← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · Bardamu
Thread ID: 19224 | Posts: 16 | Started: 2005-07-20
2005-07-20 01:32 | User Profile
[url]http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1121788913985_117198113/?hub=World[/url]
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/bardamu/zundel.jpg[/IMG]
BERLIN ââ¬â German prosecutors said Tuesday they have charged white supremacist Ernst Zundel with inciting racial hatred, four months after he was deported from Canada.
German authorities accuse Zundel of decades of anti-Semitic activities, including repeated denials of the Holocaust -- a crime in Germany -- in documents and on the Internet.
Zundel is "known internationally as a leader of the right-wing scene,'' prosecutors in the southwestern city of Mannheim said Tuesday in a statement listing 14 examples of alleged incitement.
It was unclear when he might face a trial, which Jewish leaders hope will spread awareness of the Holocaust.
Zundel was arrested in March on his arrival in Germany after a long legal battle, and remains in jail. He had been detained in Toronto since 2003 under anti-terrorism laws and deported after a Canadian judge ruled his activities a threat to national and international security.
The Canadian Jewish Congress said it was glad to hear Zundel had been charged, but said justice will not be served fully until he is convicted.
"Certainly we're very pleased that German prosecutors have charged Mr. Zundel,'' spokesman Len Rudner said from Toronto.
"But it's a successful prosecution that will go a long way to completing discrediting Ernst Zundel.''
Born in Germany in 1939, Zundel emigrated to Canada in 1958 and lived in Toronto and Montreal until 2001. Canadian officials rejected his attempts to obtain citizenship in 1966 and 1994.
He moved to Pigeon Forge, Tenn., until he was deported to Canada in 2003 for alleged immigration violations.
While Jewish groups in Canada hailed Zundel's deportation, some civil libertarians argued it was a crime against freedom of speech.
"Banning ideas -- even foolish ones -- is just never healthy,'' Paul Fromm, the president of the Canadian Association for Freedom of Expression, said Tuesday from Toronto after hearing of Zundel's charges.
"It's very disappointing and it's sad to see the German government has learned nothing about democracy.''
German prosecutors obtained an arrest warrant for Zundel in 2003. Because his Holocaust-denying website was available in Germany, he is considered to have been spreading his message to Germans.
2005-07-20 03:41 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Bardamu]German prosecutors obtained an arrest warrant for Zundel in 2003. Because his Holocaust-denying website was available in Germany, he is considered to have been spreading his message to Germans.[/QUOTE]Sounds like everyone here could be liable for prosecution in Germany.
2005-07-20 03:57 | User Profile
[QUOTE]Canadian officials rejected his attempts to obtain citizenship in 1966 and 1994.[/QUOTE] 1966 huh? That just goes to show how screwed up the Canadian government is. They'd rather pass out citizenship to a third worlder and even terrorists than to give it to this man. I doubt he was real active on this in 1966. [QUOTE]Sounds like everyone here could be liable for prosecution in Germany.[/QUOTE] Damn near sounds like it, save that Zundel is still a German citizen.
2005-07-20 08:09 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Sertorius]Damn near sounds like it, save that Zundel is still a German citizen.[/QUOTE]I doubt there law is any different than ours. Remember, anyone that commits a crime within our jurisdiction, i.e. the territory of the U.S., is subject to arrest and prosecution by our government if he's on U.S. soil. It doesn't matter if he's a U.S. citizen or not. If posting things on the internet that go against German law were illegal for Zundel, they're illegal for us.Only difference is the German gov't doesn't try to extradite everybody in the world to Germany. If you're in Germany though, its a different story.
In fact, this reminds me, I remember reading of cases where U.S. citizens who had crossed paths with similar German laws and got the attention of German authoritieswere extradited to Germany from other EEU countries (specifically Denmark ). The EEU now has pretty automatic extradition rights within member countries, almost like between U.S. states I think. The only difference being a U.S. citizen makes is that you have a right to file a protest with the American consulate before you are extradited, and our government can protest, usually successfully if it feels like it.
I remember in the Denmark case however our government waived its right to protest. It said the Germans could have him. I suspect that's general policy in the case of un P.C. people now. So really its not just Germany, its at least the entire EEU.
Another of the reasons I'm not big on foreign travel now. Especially since if I'm going to go to the trouble to go to another country, I think I would like to be able to do more than take pictures of Big Ben or sip daquiri's on the Riviera. I'd like to go to some meetings of sorts. However, this is also a good way I'd think to get you on a watch list.
2005-07-20 11:05 | User Profile
The Canadian Jewish Congress said it was glad to hear Zundel had been charged, but said justice will not be served fully until he is convicted. How is "justice served" by jailing someone for political speech?
Disgusting Jewish vermin. :furious:
"Banning ideas -- even foolish ones -- is just never healthy,'' Paul Fromm, the president of the Canadian Association for Freedom of Expression, said Tuesday from Toronto after hearing of Zundel's charges.
"It's very disappointing and it's sad to see the German government has learned nothing about democracy.'' Germany is simply not a free country. It is tyrannical. I wish its citizens would rise up against their government and take back their rights.
2005-07-20 11:30 | User Profile
[QUOTE]Germany is simply not a free country. It is tyrannical. I wish its citizens would rise up against their government and take back their rights.[/QUOTE]
They tried that once already, and Okie's [I]still [/I] very upset about it.
2005-07-20 11:47 | User Profile
Okie,
What US citizen has been extradicted to Germany for simply running a website? I seem to recall that when this was tried they couldn't do it for the First Amendment. Come to think of it, Irving lives in Britian and while he can't go to Germany he still writes.
2005-07-20 12:31 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Sertorius]Okie,
What US citizen has been extradicted to Germany for simply running a website? I seem to recall that when this was tried they couldn't do it for the First Amendment. Come to think of it, Irving lives in Britian and while he can't go to Germany he still writes.[/QUOTE]
Firstly wouldn't you say Zundel himself? He wasn't technically a citizen or permanent resident yet, but if it was anybody else they would have protected him as one. He was as close as you can get without being one - almost as if he was snatched up while signing the last papers just before he dotted the "i"s. I was thinking though of a U.S. citizen who, like I said, was extradited from Denmark. Now they couldn't do it from the U.S. obviously, at least as it stands now - U.S. courts would have jurisdiction and could be successfully appealed to.
Within the EEU I don't know exactly why some people are targeted for extradition from some countries to Germany and some aren't. You'd have to be familar with EEU and German politics I suppose.
I get the rough impression that Germany targets those who have close ties with its nationalist groups specifically, and leaves others alone, at least for now. Of course this is the EEU and things definitely change there.
I'm not sure BTW why Germany maintains such a tough position. I suspect though that the matter came up with regard to the settling of the holocaust suits. Remember the Holocaust lobby wanted to sue practically every German company with operations in the U.S. (which means all the big ones practically,) for umpteen billion dollars.
The settlement agreement must have been highly political, and I'm sure Germany's "good faith" as shown by its tough laws, was part of the discussion.
Wouldn't be the first time German industrialists have sold out democracy.
2005-07-20 12:41 | User Profile
[QUOTE]Wouldn't be the first time German industrialists have sold out democracy.[/QUOTE]
Democracy is not a natural state for Germany or any other European country.
Europe has suffered under tyrants, it's true. But they never began committing suicide until 'democracy' arrived.
2005-07-20 18:24 | User Profile
Democracy is not a natural state for Germany or any other European country.
That depends on what you mean by democracy. Real democracy -- organic self-government by the people (that's "people" singular, not plural) -- is a Germanic concept. Or at least that's what legal scholars and historians say. Our "modern" atomistic and mechanistic system of government grew out of "antique" Roman roots.
See Otto von Gierke's "Political Theories of the Middle Age", introduced and translated by F.W. Maitland.
A quote from Paul Johnson's "A History of Christianity" provides some idea of Gierke's perspective and the organic, democratic community:
[QUOTE]One of the great tragedies of human history - and the central tragedy of Christianity - is the break-up of the harmonious world-order which had evolved, in the Dark Ages, on a Christian basis. Men had agreed, or at least had appeared to agreee, on an all-enveloping theory of society which not only aligned virtue with law and practice, but allotted to everyone in it precise, Christian-oriented tasks. There need be no arguments or divisions because everyone endorsed the principles on which the system was run. They had to. Membership of the society, and the acceptance of its rules, was ensured by baptism, which was compulsory and irrevocable. The unbaptized, that is the Jews, were not members of the society at all; their lives were spared but otherwise they had no rights. Those who, in effect, renounced their baptism by infidelity or heresy, were killed. For the remainder, there was total agreement and total commitment. The points on which men argued were slender, compared to the huge areas of complete acquiescence which embraced almost every aspect of their lives.[/QUOTE]What is described here (regardless of whether it was as close to perfect as Johnson makes it out to have been) is something that was idealized by Germans (like Gierke and, more recently, Hans-Hermann Hoppe) and recognized as German by legal historians like the Englishman Maitland. The evolutionary foundations are discussed by David Sloan Wilson. (See my signature.)
This sort of "hierarchic harmony" (in MacDonald's words) is what we're shooting for. Right, Walter?
2005-07-20 22:45 | User Profile
Obviously, I am not referring to this "real" democracy (which exists nowhere in the "real" world at present) but the modern, denatured Israeli-American kind (in place throughout the West and now being forced down the throats of everyone else)
2005-07-21 16:08 | User Profile
[QUOTE]"Banning ideas -- even foolish ones -- is just never healthy,'' Paul Fromm, the president of the Canadian Association for Freedom of Expression, said Tuesday from Toronto after hearing of Zundel's charges.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]Germany is simply not a free country. It is tyrannical. I wish its citizens would rise up against their government and take back their rights.[/QUOTE]
I disagree. Germany is every bit as free as the US or Canada for that matter. A little more socialist given the tax structure, but still free. The only difference is the [I][B]degree[/B][/I] of political correctness and its overarching effect on free speech. Both Canada and Germany have taken the "hate speech" laws to draconian extreme's. In Germany the hot button is obvious, in Canada they are throwing Ministers in jail for quoting bible verses which condemn "Homosexual Lifestyles". But fear not the US is lot lagging behind by much. Soon you too can go to jail for "incorrect" opinions.
2005-07-26 16:26 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Okiereddust]Sounds like everyone here could be liable for prosecution in Germany.[/QUOTE] This is what Zionists would like to have for the US. Besides, Jews have been receiving a pension from the German Government since the 1950's as a type of reparations. They aren't about to permit this gravy train stopping prematurely. I suspect the children of the WW2 era Jews are trying to find ways to justify receiving payments as well.
2005-07-26 18:53 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Sertorius]Okie,
What US citizen has been extradicted to Germany for simply running a website? I seem to recall that when this was tried they couldn't do it for the First Amendment. Come to think of it, Irving lives in Britian and while he can't go to Germany he still writes.[/QUOTE] There was an American citizen, lives in Nebraska I think, Gary Lauck, who was seized in Denmark and extradited to Germany and served time in jail for his activities in America, publishing lNational Socialist material that was aimed at Germans in Germany:
[url]http://www.nazi-lauck-nsdapao.com/lauck-kidnapping-brief-account.htm[/url]
Then there was the Australian, Fredrick Toben, convicted in Germany for material he published on the Australian based website of the Adelaide Institute:
[url]http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v18/v18n4p-2_Toben.html[/url]
Then there is the case of Zundel himself, he'll be convicted (there is absolutely no doubt about this; the conviction is political and is a foregone conclusion) for his activities in Canada and USA; the fact that he is a German citizen is irrelevent. If they can arrest and convict American and Australian citizens, they can do it to Germans or anyone.
2005-07-26 19:00 | User Profile
[QUOTE]There was an American citizen, lives in Nebraska I think, Gary Lauck[/QUOTE]The most outrageous thing about his ordeal is that, back in the States, he was subsequently denied a gun permit application as a convicted felon, even though the "crime" was perfectly legal in the U.S.
2005-07-26 19:35 | User Profile
[QUOTE=mwdallas]The most outrageous thing about his ordeal is that, back in the States, he was subsequently denied a gun permit application as a convicted felon, even though the "crime" was perfectly legal in the U.S.[/QUOTE] Good point, I had forgotten about that.
More evidence that Lauck was the victim of a double or triple teamup by the governments of USA, Germany and Denmark.
We need to remember that the US government can't be relied on to protect us when it is in its interests: remember the Tyler Kent case. Roosevelt administration waived his diplomatic status so the British could jail him and thus hush up the fact that he had discovered that FDR and Churchill were secretly plotting together to get the US into the war.