← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · Petr
Thread ID: 19212 | Posts: 20 | Started: 2005-07-19
2005-07-19 14:49 | User Profile
I am currently reading this book on the medieval culture by a Jew Norman Cantor. His writing style doesn't seem to be obnoxiously Judeocentric.
He is a "mainstream" scholar, not any fringe type, and I found this claim of his rather intriguing. Did majority of Spanish Jews indeed assimilate into the Spanish society?
[B][I]The Civilization Of The Middle Ages[/I][/B] (1993, HarperCollins), by Norman F. Cantor, pp. 371-372:
[COLOR=Blue][FONT=Arial]"[B]At the same time, there was a growing trend toward the assimilation of Jews into the Latin Christian culture and aristocratic society, with a mass apostasy to the Christian faith in the late fourteenth and early fifteenth centuries[/B], when a hostile environment for Spanish Jews developed that was even worse than they experienced in the twelfth century, the last era of Moslem rule. Part of the hostility was popular and spontaneous, arising from the jealousy of the affluent condition of the Jewish community among all classes in the Christian society. Part of it came from a rigorous effort by the late medieval Spanish state to to exercise tight, unified control over the society.
"[B]By the time Judaism was proscribed in the Iberian peninsula - in Spain in 1492 and in Portugal in 1497 - the great majority of Jewish families had already converted[/B]. Their conversion improved their legal and judicial status and enhanced their business and governmental opportunities, but it aroused a new wave of hatred based on racism more than on religion. Increasingly historians believe that the claim by the Spanish Inquisition around 1500 that the Jewish New Christians (Marranos) were secretly practising their old religion was mostly untrue. [B]Most of the Sefardic Jews became normal Christians in the fifteenth century, and [U]today, one third of the modern Spanish nobility is descended from Jewish converts[/U][/B]. The flowering of Spanish literature, Biblical learning and philosophy in the early sixteenth century owes much to these Jewish New Christians."[/FONT][/COLOR]
This would indicate that most of those Marranoes who really wanted to cling onto their old religion emigrated out of Spain (and once they reached their new host countries, like Netherlands, they often re-adopted Judaism immediately), while those who remained behind slowly assimilated...
Too bad that Cantor's book has no footnotes, I'd like to see this statistic confirmed somewhere.
In the early sixteenth century Europe, it was apparently a rather common stereotype that Spaniards had a good amount of Marrano ancestry - it appears both in the autobiography of a Renaissance silversmith Benvenuto Cellini and in the table-talks of Martin Luther:
[COLOR=DarkGreen][FONT=Georgia]"While I was carrying on this debate in my own mind, a crowd of Spaniards arrived, led by their major-domo, who, with the headstrong rashness of his race, bade them go in and take the vase and give me a good beating. Hearing these words, I showed them the muzzle of my gun, and prepared to fire, and cried in a loud voice: [B][U]Renegade Jews[/U], traitors, is it thus that one breaks into houses and shops in our city of Rome?[/B] ... The commotion we were making stirred up all the neighbours, who came crowding round, together with some Roman gentlemen who chanced to pass, and cried: Do but kill [U]the renegades[/U], and we will stand by you. "[/FONT][/COLOR]
[url]http://www.blackmask.com/books62c/7cllndex.htm[/url]
[COLOR=DarkRed][FONT=Book Antiqua]Luther heard that the emperor Charles had sent into Austria eighteen thousand Spaniards against the Turk. Whereupon he sighed, and said: `Tis a sign of the last day when those cruel nations, the Spaniards and Turks, are to be our masters: I would rather have the Turks for enemies than the Spaniards for protectors; for, [B]barbarous tyrants as they are, [U]most [/U] [U]of the Spaniards are half Moors, half Jews[/U], fellows who believe nothing at all.[/B][/FONT][/COLOR]
[url]http://www.reformed.org/documents/Table_talk/table_talk_8.html#Heading46[/url]
Famous sixteenth-century nun visionary (St.) Teresa of Avila's family was apparently at least partly of Jewish origin:
[FONT=Georgia][COLOR=Purple]"The most significant fact of Teresa of Avila's background was successfully hidden, by herself and her supporters, from her own lifetime until 1947. In that year the publication of a contemporary lawsuit brought the secret to light. [B]Teresa's grandfather, Juan Sanchez, had been punished by the Inquisition as a Secret Jew[/B]. Did Teresa consider herself Jewish? There are people in Spain today with less Jewish blood than she had who do. Nor is it unusual for a Marrano to wind up a nun; there is an old Marrano tradition that one member of every generation should enter religious life, in the hope that their influence might protect the family. "[/COLOR][/FONT]
[url]http://www.mcs.drexel.edu/~gbrandal/Illum_html/Teresa.html[/url]
Petr
2005-07-19 16:09 | User Profile
Well I do have Spanish blood so where is my cut? I mean if I am supposed to be also Jewish I want my share of all that money that "WE" have taken from the world.......sorry guys, I'd better wash my hands after typing the above.
2005-07-19 18:53 | User Profile
[url]http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/7016/Jews2.htm#G[/url]
The above index contains those of Spanish surnames who lapsed into Judaism. If your name appears here, it does not mean you have Jewish ancestry, but at the same time it doesn't eliminate the fact either.
2005-07-19 21:08 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Ron][url]http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/7016/Jews2.htm#G[/url]
The above index contains those of Spanish surnames who lapsed into Judaism. If your name appears here, it does not mean you have Jewish ancestry, but at the same time it doesn't eliminate the fact either.[/QUOTE]
Wll I better get myself a bennie cap, my name is in the hit list.....my bennie cap will be made of steel and that way it wont hurt so much when I bang my head against a "holy" wall.
I'd better have a talk with my old man.
Ron? nawwwwww better say nothing.
2005-07-19 21:11 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Ponce]Well I do have Spanish blood so where is my cut? [/QUOTE] Call your doctor and your local rabbi to schedule your ritual circumcision, and you will get your [u]cut[/u]. :lol:
2005-07-19 21:12 | User Profile
Yes this is true. Just goes to show that Jews are not "a race," as people like to say, they are an ethnic community but still just a community. People leave this community and people join this community, but the ethnic elements are pretty strong. Still not a race though.
Funny how I know some guy who prides himself more on Mein Kampf orthodoxy than on factual accuracy is going to come on here and try to tell me I'm wrong. Well in advance, I'm not. :)
2005-07-19 22:38 | User Profile
Jews work their way to the top of any society they live in. Their superior intellect and cohesiveness makes it inevitable. It's especially easy in countries where the natives have features similar to theirs. I would almost bank on it that these "assimilated" Jews are very loyal to organized Jewry.
2005-07-20 01:10 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Petr]I am currently reading this book on the medieval culture by a Jew Norman Cantor. His writing style doesn't seem to be obnoxiously Judeocentric.
He is a "mainstream" scholar, not any fringe type, and I found this claim of his rather intriguing. Did majority of Spanish Jews indeed assimilate into the Spanish society? [/QUOTE]We've had a number of discusions on this topic before here I recall. The path these Marranos took was complex. One thread discussed a library in Denver devoted to New World Marranos. And of course The Skunk was a big fan of the theory Castro was a Marrano.
It could be true that some of the jews assimilated into Spain, though they normally strongly resist assimilation, as the inquisition was so long and vicuous. I've never heard this topic discussed much, but its obviously a sensitive one.
The Iberian peninisula people's in general were long considered by and considered Europe as something quite distinct. And there are a lot of storirs I've always heard about how the Spanish owed so much of their culture to "African" influences. Maybe the sephardic jew Marranos are just considered part of this polyglot mix.
One thing I'm a little curious about actually, is how this Marranos factor figures into the often tempetuous civil wars and struggles within the hispanic world. Its never something we have understood well here. Reading various bits and pieces though you get the impresion though they are very well acquainted with various anecdotal stories and theories about jews and the jews, even though supposedly there were almost no above ground jews left in Spain after the exoduses. Like a lot of the racial references in theHispanic world there seems to be some very cryptic and hard to understand categorizations for the Anglo mind.
2005-07-20 02:59 | User Profile
[QUOTE=kane123123]Yes this is true. Just goes to show that Jews are not "a race," as people like to say, they are an ethnic community but still just a community. People leave this community and people join this community, but the ethnic elements are pretty strong. Still not a race though.
Funny how I know some guy who prides himself more on Mein Kampf orthodoxy than on factual accuracy is going to come on here and try to tell me I'm wrong. Well in advance, I'm not. :)[/QUOTE]
How do people who are allegedly 'not a race' [i.e. Jews] get lots of different genetic diseases?
Do ethnic groups [e.g. the Irish] get lots of genetic diseases? Not that I have ever heard. Are there "Irish" diseases? Not that I have ever heard of.
Ethnic groups don't get genetic diseases. Races do.
Jews are a hybrid race.
2005-07-20 03:01 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Okiereddust]We've had a number of discusions on this topic before here I recall. The path these Marranos took was complex. One thread discussed a library in Denver devoted to New World Marranos. And of course The Skunk was a big fan of the theory Castro was a Marrano.
It could be true that some of the jews assimilated into Spain, though they normally strongly resist assimilation, as the inquisition was so long and vicuous. I've never heard this topic discussed much, but its obviously a sensitive one.
The Iberian peninisula people's in general were long considered by and considered Europe as something quite distinct. And there are a lot of storirs I've always heard about how the Spanish owed so much of their culture to "African" influences. Maybe the sephardic jew Marranos are just considered part of this polyglot mix.
One thing I'm a little curious about actually, is how this Marranos factor figures into the often tempetuous civil wars and struggles within the hispanic world. Its never something we have understood well here. Reading various bits and pieces though you get the impresion though they are very well acquainted with various anecdotal stories and theories about jews and the jews, even though supposedly there were almost no above ground jews left in Spain after the exoduses. Like a lot of the racial references in theHispanic world there seems to be some very cryptic and hard to understand categorizations for the Anglo mind.[/QUOTE]
Fidel Castro does have Marrano roots.
2005-07-20 03:07 | User Profile
If they are not a race why do they refer to others as "half-Jewish" and "quarter-Jewish"?
How many people do you know who are "half-Christian" or "half-Muslim"?
No one even says "I had Muslim ancestors" or "I had Christian ancestors" either.
Regardless of what they are, they *identify * as a race and know it.
"I am not an American citizen of Jewish faith. I am a Jew. I have been an American for sixty-three years, but I have been a Jew for 4000 years." - Rabbi Stephen S. Wise (1933)
"Let us recognize that we Jews are a distinct nationality of which every Jew, whatever his country, his station, or shade of belief, is necessarily a member." - Louis Brandeis, U.S. Supreme Ct. Justice
2005-07-20 03:24 | User Profile
Travis? that's why many Jewish wome are looking for Goys for mating, the problem is that many Jewish men suffers from something called "The Bloom Disorder" this shows as follows: Short stature Immun defiency photo senstivity diabetes melliyus male sterlity
I believe that this applies only to the real Jews because they used to (or maybe still doing it) interbreed among themselves like uncles with nieces and so on and that's one of the reasons as to why Jews (non Khazards) look so much alike.
Jewish women suffers of a certain kind of breast cancer that Goys women don't have.
2005-07-20 10:20 | User Profile
Okiereddust,
[QUOTE]"We've had a number of discusions on this topic before here I recall."[/QUOTE]
I think this topic is overdone by many. I have read a number of articles claim Franco's ancestry was Jewish.
2005-07-20 15:28 | User Profile
[QUOTE=travis]Jews work their way to the top of any society they live in. Their superior intellect and cohesiveness makes it inevitable. It's especially easy in countries where the natives have features similar to theirs. I would almost bank on it that these "assimilated" Jews are very loyal to organized Jewry.[/QUOTE]
The Jews aren't really that smart. There are some smart Jews which other Jews feed off and use as proof of their own particular superiority. If the Jews were as intelligent as they claim, they would have after 5,000 years, had taken over the world by this time.
2005-07-20 16:32 | User Profile
You got it Ron, like I posted a while back "the Jews works in concert with each others with the smart Jews helping the less smart Jews and that way they all look smart"
In unity there is force and that's something that the Goys should learn from those people and one reason why they are where they are at and that's something that I admire of them.
2005-07-20 16:48 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Ron]The Jews aren't really that smart. There are some smart Jews which other Jews feed off and use as proof of their own particular superiority. If the Jews were as intelligent as they claim, they would have after 5,000 years, had taken over the world by this time.[/QUOTE]
Jews dominate Western political and social discourse while being only about 2% of the West's total population. That meets my definition of "smart."
But I think I hear what you are saying.
Actually, the Jews are smart [with IQs roughly 10 to 15 points above gentile IQs], but in a different way than Whites. For example, Jews have a high verbal IQs.
2005-07-20 16:53 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Faust]Okiereddust,
I think this topic is overdone by many. I have read a number of articles claim Franco's ancestry was Jewish.[/QUOTE]
I personally have never seen any evidence that Francisco Franco had Jewish roots.
2005-07-23 11:55 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Faust]Okiereddust,
I think this topic is overdone by many. I have read a number of articles claim Franco's ancestry was Jewish.[/QUOTE] The Jews of Spain are Sephardic Jews and they do not share the same Socialist/Communist political ideas as Ashkenazic Jews. Jewish Communism came from Russia, not North Africa. What I'm saying is that Franco being a Sephardic Jew would actually be an irrelevant issue because he would still oppose the Ashkenazic quest for Communist World Revolution.
2005-07-23 15:09 | User Profile
[QUOTE=OttoR]The Jews of Spain are Sephardic Jews and they do not share the same Socialist/Communist political ideas as Ashkenazic Jews. Jewish Communism came from Russia, not North Africa. What I'm saying is that Franco being a Sephardic Jew would actually be an irrelevant issue because he would still oppose the Ashkenazic quest for Communist World Revolution.[/QUOTE] It's a lot more complicated than that. The Inquisition was not just discrimination of "poor victim" Jews, they were just like Jews everywhere else. There is no way of knowing how much Ashkenazim admixture the Jews of old Spain had, but their modus operandi was about the same as Jews everywhere else. Here is a book
[url]http://www.aaabooksearch.com/Book/SalesRanking/0815604599[/url]
titled "The Grandees: America's Sephardic Elite" which includes the Rockefeller family. Whether or not those mentioned were actually Sephardim and not Ashkenazi we will never know.
Although it seems apparent to most of us that the problematic Jews are the Ashkenazi ones, don't overlook other possibilities; there has been a lot of intermarriage between the two and it's convenient for Ashkenazim to call themselves Sepharic.
If the Sephardic Jews are the "good guys", it seems that with their acute knowledge of what the Ashkenazim are doing they would be exposing it.
2005-07-23 21:48 | User Profile
Any practicing Jew is dangerous no matter what the race and what the ethnicity. Even Jews like Jerry Springer who have the features of a white man are dangerous. It's a dangerous religion.