile
FYI -- Gold has jumped from $447 to $459.50 over the past week, after months of little movement. It very well could drop back down below $450, but it could also be the start of a long overdue, permanent rise against the dollar.
2005-09-16 16:14 | User Profile
Yes, gold just broke key resistance.... an 18-year high. Could be interesting. Silver seems to be lagging somewhat though.
I'm taking the plunge on this Silver Eagle auction... paying thorugh paypal, you're covered up to $1000. I'll be the guinea pig.
2005-09-16 16:26 | User Profile
For anyone else who is thinking of buying metals, I ordered some silver and gold from [url="http://apmex.com"]apmex.com[/url] last week, and I had an extremely good experience. They have competitive pricing ($6.95 over spot on Krugerrands) and were extremely responsive.