← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · SARTRE
Thread ID: 18084 | Posts: 14 | Started: 2005-05-03
2005-05-03 14:27 | User Profile
While You Slept - John T. Flynn
A guide by Mark Gaines, a member of the Nockian remnant
Today conservatives often support an aggressive and interventionist foreign policy and increased domestic spending while ignoring the unbalanced budgets and permanent deficits that result. However, before this present day conservatism, there was an older conservatism that was anti-interventionist on foreign policy and which believed in a small, frugal government with low spending and balanced budgets. This earlier form of conservatism coalesced in reaction to Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal and his bringing America into World War II. This group of conservatives consisted of a now mostly forgotten but often brilliant group of journalists, free market economists and politicians whose criticisms of Roosevelt could easily be applied to the current Bushian brand of conservatism. First, among the political journalists of this period would be included Garet Garrett, John T. Flynn and Albert Jay Nock, all of whom wrote for a number of publications and whose articles and lectures have been collected in book form.
'Salvos Against the New Deal' 'Forgotten Lessons: Selected Essays by John T. Flynn' 'Memoirs of a superfluous man' 'Defend America First: The Antiwar Editorials of the Saturday Evening Post, 1939-1942' 'The Roosevelt Myth' 'Our Enemy, the State'
The Old Right economic program was put forth by the Austrian emigres Ludwig von Mises and Friedrich Hayek, the American Henry Hazlitt and others.
'Omnipotent Government: The Rise of the Total State and Total War' 'The Road to Serfdom' 'Economics in One Lesson: The Shortest and Surest Way to Understand Basic Economics'
In addition to these male writers, the Old Right also contained a number of talented female writers such as Ayn Rand, Isabel Paterson and Rose Wilder Lane.
'The Fountainhead' 'The God of the Machine' 'Discovery of Freedom: Man's Struggle Against Authority'
Finally, the Old Right had its own periodical, the American Mercury, started by H.L. Mencken and its own newspaper, the Chicago Tribune, published by Colonel Robert McCormick. Among politicians its leading figure was probably Robert Taft.
'Mencken Chrestomathy' 'The Colonel: The Life and Legend of Robert R. McCormick, 1880-1955' 'Mr. Republican;: A biography of Robert A. Taft'
The Old Right passed away in the years after World War II but its spirit still lived on in the great Austrian school economist, writer and polemicist Murray Rothbard and his disciples such as Justin Raimondo and Lew Rockwell.
'For a New Liberty: The Libertarian Manifesto' 'Reclaiming the American Right: The Lost Legacy of the Conservative Movement' 'Speaking of Liberty'
[url]http://www.oldright.com/2005/03/so-youd-like-to-learn-about-old-right.html[/url]
2005-05-04 07:44 | User Profile
[QUOTE=SARTRE]The Old Right economic program was put forth by the Austrian emigres Ludwig von Mises and Friedrich Hayek, the American Henry Hazlitt and others.
'Omnipotent Government: The Rise of the Total State and Total War' 'The Road to Serfdom' 'Economics in One Lesson: The Shortest and Surest Way to Understand Basic Economics'
In addition to these male writers, the Old Right also contained a number of talented female writers such as Ayn Rand, Isabel Paterson and Rose Wilder Lane.
'The Fountainhead' 'The God of the Machine' 'Discovery of Freedom: Man's Struggle Against Authority'
Finally, the Old Right had its own periodical, the American Mercury, started by H.L. Mencken and its own newspaper, the Chicago Tribune, published by Colonel Robert McCormick. Among politicians its leading figure was probably Robert Taft.
'Mencken Chrestomathy' 'The Colonel: The Life and Legend of Robert R. McCormick, 1880-1955' 'Mr. Republican;: A biography of Robert A. Taft'
The Old Right passed away in the years after World War II but its spirit still lived on in the great Austrian school economist, writer and polemicist Murray Rothbard and his disciples such as Justin Raimondo and Lew Rockwell.
'For a New Liberty: The Libertarian Manifesto' 'Reclaiming the American Right: The Lost Legacy of the Conservative Movement' 'Speaking of Liberty'
[url]http://www.oldright.com/2005/03/so-youd-like-to-learn-about-old-right.html[/url][/QUOTE]This sounds to me very much like a paleolibertarian's perspective on "The Old Right". Not only that, but the strong emphasis on the Austrian School types like Von Mises and Hayek emphasize it seems to me the part of the Old Right that has been always most praised by mainstream business-libertarians like the WSJ and Cato Institute, which have profound weaknesses toward neo-conservatism, and whose "economicism" has always been viewed with suspicion by many other Old Right conservatives, well before paleoconservatism.
It strikes me as continuing in one sense the "fusionist" approach of National Review's Frank Meyer and W.F. Buckley in the 50's.
2005-05-04 13:00 | User Profile
Okiereddust,
PaleoLibertarians should be natural allies. The departing issues are usually over Free Trade, Immigration, the role of the State and God.
Since Robert Taft's era has faded into memory, where will the new blood for a rebirth of the Old Right come from and who are the probable segments that could open to the message?
Efforts to dialogue with dissenting progressives is practically useless. Doing business with mainstream GOP is a joke.
Submit that paleoconservatives should not give up on paleolibertarians.
What other options are realistic?
SARTRE
2005-05-04 16:39 | User Profile
[QUOTE=SARTRE]Okiereddust,
PaleoLibertarians should be natural allies. The departing issues are usually over Free Trade, Immigration, the role of the State and God.
Since Robert Taft's era has faded into memory, where will the new blood for a rebirth of the Old Right come from and who are the probable segments that could open to the message?
Francis's MAR's was one approach of course.
Efforts to dialogue with dissenting progressives is practically useless. Doing business with mainstream GOP is a joke.
Submit that paleoconservatives should not give up on paleolibertarians.
What other options are realistic?
SARTRE[/QUOTE]They should work together and usually do. Just occasionally it is necessary to remind the mainstream that the movements aren't synonymous, as Francis pointed out when people like David Frum equated the writings of a Justin Raimondo and similar anti-war libertarians ipso-facto with "paleoconsrvatism".
2005-05-04 17:35 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Okiereddust] They should work together and usually do. Just occasionally it is necessary to remind the mainstream that the movements aren't synonymous, as Francis pointed out when people like David Frum equated the writings of a Justin Raimondo and similar anti-war libertarians ipso-facto with "paleoconsrvatism".[/QUOTE] I agree. They overlap substantially concerning many policy issues, but they have fundamentally different viewpoints. I think you'd have to agree that Ayn Rand is not 'conservative' in any meaningful sense.
2005-05-04 20:41 | User Profile
Okiereddust,
Most folks know that our agreement with antiwar.com has a firm basis upon an American First foreign policy. When it comes to social values, the divide becomes evident. Now what similarities can be found with mainstream pseudo conservatives?
Get invites to new conservative sites frequently. Left over a dozen defenders of the Bush regime who claim to be conservative. Few know their history and even less believe in the values and principles of the nationââ¬â¢s founding.
The common ground has been destroyed, because of their devotion to a GOP control of government.
Since democratic voting options are next to none, and ââ¬ËPCââ¬â¢ loyalty tests abound, what are the prospects for persuasion? Intellectual integrity is sorely lacking from the ribbon flag wavers.
Each day the Old Right is attacked because real solutions are dangerous to the established order. How can separation be achieved when all the power is held in hands of phony conservatives, with hunger progressives waiting for their turn?
If despotism is the only reality for the future, how can the remnant acquire the means to live apart from the tyranny that is official policy?
The dispensationalist canââ¬â¢t be allies for the obvious reason. So why donââ¬â¢t paleoconservatives start working together and get serious? If the Minute Men can produce results, why not develop cooperation with the Old Right message?
Developing a submission service for well crafted essays would expand the presentation for the ideas. If the ordinary citizens reject the arguments, then doom will surely follow. Regretfully, few are willing to band together as we each slowly sink individually.
SARTRE
2005-05-05 04:27 | User Profile
[QUOTE=SARTRE]Okiereddust,
Most folks know that our agreement with antiwar.com has a firm basis upon an American First foreign policy. When it comes to social values, the divide becomes evident. Now what similarities can be found with mainstream pseudo conservatives?
Get invites to new conservative sites frequently. Left over a dozen defenders of the Bush regime who claim to be conservative. Few know their history and even less believe in the values and principles of the nation’s founding.
The common ground has been destroyed, because of their devotion to a GOP control of government. True enough. We've all experienced it.
Since democratic voting options are next to none, and ‘PC’ loyalty tests abound, what are the prospects for persuasion? Intellectual integrity is sorely lacking from the ribbon flag wavers.
Again true enough.
Each day the Old Right is attacked because real solutions are dangerous to the established order. How can separation be achieved when all the power is held in hands of phony conservatives, with hunger progressives waiting for their turn?
If despotism is the only reality for the future, how can the remnant acquire the means to live apart from the tyranny that is official policy?
Survivalist tactics maybe?
The dispensationalist can’t be allies for the obvious reason. So why don’t paleoconservatives start working together and get serious? If the Minute Men can produce results, why not develop cooperation with the Old Right message?
Developing a submission service for well crafted essays would expand the presentation for the ideas. If the ordinary citizens reject the arguments, then doom will surely follow. Regretfully, few are willing to band together as we each slowly sink individually. Well the minutemen seem to have suceeded in getting publicity. Could a paleoconservative website do the same thing? Are writing more essays for each other to read going to have an impact similar to Minuteman? I think they're apples and oranges. but I still think its a good pursuit, and certainly much more effective than hanging around PC sites for the limited time before you get kicked off.
2005-05-05 12:59 | User Profile
Okiereddust,
While full blown civil disobedience is long over due, publicly listing specifics defies the risk/reward standard. Sadly the general public would gladly vote or approve another increase in the prison population. Never claimed that writing will change the mindset or save even a small portion of the world. Nor will the constant battle with bureaucrats. Just got a 33% increase in vacant land assessment so the next conflict begins soon. Last court case took over three years, finally won, than the town attorney reneged on total agreed reimbursement for overpayment. Arbitration method requires waving court rights to sue.
Yes the local supervisor left office and the town assessor was fired, but the town attorney still represents the jurisdiction. Now this latest assessment is in a different township. Land value has not increased in market value over the 35 years in the area. The tax rate on vacant land has gone up 4 fold in the 25 years.
28 years ago as chairman of the planning commission a different town attorney (a regular customer and close friend) refused to sue NYS over repressive zoning regulations. Mayor was also a good customer and solid friend, would not press the case.
Running and winning office would not change the attitudes. Prior experience on a state senatorââ¬â¢s staff proved the fruitlessness of changing legislation when the power resides in NYC interests.
Up to this point jury is opt on: [QUOTE]ââ¬ÅCould a paleoconservative website do the same thing?ââ¬Â [/QUOTE] However, without the quality content and sensible arguments, what chance is there to reach the marginal minds and strengthen the weak backbones of your neighbors?
A submission service could package several paleo columnists together and pitch the content as reciprocal themes that push home the same message. The fact that new sites are always looking for quality content means that different people may become introduced to the ideas.
We have all seen the demise of popular conservative sites with their water downed timid viewpoints and essential errors in editorial selection. BATR ( http:// batr.net ) will soon post and publish a PHP format for features columnists. Hope you will start writing again.
Open to any reasonable action ideas. History demonstrates that few are willing to take the leap.
SARTRE
2005-05-08 04:52 | User Profile
[QUOTE=SARTRE]Okiereddust,
PaleoLibertarians should be natural allies. The departing issues are usually over Free Trade, Immigration, the role of the State and God. I'd like to add that this is a pretty substantial list, in terms of items of importance. It includes practically everything people hold dear really. (In fact I'm a little surprised you put immigration on there. I assumed this was an issue where paleolib's [I]a la[/I]Hoppe differ from mainstream libertarians. Am I wrong?)
In any event, you might look over the list I have here assembled under the "Old Right Portal" of some now forgotten but them prominent authors of the old time American right, and compare it with the Gaines list of "the Old Right" for a better understanding of the old right for a better overview of the term. Gaines list of "Old Right" is more like that really of historical libertarian figures really. In a a way it almost seems like the treatment mainstream/neoconservatives give to modern paleoconservatives - by and large just ignored.
Since Robert Taft's era has faded into memory, where will the new blood for a rebirth of the Old Right come from and who are the probable segments that could open to the message? Well its interesting, starting with Gaines list, your list of course is different, figuring in Robert Taft.
In any event, this question is similar to that asked by my signature piece author.
Efforts to dialogue with dissenting progressives is practically useless. Doing business with mainstream GOP is a joke.
Submit that paleoconservatives should not give up on paleolibertarians.
What other options are realistic?
SARTRE[/QUOTE]Clearly its important to work together as much as possible practically. At the same time, it is important to recognize that, as with other rightist factions, similaritities between different factions can be overemphasized and differences glossed over. At times it can seem the only thing different groups have in common is negative opposition to the present system. It takes a really strong and gifted leader like Sam Francis to bridge these types of differences, and create what amounts to a working synthesis, as well as working toward a practical working coalition. The broad right clearly lacks such now.
2005-05-08 10:47 | User Profile
Okiereddust,
Please post the url for the Gaines list. Unable to find it.
Many purest Libertarians seek to deal with intellectual abstraction while ignoring practical real world consequences. The issue over immigration often reflects a serious lack of self-interest and certainly a disdain for tradition cultural principles.
We advocate America First, which translates into separation from contamination elements that eat away the pillars of Western European civilization. Utopian Libertarians accept decay if personal choice is unlimited. How can you deal with a Libertarian that defends Pro Choice?
Likewise, only a marginal mind would accept diverse contradictory cultures as progress. An open society under those conditions guarantee that the lowest common dominator becomes an acceptable standard.
Paleoconservatives should hate and fear the State. However, local control for sensible discrimination is the only coarse for mutual survival of our true tradition. Starting with a uniformed English language should be self-evident. Hoppe is right most of the time. Wish the same could be said of many Libertarian sites.
Capitalist (or market) Anarchy is still a tough sell when it lumps every breathing human into the same society. While human nature is constant, cultural values are not all equal. Our position maintains that a reign of terror comes from mixing incompatible communities into a single society that was never meant to assimilate.
SARTRE
2005-05-08 12:04 | User Profile
[QUOTE=SARTRE]PaleoLibertarians should be natural allies. The departing issues are usually over Free Trade, Immigration, the role of the State and God.
Since Robert Taft's era has faded into memory, where will the new blood for a rebirth of the Old Right come from and who are the probable segments that could open to the message?
Efforts to dialogue with dissenting progressives is practically useless. Doing business with mainstream GOP is a joke.
Submit that paleoconservatives should not give up on paleolibertarians.
What other options are realistic?[/QUOTE]
Libertarianism irritates me, but its hard to disagree with a statement that is so self-evident in its truth.
I'm not sure Okie WANTS any allies. Disparaging those who's approach to the problems we face is different from his own seems to be more important to him than our succeeding in doing anything about it. I hope I'm wrong, and in fairness I should note only a suprisingly small portion of his ire has ever been directed at me, but that is rather the impression I have finally gotten. Others have been coming to similar conclusions for literally years, I gather. I like to think he's just an eccentric who places too high a value upon ideoloogical purity tests.
2005-05-08 17:28 | User Profile
Kevin,
Have found Okiereddust consistently correct. Ideology matters because most only have tolerance for secularism. As long as folks understand the basic drill, our mutual goal should be to advance a movement that will liberate our own kind. The problem with isolated pro-active confrontation is that the public will just ignore the reasons for the anti-social behavior.
The only subject that crosses ideological barriers is the anti war issue. Race, religion, social values and even money concerns never seem to unit the dissent. Seems the best that can be achieved is coordinate a few that have the courage to admit the realities of the program we are all forced to endure. Different degrees of distance can be attained, but none of us are able to remove ourselves from the reach of the despotism.
The purpose of Old Right and BATR sites is to encourage the truthful reactionary message to have a forum. Since persuasion seems to reach such small numbers, what kind of organized action will end the temporary balance that allows the nuisance of a few voices of political sanity to still speak out? The day will come when censorship will be official policy. Friends better start working together soon, before none of us are left to carry the message.
SARTRE
2005-05-08 18:12 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Kevin_O'Keeffe]Libertarianism irritates me, but its hard to disagree with a statement that is so self-evident in its truth.
I'm not sure Okie WANTS any allies. Disparaging those who's approach to the problems we face is different from his own seems to be more important to him than our succeeding in doing anything about it. I hope I'm wrong, and in fairness I should note only a suprisingly small portion of his ire has ever been directed at me, but that is rather the impression I have finally gotten. Others have been coming to similar conclusions for literally years, I gather. I like to think he's just an eccentric who places too high a value upon ideoloogical purity tests.[/QUOTE]As to being eccentric, I doubt if anyone on this list would be exempt from that label in general parlance. As to ideological purity, I'm certainly no Walter Yannis or NieNietszche regarding ideoogical purity, and people have pointed that out. I think my big sin in the eyes of most people who have tried to stick that moniker is that I am conscientious in pointing out what people believe and the ideological purity tests others have. For instance I consistently point out the dogmatic hard spot many people have for Buchanan, and suggest it might make real alliances with a lot of WN's difficult, which seemed to irritate a few people.
Similarly, if you remember, I wasn't nearly as sanguine as you Kevin about the problems that rigid ideologues/opportunists (these things are by no means mutually exclusive) live Gliebe would have sharing power, and things turned out to prove me right. I guess you have people in every group that are groupers and splitters. People like you Kevin seem to think Buchananites and Piercites ought to be able to happily work together, and just keep their differences as a few of grandma's idiosynchrocies, something to be kept "within the family". I just think it shouldn't be considered unfamily-like to occasionally point a few unfamily like oddities.
[CENTER][IMG]http://www.storybookonline.net/photos/act5.jpg[/IMG] [I]Kevin O'Keefe admiring friendly radical WN leader (Gliebe?)[/I] [/CENTER]
ââ¬ÅGrandma, what big ears you have!ââ¬Â said Kevin.
ââ¬ÅThe better to hear you with, my dear,ââ¬Â answered the wolf.
ââ¬ÅBut grandma, what big eyes you have!ââ¬Â said Kevin
ââ¬ÅThe better to see you with, my dear.ââ¬Â
"Sounds good to me" said Kevin. :biggrin:
2005-05-08 18:18 | User Profile
[QUOTE=SARTRE]Okiereddust,
Please post the url for the Gaines list. Unable to find it.
I was referring to your original post at the beginning of this thread
[QUOTE]A guide by Mark Gaines, a member of the Nockian remnant [/QUOTE] BTW, who is the Nockian remnant anyway? Sounds like one of those libertarian groups.