← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · Faust
Thread ID: 18735 | Posts: 31 | Started: 2005-06-20
2005-06-20 19:47 | User Profile
Black radicals demand museum paint King Tut black
Black "activists," including the NAACP are protesting the new King Tut exhibit in Los Angeles. They are demanding that the museum rewrite history to depict King Tut as a (Negro)Nubian. Nubians, while black, were actually one of Egypts enemies.
Black activists outraged over King Tut display. [url]http://www.nbc4.tv/news/4581445/detail.html[/url]
Picture: [url]http://cofcc.org/cutenews/data/upimages/frenchkingtut.jpg[/url]
Facial reconstruction of King Tut based on CT scans of his mummy. King Tut was a typical North African Caucasoid. The racial type of the Egyptian mummies are most similar to Eurasians and Neolithic Europeans. They have nothing in common with Sub-Suharan Africans.
[url]http://cofcc.org/cutenews/data/upimages/ramessessII.jpg[/url]
Negro racial types are present in ancient Egyptian art. However, they are always depicted as enemies of Egypt. Here is a depiction of King Rameses II smiting his enemies, a Syrian, a Hittite, and a Nubian(Negro).
The following website has more information. Race in Ancient Egypt
[url]http://www.geocities.com/enbp/[/url]
From [url]http://www.cofcc.org/[/url]
2005-06-21 02:35 | User Profile
While it's certain that King Tut was definitely not 100% black, from the image and evidence found, he doesn't look white either (He looks light brown and has typical middle eastern with some percentage of African facial features -- making him very distinct from both blacks and whites alike). Let's stop with this was white and that was white, the ridiculous Aryan theory originated from whites, etc.
One must realize that apart from European culture, there were many other great ancient cultures which were each distinct. Besides, whites have created a fairly great civilization in this era and should be proud of that. Taking credit for someone else's work is just wrong, whether you're white or black.
2005-06-21 03:04 | User Profile
good post, Kminta. When it comes to race, the racists use whatever definition of "Black" suits their agenda at the time. During slavery and Jim Crow, anyone w/ the fabled "one drop" was considered Black. Now, when discussing Egypt, they seem to say just the opposite! The Egyptians were a mixed AFRICAN people. If the real King Tut were alive today, he could stroll through Harlem without a second glance.
2005-06-21 03:35 | User Profile
[QUOTE=obadiah]good post, Kminta. When it comes to race, the racists use whatever definition of "Black" suits their agenda at the time. During slavery and Jim Crow, anyone w/ the fabled "one drop" was considered Black. Now, when discussing Egypt, they seem to say just the opposite! The Egyptians were a mixed AFRICAN people. If the real King Tut were alive today, he could stroll through Harlem without a second glance.[/QUOTE]
I doubt it--do Semites regularly stroll through Harlem?
2005-06-21 04:34 | User Profile
That reconstruction photo looks like Barbara Streisand.:lol: But seriously, the Egyptians like most people who live around the Mediteranean had that Olive complection. Most of the Egyptian art that we have shows very acurate details of the various people of ancient Egypt. So it is quite clear to me that it would be appalling to "paint" King Tut black.
2005-06-21 07:27 | User Profile
BlueBonnet,
Yes he does look a bit like Barbara Streisand, King Tut was not a European he was a Semite with an olive complection who looked very much like many modern North Africans. The Egyptians were not Aryans but did interact act with some European groups such as the Hittites.
2005-06-21 15:29 | User Profile
If you were to paint a portrait of me would you paint me black if I was white?
Why would they paint Tut any other color than what he was? while he was not white neither was he black. :smartass:
2005-06-21 16:16 | User Profile
Who cares what color Tut was. Why don't we paint the face of the Statue of Liberty black. Who cares.
2005-06-22 01:48 | User Profile
Even if Tut had any Negro blood in him, which based on genetic testing and the recent image they created is nill, if he walked through Harlem he would be lucky to make it through without Negroes demanding his jewelry and maybe even taking a shot at him.
2005-06-22 02:15 | User Profile
If he was a "semite" he might be selling the jewelry! Black is Black, lightskinned or darkskinned. I don't put any stock in what white bigots say.
2005-06-22 02:18 | User Profile
[QUOTE=obadiah]If he was a "semite" he might be selling the jewelry! Black is Black, lightskinned or darkskinned. I don't put any stock in what white bigots say.[/QUOTE]
Take a hike, nigger.
2005-06-22 02:31 | User Profile
North Africans are an interesting group. One of my associates is a blonde, fair-complexioned, French-speaking Egyptian woman who could easily pass for Italian or German. And, I once knew a blonde, curly-haired, blue-eyed Algerian (Berber).
[QUOTE=Faust]BlueBonnet,
Yes he does look a bit like Barbara Streisand, King Tut was not a European he was a Semite with an olive complection who looked very much like many modern North Africans. The Egyptians were not Aryans but did interact act with some European groups such as the Hittites.[/QUOTE]
2005-06-22 02:56 | User Profile
[QUOTE=obadiah]If he was a "semite" he might be selling the jewelry! Black is Black, lightskinned or darkskinned. I don't put any stock in what white bigots say.[/QUOTE]
Semites are Caucasoids, not Negroids. You are wrong, although I assume that veracity matters little to fanatics such as yourself.
2005-06-22 02:58 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Stuka]North Africans are an interesting group. One of my associates is a blonde, fair-complexioned, French-speaking Egyptian woman who could easily pass for Italian or German. And, I once knew a blonde, curly-haired, blue-eyed Algerian (Berber).[/QUOTE]
Yes. Often, the higher the social status of the [North African] person in question, the more likely they are to resemble continential European whites.
2005-06-22 04:07 | User Profile
[QUOTE=2600]Semites are Caucasoids, not Negroids. You are wrong, although I assume that veracity matters little to fanatics such as yourself.[/QUOTE] Semites may indeed be caucasoids, but that matters little when discussing King Tut.Semites in large numbers came into Egypt in A.D. 639-642, when Muslim Arab armies conquered Egypt. Nobody pretends the ancient Egyptians were pure Semites, and many know the lineage of Shem (check how the Elamites painted of themselves) was Black, and later mixed with Whites from the North, from around the Mesopotamia area, to eventually form the phenotype we now call "Semitic."Ancient Egypt's language was related both to Semitic languages and languages of pre-Arab North Africa. The World Book Ensucklopedia in the 1989 edition defines the race of ancient Egypt as "Hamite." This word has long been an ace-up-the-sleeve of bigoted White academics. Originally, they considered it to mean all Blacks, who they labeled as "cursed" and doomed to slavery (actually, Ham's father Noah cursed Ham's son Canaan, not all of Ham's descendants. Canaan fathered the Canaanite nation of ancient Palestine, who were to be conquered by the Hebrews in ancient times, fulfilling the curse). When it became known that Africa had advanced civilizations in the past, the White bigot academics started saying Hamite was different from Black, and represented a type of Caucasian. The 1989 World Book lists present-day Hamites as including Berbers (who ARE white I believe), as well as Beja, Fulani, Oromo, and Somali. If you've ever seen pictures of Somalians (like David Bowie's wife-couldn't she at least go with a straight white guy if it had to be a white guy LOL) or Oromo (the darkest and most African-looking of the Ethiopians), you'll see that "Hamite", when used today, is a "euphemism" for a particular ethnic type of East African Black person.
2005-06-22 05:12 | User Profile
[QUOTE=obadiah]you'll see that "Hamite", when used today, is a "euphemism" for a particular ethnic type of East African Black person.[/QUOTE]
It may well be, BUT that has little to with the origins of the ancient Egyptians.
Let us look at [unassailable] evidence for the Caucasoid origin of the Egyptians/North Africans.
Excerpt from PBS's recent television show, Secrets of the Pharaohs (Episode 2: Lost City Of the Pyramids)
[QUOTE] DR. MOAMENA KAMEL (IMMUNOLOGIST, CAIRO UNIVERSITY): People who are living here, they are the same as the people who had been living 6000 years ago. OK? And now the moderns are the descendants of these ancient Egyptians.
NARRATOR: The DNA confirmed a close relationship between the modern Egyptians living in the Nile Valley and the ancient workers who had been buried there. For Zahi, this was an extremely significant find.
ZAHI HAWASS: It proves -- for no doubt -- that the builders of the pyramids were Egyptians. And you know, if they were not Egyptians, they would not have been buried here. They would never be buried in the same method of the ancient Egyptians. You do not have any doubt to tell us that those people are Egyptians at all. They were Egyptian by blood. [/QUOTE]
The ancient Egyptians are genetically similar to modern Egyptians.
More Genetic Evidence Moving on to more genetic evidence:
Bosch's study(1997) used genetic markers to calculate the similarities between modern Egyptians and Mediterranean Asians and Europeans. Read the abstract below. Their findings clearly indicate that sub-Saharan (Negroid) Africans do not have much overlap with North Africans.
[url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed&cmd=Retrieve&list_uids=9164042&dopt=Abstract[/url]
[QUOTE]In both analyses the main feature of the genetic landscape in northern Africa is an east-west pattern of variation pointing to the differentiation between the Berber and Arab population groups of the northwest and the populations of Libya and Egypt. Moreover, Libya and Egypt show the smallest genetic distances with the European populations, including the Iberian Peninsula. The most plausible interpretation of these results is that, although demic diffusion during the Neolithic could explain the genetic similarity between northeast Africa and Europe by a parallel process of gene flow from the Near East, a Mesolithic (or older) differentiation of the populations in the northwestern regions with later limited gene flow is needed to understand the genetic picture.[/QUOTE]
Ancient Testimony Let's now look at some ancient testimony.
First, the Roman writer Arrian, in Book VIII of his Indica writes of the inhabitants of India, comparing them to the Egyptians.
[url]http://www.und.ac.za/und/classics/india/arrian.htm[/url]
[QUOTE]The appearance of the inhabitants, too, is not so far different in India and Ethiopia; the southern Indians resemble the Ethiopians a good deal, and, are black of countenance, and their hair black also, only they are not as snub-nosed or so woolly-haired as the Ethiopians; but the northern Indians are most like the Egyptians in appearance.[/QUOTE]
Northern Indians are straight-haired and sometimes as fair-skinned as European Caucasoids, unlike the Dravidians (southern Indians).
Manilius, in Book IV of his Astronomica describes the inhabitants of Egypt.
[url]http://www.gmu.edu/departments/fld/CLASSICS/manilius4.html[/url]
[QUOTE]Aethiopes maculant orbem tenebrisque figurant
perfusas hominum gentes; minus India tostos
progenerat;
tellusque natans Aegyptia Nilo
lenius irriguis infuscat corpora campis
iam propior
mediumque facit moderata tenorem.[/QUOTE]
English translation:
[QUOTE]The Ethiopians stain the world and depict a race of men steeped in darkness; less sun-burnt are the natives of India; the land of Egypt, flooded by the Nile, darkens bodies more mildly owing to the inundation of its fields: it it a country nearer to us and its moderate climate imparts a medium tone.[/QUOTE]
Once again, the Egyptians are contrasted with the black [Negroid] natives of Ethiopia.
Afro-centric crackpots often attempt to depict Egyptians as black by pointing to ancient Greek descriptions of them as melas or melanchroies.
However, melas and the related melanchroies simply meant swarthy and dark, rather than an actual skin color. And nobody doubts that the Egyptians were swarthier than the Greeks. See definition of melas here:
[url]http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/lexindex?lookup=me/las&lang=Greek&author=*2.0&corpus=2.0[/url]
Yet More Genetic Evidence and a Visual Aide Finally, here is a handy lil' visual aide, a Y chromosome plot showing the genetic distance between North Africans, Europeans and sub-Saharan Africans.
[URL=http://img38.echo.cx/my.php?image=plot25kf.jpg][IMG]http://img38.echo.cx/img38/1507/plot25kf.th.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
Source: (Hammer et al., Proc Natl Acad Sci, 2000)
2005-06-22 05:20 | User Profile
Without a doubt the modern Egyptians are genetically related to the ancient Egyptians. They are also genetically related to the waves of Arabs, Greeks, Romans, and Persians who invaded at one point or another. Please try to find a picture of ANWAR SADAT. He was Egypt's president during the 1960's.
2005-06-22 05:29 | User Profile
[QUOTE=obadiah]Without a doubt the modern Egyptians are genetically related to the ancient Egyptians.[/QUOTE]
And therefore the ancient Egyptians are genetically closer to Europeans than to sub-Saharan Africans.
[QUOTE]They are also genetically related to the waves of Arabs, Greeks, Romans, and Persians who invaded at one point or another.[/QUOTE]
Yes. They are more closely related to these Caucasoids than to sub-Saharan Africans.
[QUOTE]Please try to find a picture of ANWAR SADAT. He was Egypt's president during the 1960's.[/QUOTE]
[URL=http://img159.echo.cx/my.php?image=anwarsadatdrum3dn.jpg][IMG]http://img159.echo.cx/img159/3531/anwarsadatdrum3dn.th.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
Ok. And?
2005-06-22 05:30 | User Profile
[QUOTE=obadiah]Please try to find a picture of ANWAR SADAT. He was Egypt's president during the 1960's.[/QUOTE]
Anwar Sadat was president of Egypt from September 29, 1970 to October 6, 1981, actually.
[url]http://www.ibiblio.org/sullivan/bios/Sadat-bio.html[/url]
2005-06-22 05:39 | User Profile
My vision isn't 20/20, but I've got my glasses on. Maybe I need a nu prescription, because Sadat in that photo looks more to me like George Jefferson than Archie Bunker.
2005-06-22 05:43 | User Profile
[QUOTE=obadiah]My vision isn't 20/20, but I've got my glasses on. Maybe I need a nu prescription, because Sadat in that photo looks more to me like George Jefferson than Archie Bunker.[/QUOTE]
You've done a great job of refuting my points thus far, obadiah.
I presented genetic evidence for the similarities between Egyptians and other Caucasoid groups. You, on the other hand, cherry-pick certain individuals and then claim that Egyptians [Caucasoids] are related to Negroids.
Shall I start posting photographs of Egyptians who look Nordic? Or, better yet, shall I find photographs of swarthy Serbians and then claim that Belgrade was founded by wandering groups of sub-Saharan Africans?
I shall let the gallery decide who is correct in this matter. The overwhelming evidence is on my side; a single, carefully chosen example and the lies of the Afrocentricist crackpots are on yours.
2005-06-22 05:55 | User Profile
So, if Sadat's genes are uniformly "caucasian", as are those of all Egyptians, from ancient times until today, why does he look the way he does?
You've proven that modern Egyptians are related to ancient Egyptians. We also agree that Greeks, Romans, Persians, and Arabs infiltrated the original Egyptian gene pool SINCE THEN. We know African genes tend to dominate in a mixed person's appearance, even if they're numerically outweighed by non-Black genes. We know American Blacks are a mixed people. If we have
in the genetic background of modern Egyptians, and modern Egyptians look like African-Americans, how much of a "crackpot" inference is it to make that the "?" race of the original Egyptians was Black?
2005-06-22 06:04 | User Profile
Stuka,
Yes North Africa is an interesting place. The ancient Berbers and some of the modern ones are blonde and red haired.
[QUOTE]North Africans are an interesting group. One of my associates is a blonde, fair-complexioned, French-speaking Egyptian woman who could easily pass for Italian or German. And, I once knew a blonde, curly-haired, blue-eyed Algerian (Berber). [/QUOTE]
2005-06-22 06:04 | User Profile
[QUOTE=obadiah]So, if Sadat's genes are uniformly "caucasian", as are those of all Egyptians, from ancient times until today, why does he look the way he does?[/QUOTE]
Please show where I claimed this. The truth is that the majority of Egyptians have much more in common with Caucasoid Europeans than Negroid sub-Saharans. I have demonstrated this. I have never claimed that Sadat himself is uniformly Caucasian.
[QUOTE]You've proven that modern Egyptians are related to ancient Egyptians. We also agree that Greeks, Romans, Persians, and Arabs infiltrated the original Egyptian gene pool SINCE THEN.[/QUOTE]
Yes. BUT...not to any great extent. Read my long post again. Egyptians today are similar to Egyptians c. 6,000 years ago. A small admixture of other Caucasoid groups does not change the fact that the original Egyptians were also Caucasoids.
[QUOTE]modern Egyptians look like African-Americans, how much of a "crackpot" inference is it to make that the "?" race of the original Egyptians was Black?[/QUOTE]
Except modern Egyptians do not "look like" African-Americans. Also, it is disingenous to use the words "look like". "Look like" means nothing. Read my long post. There, it is demonstrated that modern Egyptians are genetically closest to European Caucasoids. That is a fact; you cannot debate it.
2005-06-22 06:15 | User Profile
[URL=http://www.imageshack.us][IMG]http://img62.echo.cx/img62/9417/hosnimubarak2qc.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
Hosni Mubarak, Egyptian President--looks like Michael Jordan.
[URL=http://img62.echo.cx/my.php?image=abdelhhafez6bm.jpg][IMG]http://img62.echo.cx/img62/267/abdelhhafez6bm.th.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
Abdel Halim El Hafez, Egyptian musician--could walk through Cabrini-Green and never stand out
[URL=http://img62.echo.cx/my.php?image=amr151zs.jpg][IMG]http://img62.echo.cx/img62/9172/amr151zs.th.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
Amr Diab, Egyptian actor and model--a possible stunt-double for Sameul L. Jackson?
[URL=http://img62.echo.cx/my.php?image=marquee1mahmoudreda4ap.jpg][IMG]http://img62.echo.cx/img62/403/marquee1mahmoudreda4ap.th.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
Mahmoud Reda, Egyptian dancer--a dead ringer for Jada Pinkett Smith
2005-06-22 06:20 | User Profile
Bosch's study proves the sub-saharan genetic element in today's North Africa to be SMALL, not nil. We know that the (mostly Caucasoid in genes) invaders from the Arabian peninsula did a lot of raping and killing as they advanced westward across the Continent. Here's a good analogy: I'm a small fraction Powhatan, from the part of my family that lived in West Virginia. We could get a DNA test which shows a genetic connection between us and the inhabitants of Virginia 6000 years ago. The majority of our genes are not Powhatan. We do not look Powhatan. Most of the people in the Virginia area today do not look Powhatan. Some do (the Powhatans!), so it is with a once-Black, now practically non-Black Egypt, and the modern Egyptian families (the Sadats are one example) whose Black ancestry is visible.
2005-06-22 06:26 | User Profile
[QUOTE=obadiah]Bosch's study proves the sub-saharan genetic element in today's North Africa to be SMALL, not nil.[/QUOTE]
Yes, exactly. Very small as compared to the Caucasoid elements.
[QUOTE]We know that the (mostly Caucasoid in genes) invaders from the Arabian peninsula did a lot of raping and killing as they advanced westward across the Continent.[/QUOTE]
Not enough to seriously change the genetics of the native populace. Nobody belives that they did, not even the Afrocentricists. No credible scientist would stand behind that theory.
2005-06-22 06:31 | User Profile
How much Afrocentric literature have you read? Are you familiar with the works of DR. CHEIKH ANTA DIOP, the late senegalese physicist? I don't agree with everything he says (he was an evolutionist, for one thing), but Egypt was his specialty. I think you should check him out.
2005-06-22 06:39 | User Profile
[QUOTE=obadiah]How much Afrocentric literature have you read?[/QUOTE]
Quite a bit.
[QUOTE]Are you familiar with the works of DR. CHEIKH ANTA DIOP, the late senegalese physicist? I don't agree with everything he says (he was an evolutionist, for one thing), but Egypt was his specialty. I think you should check him out.[/QUOTE]
Yes. Two points, though:
Diop was an African pan-nationalist and sought to connect sub-Saharan Africa to the glories of ancient Egypt to bolster Africans' feelings about themselves and their history (not a bad goal, but his research preceeded from an ideological, rather than scientific, standpoint).
He wrote his major works in the late 1950s, before genetic evidence revealed the Caucasoid nature of ancient Egyptians
I am going to bed now, as I have a swim meet in the morning. We can continue this discussion later, if you wish.
It was interesting.
2005-06-23 07:54 | User Profile
They should just glue a picture of wacko jacko's face over Tut's that should make all sides happy.
2005-06-25 07:02 | User Profile
G. LARSON- The Lord Jesus' name in Hebrew is Yeshua, not yusha.
BACK TO THE EGYPTIANS-If they were white, why did their death masks look like Black people?