← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · Petr
Thread ID: 19182 | Posts: 34 | Started: 2005-07-17
2005-07-17 09:03 | User Profile
[url]http://www.forward.com/articles/3650[/url]
[FONT=Arial] [SIZE=5]Press Delights In Needling Peru President And His Wife[/SIZE]
[B]By TYLER BRIDGES July 15, 2005[/B]
LIMA, Peru ââ¬â Peruvian President Alejandro Toledo visited the provincial city of Cajamarca last month to hand out land titles to peasants. It was part of a successful initiative that gives poor Peruvians the keys to the property on which they have been squatting.
Not a word of this appeared the following day in El Comercio, Peru's establishment newspaper. Instead, coverage of the presidency that day focused on the latest dust-up involving Eliane Karp, the president's Jewish wife.
According to newspapers, when reporters pressed to interview Karp, her bodyguards pushed back and several fell backward.
When a report-er from another newspaper complained to Karp, El Comercio reported, she un-sympathetically responded: "What a shame! Are you going to cry? Well, cry then. You'll feel better."
Four years into his five-year term as president, Toledo admits that such attacks on him and his family still hurt.
"I didn't know the price I would pay would be so high," he told the Forward in an interview aboard the presidential jet as it winged him back to Lima recently. Still, he said, being president has "been a privilege. And I haven't finished yet."
Toledo is a strong United States ally who has presided over one of Latin America's most impressive economic rebounds of recent years. And yet he is perhaps Latin America's most unpopular president. One reason is the unrelentingly hostile press coverage that spotlights every mistake or pratfall by Toledo and Karp.
The press tends to ignore the highlights of trips abroad ââ¬â he visited China and Israel last month ââ¬â where he tends to receive star treatment as a rare voice of moderation and progressive pragmatism in a troubled region. In Israel last month, he was invited to address the Knesset. He's only the fourth world leader ever to do so, according to the Israeli Embassy in Peru. None of this has been reported at home.
To be sure, Toledo and Karp have made more than their share of errors. Toledo started off by accepting the highest salary of any Latin American president, later lowering it in the face of protests. For another, he long refused to acknowledge paternity of a teenager who was born while he and Karp were separated.
[B]Karp is an anthropologist and former bank executive who holds Belgian and Israeli citizenship. Raised in Paris, she settled in Israel after high school; she and Toledo met as graduate students at Stanford University in California in 1975. A polyglot who shuns the traditional demure role of first lady, she is quick to lash out when upset ââ¬â at reporters, Toledo's political opponents and even a one-time ally, Baruch Ivcher, the Israeli-born owner of a leading television network that has skewered the Toledos repeatedly.
These days, Karp rarely speaks to the press. Her popularity is even lower than Toledo's, which rose in a recent poll from 9% to 12%, prompting speculation about a possible rebound.[/B]
The constant attacks have taken their toll. Until recently, many observers were convinced Toledo would have to resign before his term ends.
The situation is being watched closely in Washington and other world capitals. Peru is the fourth most populous country in South America and is the linchpin of the turbulent Andean region. The presidents of nations to its immediate north and south, Ecuador and Bolivia, both have been forced out of office in the past three months. Nearby Colombia is plagued by right-wing paramilitaries allied to drug cartels, while Venezuela and Uruguay both have elected presidents identified with the left.
Speaking with the Forward last week, Toledo referred to his life story as he explained why he has proved the pundits wrong and plans to finish strong before he leaves office next year. He has overcome the odds throughout his life, he said. He grew up on a dirt street without running water or electricity, one of 16 children ââ¬â only nine of whom survived infancy. He was the first member of his family to finish high school, much less college. He is, he noted, the first democratically elected president from an Indian background in Peru's 500-year history.
"I'm a survivor and a winner," he said emphatically.
When asked whether his abysmal poll numbers suggested otherwise, he retorted: "That's a poor measure of a winner. I'm not a person who is playing short-term politics. I want to make a difference for my people despite the political price I have to pay in the short term."
He added that he could have gained popularity by sharply increasing public spending, as critics demanded. Instead, he has allowed only a moderate rise in spending while the economy has flourished.
[B]Karp is only one of several high-profile Jews close to Toledo. The president is known for peppering his private conversation with Yiddish words. At one point, he referred to a lawmaker whom he likes but finds exasperatingly independent as a "[I]meshuggener[/I]."
Toledo's Jewish circle also includes his vice president, David Waisman; his best friend, Adam Pollak, who immigrated to Peru 40 years ago from Romania; and his chief of security, Avi Dan, a former Israeli intelligence officer. All are subjects of frequent press comment.[/B]
Rabbi Guillermo Bronstein, who came to Peru 20 years ago from his native Argentina, said the country's Jewish community is encouraged that Jews can now hold more public roles. In a country of some 28 million people, Jews number only 3,000, barely one-hundredth of a percent.
But Bronstein added that the high profile has also prompted concern that the foibles of Jews close to Toledo ââ¬â real or not ââ¬â could cause a backlash for the Jewish community.
Bronstein noted that Waisman's propensity for shooting off his mouth has the press calling him "a clown," despite an image of honesty.
Pollak and Dan often receive negative coverage and are sometimes referred to in print as "Jews."
"Pollak is seen as working for his own interests, not for Peru," Bronstein said, adding that Pollak, who owns a dye-making business, is a warm friend. "I'm sure that Adam Pollak is not corrupt. But what matters is what people think of him."
[B][U]A right-wing nationalist newspaper claims, in Bronstein's words, that "Peru is being run by 'Chileans,' 'Peruvian traitors' and 'Jewish mercenaries.'"[/U]
"In Argentina," Bronstein added, "you can feel the antisemitism in the street. But the Peruvian people are not antisemitic. It's just that they feel like outsiders or strangers who have come to profit off of Peru are governing them. The Israeli framework around Toledo is one of the reasons for his low popularity."
The latest negative publicity followed the government's decision to release Lee Heifetz, a young Israeli tourist, less than halfway thru her sentence for attempting to smuggle cocaine in her luggage. Coverage in Peru's press suggested that 21-year-old Heifetz had received a favorable deal because her father is Israel's ambassador to Great Britain. Toledo and his justice minister denied favoritism, and no hard evidence has emerged to contradict them.[/B]
Toledo also had to deny suggestions that he had an affair with a 23-year-old former bodyguard who, as The Associated Press put it during the height of the media coverage, "posed on the cover of Peru's leading news magazine in a black sleeveless sweater and tight red jeans, with her midriff exposed and a 9 millimeter pistol drawn."
Lost in the media's focus on the missteps of Toledo and Karp is Peru's strong economic performance.
The economy has enjoyed 46 consecutive months of growth, a record unmatched in 50 years. Exports are at record levels, inflation is negligible, and so is the budget deficit.
The June trips to China and Israel should produce even more investment in Peru. In Israel, Toledo held separate meetings with President Moshe Katsav, Prime Minister Sharon, Labor Party heavyweight Matan Vilnai and 30 businessmen.
Toledo has steered a centrist political course as a reliable United States ally on a continent where anti-Americanism has been growing in the wake of the Iraq invasion.
Manuel Torrado, a Lima pollster, said that Toledo's recent rise in the polls stems from the economic gains and from his administration better publicizing its successes.
Still, "Toledo will be fortunate to end his term with a 20% approval rating," Torrado said.
The president, for his part, remains undaunted by the naysayers.
"History is written with deep ink after a period of time," he said aboard the presidential jet. "Let history judge me by the results and by the facts, whether they like my face or not."
[I]Tyler Bridges is a journalist in Lima. His fiancée, Cecilia Tait, is a member of Congress. She recently left Toledo's political party and is now a political independent.[/I][/FONT]
2005-07-17 10:21 | User Profile
Hmm. Stability; economic growth; inflation and deficits at managable levels. But a witch hunt is roiling anyway, because of a ballbusting wife and speculations on the whereabouts of the Presidential penis.
Now where have I heard that before?
Maybe Peru's next President will be a functional moron who talks to Jesus and says "strategery". Would serve 'em right.
2005-07-17 11:30 | User Profile
Are you expressing some sympathy towards Bill Clinton here, ragman? Do you think he was a subject of an unjustified "witch-hunt" and superior to Dubya just because the latter occasionally pretends to be a Christian?
E. Michael Jones has a nice piece on just what was at stake in the Lewinsky affair:
[COLOR=Sienna][FONT=Arial]"A world in which Bill Clinton is rewarded for lying, which is precisely the world we live in now, is not a world which will reward Demos for the same kind of behavior, because Demos is, as I said, ipso facto, not part of the ruling class. So once again, Demos gets it wrong. A world in which the ruler is rewarded for lying is a world in which his subjects can be punished for telling the truth. This is the lesson which Linda Tripp had to learn the hard way. [B]She and Monica Lewinsky are expendable, and if we allow the Clintons and the ruling class they represent to continue their transvaluation of all values, we will become expendable too.[/B] This is the lesson this country needs to learn, fast and before it is too late. The only protection the poor will ever have on this earth is the moral law, enculturated as the basis for the positive law. The only way a nation can guarantee rights is in light of that moral order, and any nation which subverts that moral order can only propose force, which is the rule of the rich and the powerful as its substitute."[/FONT][/COLOR]
[url]http://www.culturewars.com/CultureWars/Archives/cw_mar98/wolf.html[/url]
You seem to be even implying that Peruvians are treating that Jew-puppet Toledo unjustly - "[I]Would serve 'em right[/I]."
Petr
2005-07-17 12:32 | User Profile
Better the devil you know than the devil you don't, Petr. The interesting thing about stability and growth is that, as you're experiencing a bit of it, you suddenly have the luxury of nitpicking at bullshit like it was life-or-death. Take the food off people's tables and perspectives change.
Do you think he was.....superior to Dubya just because the latter occasionally pretends to be a Christian?
Better as a human being? As I don't personally know either one, that's hard to say. Comparing cokeheads to pussyhounds is tricky anyway. Is the adulterer who never gets caught nobler than the one who does? We just saw a national election that just about posited that the draft-dodger is more courageous than the guy who served and came to regret it.
About 'pretending to be a Christian' - c'mon, every last politician does it. They have to, or they'd never get a crack at the brass ring. Who would you feel more confidence in - an atheist who's honest about it, or a hypocrite who clothes himself in borrowed sanctimony?
Better as a President? Unquestionably. (That's not to say he was an exemplary, or even a good, President. But a damn sight better than Dubya.) I daresay the difference between me and most Christian Nationalists is that I just said it, where many of them will be content to privately think it.
I mean, it depends on one's feelings towards Apocalypse. If you yearn for it, then Bush is your man. If you subscribe to the first sentence of this post, then he's a disaster at best; and who-knows-what, at worst. Stay tuned.
2005-07-17 14:37 | User Profile
[COLOR=DarkGreen][FONT=Arial][B][I] - "Who would you feel more confidence in - an atheist who's honest about it, or a hypocrite who clothes himself in borrowed sanctimony?" [/I] [/B] [/FONT] [/COLOR]
Bill Clinton was not "honest about it" - he pretended to be a pious "social gospel" United Methodist (an utterly scummy liberal denomination).
[COLOR=Blue][I]"After President Clinton's confession at a White House breakfast in September 1998 that he had "sinned" in the Monica Lewinsky scandal, he has regularly met with at least one of three clerics--United Methodist Wogaman, evangelical Tony Campolo and writer Gordon MacDonald."[/I][/COLOR]
[url]http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1058/is_3_118/ai_70368710[/url]
[FONT=Arial][COLOR=DarkGreen][B][I] - "But a damn sight better than Dubya"[/I][/B][/COLOR][/FONT]
Clinton pandered full-time to Blacks, homosexuals and the whole leftist PC culture, saying that he was waiting for the day when Whites would be a minority in USA.
He ordered the bombing and mutilation of the ancient Christian nation of Serbia - at least Bush is bombing Muslims, and not people fighting against them!
All in all, Bush has made many short-attention-span people forget what a slimebucket Clinton really was.
Petr
2005-07-17 14:52 | User Profile
"Who would you feel more confidence in - an atheist who's honest about it, or a hypocrite who clothes himself in borrowed sanctimony?"
It was a hypothetical question, not a Clinton-specific one.
"Clinton pandered full-time to Blacks, homosexuals and the whole leftist PC culture, saying that he was waiting for the day when Whites would be a minority in USA"
And Bush is making it happen, full speed ahead.
"He ordered the bombing and mutilation of the ancient Christian nation of Serbia - at least Bush is bombing Muslims, and not people fighting against them!"
Bush and the PNAC doctrine is responsible for the deaths of thousands of Americans without lifting a finger to reverse the tide of immigration, here or in Europe. Furthermore, he has done everything in his power to shift the culpability for individual acts of terrorism from Saudi Arabia to Iraq, who are not players of the Wahhabi game.
And his partnership with the Likudniks in and out of Israel speaks for itself, far louder than Toledo could ever hope to.
Game, set, match. Stick to what you do best, Petr; this is more Gabby's speed than yours.
2005-07-17 15:05 | User Profile
[FONT=Arial][COLOR=Sienna][B][I] - "Bush and the PNAC doctrine is responsible for the deaths of thousands of Americans without lifting a finger to reverse the tide of immigration, here or in Europe." [/I] [/B] [/COLOR] [/FONT]
Frankly the plight of Serbians touches me more than the plight of New Yorkers.
[FONT=Arial][COLOR=Sienna][B][I] - "Game, set, match. Stick to what you do best, Petr; this is more Gabby's speed than yours."[/I][/B][/COLOR][/FONT]
Spare me from this Rainaesque posturing.
Petr
2005-07-17 15:06 | User Profile
It doesn't matter whether it is [I]George W. Clinton or William Jefferson Bush[/I]. They are both multicultists loving warmongering pigs. I hold that they are equally bad when it comes to the things I regard as important. For all practical purpose there wasn't an election in 2000, just a continuence of the same b.s. policies.
2005-07-17 15:07 | User Profile
Amen, Sertorius. Can we now return to the subject of this thread?
Petr
2005-07-17 15:08 | User Profile
Yes, the article sounds like the Jews have found another country to loot.
2005-07-17 16:19 | User Profile
[B]Wonder to what degree the Berenson case influences Public Opinion in Lima?[/B]
Who is Lori Berenson?
Lori Berenson is a social activist who was born in New York but has spent her adult life in Central and South America.
Lori Berenson is a firm believer in the need to work for a better world for all, for a world in which everyone's fundamental human rights are respected.
Lori Berenson's love for the Latin American countries and cultures goes beyond an interest in customs or folklore. She believes that the cultural wealth of these countries should not just be seen from a tour guide's perspective but be taken into account in the construction of a new and better society respecting the national pride and dignity of all peoples that have been considered "conquered" over the centuries.
Lori Berenson has participated in research and investigation work as well as having done secretarial, translating, writing, and editorial work. Upon detention she was writing articles for two progressive US magazines.
On November 30, 1995 Lori Berenson was arrested on a public bus in downtown Lima, accused of leading an insurgent organization, the MRTA. A hooded military tribunal, using antiterrorism legislation promulgated during a state of emergency, sentenced her to life for "treason against the fatherland." Four-and-a half years later, due to international pressure, her sentence was vacated and she was retried by a civilian court under the same antiterrorism legislation. She presently is serving a 20-year sentence for collaboration.
In April 2002, the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights declared that Lori Berenson was tried twice under illegal anti-terrorism laws that failed to comply with international standards and violated her rights to due process. The Commission further declared that Perú failed to demonstrate proof in its conviction of Lori Berenson and ruled that her rights be fully restored and that Perú must completely amend its illegal anti-terrorism laws. Because Perú refused to comply with the Commission's recommendations, the Commission brought Lori Berenson's case questioning the antiterrorism legislation before the Inter-American Court of Human Rights where it now awaits decision.
Lori Berenson continues to express her concerns for social justice and for human rights from her prison cell. She has repeatedly pointed out that trials denying due process and wrongful convictions under the illegal anti-terrorism laws cited above are far from unusual in Perú and thousands of people have been affected. In that manner, her case is far from exceptional. In Lori Berenson's case, there were numerous due process and human rights abuses and irregularities noted during her detention, two trials and incarceration. Lori Berenson was subjected to abusive treatment, termed "cruel, inhumane, and degrading" by several human rights organizations, but the physical and psychological abuses suffered by many others have been much worse. As in Lori Berenson's case, thousands of people condemned under these illegal anti-terrorism laws were, and are, innocent of the charges or were given disproportionately high sentences and worse, almost all have been brutally mistreated or savagely tortured during their detention and even in the jails, not just to try to obtain information or to force self-incrimination, but as part of a state policy of hatred and revenge against the insurgents. Lori Berenson specifically asked that her Website note this in an effort to give due respect to, and dignify, the voice and human rights of those people.
[url]http://www.freelori.org/whoislori.html[/url]
2005-07-17 16:23 | User Profile
[QUOTE=il ragno]Hmm. Stability; economic growth; inflation and deficits at managable levels. But a witch hunt is roiling anyway, because of a ballbusting wife and speculations on the whereabouts of the Presidential penis.
Now where have I heard that before?
Maybe Peru's next President will be a functional moron who talks to Jesus and says "strategery". Would serve 'em right.[/QUOTE]
Dittoes, 'Rachnid. I miss Slick Willie...
[img]http://vn.kominet.ru:8101/Pic/bush-chimp.jpg[/img]
2005-07-17 16:37 | User Profile
[QUOTE]Frankly the plight of Serbians touches me more than the plight of New Yorkers[/QUOTE]
Men lost wives, women lost husbands, children lost fathers and mothers. People were on fire and leaping out 110th floor windows to their deaths; firemen had thousands of tons of metal slag collapse ontheir heads as they ran up stairs attempting to save lives. Who ordained YOU to determine a pecking order of human suffering? Who claimed one was 'holier' than the other?
* you, your plaster saints *and your disgusting looka-me sanctimony, you ignominious "Christian" scumbag. I wipe morality like yours off the bottom of my shoe every time I step in dogshit, you Finnish fraud.
2005-07-17 16:44 | User Profile
[QUOTE=il ragno]Men lost wives, women lost husbands, children lost fathers and mothers. People were on fire and leaping out 110th floor windows to their deaths; firemen had thousands of tons of metal slag collapse ontheir heads as they ran up stairs attempting to save lives. Who ordained YOU to determine a pecking order of human suffering? Who claimed one was 'holier' than the other?
* you, your plaster saints *and your disgusting looka-me sanctimony, you ignominious "Christian" scumbag. I wipe morality like yours off the bottom of my shoe every time I step in dogshit, you Finnish fraud.[/QUOTE]
You didn't show much consideration to the rape of Serbia either. I may have expressed myself a bit too bluntly, but frankly you seem to possess a character that brings out my uglier side.
(And if you [I]really[/I] believed that it's revolting to "determine a pecking order of human suffering", you would be just as horrified at the sufferings of Rwandans as you were of New Yorkers, you big egalitarian you. So spare me from your [I]own[/I] selective [B]moral indignation[/B].)
Petr
2005-07-17 16:55 | User Profile
I in no way made light of, or discounted the suffering of the needless and disgusting bombing of Serbians.
And I stand by everything I said to you. You have a scolding word and pointing finger for everyone and everything in this world yet I've never seen an indication that you do - or even can - interact with other humans except to rant your nauseating ultrafundamentalist Godspew at them. Come down off your pulpit and mingle among the groundlings, Petr. At least then you'll have some vague idea of how the filthy sinners you judge so readily and so often do somethiing called "live".
2005-07-17 17:00 | User Profile
Reading this and several other threads lately, It is painfully obvious that Whites will never band together and save their collective arses from the problems that are about to overwhelm our nations.
We seem to be way to quick to slap leather & ventilate the first person who disagrees with anything we believe in. And I confess to being guilty of this myself.
Perhaps this is inevitable when strong personalities meet in the arena of political discourse.
2005-07-17 19:53 | User Profile
[FONT=Arial][COLOR=Purple][B][I] - "At least then you'll have some vague idea of how the filthy sinners you judge so readily and so often do somethiing called "live"."[/I][/B][/COLOR][/FONT]
You are yourself continually using condescending and de-humanizing language about believers, as if we were something less than fully human, or some retarded children - "not really alive," "holier-than-thous" etc.
You may not even notice this (like when you refer to Jesus Christ as "Jeboo"), since you probably consider serious Bible-believers to be so much below your status that their feelings need not to be respected.
Petr
2005-07-17 20:27 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Blond Knight]Reading this and several other threads lately, It is painfully obvious that Whites will never band together and save their collective arses from the problems that are about to overwhelm our nations. [/QUOTE] It's just that in whites "sticking together with and for your kin" is often overriden by silliness like you've seen. Even primitive cultures have that. That may be a plus when building a great fair just society outside the parasite-infestation context, but it quickly becomes a loser when our countries are invaded by lower forms of life exploiting our weaknesses, while reapinig the rewards of living in such a society (good infrasctructure and opportunities).
2005-07-17 21:12 | User Profile
You are yourself continually using condescending and de-humanizing language about believers, as if we were something less than fully human, or some retarded children ...
Look again, Petr. I'm directing my ire at you; nobody else. And this "you hate Christians" act is getting old. About as tired as Wintermute's shrill accusations that I'm "selling out" to the fundamentalist loonies because I refuse to condemn Christianity or deny the concerted attacks against the faith in the West these days. The fact of the matter is you're both half-right.
See the quote marks around Christian in my earlier comment? That's my sly way of reminding you that your sort of True Believer - harsher-than-thou, and as arrogantly presumptious of being second only in infallibility to God Himself as any face-painted, grass-skirted high priest in primitive culture - represents a tiny minority even among the Christian community, most of whom would rightfully shun you in horror.
Of course, that's because everybody else is wrong and you are right. Amazing how that's always the way, isn't it? I'm sure you've labored under the great weight of this "gift" all your life.
2005-07-18 03:57 | User Profile
[COLOR=Sienna][FONT=Arial][B][I] - "Look again, Petr. I'm directing my ire at you; nobody else."[/I][/B][/FONT][/COLOR]
You have been gnawing on Walter Yannis and Okie as well. In fact, you have given the general impression that you'd almost prefer non-Christian, non-WN Whites to Christian WNs, and jumped into action every time someone has said something less than complimentary about homosexuals.
Petr
2005-07-18 04:08 | User Profile
You hardly make sense, Petro. Do you believe the stuff that you are writing, or do you have visions? :yawn:
2005-07-18 04:26 | User Profile
Petr, is there anyone who meets you in real life who doesn't immediately want to punch you in the face?
I thought Christians were duty-bound to widen the tent and evangelize the faith; not work security at the door and make sure nobody gets inside. What exactly [u]is[/u] the difference between you and a Wahhabi imam, besides purely cosmetic ones?
2005-07-18 07:51 | User Profile
[FONT=Arial][COLOR=DarkGreen][B][I] - "Do you believe the stuff that you are writing, or do you have visions?"[/I][/B][/COLOR][/FONT]
I [I]always [/I] try to write precisely as I believe things to be. I despise insincerity and postmodern play-acting.
Otherwise, your comments are as usual - dull as a day of rain.
Petr
2005-07-18 08:01 | User Profile
[COLOR=Sienna][FONT=Courier New][B][I] - "Petr, is there anyone who meets you in real life who doesn't immediately want to punch you in the face?"[/I][/B][/FONT][/COLOR]
Don't project your own feelings to everyone else, it's acommon mistake made by those with an oversized ego. (and what is this "real life" that always keep talking about?)
[FONT=Courier New][COLOR=Sienna][B][I]- "I thought Christians were duty-bound to widen the tent and evangelize the faith;"[/I][/B][/COLOR][/FONT]
Not at the expense of the purity of doctrine - and when have [B]you [/B] ever shown interest of joining the faith? You seem to have associated so much with PC mainstream "churchians" that you are baffled when you meet Christians who actually believe what they say and do not try to cheaply beg peoples favors with bread, circuses and ecumenical tolerance.
[COLOR=Sienna][FONT=Courier New][B][I] - "What exactly is the difference between you and a Wahhabi imam, besides purely cosmetic ones?"[/I][/B][/FONT[/COLOR]]
This is as [B]cheeeap [/B] shot as they come, perfect in the mouth of some PC leftist, but I can tell you: I am following the true religion of living God, while Wahhabis are not.
Petr
2005-07-18 12:05 | User Profile
I am following the true religion of living God, while Wahhabis are not.
Meaning "there's no difference" (because the above is what they all say). Your notion of what constitutes a "PC leftist" is somewhat broad, and duplicates your definition of "damned soul": anyone who breaks silence-in-ranks while you're up at your lectern, foaming at the mouth.
I'll give you this much: you and Okie and Gabby and the rest of the snake handlers and Old Testament jihadists are the ones with the right of way here: I'm the one who's out of place on this board. [u]I get it now[/u] - I assure you.
I only hope that we can come to our senses in the West and begin turning back the tides of third-world immigration, the one vital component without which your vile Calvinist cargo cult cannot continue to infect rational human beings.
The grimmer the world we live in, the ghastlier the gods some of us summon up in response. I'd say yours is about on par with Cthulhu at the moment, and devolving further every day.
2005-07-18 12:45 | User Profile
[QUOTE=il ragno]Meaning "there's no difference" (because the above is what they all say). .[/QUOTE]
I agree that there is little difference between my approach to religion and that of, say, the Taliban.
I posit my religious beliefs and theologize/philosophize based on those beliefs. My religious beliefs are consciously not subject to rational analysis, for the simple reason that they are postulates and not conclusions.
This is exactly the aspect of Christian Reconstruction that I find so appealing. I think that Petr would generally agree with that, please correct Petr if I'm wrong.
But I've always been very upfront about that (again like the Wahabbists). You appear to be trying to somehow reproach us Talibunnies on that point, which seems to me odd since you know it's a point of pride, at least with me.
2005-07-18 13:40 | User Profile
So Peru's First Lady is a Jewess?
So, that's why we only hear about Venezuela's Hugo Chavez "defiance of the USA" in the US newsmedia!!
2005-07-18 20:55 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Walter Yannis]I agree that there is little difference between my approach to religion and that of, say, the Taliban.
But I've always been very upfront about that (again like the Wahabbists). You appear to be trying to somehow reproach us Talibunnies on that point, which seems to me odd since you know it's a point of pride, at least with me.[/QUOTE]
There's one small but vital difference. [U]You[/U] occasionally display a sense of humor, and even humility. Under the red hat there's a common-sense grounding (which I ascribe to your being a husband and father who understands, however unwillingly, that you have to sometims accept a Mexican standoff with the secular world in lieu of total "victory" 100% of the time.)
Now if I were a dogmatic, kneejerk [U]hater[/U] of religion I might be compelled to say that makes you [I]worse[/I] than someone like Petr, who never [I]doesn't [/I] show you his snarling rictus, and [I]always[/I] delivers a Luddite fireworks display as ostentatious as it is predictable. But I'm not, so I have the luxury of using a less-unyielding yardstick.
When [I]you[/I] consider the fate of Lot's wife, you swallow hard for a moment. When [U]you[/U] read the Abraham-and-Isaac story, you feel a pang, however momentary, of dread and trepidation. (Don't lie, you know damn well it's so.) Like it or not...and you probably don't...you are [I]of[/I] humanity...not arrogantly deluded that you're [B]outside[/B] it.
Need I add that Petr's fanaticism is cheaply-bought compared to yours? His rigidity neither costs, nor risks, him anything. (Not that either version is anything to be admired or wished-for, mind you.) And that's the difference between you two. You two can deny it all you want, but it's a little obvious to the rest of us. Can you possibly, in your wildest fantasies, visualize Petr ever - under any circumstances - telling a [B]joke[/B]?
2005-07-18 23:07 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Walter Yannis]I agree that there is little difference between my approach to religion and that of, say, the Taliban.
I posit my religious beliefs and theologize/philosophize based on those beliefs. My religious beliefs are consciously not subject to rational analysis, for the simple reason that they are postulates and not conclusions.
This is exactly the aspect of Christian Reconstruction that I find so appealing. I think that Petr would generally agree with that, please correct Petr if I'm wrong.
But I've always been very upfront about that (again like the Wahabbists). You appear to be trying to somehow reproach us Talibunnies on that point, which seems to me odd since you know it's a point of pride, at least with me.[/QUOTE]It's interesting that you admit that your beliefs have no rational basis. And your honesty on that point is commendable.
But this leads to the obvious question: If your beliefs aren't based on rationality (or empirical observation), then how do you know they have any basis in reality?
To use a bit of an extreme example, let's say that I decide I am Napoleon Bonaparte. Everyone tells me that it's not true, that I'm just Angler, that Napoleon lived long ago and is dead. But I insist that I'm Napoleon and that everyone else is either lying or deceived. Those who wrote the history books were involved in a conspiracy to make me believe Napoleon was someone else, thus keeping me from my rightful place on the throne. And I make my life decisions based on my knowledge that I am, in fact, Napoleon.
Is there anything wrong with what I am doing under such a scenario? And how is that different from any other rejection of rationality?
The dictionary definition of rationality is as follows:
1 a : having reason or understanding b : relating to, based on, or agreeable to reason : REASONABLE
Source: [url]http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=rational&x=0&y=0[/url]
Why is the abandonment of the above a good thing?
With all due respect, isn't rejection of rationality precisely equivalent to insanity? Help me out here.
2005-07-18 23:14 | User Profile
Playing Devil's advocate for a moment: Serbia was bombed for 70+ days for fighting and killing Muslims. (Remember that the Serbs also have a point of view in this world, whether you or I agree with it nor not.) New York and DC were hit with three rather nasty bombs in one day, as was a hill in Pennsylvania. Petr has a point, if not an iron clad one.
[QUOTE=il ragno]Men lost wives, women lost husbands, children lost fathers and mothers. People were on fire and leaping out 110th floor windows to their deaths; firemen had thousands of tons of metal slag collapse ontheir heads as they ran up stairs attempting to save lives. Who ordained YOU to determine a pecking order of human suffering? Who claimed one was 'holier' than the other?
* you, your plaster saints *and your disgusting looka-me sanctimony, you ignominious "Christian" scumbag. I wipe morality like yours off the bottom of my shoe every time I step in dogshit, you Finnish fraud.[/QUOTE]
2005-07-18 23:21 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Petr] [font=Courier New][color=sienna]- "I thought Christians were duty-bound to widen the tent and evangelize the faith;"[/color][/font]
Not at the expense of the purity of doctrine - and when have you ever shown interest of joining the faith? You seem to have associated so much with PC mainstream "churchians" that you are baffled when you meet Christians who actually believe what they say and do not try to cheaply beg peoples favors with bread, circuses and ecumenical tolerance. Petr[/QUOTE] Spoken like a True Gnostic; a True Communist: a True Believer. So, once again Petr, and with feeling: which denomination of the Christian Faith is The One True Faith? I am anxious to know.
2005-07-18 23:27 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Angler] With all due respect, isn't rejection of rationality precisely equivalent to insanity? Help me out here.[/QUOTE]Trying to remember how far into reducto absurdum one must go to evoke a laugh . . .
Faith, within the context of this conversation, is not belief in absence of all fact, it is belief in absence of sufficient facts to create an ironclad physical proof. I am not advocating a "God of the Gaps" position, that is self defeating, but you seem to be advancing toward the use of definitions to suit your purpose, and a required zero sum end game. That is not a necessary assumption for Faith and mundane physical reality to exist in harmony.
Walter does not reject rationality. He can't, he's an attorney. :dry: Indeed, I will guess that he does as I do, and looks at his Faith and his principles and reconciles them with reality. That need not be a zero sum game, unless you feel you have something to lose with a win-win condition. :smile:
What do you feel is threatened by such a detente? Curious.
2005-07-19 01:12 | User Profile
[QUOTE]Playing Devil's advocate for a moment: Serbia was bombed for 70+ days for fighting and killing Muslims. (Remember that the Serbs also have a point of view in this world, whether you or I agree with it nor not.) New York and DC were hit with three rather nasty bombs in one day, as was a hill in Pennsylvania. Petr has a point, if not an iron clad one. [/QUOTE]
Again, my point was not to excuse one at the expense of the other. Petr's almost certainly was. His point was that since Jews and heathens "run" New York City, anyone killed in the Trade Center attacks was merely collateral damage in an otherwise-necessary assault on Babylon the Great.
The "old" Phora had a few Balkan boards. They were notorious for not just constant warring between [I]all [/I] of the various ethnicities from the region but the near-subhuman glee with which they brandished atrocity photos to each other. Ask anyone who's seen them. It's somewhat amusing that it's only outsiders who ever shed tears over the inhumanity of it all; those living there - Serbs, Croats, Albanians - thrive on that inhumanity.
Trust me: you could not post the [I]comments[/I], let alone the jpegs, these folks bombarded each other at the Phora over here, without immediately prompting a (completely-justified) ban. We should have stayed out of that mess altogether - but to compare [I]that [/I] to blowing completely-innocent noncombatants, involved in [I]no[/I] conflict whatsoever, to bits with no warning whatsoever is SERIOUSLY faulty judgment at best, and damned obscene at worst.
The 9/11 and Pentagon deaths - and the innocent hijacked passengers on those doomed planes - were also my countrymen. You'll pardon my backwards chauvinism if I choose to feel that still means something to me, and should to you, too. God knows if it had happened in Texas or Oklahoma, a lot more folks on this board would allovasudden share my sentiments.
2005-07-19 01:25 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Angeleyes]...which denomination of the Christian Faith is The One True Faith? I am anxious to know.[/QUOTE]
Confessing Lutheran, of course.
[url]http://www.creeds.net/lutheran/missouri.htm[/url]
:thumbsup: :)