← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · JoseyWales
Thread ID: 19354 | Posts: 15 | Started: 2005-07-31
2005-07-31 02:59 | User Profile
Not sure if this has been answered before. Is the SBC (Southern Babtist Convention) allied with the Dispensationalist thinking ?
2005-07-31 03:03 | User Profile
Certainly is. They recognize the Scofield Bible as legitimate, although from my understanding there are can be a wide variety among SBC Baptists on various points of doctrine, especially non-essential ones.
2005-07-31 03:25 | User Profile
Falwell has been associated with the SBC for some time now.
'nuff said
2005-07-31 05:06 | User Profile
I would say that a vast majority of SBC churches are Christian-Zionist, a contradiction in terms if there ever was one. Nearly every man jack of them are Chialists, Millenialists and Dispensationists.
2005-07-31 13:49 | User Profile
The SBC has a resolution which, in part, states, "RESOLVED, That the messengers to the Southern Baptist Convention meeting in Phoenix, Arizona, June 17ââ¬â18, 2003, denounce all forms of anti-Semitism as contrary to the teachings of our Messiah and an assault on the revelation of Holy Scripture."
I wonder (sarcastically) if anyone who voted for this resolution has actually read the Bible, else they'd know that our Messiah's teachings are very "anti-semitic." Unbelieving Jews belong to Satan. Jews are vipers. How will Jews escape Hell. Jews are liars and murderers. Jews are hypocrites. Jews don't believe scripture. Jesus blamed Jews when he predicted his death.
Not only has the SBC made itself guilty of jewish idolatry, they've also made themselves liars. But, doesn't this apply to most "conservative" denominations?
2005-07-31 15:51 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Happy Hacker]The SBC has a resolution which, in part, states, "RESOLVED, That the messengers to the Southern Baptist Convention meeting in Phoenix, Arizona, June 17ââ¬â18, 2003, denounce all forms of anti-Semitism as contrary to the teachings of our Messiah and an assault on the revelation of Holy Scripture."
I wonder (sarcastically) if anyone who voted for this resolution has actually read the Bible, else they'd know that our Messiah's teachings are very "anti-semitic." Unbelieving Jews belong to Satan. Jews are vipers. How will Jews escape Hell. Jews are liars and murderers. Jews are hypocrites. Jews don't believe scripture. Jesus blamed Jews when he predicted his death.
Not only has the SBC made itself guilty of jewish idolatry, they've also made themselves liars. But, doesn't this apply to most "conservative" denominations?[/QUOTE] If I can play the Devil's Advocate here, a case can be made that those harsh words of Jesus were directed toward the hypocritical and scheming Pharisees rather than the Jews in general. After all, the first Christians were Jews. And then there's Chapter 11 of Romans:
Romans 11:1-32
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. 9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. 11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. Here's my understanding of this chapter, FWIW (and the preceding ones, which are related). Paul is saying that the Jews, by means of their unbelief as foreordained by God, are being used for the "ignoble purpose" of bringing salvation to the Gentiles. Their "blindness," however, is only temporary, and eventually they will accept Christ as well (when "the fulness of the Gentiles be come in"). This also ties in with what Jesus said about "the first being last and the last, first." The Jews were originally the first to receive salvation; now they'll be the last because of their unbelief.
Paul still maintains that the Jews are a special people on account of their blood relation to the patriarchs. They may be "enemies of the gospel," but they're still "beloved for the fathers' sakes." In other words, the Jews are still God's Special Pets in some sense. As far as I can tell, this is the view of most Churches today, though the Catholic Church's recent response to kike whining about the Pope's so-called "terrorism snub" is a ray of hope.
2005-08-01 04:29 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Happy Hacker]The SBC has a resolution which, in part, states, "RESOLVED, That the messengers to the Southern Baptist Convention meeting in Phoenix, Arizona, June 17ââ¬â18, 2003, denounce all forms of anti-Semitism as contrary to the teachings of our Messiah and an assault on the revelation of Holy Scripture."[/QUOTE]
Needless to say this means a number of the most famous and respected Christian leaders in history will be on the SBC's black list.
2005-08-01 12:40 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Angler]If I can play the Devil's Advocate here, a case can be made that those harsh words of Jesus were directed toward the hypocritical and scheming Pharisees rather than the Jews in general. After all, the first Christians were Jews. And then there's Chapter 11 of Romans: A case can be made certainly. The term "the Jews" is ambiguous, however it is widely used throughout the first five books of the NT, pretty much indicative of the general estrangement I think between the NT Christians and judaism in general, although it was nuanced.
You have a quite good exigesis overall though
Here's my understanding of this chapter, FWIW (and the preceding ones, which are related). Paul is saying that the Jews, by means of their unbelief as foreordained by God, are being used for the "ignoble purpose" of bringing salvation to the Gentiles. Their "blindness," however, is only temporary, and eventually they will accept Christ as well (when "the fulness of the Gentiles be come in"). This also ties in with what Jesus said about "the first being last and the last, first." The Jews were originally the first to receive salvation; now they'll be the last because of their unbelief.
Paul still maintains that the Jews are a special people on account of their blood relation to the patriarchs. They may be "enemies of the gospel," but they're still "beloved for the fathers' sakes." In other words, the Jews are still God's Special Pets [B]in some sense.[/B] As far as I can tell, this is the view of most Churches today, though the Catholic Church's recent response to kike whining about the Pope's so-called "terrorism snub" is a ray of hope.[/QUOTE]In some sense, is the key phrase. God maintains a relationship with those who have served him in the past, even if they have now departed him, like wayward children (aka the prodigal son). But the present state is extremely nebulous, and one can argue that almost all attempts to definitize a relationship between jews and Christians today, beyond that existing between any other heathen people, belong in the category of "judiazing teachings" which of course are condemned in the NT (Galations) in probably the strongest language of condemnation used in the whole NT, even though judaizing teachings was one of the most common and persistent heresies in the NT.
Clearly Christianity owes something to the jews, and one cannot make a wholesale condemnation of the jews, as with any other people, in a Christian spirit. Those ideologies which require that, like the Nazi's, along with genocide and demonization, are clearly against the Christian spirit, and are as such implacable foes of Christianity. Statements like those of the SBC I think generally just refelect this very basic tenat of Christianity, and as such are generally not even noticed in Christendom. Those that make something of it in general are just looking for something to whine about.
2005-08-01 15:25 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Centinel]Falwell has been associated with the SBC for some time now. [/QUOTE]
Falwell is not SBC and never has been to my knowledge.
He's Independent Baptist a la Bob Jones.
2005-08-01 15:32 | User Profile
[QUOTE=JoseyWales]Not sure if this has been answered before. Is the SBC (Southern Babtist Convention) allied with the Dispensationalist thinking ?[/QUOTE]
Not officially, but now, for all practical purposes, they might as well be.
From the Baptist Faith and Message:
***X. Last Things
God, in His own time and in His own way, will bring the world to its appropriate end. According to His promise, Jesus Christ will return personally and visibly in glory to the earth; the dead will be raised; and Christ will judge all men in righteousness. The unrighteous will be consigned to Hell, the place of everlasting punishment. The righteous in their resurrected and glorified bodies will receive their reward and will dwell forever in Heaven with the Lord.
Isaiah 2:4; 11:9; Matthew 16:27; 18:8-9; 19:28; 24:27,30,36,44; 25:31-46; 26:64; Mark 8:38; 9:43-48; Luke 12:40,48; 16:19-26; 17:22-37; 21:27-28; John 14:1-3; Acts 1:11; 17:31; Romans 14:10; 1 Corinthians 4:5; 15:24-28,35-58; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Philippians 3:20-21; Colossians 1:5; 3:4; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18; 5:1ff.; 2 Thessalonians 1:7ff.; 2; 1 Timothy 6:14; 2 Timothy 4:1,8; Titus 2:13; Hebrews 9:27-28; James 5:8; 2 Peter 3:7ff.; 1 John 2:28; 3:2; Jude 14; Revelation 1:18; 3:11; 20:1-22:13.***
No endorsement of Pre-Mil dispensationalism there and it does vary church by church. But again, in practice it's a pretty safe bet that most SBC member churches are filled with folks who have 'Left Behind' and Jack van Impe's latest at home on their bookshelf.
2005-08-01 15:34 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Happy Hacker]The SBC has a resolution which, in part, states, "RESOLVED, That the messengers to the Southern Baptist Convention meeting in Phoenix, Arizona, June 17–18, 2003, denounce all forms of anti-Semitism as contrary to the teachings of our Messiah and an assault on the revelation of Holy Scripture."[/QUOTE]
If you look hard enough you'd probably find a similar statement in most every Christian denomination today.
2005-08-01 15:41 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Texas Dissident]Not officially, but now, for all practical purposes, they might as well be.
From the Baptist Faith and Message:
***X. Last Things
God, in His own time and in His own way, will bring the world to its appropriate end. According to His promise, Jesus Christ will return personally and visibly in glory to the earth; the dead will be raised; and Christ will judge all men in righteousness. The unrighteous will be consigned to Hell, the place of everlasting punishment. The righteous in their resurrected and glorified bodies will receive their reward and will dwell forever in Heaven with the Lord.
Isaiah 2:4; 11:9; Matthew 16:27; 18:8-9; 19:28; 24:27,30,36,44; 25:31-46; 26:64; Mark 8:38; 9:43-48; Luke 12:40,48; 16:19-26; 17:22-37; 21:27-28; John 14:1-3; Acts 1:11; 17:31; Romans 14:10; 1 Corinthians 4:5; 15:24-28,35-58; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Philippians 3:20-21; Colossians 1:5; 3:4; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18; 5:1ff.; 2 Thessalonians 1:7ff.; 2; 1 Timothy 6:14; 2 Timothy 4:1,8; Titus 2:13; Hebrews 9:27-28; James 5:8; 2 Peter 3:7ff.; 1 John 2:28; 3:2; Jude 14; Revelation 1:18; 3:11; 20:1-22:13.***
I consider every real Christian in the world believes that.
No endorsement of Pre-Mil dispensationalism there and it does vary church by church. But again, in practice it's a pretty safe bet that most SBC member churches are filled with folks who have 'Left Behind' and Jack van Impe's latest at home on their bookshelf.[/QUOTE]Well I think recognition of the Scofield Bible as legitimate by the SBC is among the best indications of how dispensationalism vaulted to its high place.
If it wasn't for things like the Scofield Bible - sure a lot of Baptists have copies of Left Behind. Even more have copies of TV Guide - but that doesn't make TV guide per se a source of religious authority.
2005-08-01 16:07 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Okiereddust]If it wasn't for things like the Scofield Bible - sure a lot of Baptists have copies of Left Behind. Even more have copies of TV Guide - but that doesn't make TV guide per se a source of religious authority.[/QUOTE]
I was just trying to give my last sentence a little artistic flair. Sorry.
2005-08-01 17:20 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Texas Dissident]Not officially, but now, for all practical purposes, they might as well be.
No endorsement of Pre-Mil dispensationalism there and it does vary church by church. But again, in practice it's a pretty safe bet that most SBC member churches are filled with folks who have 'Left Behind' and Jack van Impe's latest at home on their bookshelf.[/QUOTE]
The SBC church I grew up in was hard-core pre-mil dispy all the way, and I never met any kids in youth groups from other churches who felt any different. Of course, we were always checking out the purty ankles of the new girls more than discussing apocalyptic eschatology for the most part, but I can't remember meeting a kid (or their parents) who didn't believe in the coming Secret Rapture. Empty clothes on the floor, crashed cars, raging unattended kitchen fires- the whole works, just as the Left Behind series "documents" it.
Of course, our current UMC church- very large, very conservative in comparison with the national UMC- sells copies of the LB series in the church bookstore. Sort of an unwritten endorsement seems to be the rule, although the pastors don't want to discuss it...
2005-08-01 19:52 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Angler]If I can play the Devil's Advocate here, a case can be made that those harsh words of Jesus were directed toward the hypocritical and scheming Pharisees rather than the Jews in general. After all, the first Christians were Jews. And then there's Chapter 11 of Romans:
Paul's words aside, what Jesus said would be taken as pure anti-Semitism if you were to say them. The people who voted for that resolution ignore what Jesus said. If they can't ignore them, they'd go through contortions to misrepresent what Jesus said. Starting with what you suggest, that Jesus was talking about the scheming Pharisees. However, if you look at Jesus's explanations, his words usally apply to all Jews who reject Him. If they love the Father, they would love Him.
28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
The Isrealites are corporately loved, but so are we all. For God so loved the world. Romans 11 just means to me that Jews can be saved, too.