← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · neoclassical
Thread ID: 18678 | Posts: 21 | Started: 2005-06-15
2005-06-15 21:28 | User Profile
I often find myself in discussions with handwringing ****tards masquerading as "metalheads" from whom the mere mention of NSBM can induce feverish fits of moralistic posturing about "inclusivity," "tolerance" and other AIDS-laden liberal buzzwords. Typically, their arguments are rooted that metal developed from the blues (via rock), and thus metal "owes" it's existence to blacks. The ludicrous nature of this notion begs for rebuttal.
The basic facts of metal's origins are simple enough. The genre was invented by four white lads from Birmingham, England who began recording in 1969 under the collective moniker "Black Sabbath." It's most significant innovators (Judas Priest, Venom, Slayer, Possessed, Burzum et al.) have all been white. These facts have proven inconvenient for the handwringers, who would like to see metal become their own private musical Rainbow Coalition. Thus, they are forced to let blacks in through the back door, so to speak, through the "metal as a form of the blues" argument. Unfortunately for the forces of tolerance and light, closer examination reveals this argument to be the proverbial load of shit. Metal emerged as a distinct genre precisely BECAUSE it broke free of the limitations of blues rock traditions. Sabbath abandoned the simplicity of blues arrangements and rejected the predictable tonality and chord progressions of the blues and previous rock music. Just as importantly, Sabbath eschewed the sex and relationship obsession characteristic of the blues and early rock in favor of a neo-classical and neo-Romantic preoccupation with creation, chaos and dissolution. In other words, Sabbath, far from owing its existence to "black music" and the blues, made its reputation through the systematic removal of black cultural elements from their sound and creating music grounded wholly in the Aryan tradition.
[url]http://bbs.anus.com/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=001471[/url]
2005-06-16 02:33 | User Profile
Like I keep saying, different strokes for different folks.....if we were all the same we would be in heaven and very bored because we would have nothing to talk about.
I for one don't like that rap crap but heyyyyy I don't have to listen to it if I dont want to....... and neither do you.
2005-06-16 02:50 | User Profile
Heavy metal is like motorcycles. When was the last time you saw a black man riding a motorcycle ? ( that is because of the hereditary ingrained fact of white man riding horses, which negroes did not do. )
2005-06-16 06:06 | User Profile
[QUOTE=neoclassical]
In other words, Sabbath, far from owing its existence to "black music" and the blues, made its reputation through the systematic removal of black cultural elements from their sound and creating music grounded wholly in the Aryan tradition. [/QUOTE] So, White Sabbath did the following: rip off Black music, and make metal in which Satan-worship and racism were to be the order of the day, wholly in the Aryan tradition.
2005-06-16 06:51 | User Profile
[QUOTE=obadiah]So, White Sabbath did the following: rip off Black music, and make metal in which Satan-worship and racism were to be the order of the day, wholly in the Aryan tradition.[/QUOTE] When a black musician succeeds in a white musical genre (e.g. black opera singers or c&w musicians) it's framed as "challenging cultural stereotypes", "succeeding in a stronghold of white dominance", "beating whitey at his own game" or whatever, but when a white musician incorporates any elements into his or her music that have black origins it's "ripping off black music", or "cultural piracy" (a term I heard used against the Beastie Boys). If two cultures come in contact with each other it's inevitable that influences will cross back and forth. Perhaps black blues musicians shouldn't be allowed to play guitars because it's a Spanish invention. And they shouldn't be allowed to use our musical scales either. Stop ripping off our stuff!
2005-06-16 06:58 | User Profile
[QUOTE=obadiah]So, White Sabbath did the following: rip off Black music, and make metal in which Satan-worship and racism were to be the order of the day, wholly in the Aryan tradition.[/QUOTE]
Are you attempting to troll or is this honestly what you believe?
2005-06-16 07:37 | User Profile
[QUOTE=2600]Are you attempting to troll or is this honestly what you believe?[/QUOTE]
Obadiah is our most recent persistent troll who obviously has no life. His shtick is the anti-white racist, pro-black anti-Catholic. We've already banned around eight or nine of his accounts, but he uses AOL so it's hard to IP ban him. I'm sure he'll be gone in this incarnation in a day or so.
2005-06-16 07:41 | User Profile
Though I am completely disgusted at the person he has become, I wouldn't say Doug Pinnick came to metal through the back door. In fact, I'd say he busted through the front door with that 12-string Yamaha bass. :punk:
2005-06-18 08:36 | User Profile
[QUOTE=obadiah]So, White Sabbath did the following: rip off Black music, and make metal in which Satan-worship and racism were to be the order of the day, wholly in the Aryan tradition./QUOTE Although Black Sabbath deliberately cultivated a dark image (in direct response to the hippie lovefest that was going on around them at the time), they were never Satanic. The only song they ever did that sounds even remotely Satanic was [url=http://www.darklyrics.com/lyrics/blacksabbath/blacksabbath.html#4]"N.I.B."[/url], which is actually about the Devil falling in love with a mortal woman. Some of their songs actually sound Christian (e.g., [url=http://www.darklyrics.com/lyrics/blacksabbath/masterofreality.html#2]"After Forever"[/url]) or at least anti-evil (e.g., [url=http://www.darklyrics.com/lyrics/blacksabbath/blacksabbath.html#8]"Wicked World"[/url], [url=http://www.darklyrics.com/lyrics/blacksabbath/paranoid.html#1]"War Pigs"[/url]).
(2) Black Sabbath never touched on racial issues in any of their songs, so they were hardly "racist." And their guitarist, Tony Iommi, has even worked with members of Body Count (of "Cop Killer" fame -- one of their good songs, actually) recently. Look it up if you don't believe me.
The moral of this story is that you don't know what you're talking about.
BTW: Yes, Black Sabbath started as a blues band, and blacks played a major role in the development of the blues. So what? You think blacks started playing blues in a vacuum, with no influences of their own? Sabbath took blues and made it into something (arguably) better. It's kind of like the way ALL music probably started in Africa with Negroes playing bongo drums but was later developed into much more sophisticated forms by the more intelligent races.
2005-06-18 09:28 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Angler]It's kind of like the way ALL music probably started in Africa with Negroes playing bongo drums but was later developed into much more sophisticated forms by the more intelligent races.[/QUOTE]
Seems like the best way to get along is to just assume that blacks invented everything and at some point evil whites stole or co-opted it.
2005-06-18 10:10 | User Profile
I seem to recall hearing on NPR an interview with a fellow who discovered that the roots of Black American music - Gospel, Blues, Jazz, etc. - go back not to Africa, but to the Hebrides Islands in Scotland, ie, Black slaves imported to the USA adopted white musical traditions and made them their own; so if whites in turn adopt Black American musical traditions and make them their own in turn, this is simply a case of like returning to like.
Ah; here, thanks to Google, is the source I was referring to above:
[url]http://www.rense.com/general41/dehb.htm[/url]
Invented Church Spirituals By Paul Kelbie Scotland Correspondent The Independent - UK 9-19-3
A study into the roots of gospel music by an American professor has lead the accomplished musician, who has played with Duke Ellington and Dizzy Gillespie, to conclude that the "good news" music sung in black American churches originated from Scotland, not Africa.
Professor Willie Ruff, of Yale University, said the roots of the music derived from evangelical spirituals and blues and jazz, had more to do with the crofters of the Outer Hebrides than slaves on US plantations.
For years the accepted wisdom has been that gospel music was born during the period of slavery in the Deep South. But Professor Ruff conceded that his findings have startled a number of elders in black churches.
"They have always assumed that this form of worship came from Africa," Professor Ruff, an Afro-American professor of music, said. "Black Americans have lived under a misconception. Our cultural roots are more Afro-Gaelic than Afro-American. Just look at the Harlem telephone book, it's more like Edinburgh or the book for the North Uists.
"There is a notion that when African slaves arrived in America they came down the gangplanks of slave ships singing gospel music - that's just not true. What I'm talking about here pre-dates all other congregational singing by blacks in America."
Traditional psalm singing, or "precenting the line" as it is correctly known, in which the psalms are called out and the congregation sings a response, was the earliest form of congregational singing adopted by Africans in America. Even today, psalm singing and gospel music are the backbone of black churchgoers in the US, with CD sales alone worth half a billion dollars last year.
But Professor Ruff, 71, a Baptist from Alabama, said: "I, like everyone else, assumed it was unique to black congregations in the United States, having grown out of slavery, but I began to wonder if it was performed by white congregations in the same way," he said.
He began researching at the Sterling library at Yale, one of the world's greatest collections of books and papers, where he found records of how Highlanders settled in North Carolina in the 1700s.
"Scottish emigrants from the Highlands, and the Gaelic speaking Hebrides especially, arrived in parts of North Carolina in huge numbers and for many years during the slavery period black Africans, owned by Scottish emigrants, spoke only the Gaelic language. I found, in a North Carolina newspaper dated about 1740, an advertisement offering a generous reward for the capture and return of a runaway African slave who is described as being easy to identify because he only speaks Gaelic. There is no doubt the great influx of Scots Presbyterians into the Carolinas introduced the African slaves to Christianity and their way of worship," he said.
But it wasn't until Professor Ruff travelled to Scotland that he became convinced of the similarities after hearing psalm singing in Gaelic. "I was struck by the similarity, the pathos, the emotion, the cries of suffering and the deep, deep belief in a brighter, promising hereafter.
"It makes sense that as we got our names from the slave masters, we carried the slave owners blood, their religion and their customs, that we should have adopted and adapted their music. There are more descendants of Highland Scots living in America than there are in the Highlands - and a great many of them are black.
"I have been to Africa many times in search of my cultural identity, but it was in the Highlands that I found the cultural roots of black America."
Jamie Reid-Baxter, a history research fellow at Glasgow University and a psalm expert, said: "The Scottish slave-owners would definitely have brought that style of singing with them and the slaves would have heard it. Both these forms of music are a way of expressing religious ecstasy."
Here's another:
[url]http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=961062003[/url]
Black music from Scotland? It could be the gospel truth
BEN McCONVILLE
THE church elderââ¬â¢s reaction was one of utter disbelief. Shaking his head emphatically, he couldnââ¬â¢t take in what the distinguished professor from Yale University was telling him.
"No," insisted Jim McRae, an elder of the small congregation of Clearwater in Florida. "This way of worshipping comes from our slave past. It grew out of the slave experience, when we came from Africa."
But Willie Ruff, an Afro-American professor of music at Yale, was adamant - he had traced the origins of gospel music to Scotland.
The distinctive psalm singing had not been brought to Americaââ¬â¢s Deep South by African slaves but by Scottish émigrés who worked as their masters and overseers, according to his painstaking research.
Ruff, 71, a renowned jazz musician who played with Duke Ellington and Dizzy Gillespie, is convinced the Florida congregationââ¬â¢s method of praise - called ââ¬Ëpresenting the lineââ¬â¢, in which the psalms are called out and the congregation sings a response - came from the Hebrides.
Ruff explained: "They had always assumed that this form of worship had come from Africa, and why not?
"I said to him I had found evidence that it was Scottish people who brought this to the New World, but he just would not believe it. I asked him what his name was. He said McRae, and I just replied: ââ¬ËThere you goââ¬â¢."
Psalm singing and gospel music are the backbone of the black Church in the United States, with gospel music CD sales alone worth half a billion dollars last year. Ruffââ¬â¢s research has massive cultural implications for Afro-Americans and alters the history of American culture.
He said: "We as black Americans have lived under a misconception. Our cultural roots are more Afro-Gaelic than Afro-American. Just look at the Harlem phone book, itââ¬â¢s more like the book for North Uist.
"We got our names from the slave masters, we got our religion from the slave masters and we got our blood from the slave masters.
"None of the black people in the United States are pure African. My own great great grandparents were slaves in Alabama. My grandmotherââ¬â¢s maiden name was Robertson.
"I have been to Africa many times in search of my cultural identity, but it was in the Highlands that I found the cultural roots of black America.
"I hope to inform the perception of Afro-Americans, and what a gift that is, to give people something to go on.
One of the great tragedies of the Afro-American experience is that few can trace their families beyond the bill of sale. After that itââ¬â¢s vague: the name of a ship and never the port of embarkation. The watery highway that those ships took leave no trace."
Ruff added: "There are probably more descendents of the Highlands in the United States than there are in Scotland. There are a huge amount of Afro-Americans with light skin or red hair like Malcolm X. What were his origins?
"Storytelling and music are some of the best ways to document the true integration and movement of people, because the music canââ¬â¢t lie."
Ruffââ¬â¢s journey of discovery started as a child in his home Baptist church in Alabama, when he would listen to elders present the line, which predates, and was an influence on, gospel music.
"I remember this captured my imagination as a small child. The elders, some born into slavery, say the lines in unison. They were dirge-like, impassioned melodies. They were illiterate and poor, they had nothing, but they had that passion in their singing. I, like everyone else, assumed it was unique to black congregations in the United States, having grown out of slavery."
But last year, during a casual visit to the Presbyterian church in Cumberland, Alabama, Ruff stumbled on a predominantly black congregation that sang the same way as the Baptist congregation of his childhood.
"Not only were they singing the same psalms, they were singing in the same deeply profound way, with the same passion which cries out. The tears began to flow."
They believed the method of worship came from Africa, but Ruff started to ask whether white Presbyterian congregations sang in the same way.
The academic began researching at the Sterling Library at Yale, one of the worldââ¬â¢s greatest collections of books and papers. He found records detailing how Highlanders had settled in North Carolina in the 1700s. I found evidence of slaves in North Carolina who could speak only Gaelic. I also heard the story of how a group of Hebrideans, on landing at Cape Fear, heard a Gaelic voice in the dialect of their village. When they rounded the corner they saw a black man speaking the language and assumed they too would turn that colour because of the sun. When I made these connections, I thought: ââ¬ËThatââ¬â¢s it, Iââ¬â¢m going to the Hebrides."
A chance meeting with James Craig, a piper with the Royal Scots, put Ruff in touch with congregations in Lewis and Donald Morrison, a leader of singing.
"When I finally met Donald, we sat down and I played him music. It was like a wonderful blind test. First I played him some psalms by white congregations, and then by a black one. He then leapt to his feet and shouted: ââ¬ËThatââ¬â¢s us!ââ¬â¢
"When I heard Donald and his congregation sing in Stornoway I was in no doubt there was a connection."
Yesterday, Jamie Reid-Baxter, a history research fellow at Glasgow University and a psalm expert, said: "This sounds extremely plausible because of the link to the Scottish slave-owners, who would definitely have brought that style of singing with them.
"The slaves would have heard the Scots singing like that, and both these forms of music are a way of expressing religious ecstasy. Itââ¬â¢s an intriguing idea."
Warwick Edwards, a reader in the music department of Glasgow University, added: "Psalm singing from the Western Isles is certainly known in America. Whether you can link that up with gospel music is another matter. Itââ¬â¢s new to me.
"One should never underestimate the longevity of these deep-down traditions. They cross oceans and people should be encouraged to investigate this further."
Ruffââ¬â¢s research on the integration of Highland culture into black America expands conventional wisdom on Scotlandââ¬â¢s legacy in the southern states of America.
Although the Enlightenment, especially Francis Hutchesonââ¬â¢s A System of Moral Philosophy, inspired the abolitionists in both Britain and America, Scotlandââ¬â¢s darker role in the slave trade is also well known. Scots were influential in founding the Ku Klux Klan, including the traditional Scottish symbol of the burning cross and the KKKââ¬â¢s oath ceremony, which originated from a Highland custom.
Ruff said: "There will be Scots who are uncomfortable with the relationship and the involvement in the slave trade. But the Scots are like anyone, and there were many who were abolitionists and who set up schools for black children after emancipation."
While Ruffââ¬â¢s claim has been welcomed in Scotland, it has been met with a far less favourable response in his native country.
Bobby Jones, producer of the weekly Gospel Explosion television programme which reaches more than four million viewers in the United States, is not swayed by Ruffââ¬â¢s argument. "Gospel music is black music," he insists.
Ruffââ¬â¢s next mission is to return to Scotland to document and record the congregations of Lewis.
"Iââ¬â¢ll be there later this year and hope to record them there and also make recordings of American congregations. In another 100 years I doubt this form of worship will still be around. Itââ¬â¢s sad to say that on both sides of the Atlantic this is dying out.
"In the Hebrides there are few young people in the churches and this is also the case in the States. In a sense, I aim to preserve a legacy."
The lasting legacy of Ruffââ¬â¢s research is an anthropological revelation which forces the re-evaluation of the history of two peoples. Now Afro-Americans, frustrated in their search for antecedence in their African line, might turn to their Scottish roots. As Ruff said: "Why did they leave this to a musician? This is the job of an anthropologist."
And another:
[url]http://merecomments.typepad.com/merecomments/2005/02/black_church_si.html[/url] February 26, 2005 Black Church Music from Scotland?
I wondered if there was any truth to a news story from Religion News Service sent to me by David Mills: ââ¬ÅProfessor Traces Gospel Singing Style of African-Americans to Scotlandââ¬Â by Chuck McCutcheon, undated. David knows Iââ¬â¢m half Scot (and therefore half sane) so when he sees something about Scots, he often passes it along. (My favorite pass-along story, though it wasnââ¬â¢t from David, had something to do with an injury, a broken window, and a flying haggis.) Anyway, the article had a link, where you can download a few clips from a CD, Salm 1, at the website for Traditional Gaelic Psalm singing from the Hebrides.
I downloaded a few files and played them at work. A coworker who grew up in the South heard the Psalm singing and said, ââ¬ÅThat's African-American, southern signing, isnââ¬â¢t it?ââ¬Â Well, I fooled him. After making sure he really thought that was the case, I told him these were recorded at a church in the Scottish Hebrides. White church music.
Would this play in America? Apparently a version of it still does, in a dwindling number of African-American churches. Tens of thousands of Scots Highlanders emigrated to the American South in the late 1700s and early 1800s, bringing their Gaelic psalm-chants. Many came to own slaves. And this is what the slaves heard in church (usually sitting up in the balcony). All this is according to the RNS article.
The CD Salm I was recorded in Back Free Church on the Isle of Lewis, Scotland, over two evenings in Oct of 2003, with a congregation of approx. 350 on night one, and 500 on night two, these being led by 25 different precentors. Without rehearsal. Listen for yourself also to the clips from the Salm II CD.
They are done in a chant style that must be easy to pick up if you simply spend time in the church service and sing with everyone else. In this particular style of singing the Psalms, the sum is greater than the parts. I admit itââ¬â¢s a bit outside the range of our contemporary taste. But itââ¬â¢s different enough, some might even say otherworldly enough that, who knows, some of the younger generation might take to it instead of the quickly-dating contemporary music their parents are listening to. I would never have thought I would appreciate Byzantine Chant, but now I do.
The style of singing does give the lines of the Psalms, well, something like weightiness, even ââ¬Åsoul.ââ¬Â The CDs, by the way, can be purchased through the website. Itââ¬â¢s tempting. But itââ¬â¢s not like anything most readers have heard, at least not in church.
2005-06-18 11:16 | User Profile
[QUOTE=neoclassical]I often find myself in discussions with handwringing ****tards masquerading as "metalheads" from whom the mere mention of NSBM can induce feverish fits of moralistic posturing about "inclusivity," "tolerance" and other AIDS-laden liberal buzzwords. Typically, their arguments are rooted that metal developed from the blues (via rock), and thus metal "owes" it's existence to blacks. The ludicrous nature of this notion begs for rebuttal. [/QUOTE]
IMHO, metal is a Aryanization force within rock moving towards classical music and away from any negro influences. No doubt about it, especially, neo-classical metal.
Try some of these free clips:
[url]http://www.guitar9.com/inthenameofbach.html[/url] [url]http://www.guitar9.com/paradiselost.html[/url] [url]http://www.theodoreziras.com/video_clips.html[/url] [url]http://www.guitar9.com/2001ashred.html[/url]
2005-06-19 05:23 | User Profile
BTW: Yes, Black Sabbath started as a blues band, and blacks played a major role in the development of the blues. So what? You think blacks started playing blues in a vacuum, with no influences of their own? Sabbath took blues and made it into something (arguably) better. It's kind of like the way ALL music probably started in Africa with Negroes playing bongo drums but was later developed into much more sophisticated forms by the more intelligent races.[/QUOTE] It's almost amusing how sensitive some white folks are when it comes to the shaky foundations of their superiority complex-OR WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT. "The more intelligent races" developed their "sophisticated" music from the "negro" "bongo drums". Why didn't the superbrainy whites invent the drum themselves? When I work with concepts and ideas I study the work of others who are relatively as smart as I, and begin to study their mistakes, learn from, and possibly expand on their ideas. But their ideas were the starting point. You see, I don't have to say I'm dumber or smarter than any of my past teachers. Rarely do I see people learning from monkeys or from the mentally retarded.
2005-06-19 05:29 | User Profile
[QUOTE=wild_bill]IMHO, metal is a Aryanization force within rock moving towards classical music and away from any negro influences. No doubt about it, especially, neo-classical metal[url="http://l"]l[/url][/QUOTE].
If classical music is so great (I'm not saying you are saying it is, but you seem to champion the "aryanization" of rock), why did white people stray from it, gravitate to the "negro" music ROCK, and are know putting forth the effort to do the impossible: seperate rock from "negro influences"?
2005-06-19 07:03 | User Profile
[QUOTE=obadiah].
If classical music is so great (I'm not saying you are saying it is, but you seem to champion the "aryanization" of rock), why did white people stray from it, gravitate to the "negro" music ROCK, and are know putting forth the effort to do the impossible: seperate rock from "negro influences"?[/QUOTE]
I think one of the reasons for the popularity of rock and roll in the early days were because of the recent invention and mass-production of the electric guitar by Fender and the fact that rock and roll is a very simple form of music that can be learned by anyone. So with electric instruments and amplification, three or four guys could make a lot of sound.
Some people mistakenly think electric guitars were developed to play rock and roll music, but the fact is they preceded rock and roll by years. The first Fender electric guitar was marketed in the late 1940s as a "Spanish guitar" to distinguish it from the lap or "Hawaiian" guitars.
Although, the negroes adapted western music to create their simple blues and this was in-turn used as the basis of rock and roll, I think the movement has generally been away from the negro blues forms. Many musicians who learn basic rock and roll get bored with it and start looking at other music genres. In the guitar magazines one will hear comments to the effect that "the blues" is a dying genre. People just aren't much interested in this kind of music anymore. Nowadays, blues bands are pretty much restricted to niche audiances. Metal, in its various sub-genres, is the dominant rock form nowadays.
2005-06-19 14:33 | User Profile
QUOTE=Angler Although Black Sabbath deliberately cultivated a dark image (in direct response to the hippie lovefest that was going on around them at the time), they were never Satanic. The only song they ever did that sounds even remotely Satanic was [url="http://www.darklyrics.com/lyrics/blacksabbath/blacksabbath.html#4"]"N.I.B."[/url], which is actually about the Devil falling in love with a mortal woman. Some of their songs actually sound Christian (e.g., [url="http://www.darklyrics.com/lyrics/blacksabbath/masterofreality.html#2"]"After Forever"[/url]) or at least anti-evil (e.g., [url="http://www.darklyrics.com/lyrics/blacksabbath/blacksabbath.html#8"]"Wicked World"[/url], [url="http://www.darklyrics.com/lyrics/blacksabbath/paranoid.html#1"]"War Pigs"[/url])....[/QUOTE]Black Sabbath is truly one of a kind. There will never be another group like Ozzy and the boys. Other than a few songs by Iron Maiden and Judas Priest, I've never really bothered listening to any other heavy metal group.
2005-06-20 01:35 | User Profile
IS "WHITE LION". IS THEIR NAME BASED ON RACIAL :dung: , OR NOT, DOES ANYONE KNOW?
2005-06-20 02:08 | User Profile
[QUOTE=obadiah]IS "WHITE LION". IS THEIR NAME BASED ON RACIAL :dung: , OR NOT, DOES ANYONE KNOW?[/QUOTE] "White" Lion? You even have to ask?
I would promptly throw all their albums away, to avoid the evil taint of racism from darkening my door.
2005-06-20 02:20 | User Profile
Incidentally, metal is much more popular in Europe than in the US. Can it be due to their not adoping niggerized "music" pushed by media zhids as readily as American wiggers?
It's a sad state of affairs when parents would rather their children be into metal than monkey "music".
2005-06-20 05:08 | User Profile
[QUOTE=madrussian] It's a sad state of affairs when parents would rather their children be into metal than monkey "music".[/QUOTE]
There's some metal which is pretty good. I mean the neo-classical kind. Much of it is more or less straight classical but played on an electric guitar.
I don't avocate crap like Limp Bizkit, POD, Korn, and Linkin Park.
2005-06-20 05:16 | User Profile
Don't get me wrong, I like metal. I was talkinga about "average" parent.