← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · Gabrielle
Thread ID: 18689 | Posts: 35 | Started: 2005-06-16
2005-06-16 22:50 | User Profile
U.S. SENATOR CALLS U.S. TROOPS "NAZI'S" BY: Hal Turner
Washington, DC - June 16, 2005 -- Sen. Dick Durbin, an Illinois Democrat, took the Senate floor yesterday and likened American servicemen to Nazis! His remarks, in the Congressional Record of the US Senate, were as follows:
"When you read some of the graphic descriptions of what has occurred here [at Guantanamo Bay]--I almost hesitate to put them in the [Congressional] Record, and yet they have to be added to this debate. Let me read to you what one FBI agent saw. And I quote from his report:"
On a couple of occasions, I entered interview rooms to find a detainee chained hand and foot in a fetal position to the floor, with no chair, food or water. Most times they urinated or defecated on themselves, and had been left there for 18-24 hours or more.
On one occasion, the air conditioning had been turned down so far and the temperature was so cold in the room, that the barefooted detainee was shaking with cold. . . .
On another occasion, the [air conditioner] had been turned off, making the temperature in the unventilated room well over 100 degrees. The detainee was almost unconscious on the floor, with a pile of hair next to him. He had apparently been literally pulling his hair out throughout the night.
On another occasion, not only was the temperature unbearably hot, but extremely loud rap music was being played in the room, and had been since the day before, with the detainee chained hand and foot in the fetal position on the tile floor.
The Senator continued "If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime--Pol Pot or others--that had no concern for human beings. Sadly, that is not the case. This was the action of Americans in the treatment of their prisoners." [url]http://www.halturnershow.com/SenatorCallsUSTroopsNAZIS.html[/url]
2005-06-17 00:02 | User Profile
I don't agree with the whole idea of the war on terror, or the war in Iraq,etc. But some of these people that bitch about these types of things can get annoying. Oh, the poor abused detainees, cry me a river. Whether you think their motivations are right or wrong, what do you suppose these same people that some are so "concerned" about, and talk about how we are "violating their rights" would do to American troops they captured? It wouldn't be pretty.
And this stuff sounds laughable in comparison:
[QUOTE] On a couple of occasions, I entered interview rooms to find a detainee chained hand and foot in a fetal position to the floor, with no chair, food or water. Most times they urinated or defecated on themselves, and had been left there for 18-24 hours or more.
On one occasion, the air conditioning had been turned down so far and the temperature was so cold in the room, that the barefooted detainee was shaking with cold. . . .
On another occasion, the [air conditioner] had been turned off, making the temperature in the unventilated room well over 100 degrees. The detainee was almost unconscious on the floor, with a pile of hair next to him. He had apparently been literally pulling his hair out throughout the night.
On another occasion, not only was the temperature unbearably hot, but extremely loud rap music was being played in the room, and had been since the day before, with the detainee chained hand and foot in the fetal position on the tile floor. [/QUOTE]
2005-06-17 01:03 | User Profile
[QUOTE=starr]I don't agree with the whole idea of the war on terror, or the war in Iraq,etc. But some of these people that bitch about these types of things can get annoying. Oh, the poor abused detainees, cry me a river. Whether you think their motivations are right or wrong, what do you suppose these same people that some are so "concerned" about, and talk about how we are "violating their rights" would do to American troops they captured? It wouldn't be pretty.
And this stuff sounds laughable in comparison:[/QUOTE]
I agree. So is the Phora still down?
2005-06-17 02:22 | User Profile
[QUOTE=starr]I don't agree with the whole idea of the war on terror, or the war in Iraq,etc. But some of these people that bitch about these types of things can get annoying. Oh, the poor abused detainees, cry me a river. Whether you think their motivations are right or wrong, what do you suppose these same people that some are so "concerned" about, and talk about how we are "violating their rights" would do to American troops they captured? It wouldn't be pretty.
And this stuff sounds laughable in comparison:[/QUOTE]
Who exactly are those "poor abused detainees" and what were the crimes they committed against the United States of America to warrant indefinite detention and subsequent torture by American soldiers??
I don't know either.
2005-06-17 04:49 | User Profile
The Torturers of Abu Gharib and Guantanimo Bay dishonor the uniform of the United States Army. I include in this both officers and enlisted men, but particularly officers, who are supposed to be gentlemen. Gentlemen do not resort to the techniques of gangsters and thugs.
To treat a captured enemy with as much common courtesy as possible in war conditions reflects favorably on the victor. What makes the torture even more of a scandal is that the President and many members of his cabinet are professing Christians. They ignore the Christ they allegedly seek to serve. One is tempted to believe that Mr. Bush's original confession, to a satanic cult, Skull and Bones, is the one that is still operative and not his alliegence to Methodism.
2005-06-17 05:53 | User Profile
[QUOTE=CornCod]The Torturers of Abu Gharib and Guantanimo Bay dishonor the uniform of the United States Army. I include in this both officers and enlisted men, but particularly officers, who are supposed to be gentlemen. Gentlemen do not resort to the techniques of gangsters and thugs.
To treat a captured enemy with as much common courtesy as possible in war conditions reflects favorably on the victor. What makes the torture even more of a scandal is that the President and many members of his cabinet are professing Christians. They ignore the Christ they allegedly seek to serve. One is tempted to believe that Mr. Bush's original confession, to a satanic cult, Skull and Bones, is the one that is still operative and not his alliegence to Methodism.[/QUOTE] You make a good point that the officers are accountable for the entire evolution being conducted professionally. The turd in the punch bowl? It is not a purely military function, there appear to be "other parties" involved.
How many years will it be before anyone knows the truth? I guess decades. And as for the matter of charges, enough stalling, already. That just ain't right.
2005-06-17 07:31 | User Profile
Corncod-Mr. Bush's original confession, to a satanic cult, Skull and Bones That is correct, although most of those who are initiated don't really know what they're getting into at about the age of 20 or 21. All they know is that they've been honored by an invitation to join one of the most exclusive, prestigious, and lucrative clubs in history, the pinnacle of the oldtime EastCoast WASPs. It is set up so that one will be financially secure and connected for life, and once you're in, nobody ever leaves. Blood brothers.
2005-06-17 08:33 | User Profile
I think it's a slightly over-the-top statement also, but why should Nazi comparisons always be "off-limits" as a matter of principle?
It's people who believe that it's possible for their country to become a totalitarian state who actually prevent it from happening.
The Senator didn't "call US troops Nazis", he pointed out that certain aspects of the treatment of prisoners resemble stuff normally associated with totalitarian regimes, and maybe that isn't a good path to start going down. If you wait until your government truly resembles Nazi Germany in every sense of the word before bringing up Nazis as a cautionary tale it's too late by then.
2005-06-17 14:51 | User Profile
[QUOTE=RowdyRoddyPiper]I think it's a slightly over-the-top statement also, but why should Nazi comparisons always be "off-limits" as a matter of principle?[/QUOTE] Good point. This has always bothered me, as well. Were the Nazis so unspeakably evil that no comparison whatsoever can be drawn between them and Americans? I suppose the Nazis didn't breathe air, like Americans? Or that the Nazis didn't put their pants on one leg at a time, like Americans?
On a slightly unrelated note, why are German soldiers from WWII always called Nazis? The National Socialists were the ruling party, but the vast majority of the Germans soldiers were not party members. If we use the same logic, our troops in Iraq should be called 'Republican soldiers'. In WWII it should have been the saintly Democrats against the evil Nazis.
2005-06-17 17:53 | User Profile
[quote=Quantrill]Or that the Nazis didn't put their pants on one leg at a time, like Americans?
No. I learned in the Holocaustâ⢠Museum that the Nazis had special two-legs-at-a-time pants made from the skin of Jewish babies cut from their mothers' wombs. The suspenders were made from Rabbis' intestines. Doesn't everyone know that?
If we use the same logic, our troops in Iraq should be called 'Republican soldiers'.
It could still happen...
2005-06-17 17:53 | User Profile
[QUOTE]I think it's a slightly over-the-top statement also, but why should Nazi comparisons always be "off-limits" as a matter of principle?[/QUOTE]
Thy shouldn't be, when appropriate.
In this case however the comparison is simply idiotic. The so called abuses at Gitmo are no worse than the treatment U.S. soldiers receive during boot camp.
The good Senator is simply and idiot, reaching way to far to try to make a point.
2005-06-17 18:01 | User Profile
A comparision with the Nazis is inappropriate. The "hot" and "cold" room interrogation is an old Soviet OPGU method. Solzhenitsyn considers it to be a form of torture. Maybe this is another method to "fight terrorism" that "our friends, the Israelis", taught us. There are former members of the Soviet secret police living there.
2005-06-17 18:51 | User Profile
[QUOTE=jeffersonian] In this case however the comparison is simply idiotic. The so called abuses at Gitmo are no worse than the treatment U.S. soldiers receive during boot camp.[/QUOTE] My brother did his basic training at Fort Benning. He neglected to mention this part of it --
On a couple of occasions, I entered interview rooms to find a detainee chained hand and foot in a fetal position to the floor, with no chair, food or water. Most times they urinated or defecated on themselves, and had been left there for 18-24 hours or more. Your point, however, is that this stuff is rather mild, as far as torture goes, and I agree with you. However, I have very, very little confidence in the guilt of most of the prisoners, oops, detainees in Gitmo, so this stuff makes me wince. After all, it could be you or I next.
2005-06-17 20:00 | User Profile
Its not the military that needs critisism over the issue of "torture", but the idiots that sent them and keep them there. Shades of vietnam all over again.
2005-06-17 21:07 | User Profile
ADL to Senator Durbin: Inappropriate Comparison to Nazi Tactics Unacceptable
New York, NY, June 16, 2005 ... The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) today called on Senator Richard J. Durbin (D-IL) to repudiate his remarks and apologize to the American people for distorting an important issue, with an inappropriate comparison to Nazi tactics.
In a speech on the Senate floor on June 14th on the situation at Guantanamo Bay he likened American treatment of prisoners to what "must have been done by Nazis... that had no concern for human beings."
Following is the text of the letter:
Dear Senator Durbin:
We write to object to your reference to Nazis in the context of the debate on detainees at Guantanamo Bay on the Senate floor earlier this week.
Whatever your views on the treatment of detainees and alleged excesses at the Guantanamo Bay facility, it is inappropriate and insensitive to suggest that actions by American troops in any way resemble actions taken by Nazis in their treatment of prisoners. Suggesting some kind of equivalence between their interrogation tactics demonstrates a profound lack of understanding about the horrors that Hitler and his regime actually perpetrated.
We urge you to repudiate your remarks and apologize to the American people for distorting an important issue with an inappropriate comparison to Nazi tactics. However heated the debate over issues of the day, we would urge you to refrain from using Holocaust imagery in the future.
Note how they aren't upset about [COLOR=Red][B]Soviet tactics.[/B][/COLOR] Durbin has alot of nerve to use something that the ADL owns the copyright on. As usual, it is all about them and to hell with everyone else.
2005-06-22 06:55 | User Profile
Sertorius
A good post. I do not have a problem with what Dick Durbin said, I think he was attacking Bush... I find it somewhat hard to disagree with him.
[QUOTE]A comparision with the Nazis is inappropriate. The "hot" and "cold" room interrogation is an old Soviet OPGU method. Solzhenitsyn considers it to be a form of torture. Maybe this is another method to "fight terrorism" that "our friends, the Israelis", taught us. There are former members of the Soviet secret police living there.[/QUOTE]
2005-06-22 07:18 | User Profile
[QUOTE]
ADL to Senator Durbin: Inappropriate Comparison to Nazi Tactics Unacceptable
[/QUOTE]LOL. How did I just know something like that was coming. This must be quite a confusing issue for Jews. Do they approve of the idea of certain things getting labeled, "nazi tactics" so that we can understand that since the "nazis" were so uniquely evil that everything that may be evil, has to be looked at in reference to this? Or do they go with the idea that absolutely nothing must ever be seen as close or even comparible with this great "evil" Oy vey, what to do.:unsure:
2005-06-22 18:53 | User Profile
No, that isn't Limbaugh reenacting how he took Hamburger Hill all by himself during the Viet Nam War. [IMG]http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/today.parcol11.0011.ImageFile.jpg[/IMG] Instead, here's one silly ass that is playing this to the max by using the flag and the troops as shields.
2005-06-22 19:15 | User Profile
ADL Accepts Sen. Durbin's Apology for Inappropriate Nazi Comparison
New York, NY, June 22, 2005 ââ¬Â¦ The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) today accepted the apology of Senator Richard J. Durbin (D-IL) for his remarks comparing the mistreatment of American detainees at Guantanamo Bay with the acts of Nazis during the Holocaust.
"We're glad that Senator Durbin has come to understand why his comments were so painful and inappropriate," said Abraham H. Foxman, ADL National Director.
In a statement read on the Senate floor yesterday, Senator Durbin acknowledged that he had used "a poor choice of words. ââ¬Â¦ [B]I'm sorry if anything that I said caused any offense or pain to those who have such bitter memories of the Holocaust, the greatest moral tragedy of our time."[/B]
Mr. Foxman added, "All politicians, regardless of party affiliation or political persuasion, must realize that there is a point when inapt comparisons to the Holocaust become odious, especially when used to make a political point or advance a certain agenda. While there is no taboo against invoking the lessons and memory of the Holocaust, inappropriate comparisons to the Nazis only serve to trivialize genocide and insult the memory of the six million." [url]http://www.adl.org/PresRele/HolNa_52/4739_52.htm[/url] ====================== Oy! See? That's the end of it. The ADL got their pound of flesh, so everyone else can go ahead and drop this.
It really is all about them. :caiphas:
"We're glad that Senator Durbin has come to understand why his comments were so painful and inappropriate," said Abraham H. Foxman, ADL National Director.
Yep, I bet Abe wasn't in this much pain since he had his last hangnail.
2005-06-22 19:23 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Sertorius] In a statement read on the Senate floor yesterday, Senator Durbin acknowledged that he had used "a poor choice of words. ââ¬Â¦ I'm sorry if anything that I said caused any offense or pain to those who have such bitter memories of the Holocaust, the greatest moral tragedy of our time."[/QUOTE] Of our time? I'm surprised the ADL deigned to accept this. Doesn't Durbin know that the Holocaust is the absolute touchstone of all evil since the creation of the universe, and that no other event can compare to it? That it was a direct assault against G-d Himself, and that the precious blood of the Six Million was shed to purify the world of its sins? I think he needs another round in the Sensitivity Chamber.
2005-06-22 19:30 | User Profile
Q,
What you write is true enough. As far as these folks are concerned the "holocaust" and the "civil rights" movment are the only two things in American history that have any meaning. Everything else pales in comparison.
2005-06-22 19:58 | User Profile
My only beef with Durbin is that he apologized. Though his "Nazi" remarks were a bit exaggerated, he wasn't too far off the mark. Anyone who maltreats a prisoner acts in a disgraceful and dishonorable fashion, like a common thug or a member of the Israeli military. Some of the guards at Abu Ghraib and Gitmo, like the idiot-faced Pillsbury Doughboy Charles Graner and his butt-ugly dwarf of a sidekick Sabrina Harman, are not much better than the Nazis or Commies. They're nothing but sadistic cowards.
2005-06-22 20:07 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Angler]My only beef with Durbin is that he apologized. Though his "Nazi" remarks were a bit exaggerated, he wasn't too far off the mark. Anyone who maltreats a prisoner acts in a disgraceful and dishonorable fashion, like a common thug or a member of the Israeli military. Some of the guards at Abu Ghraib and Gitmo, like the idiot-faced Pillsbury Doughboy Charles Graner and his butt-ugly dwarf of a sidekick Sabrina Harman, are not much better than the Nazis or Commies. They're nothing but sadistic cowards.[/QUOTE]
Totally agree. Just from the pics from inside Abu Ghraib that the whole world saw, the guards were smiling ear to ear in front of their tortured subjects. Durbin shouldn't have apologized. Isn't there anyone in Congress who stands by their controversial remarks anymore?
2005-06-22 21:07 | User Profile
[QUOTE=xmetalhead]Totally agree. Just from the pics from inside Abu Ghraib that the whole world saw, the guards were smiling ear to ear in front of their tortured subjects. Durbin shouldn't have apologized. Isn't there anyone in Congress who stands by their controversial remarks anymore?[/QUOTE]
It's too bad Durbin doesn't concern himself with all the rape and torture in the American prison system. :shocking:
2005-06-22 21:57 | User Profile
Gabrielle,
I agree with you. They should raise hell about not only places like Abu Ghraib, but the U.S. prison system as well.
2005-06-22 22:07 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Sertorius]Gabrielle,
I agree with you. They should raise hell about not only places like Abu Ghraib, but the U.S. prison system as well.[/QUOTE]
Yes, but both you and I know Durbin couldn't care less about American prisoners. He only wants to discredit Republicans.
2005-06-22 22:21 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Gabrielle]Yes, but both you and I know Durbin couldn't care less about American prisoners. He only wants to discredit Republicans.[/QUOTE]As if Republicans had any credibility to begin with. They're every bit as bad as the Democrats. Both major parties are absolutely evil and treasonous; they're just evil in slightly different ways.
2005-06-23 13:33 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Sertorius]Gabrielle,
I agree with you. They should raise hell about not only places like Abu Ghraib, but the U.S. prison system as well.[/QUOTE]
Sert, more hypocrisy from the Repugs when they rant the propaganda that Saddam's "rape rooms" are "closed forever" and we're bringing "democracy" to Iraq, while America's "rape rooms" AKA The US Prison System are open for business and operating uninhibited.
Sickening.
2005-06-23 16:50 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Angler]My only beef with Durbin is that he apologized. Though his "Nazi" remarks were a bit exaggerated, he wasn't too far off the mark. Anyone who maltreats a prisoner acts in a disgraceful and dishonorable fashion, like a common thug or a member of the Israeli military. Some of the guards at Abu Ghraib and Gitmo, like the idiot-faced Pillsbury Doughboy [B][I]Charles Graner and his butt-ugly dwarf of a sidekick Sabrina Harman, are not much better than the Nazis or Commies. They're nothing but sadistic cowards[/I][/B].[/QUOTE]The typewriter commando has written.
2005-06-25 18:22 | User Profile
[QUOTE=xmetalhead]Sert, more hypocrisy from the Repugs when they rant the propaganda that Saddam's "rape rooms" are "closed forever" and we're bringing "democracy" to Iraq, while America's "rape rooms" AKA The US Prison System are open for business and operating uninhibited.
Sickening.[/QUOTE]
Of course you have direct evidence the US Prison System is a rape room operated by the Federal Government.
The US Prison System is a system which houses human animals whose behavior indicates their incapacity to live in civilized society. I would rather have them rape each other than our wives, daughters, mothers, sons or ourselves. To compare this system with Iraq is silly.
2005-06-25 18:35 | User Profile
[QUOTE=JoseyWales]Its not the military that needs critisism over the issue of "torture", but the idiots that sent them and keep them there. Shades of vietnam all over again.[/QUOTE] Shades of political opportunism all over again as well. Viet Nam was essentially a civil war which we tried to define in cold war terms. On the other hand, Iraq is a war which we started and are trying to define in terms of terrorism. Bush and his cronies miscalculated, and misunderstood the capacity of the American people to endure reckless wars. He took for granted the American people would willingly sacrifice the lives of their sons and daughters for Bush"s personal war. Not to mention for the preservation and security of Israel. Thus this war has been a tragedy for America and Iraq.
Bush should be impeached, because he has demonstrated hasn't the temperment, the intellect, or the character to be President. I think he's a false and dangerous man.
2005-06-25 23:07 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Ron] He took for granted the American people would willingly sacrifice the lives of their sons and daughters for Bush"s personal war. Not to mention for the preservation and security of Israel. Thus this war has been a tragedy for America and Iraq. [/QUOTE] Crisp! :thumbsup: I owe you at least one beer, should we ever meet in the flesh. Maybe three.
2005-06-25 23:21 | User Profile
[QUOTE]The US Prison System is a system which houses human animals whose behavior indicates their incapacity to live in civilized society. I would rather have them rape each other than our wives, daughters, mothers, sons or ourselves. To compare this system with Iraq is silly.[/QUOTE] I agree with the second part of your statement if we are talking about the most violent hard-core felons. But what about someone who is in for a lesser offense?
2005-06-27 03:54 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Angler]My only beef with Durbin is that he apologized. Though his "Nazi" remarks were a bit exaggerated, he wasn't too far off the mark. Anyone who maltreats a prisoner acts in a disgraceful and dishonorable fashion, like a common thug or a member of the Israeli military. Some of the guards at Abu Ghraib and Gitmo, like the idiot-faced Pillsbury Doughboy Charles Graner and his butt-ugly dwarf of a sidekick Sabrina Harman, are not much better than the Nazis or Commies. They're nothing but sadistic cowards.[/QUOTE]
Your tax dollars at work. Maybe we would all be better off if we allow those poor mistreated souls at Gitmo free access to American society. Maybe, a few car bombs would put our minds in the right place. The treatment of those guys in no way would compare with the mistreatment of Americans under Japanese control. Those poor whining little A-rabs had to pose nude with a woman. Poor little fellas. Can we imagine the psychological damage they must have endured. Especially, after all they had been through.
2005-06-28 10:41 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Ron]Your tax dollars at work. Maybe we would all be better off if we allow those poor mistreated souls at Gitmo free access to American society. Maybe, a few car bombs would put our minds in the right place. The treatment of those guys in no way would compare with the mistreatment of Americans under Japanese control. Those poor whining little A-rabs had to pose nude with a woman. Poor little fellas. Can we imagine the psychological damage they must have endured. Especially, after all they had been through.[/QUOTE]My thoughts on the war aside, the actions at Abu Graib bother me mostly because they WERE unprofessional. That said, I've seen a helluva lot worse in college fraternity initiations (yeah, I know Limbaugh said this, too!) Durbin ought to get his ass in uniform and experience what our people go through before he starts his Nazi and gulag BS. The same goes for that fat moron from Hyannis.
I served over twenty years in the Navy and saw REAL atrocities so awful that the stuff at AG and the alleged crap at Gitmo wouldn't even show up on radar. The stuff I saw gave me nightmares. I'm tired of seeing one side (the Neo-cons Republicans) using our folks in uniform to make another nation feel secure and the OTHER party treating them as pariahs. I can't figure out who is more reprehensible. :furious:
As for the Middle East--I'm fed up with the Israelis AND the Arabs. I'm fed up with NYC born and bred Jews that have no problem serving in the IDF, but would never serve in the US Armed Forces. I have no doubts as to where their loyalties are at all. They expect Americans (of any faith) to die for them. The bunch of them ought to be stripped of their US citizenship right now. :biggrin:
My thoughts on that came to a head during the Pollard spy scandal. A lot of folks here on the East Coast thought that the spying wasn't too bad because he (Pollard) was spying for a 'friend'. I coudln't give a tinkers damn WHO he was spying for---he was spying against US! I got fed up with all the NY politicians said that Pollard ought to be released as a favor to Israel. Pollard, like any traitorous scum, ought to be shot.
Bush and Company have royally screwed up---they've run up a deficit of forbidding proportions and are slowly whittling away at any rights we might have. I'm sick at my stomach every time I hear Bush saying we have to "stay the course" This from a man that can't even manage the idiots in his own party! He's a regular Paper Mache tiger---all form, no substance.
Bush has almost assured that we will be having car bombs here----he's letting the perps over the border as I type this.
Sorry about the rant---but this country is getting it from both sides.