← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · Petr
Thread ID: 19340 | Posts: 27 | Started: 2005-07-30
2005-07-30 10:26 | User Profile
[url]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2005/07/30/dl3002.xml&sSheet=/opinion/2005/07/30/ixopinion.html[/url]
[COLOR=Red][SIZE=5]Christian v communist[/SIZE][/COLOR]
B[/B] [FONT=Arial]
[B]Richard Spencer reports today from Beijing that there may now be more practising Christians in China than there are members of the Communist Party.
The precise figures cannot be known, in a country in which Christians are still persecuted. But the evidence suggests that there may be as many as 80 million or even 100 million members of underground Christian churches in China, unapproved by the state.
The Chinese Communist Party, meanwhile, has only 70 million members. [/B]
If those figures for worshippers are even roughly accurate, then we are looking at a very remarkable development in the history not only of Asia but of all mankind.
Christianity and communism are fundamentally incompatible - one a spiritual creed, the other materialist. Christianity lays down that a man's responsibility to his neighbour is personal, a matter for his individual conscience, while communism decrees that all duties are collective, to be enforced by the state. At first glance, communism may look like the fairer system, and Christianity the more selfish.
In fact, of course, communism and its blood-brother, fascism, have been responsible - in Asia, Europe, Africa and South America - for more human misery over the past century than any other systems of belief thought up by man. By denying human beings their individuality, all totalitarian systems brutalise the human condition, reducing everyone in their sway to the status of ants, or cogs in a machine. Christianity teaches that each of us is a moral being, responsible for our actions to our Maker, and individually bound to love our neighbours as ourselves.
Xun Jinzhen, a Christian convert who runs a beauty salon in Beijing, put it eloquently when he said: "We have very few people who believe in communism as a faith. So there's an emptiness in their hearts."
The growth of the Christian churches in China is a story of great courage and belief in the special status of man as a moral creature, for whom good and evil are eternal truths that cannot be redefined by politicians. It gives enormous hope for the future happiness of a people who have suffered under the dying creed of communism for much too long.[/FONT]
[url]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/07/30/wchina30.xml[/url]
[COLOR=Red][SIZE=5]Christianity is China's new social revolution[/SIZE][/COLOR] [COLOR=DarkRed] [B]By Richard Spencer in Beijing (Filed: 30/07/2005)[/B] [FONT=Georgia]
The beauty salon near Beijing Zoo gives its customers more than they bargain for: not just facials and manicures, but the Word of the Lord.
Its owner, Xun Jinzhen, sees beauty salons as a good place to transform souls as well as bodies.
"I introduced 40 people to the church last year," he said.
Mr Xun, and millions of other Chinese Christian converts like him, may well be living proof that God moves in a mysterious way.
During the Cultural Revolution, Chairman Mao's China turned on itself, torturing and killing hundreds of thousands of people. But the seeds were sown for an unexpected upsurge in Christianity.
In a social revolution that has prompted a heavy-handed response from the Politburo, it is spreading through town and countryside and Chinese communities abroad.
Protestantism and Catholicism are among the approved faiths, the others being Budd-hism, Taoism and Islam.
Buddhism and Taoism claim most worshippers but the state-sanctioned churches count up to 35 million followers. More significant are the underground or "house" churches, which are said to have 80 or even 100 million members.
Visits to villages in backward rural provinces or to urban churches in Beijing, where even on weekdays the young and middle-aged gather to proclaim their faith, confirm the ease with which conversions can be won.
"City people have real problems, and mental pain, that they can't resolve on their own," said Mr Xun. "So it's easy for us to convert these people to Christianity. In the countryside, people are richer than before, but they still have problems with their health and in family relationships. Then it's also very easy to bring them to Christianity."
One woman told a gathering of hundreds at Kuanjie official protestant church in Beijing last Saturday: "My brother's daughter had a virus which doctors had never seen before.
"She was on a ventilator and everyone had lost hope. But I prayed for her, and she recovered. Now her family follow Christ too." The association of Christianity with healing powers may be embarrassing in the West, but in China it is one of conversion's driving forces, particularly in rural areas, which lack health services.
The woman, 33, came from Anhui, a poor province of central China. In her village, she said, the house church had grown from five or six people to 100 in five years. Religion - and superstition - took off as ideological fervour declined and materialism grew under Deng Xiaoping's economic reforms, which followed Mao.
"We have very few people who believe in communism as a faith, so there's an emptiness in their hearts," said Mr Xun, 37. His mother is a Christian too, and his father, a retired county-level Communist Party secretary, is a sympathetic onlooker.
China's rulers are said to be ambiguous about Christianity's growth. Some see its emphasis on personal morality as a force for stability. House churches which go along with the authority and theology of the official organisations are often left alone.
But many reject the party's control over Christian practice and doctrine, and these are seen as a threat. After all, 80 million members would mean there are now more Christians than Communists in China.
Few believe that many of the party's 70 million members keep the faith burning any more.
This year the Politburo made it easier for churches to register, but at the same time launched a wave of persecution of those which refused.
Zhang Rongliang, the head of the China for Christ Church, said to be the biggest with 10 million members, was arrested last December and remains in prison. Scores of pastors and followers have been held, along with Roman Catholics, including underground bishops.
Overseas groups such as the London-based Christian Solidarity Worldwide say Christians are regularly beaten and one was killed in police custody.
Lawyers say the authorities try not to charge Christians with religious offences, for fear of criticism from abroad.
Mr Xun, the beauty salon evangelist, has never been in trouble. But perhaps by coincidence, a week after he fired an anti-Christian employee, there was a police raid.
It turned out the salon's acupuncture service lacked a proper licence.
Mr Xun received a heavy fine, which he could not pay, and he was forced to hand over the running of the business to others.
He wonders whether it was acupuncture that upset the authorities, or the Gospel.[/FONT][/COLOR]
2005-07-30 15:01 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Petr]Mr Xun, the beauty salon evangelist, has never been in trouble. But perhaps by coincidence, a week after he fired an anti-Christian employee, there was a police raid.
It turned out the salon's acupuncture service lacked a proper licence.
Mr Xun received a heavy fine, which he could not pay, and he was forced to hand over the running of the business to others.
He wonders whether it was acupuncture that upset the authorities, or the Gospel.[/QUOTE]Yeah.
China is an amazing story. At the time of the Communist takeover it seemed all the vast mission activity in the country had been lost. Maybe in some way it sowed the seeds for what is taking place now.
Now I can't help but compare the struggle of Christians in China with that in the early Roman empire. One, that like the earier struggle may ultimately determine the future of mankind for many centuries.
2005-07-30 21:37 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Okiereddust]Yeah.
China is an amazing story. At the time of the Communist takeover it seemed all the vast mission activity in the country had been lost. Maybe in some way it sowed the seeds for what is taking place now.
Now I can't help but compare the struggle of Christians in China with that in the early Roman empire. One, that like the earier struggle may ultimately determine the future of mankind for many centuries.[/QUOTE] I don't see any reason to be excited. They will just abandon it within a century when they all have plenty of money just like the west has. :whstl:
2005-07-30 21:39 | User Profile
[QUOTE=OttoR]I don't see any reason to be excited. They will just abandon it within a century when they all have plenty of money just like the west has. :whstl:[/QUOTE]I know. The devil never gives up on people.
2005-07-30 23:17 | User Profile
This is not the first time China has been a major "growth" area for Christianity. Nestorian Christians used to be very common in China a thousand years ago.
Religions in China are like fads - they come and they go. The Chinese remain Chinese. Bible thumpers shouldn't get their hopes up.
2005-07-30 23:45 | User Profile
You've been listening to that theologically pig-ignorant "Emperor Palpatine", haven't you, grep?
Petr
2005-07-31 00:06 | User Profile
There were some very influential Jesuit advisors in China a few centuries ago, Portuguese, I believe.
2005-07-31 01:24 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Petr]You've been listening to that theologically pig-ignorant "Emperor Palpatine", haven't you, grep?
Petr[/QUOTE]I don't know who Emperor Palpatine is, apart from the dude in the Star Wars movies, that is.
Foreign religions come and go in China. That's an historical fact. Chinese culture is syncretistic. The Chinese have never allowed a single, exclusivistic religion to take over their culture the way Christians and Muslims like to do.
2005-07-31 01:26 | User Profile
[QUOTE=robinder]There were some very influential Jesuit advisors in China a few centuries ago, Portuguese, I believe.[/QUOTE]That's a drop in the bucket. Not at all comparable to the growth of native Chinese Christians today, or the existence of native Nestorian Christians formerly.
2005-07-31 01:46 | User Profile
[QUOTE=grep14w]I don't know who Emperor Palpatine is, apart from the dude in the Star Wars movies, that is.
Foreign religions come and go in China. That's an historical fact. Chinese culture is syncretistic. The Chinese have never allowed a single, exclusivistic religion to take over their culture the way Christians and Muslims like to do.[/QUOTE] None of the Asians really abandon their own cultures. I had a Cambodian barber when I was younger and even though he claimed to be "Christian" it was obvious that he still worshipped Buddha and all of the various Asian nature religions.
2005-07-31 01:58 | User Profile
[QUOTE=OttoR]None of the Asians really abandon their own cultures. I had a Cambodian barber when I was younger and even though he claimed to be "Christian" it was obvious that he still worshipped Buddha and all of the various Asian nature religions.[/QUOTE]Good anecdotal example, Otto.
East asian cultures (that is, those modeled on Chinese culture, including Korea, Japan, Vietnam, etc) are syncretistic. People can and do follow more than one religious tradition at a time.
Exclusivistic religions like Christianity and Islam have made lots of converts in China over the past two thousand years, but the idea that only one religion is true and that you can't practice more than one religious tradition just doesn't make a lot of sense to traditional east asian cultures.
Enforced atheism of the communist regime has probably given Christianity an opening by destroying much of traditional Chinese belief, but I'll wager the long term rulers of China (assuming the existing communist rule does not last) will opt for a return to some kind of Confucian ruling philosophy. Other traditional beliefs, ancestor worship, Taoism, Buddhism, etc., will return (are returning, in fact), and the usual syncretism will return as well.
Christianity may or may not survive in large numbers long term in China, but it is unlikely to take over China the way it once took over the old Roman Empire. Of course there is a first time for everything, so who knows. It would be a sharp break with Chinese civilization if this happens though.
2005-07-31 02:10 | User Profile
Christianity and communism are fundamentally incompatible - one a spiritual creed, the other materialist. Christianity lays down that a man's responsibility to his neighbour is personal, a matter for his individual conscience, while communism decrees that all duties are collective, to be enforced by the state. It should be pointed out (if it isn't obvious enough) that there's no relationship between materialism and social collectivism. Just because some group or movement adopts both of these as tenets of its philosophy doesn't mean there's any intrinsic link between the two. Many people, myself included, despise communism and all forms of statism and forced collectivism, yet consider ourselves essentially materialists who are skeptical about the existence of anything supernatural.
Anyway, if Christianity ever supersedes communism in China or anywhere else, you sure won't hear me complaining. But it's possible that communism will just become more tolerant of religion and make room for it without giving way to it.
I've never understood why communist leaders fear religion so much, anyway. Whether it's Christianity or Falun Gong, as long as it doesn't advocate overthrow of the government or disobedience in matters unrelated to religion, why should it matter to the state if people worship as they choose? If I were a commie leader, I'd be more inclined to use religion as a tool of mass manipulation than to forbid it. If Robert Tilton, Benny Hinn, and Pat Robertson can use religion to get suckers to send them money, and if George Bush can use religion to get votes and rally much of the nation behind him as he sends US soldiers off to war in Iraq, then why should the commies do the same?
Commies should fear people like me in their midst, who recognize no authority higher than ourselves, a lot more than they fear Christians, who are told that to resist the civil authorities brings damnation.
2005-07-31 02:18 | User Profile
[QUOTE=grep14w]Chinese culture is syncretistic. [/QUOTE] Most of it, though, is native in origin. Marxism and Buddhism were the notable exceptions, and industrialism, if that counts, as it not strictly culture.
[QUOTE]That's a drop in the bucket. Not at all comparable to the growth of native Chinese Christians today, [/QUOTE] Yes, in raw numbers, but those Jesuits were more influential policy-wise than todays native Chinese Christians.
2005-07-31 07:00 | User Profile
Christian China would be great: there would be an incentive to bring all those chinks by good folks in Christian Churches. We are all brothers with messicans. Christian religion in Africa really made that place paradize.
2005-07-31 07:05 | User Profile
[QUOTE=robinder]Most of it, though, is native in origin. Marxism and Buddhism were the notable exceptions, and industrialism, if that counts, as it not strictly culture. Buddhism has been so thoroughly Sinicized in China that's it's hardly possible to call it "foreign". Anyway although a religion of mass salvation like Christianity and Islam, Buddhism was never exclusivistic, so it was never that hard to adapt it to Chinese culture in the first place.
Marxism, if it survives at all in China, will probably slowly morph itself back into Confucianism, the traditional State Philosophy of China. Confucianism is fairly agnostic or atheist anyway (that is, it doesn't really require belief in God or gods), so that's really not that far-out a possibility. Marxism is really becoming less and less relevent to the practical realities dealt with by the ruling classes of the Communist Party in China anyway, so sooner or later Marxism will either disappear or be modified beyond recognition.
Yes, in raw numbers, but those Jesuits were more influential policy-wise than todays native Chinese Christians.[/QUOTE]Jesuits were a brief influence on court policy in a particular Chinese dynasty. Their overall impact on Chinese culture was practically nil. I'm not knocking them, but there was little they could do at that time to influence such a massive and fossilized civilization.
2005-07-31 07:21 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Angler]I've never understood why communist leaders fear religion so much, anyway. Whether it's Christianity or Falun Gong, as long as it doesn't advocate overthrow of the government or disobedience in matters unrelated to religion, why should it matter to the state if people worship as they choose? If I were a commie leader, I'd be more inclined to use religion as a tool of mass manipulation than to forbid it. If Robert Tilton, Benny Hinn, and Pat Robertson can use religion to get suckers to send them money, and if George Bush can use religion to get votes and rally much of the nation behind him as he sends US soldiers off to war in Iraq, then why should the commies do the same?[/QUOTE]Chinese central government has always been wary of religious sects - they have a history of forming mass movements and running riot and overthrowing central authority. Maybe it's a peculiarly Chinese thing.
Chinese emperors seemed primarily only interested in religion as justification for their rule - otherwise any religion that was too "enthusiastic" was bound to cause suspicion.
Romans emperors also had this tendency.
In fact even European aristocracy has from time to time disdained "religious enthusiasm".
Religion may be a form of social control, but it may also be a route to social rebellion. It gives the people "ideas" that the ruling class sometimes would prefer they not have.
Communism in Russia was different from China in one respect; its atheism was more a product of the fact that communism was a vehicle for atheistic Jews; it allowed them to attack the hated Christian natives while pretending not to be "Jews seeking revenge".
Anyway hardcore materialist atheistic philosophy is more a product of the 19th century. It's a bit of an anachronism. Most atheists/agnostics are more comfortable with Hume, rather than Hegel or Marx; more willing to accept probability and pragmatism rather than metaphysical certitude.
Old fashioned materialistic atheism has too much of the odor of religious fanaticism about it.
Commies should fear people like me in their midst, who recognize no authority higher than ourselves, a lot more than they fear Christians, who are told that to resist the civil authorities brings damnation. Yes, but "people like you" have always been pretty invisible and unlikely to try to convince others of your beliefs or otherwise start trouble. There just aren't enough of you to worry about.
2005-07-31 10:15 | User Profile
[COLOR=Purple][FONT=Arial][B][I] - "I don't know who Emperor Palpatine is, apart from the dude in the Star Wars movies, that is."[/I][/B][/FONT][/COLOR]
He is one guy at the new Phora Forum, who made almost exactly similar comments about Nestorians as a response to this article, here:
[url]http://niccoloandphora.mywowbb.com/forum4/1060-1.html[/url]
[COLOR=Purple][FONT=Arial][B][I] - "Exclusivistic religions like Christianity and Islam have made lots of converts in China over the past two thousand years, but the idea that only one religion is true and that you can't practice more than one religious tradition just doesn't make a lot of sense to traditional east asian cultures."[/I][/B][/FONT][/COLOR]
Christianity and Islam have [B]not [/B] made lots of converts in China before (Muslims there are mostly ethnic minorities like Turkic Uighurs), nothing comparable to the present situation.
Besides, all this stuff about syncretism could have been said about the ancient Greco-Roman culture as well. Things change.
[COLOR=Purple][FONT=Arial][B][I] - "I'll wager the long term rulers of China (assuming the existing communist rule does not last) will opt for a return to some kind of Confucian ruling philosophy."[/I][/B][/FONT][/COLOR]
They won't be able to put the genie back into the bottle or eradicate Christianity even if they wanted to. Christians have reached the "critical mass," and Christianity will greatly increase the independent spirit of Chinamen - they won't be slavishly obeying their leaders anymore, but will make their own choices.
Besides, such elementary phenomenons as [B]literacy[/B] have always followed in Christianity's footsteps, and literate Chinese masses are not likely to revert back to ancient Chinese folk religions any more than Odinism can seriously dream about becoming a state religion in Scandinavia.
Of course Chinese will develop their own brand of Christianity. But that's the beauty of it! Christianity allows each race and culture to develop their own version, just as long as certain fundamentals are kept. No Babelian Unitarian one-size-fits-all Christianity everywhere, no sir.
Petr
2005-07-31 10:47 | User Profile
[COLOR=Blue][FONT=Arial][B][I] - "Christian China would be great: there would be an incentive to bring all those chinks by good folks in Christian Churches."[/I][/B][/FONT][/COLOR]
Chinese Christian congregations are quite self-sufficient, they do not need welfare from Westerners.
Besides, most of them have so fundamentalist views that those liberal "Christians" that are mainly responsible for importing third-worlders would instinctively shy away from them...
[B][I][COLOR=Blue][FONT=Arial] - "Christian religion in Africa really made that place paradize."[/FONT][/COLOR][/I][/B]
The Christianization of Africa is still very much a "work in progress," so it's way too early to make such a final judgment. The worst African countries are Islamic or half-pagan ones anyways.
(For example, Zimbabwe is only 25 % Christian, according to CIA Factbook:
[url]http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/zi.html#People[/url]
Petr
2005-07-31 21:01 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Petr][COLOR=Purple][FONT=Arial][B][I] - "I don't know who Emperor Palpatine is, apart from the dude in the Star Wars movies, that is."[/I][/B][/FONT][/COLOR]
He is one guy at the new Phora Forum, who made almost exactly similar comments about Nestorians as a response to this article, here:
[url]http://niccoloandphora.mywowbb.com/forum4/1060-1.html[/url]
[COLOR=Purple][FONT=Arial][B][I] - "Exclusivistic religions like Christianity and Islam have made lots of converts in China over the past two thousand years, but the idea that only one religion is true and that you can't practice more than one religious tradition just doesn't make a lot of sense to traditional east asian cultures."[/I][/B][/FONT][/COLOR]
Christianity and Islam have [B]not [/B] made lots of converts in China before (Muslims there are mostly ethnic minorities like Turkic Uighurs), nothing comparable to the present situation. There are still Muslim Han Chinese living in southern China today. The great Chinese navigator, Wen Ho/Cheng Ho/Zheng He, was from this community. So your "facts" are not wholly correct. Even if these people were of non-Han extraction originally and there were no local converts (which is extremely unlikely), they are indistinguishable from Han Chinese today. Since they can easily blend back into the Han Chinese community these types of communities tend to shrink over time - which is why there are a lot fewer Muslems in China than there used to be, and no Nestorians (or Manicheans, or Jews) in China. Yes, Nestorianism was stronger in the turkic community than amongst Han Chinese but it is not correct to say that it had absolutely no impact amongst Han Chinese at all and no Han converts. I don't wish to quibble over numbers, merely pointing out past historical patterns.
Besides, all this stuff about syncretism could have been said about the ancient Greco-Roman culture as well. Things change.
I don't dispute that possibility. The Chinese communists have done a lot of damage to traditional Chinese culture.
[COLOR=Purple][FONT=Arial][B][I] - "I'll wager the long term rulers of China (assuming the existing communist rule does not last) will opt for a return to some kind of Confucian ruling philosophy."[/I][/B][/FONT][/COLOR]
They won't be able to put the genie back into the bottle or eradicate Christianity even if they wanted to. They don't have to. They merely have to outlast the current growth spurt and prevent the Christian Churches from enacting punitive measures against apostates who chose to leave the Churches. Chinese rulers have a lot of experience dealing with this. Outright repression hasn't really been necessary most of the time; much easier to get the religious sects fighting each other and poaching followers from each other. Buddhism was initially a very unwelcome aggressive new religion that gained huge numbers of converts and was unwelcome or suspected by Chinese rulers, too. It never succeeded in displacing native Chinese religions and also later entered periods of decline and renewal. > Christians have reached the "critical mass," and Christianity will greatly increase the independent spirit of Chinamen - they won't be slavishly obeying their leaders anymore, but will make their own choices.
That remains to be seen.> Besides, such elementary phenomenons as [B]literacy[/B] have always followed in Christianity's footsteps, and literate Chinese masses are not likely to revert back to ancient Chinese folk religions any more than Odinism can seriously dream about becoming a state religion in Scandinavia.
Christianity did not introduce literacy to China, Petr. You really are an arrogant fellow. Assuming for the sake of argument massive Chinese illiteracy amongst the peasants, it was the Chinese communists who "introduced" literacy to most Chinese, not Christianity. And in fact literacy was pretty high in China before the communists anyway. Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, these all have millions of highly literate adherents. They won't have any trouble winning back converts. You seem to think that Christianity is some magical religion different from all others and not subject to the same rules as everything else in existence. Well, believe that if it makes you happy, but the historical record is not your friend here.
Of course Chinese will develop their own brand of Christianity. But that's the beauty of it! Christianity allows each race and culture to develop their own version, just as long as certain fundamentals are kept. No Babelian Unitarian one-size-fits-all Christianity everywhere, no sir.
Petr[/QUOTE]I find your piety very touching. It would help your cause somewhat if you were not so consistently arrogant and dismissive of others.
Facts are, there are large Christian communities in Korea, as well, and in Vietnam. These cultures follow the Chinese pattern. In spite of large numbers of Christians, they still haven't changed the basic structure of these cultures. These Christian communities may not go away, ever, but they'll function as subcultures only, just as Muslims, Buddhists, and new religions such as Falung Gong in China or Dao Cao Dai (Caodaism) in Vietnam do. And since they are unlikely ever to seize state power as Christianity managed to do in the Roman Empire, they will not be able to force their religion on everyone.
As such, they will not be able to punish or prevent apostates, so after a period of growth, attitudes will evolve and change, other sects or cults or new religions or traditional beliefs will gain prominence, and Christians will leave for those religions, just as they formerly left other beliefs to join Christianity. It has happened before, is happening now, will probably happen again.
2005-08-01 15:23 | User Profile
[QUOTE=grep14w]You seem to think that Christianity is some magical religion different from all others and not subject to the same rules as everything else in existence.
Of course he does. :lol: What kind of Christian would think otherwise?
It would help your cause somewhat if you were not so consistently arrogant and dismissive of others.
It would help your cause if you were not so consistently anti-Christian.
2005-08-01 16:28 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Angler]Commies should fear people like me in their midst, who recognize no authority higher than ourselves, a lot more than they fear Christians, who are told that to resist the civil authorities brings damnation.[/QUOTE]
Ooohh, I just got a shudder. :shocking:
You are sooo tough, Angler. :notworth:
2005-08-01 19:35 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Texas Dissident]Ooohh, I just got a shudder. :shocking:
You are sooo tough, Angler. :notworth:[/QUOTE]You're absolutely right: I am really tough. Watch out for my wicked right hook. :boxing:
Actually, "toughness" has nothing to do with what I said. I could be a paraplegic and still have the same mindset. The point is that I follow my own conscience, and it alone has the final say in whatever I do or don't do. I don't recognize ANY earthly authority as final, and if God has a problem with anything I do, then He can tell me that Himself!
So I stand by what I said. Any commie or tyrant with a brain in his head would rather rule over a nation of people who think they owe him allegiance because "God said so" than over a nation of people with my views. Which would be more likely to rebel?
2005-08-01 21:22 | User Profile
[COLOR=Red][FONT=Arial][B][I] - ââ¬ÅThere are still Muslim Han Chinese living in southern China today.ââ¬Â[/I][/B][/FONT][/COLOR]
Actually they are [B]not[/B] of Han, but of Hui nationality and they are indeed not ââ¬Âpureââ¬Â Chinamen:
[I][COLOR=Purple]ââ¬ÂIslam first came to China more than a thousand years ago. Traders from the Middle East arrived both by land, along the ancient Silk Road, and by sea, especially to the south China coast. Today's Hui--overwhelmingly Sinicised--are the descendants of these traders, and of local Chinese converted by them.ââ¬Â [/COLOR] [/I]
[url]http://www.cpamedia.com/politics/hui_muslims_in_china/[/url]
[COLOR=Red][FONT=Arial][B][I] - ââ¬Âthey are indistinguishable from Han Chinese todayââ¬Â[/I][/B][/FONT][/COLOR]
You subscribe to a simplistic, materialistic ââ¬Ârace is everythingââ¬Â thinking. As my link above show, religion can thoroughly transform the behavior of an ethnic group:
[COLOR=Purple][I]ââ¬ÂUnlike the Han--who, at least until the advent of the PLA, despised soldiering, and traditionally considered a military career to be the lowest of callings--the Hui have no taboo against soldiering and, moreover, make fearsome warriors.ââ¬Â[/I][/COLOR]
[COLOR=Red][FONT=Arial][B][I] - ââ¬ÂSince they can easily blend back into the Han Chinese community these types of communities tend to shrink over time - which is why there are a lot fewer Muslems in China than there used to be, and no Nestorians (or Manicheans, or Jews) in China.ââ¬Â [/I] [/B] [/FONT] [/COLOR]
You are wrong - there are more Muslims in China than ever before.
[FONT=Arial][COLOR=Red][B][I] - ââ¬ÂYes, Nestorianism was stronger in the turkic community than amongst Han Chinese but it is not correct to say that it had absolutely no impact amongst Han Chinese at all and no Han converts.ââ¬Â[/I][/B][/COLOR][/FONT]
You are [I]shifting the goalposts [/I] - of course there were some Han Chinese converts, but they were a drop in the bucket, nothing like these 100 million (about 8 % of Chinaââ¬â¢s total population) of today.
[FONT=Arial][COLOR=Red][B][I] - ââ¬ÂI don't wish to quibble over numbers, merely pointing out past historical patterns.ââ¬Â[/I][/B][/COLOR][/FONT]
Your historical patterns are incorrect.
[FONT=Arial][COLOR=Red][B][I] - ââ¬ÅI don't dispute that possibility. The Chinese communists have done a lot of damage to traditional Chinese culture.ââ¬Â[/I][/B][/COLOR][/FONT]
You seem to be showing a (thinly) concealed [B]dislike[/B] at the idea of Chinese becoming Christians.
You also make the implicit assertion that Christianity is incompatible with ââ¬Åtraditional Chinese cultureââ¬Â - just like White neo-pagans assert that Christianity is incompatible with Western culture. In reality, genuine Christianity [B]properly compliments and purifies [/B] national traditions all over the world instead of destroying them.
[COLOR=Red][FONT=Arial][B][I] - ââ¬ÅThey don't have to. They merely have to outlast the current growth spurt and prevent the Christian Churches from enacting punitive measures against apostates who chose to leave the Churches.ââ¬Â[/I][/B][/FONT][/COLOR]
You seem to be confusing Christianity with Islam here. It is quite revealing that you think that religion is rendered impotent once it loses its power to physically intimidate apostates. Perhaps is it only natural for a power-worshipping Nazi to think like this.
Do you think that Jehovahââ¬â¢s Witnesses have official powers of the state to punish their apostates? No, but the way they deal with renegades is with [B]shunning and social ostracism[/B], and there is nothing that the state can do to prevent that.
Shunning is also the way how Jewish communities kept their flock together during all those centuries among Christians and Muslims.
[FONT=Arial][COLOR=Red][B] [I]- ââ¬ÅAssuming for the sake of argument massive Chinese illiteracy amongst the peasants, it was the Chinese communists who "introduced" literacy to most Chinese, not Christianity.ââ¬Â[/I][/B][/COLOR][/FONT]
You are reading too much into my comments, I didnââ¬â¢t specifically claim that Christianity brought widespread literacy to China, but simply pointed out the sociological fact that Christianity has promoted the education of masses all over the world more than any other religion, and therefore automatically has an advantage against traditional paganism in literate societies versus illiterate ones.
[FONT=Arial][COLOR=Red][B][I] - ââ¬ÂBuddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, these all have millions of highly literate adherents.ââ¬Â[/I][/B][/COLOR][/FONT]
Perhaps these days, but until a little while ago, only a thin literate priestly elite existed while Chinese peasant masses just performed polytheistic rites by rote, out of tradition, and not out of any deeper commitment that is typical for monotheists.
Seneca already noticed the basic difference between the commitment of Jews, a monotheistic ââ¬Âreligion of the bookââ¬Â as compared to pagan customs:
[COLOR=Blue][B] ââ¬ÂThey at least know the reasons for their ceremonies; but the mass of the rest of mankind know not why they do what they doââ¬Â[/B][/COLOR]
(quoted in Augustineââ¬â¢s [I]ââ¬ÂCivitate Dei[/I]ââ¬Â)
[FONT=Arial][COLOR=Red][B][I]- ââ¬ÂThey won't have any trouble winning back converts.ââ¬Â[/I][/B][/COLOR][/FONT]
I donââ¬â¢t think so. It is highly unusual anywhere in the world for a monotheist to convert back to polytheism. Ephemeral Wiccaesque nonsense may have blurred this overwhelming statistical fact in the eyes of many Westerners.
(Besides, traditional Chinese religions have bever been much into missionary work anyways, the whole concept is monotheistic)
[COLOR=Red][FONT=Arial][B][I] - ââ¬ÂYou seem to think that Christianity is some magical religion different from all others and not subject to the same rules as everything else in existence.ââ¬Â [/I] [/B] [/FONT] [/COLOR]
Like Tex already pointed out, [B]of course I do[/B]. And history backs me up as well, Christianity is quite an unique case among religions.
[COLOR=Red][FONT=Arial][B][I] - ââ¬ÂWell, believe that if it makes you happy, but the historical record is not your friend here.ââ¬Â[/I][/B][/FONT][/COLOR]
Historical record is very much my friend.
Walter Burkert, one of todayââ¬â¢s foremost experts on ancient polytheism, writes in his book ââ¬Â[I]Ancient Mystery Cults[/I]ââ¬Â (p. 53):
[COLOR=DarkRed][FONT=Trebuchet MS]ââ¬Â[B]The basic difference between ancient mysteries, on the one hand, and religious communities, sects, and churches of the Judeo-Christian type, on the other, is borne out by the verdict of history. Jewish, Christian, and Islamic sects have demonstrated astounding capacities of survival, even as minorities in a hostile environment. [/B] The Samaritans, split from Jewish orthodoxy, have survived in the world for about 2,400 years; the Mandaeans are about as old as Christianity; the Albigensian movement survived even the European Inquisition; countless sects have been active ever since the Reformation. Christian outposts in Ethiopia, Armenia, and Georgia are no less remarkable with this tenacious vitality.
ââ¬Â[B]It was quite different with the ancient mysteries, whether those of Eleusis, Bacchus, Meter, Isis, or even Mithras, the ââ¬Âinvincible God.ââ¬Â With the imperial decrees of 391/92 A.D. prohibiting all pagan cults and with the forceful destruction of the sanctuaries, the mysteries simply and suddenly disappeared.[/B] There is not much to be said for either the Masonsââ¬â¢ or modern witchesââ¬â¢ claim that they are perpetuating ancient mysteries through continuous tradition. (120) [B]Mysteries could not go underground because they lacked any lasting organization. They were not self-sufficient sects; they were intimately bound to the social system of antiquity that was to pass away.[/B] Nothing remained but a curiosity, which has in vain tried to resuscitate them.[/FONT][/COLOR]
Monotheistic religions are simply, Darwinistically speaking, more fit for survival than polytheistic cults. When pagan religions lose the backing of the state, they roll over and die more often than not, for they donââ¬â¢t know how to survive in the opposition.
This is one of the reasons why I find it so imperative for the White race to regain true Christianity; neo-paganism is simply not fit for a long-term survival.
Monotheistic religions are not nearly as dependent from the stateââ¬â¢s support, and I have indeed argued that one of the main reasons for Christianityââ¬â¢s decline in Europe has been due to its recent attachment to the modern state:
[url]http://www.originaldissent.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19351&highlight=scandinavia[/url]
[FONT=Arial][COLOR=Red][B][I] - ââ¬ÅIt would help your cause somewhat if you were not so consistently arrogant and dismissive of others.ââ¬Â[/I][/B][/COLOR][/FONT]
My arrogance is merely in the eye of the beholder (you, that is). You have actually bought into one form of [B]egalitarianism[/B] - that all religions are essentially equally viable. Theyââ¬â¢re not, not even in their secular effects on the society. You take offense when I donââ¬â¢t subscribe to this egalitarian fiction.
[FONT=Arial][COLOR=Red][B][I] - ââ¬ÂFacts are, there are large Christian communities in Korea, as well, and in Vietnam. These cultures follow the Chinese pattern. ââ¬Â[/I][/B][/COLOR][/FONT]
May we see some proof for this?
South Korea is indeed already about 25 % Christian, and according to Philip Jenkins (in his book ââ¬Â[I]The New Christendom[/I]ââ¬Â, p. 103), ââ¬ÂChristians outnumber Buddhists by ten or twenty to oneââ¬Â in the Korean-American community.
[COLOR=Red][FONT=Arial][B][I] - ââ¬ÂIn spite of large numbers of Christians, they still haven't changed the basic structure of these cultures.ââ¬Â[/I][/B][/FONT][/COLOR]
It is rather silly for you to say that they ââ¬Â[I]still[/I]ââ¬Â havenââ¬â¢t completely transformed their cultures since they are very recent phenomenons, and, after all, it took some centuries before Christianity began to really influence the behavior of Europeans as well.
Christians are well over-represented in the most active and industrious elements of these new ââ¬Âtiger economiesââ¬Â, and their influence is bound to increase.
[COLOR=Red][FONT=Arial][I][B] - ââ¬ÅAnd since they are unlikely ever to seize state power as Christianity managed to do in the Roman Empire, they will not be able to force their religion on everyone. As such, they will not be able to punish or prevent apostates, so after a period of growth, attitudes will evolve and change, other sects or cults or new religions or traditional beliefs will gain prominence, and Christians will leave for those religions, just as they formerly left other beliefs to join Christianity. It has happened before, is happening now, will probably happen again.ââ¬Â[/B][/I][/FONT][/COLOR]
I canââ¬â¢t help getting the impression that you are expressing [I]wishful thinking [/I] here. (Btw, Christians would have taken over the Roman Empire sooner or later, Constantine or no Constantine)
Once again your power-worshipping mentality comes forward - you donââ¬â¢t think that religion means anything unless it is backed by the state power.
Say what you will, but Judaism is not the state religion of Western countries today, but that has not prevented it from thoroughly influencing and transforming them. Many minority religions win in quality and commitment what they lose in sheer numbers.
Monotheistic religions simply have a much tighter grip onto their followers than polytheistic ones like Buddhism or Taoism, so your comparison of people hopping from one form of polytheism to another is fundamentally invalid.
Do you think that Indian Muslims are reverting back to Hinduism now that India is independent and the Muslim minority can no longer wield state power against potential apostates? On the contrary, Hindus are worrying how both Islam and Christianity are eroding their position, in spite of a militant Hindu party (BJP) holding the power:
[B][COLOR=Sienna]ââ¬ÅThe gross fact is that the Indian Religionists are quickly losing their share in the population of what is left of India; and the rate of their decline seems to have risen sharply during the current decade. In what constituted India before Partition, the decline now seems beyond repair; and in that larger Indian region **─ the region that just five decades ago used to be India ─ the Indian Religionists have lost more than 12 percentage points during 1881-2001, and they are almost certainly going to be reduced to a minority within the twenty-first century. ââ¬Â[/COLOR][/B]
[url]http://www.originaldissent.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18712&highlight=indian[/url]
Polytheists can easily convert to monotheism, but a monotheist converting back to polytheism is another case altogether - Julian the Apostate already found out how futile it is to try to reverse that process.
Petr
2005-08-01 21:45 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Angler]I've never understood why communist leaders fear religion so much, anyway [/QUOTE]During the great social revolutions in Europe that were spawned by the Enlightenment, the position was taken that Christianity (and by extension all religion) was the opposite of Reason. That position became embedded in Marxian theory, and later Marxian doctrine. It required the opposition of thesis (religion) and antithesis (region) with a synthesis that was a society presumed purged of religion.
Fear? Perhaps, if one fears an ideological enemy.
EDIT: PS Petr. Consider what you say here.
[QUOTE] You are wrong - there are more Muslims in China than ever before.
[/QUOTE] Is this perhaps a less than desirable condition for the nascent Christian movement in China today?
2005-08-01 21:50 | User Profile
[FONT=Trebuchet MS][B] - "During the great social revolutions in Europe that were spawned by the Enlightenment, the position was taken that Christianity (and by extension all religion) was the opposite of Reason. "[/B][/FONT]
A much more fundamental reason is that believer's ultimate allegience is due to God, and not to the allmighty state. Tyrants have never underestimated the importance of religion as an adversary, the Big Brother cannot sleep securely until Christianity has been either crushed or totally neutered.
Petr
2005-08-01 21:53 | User Profile
[FONT=Trebuchet MS][I][B] - "Is this perhaps a less than desirable condition for the nascent Christian movement in China today?"[/B][/I][/FONT]
Nah. They are not [B]that[/B] powerful, and there are many more Christians than Muslims in China.
Petr
2005-08-02 02:02 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Petr][FONT=Trebuchet MS][B] - "During the great social revolutions in Europe that were spawned by the Enlightenment, the position was taken that Christianity (and by extension all religion) was the opposite of Reason. "[/B][/FONT]
A much more fundamental reason is that believer's ultimate allegience is due to God, and not to the allmighty state. But this seems to tacitly assume that those who don't believe in God need some other form of higher authority, so they naturally choose the state. That's not the case. It's not a one-or-the-other, "either God or the state" scenario. One can always accept mastery of neither God nor state if he's unsure of God's existence.
Tyrants have never underestimated the importance of religion as an adversary, the Big Brother cannot sleep securely until Christianity has been either crushed or totally neutered.[/QUOTE]And yet many tyrants and would-be tyrants, from John Calvin to George Bush, have used Christianity to consolidate their grip on power. Others merely use it to steal money from suckers: e.g., Robert Tilton, Benny Hinn, Pat Robertson. That's not the fault of Christianity per se or of Christians in general, of course. It's just the way things are. If some other religion were bigger than Christianity in the West right now, it would also be taken advantage of by those with no conscience.
Christianity poses very little threat to tyrants' hold on power, since attempts to overthrow the government are forbidden by Paul. But Christianity could conceivably be a nuisance to those tyrants if they wish to recruit people to commit blatantly sinful acts such as mass murder. If you have two people who are loyal to a government, the one who's a genuine Christian will be more likely to disobey such an order.
I still maintain what I said earlier, though: The greatest threat to tyrants is posed by those who not only hate tyranny but also have no self-imposed restraints on their actions. People like me, for example. :biggrin: