← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · Stigmata
Thread ID: 18032 | Posts: 17 | Started: 2005-04-30
2005-04-30 05:27 | User Profile
[size=5][color=yellow]A:[/color] [color=yellow]Christianity[/color][/size] [size=3]Pope's legacy of curbing anti-Semitism[/size]
[size=5][font=Arial][size=2][QUOTE] [/size][/font] [font=Arial]Elected to the chair of Peter, the Polish pope brought a raw experience of the Shoah into the center of his pontificate. He formally recognized the state of Israel, reversing an ancient Christian rejection of the right of Jews to be at home in the Jewish homeland. He befriended Jews, visited synagogues, moved past civility to authentic dialogue, and sponsored a broad reckoning with the Holocaust. Within the church he implemented new guidelines for preaching and teaching designed to eliminate any hint of anti-Semitism.[/font] [font=Arial]At the millennium he insisted on the church's own self-criticism, and he made the momentous apology -- a pope apologizing! -- for the sin of anti-Semitism. The climax of this impulse came with his pilgrimage to Jerusalem, with his visit to Yad Vashem -- "It makes us cry out!" he said. Against the advice of his closest Vatican associates, the pope thus made visible the connection between the Holocaust and Christian history.[/font]
[font=Arial]And then the most historic event of all: After haltingly making his way across that vast plaza in Jerusalem, John Paul II drew close to the Western Wall and revered it. He placed into its stone crevice a piece of paper with the words of his apology. He prayed as a Jew would, without invoking Jesus. More than a holy place, the wall is the last remnant of the temple. Since New Testament times, believing that Jesus is the "New Temple" and that the destruction of the old temple is a proof of Christian claims, Christians had been denigrating the Temple of Israel. In the climax of his pontificate -- of his life -- John Paul II reversed that ancient tradition. Seeing him at the wall, Jews instinctively grasped the significance of the moment. Christians will be understanding what was done that day for years to come. His affirmation of Jewish faith as an ongoing revelation of God mitigates the triumphalist claims of Christian theology, preparing for a far more ecumenical church not only in relation to Jews but toward all.[/font] [font=Arial][size=1][/QUOTE] [/size][/font] [url="http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2003/10/07/popes_legacy_of_curbing_anti_semitism/"][font=Arial][size=1]http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2003/10/07/popes_legacy_of_curbing_anti_semitism/[/size][/font][/url] [/size] [size=5][color=darkgreen]B: Islam[/color][/size] [size=5]3 U.S. soldiers among dead in Iraq attacks
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[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=2]By Thomas Wagner[/size][/font]
[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=2]April 29, 2005 | [/size][/font][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=1]Baghdad, Iraq -- [/size][/font][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=2]Insurgents unleashed a series of car bombings and other attacks across Iraq on Friday, killing at least 41 people, including three U.S. soldiers, and wounding dozens of people a day after the country's first democratically elected government was approved. [/size][/font]
[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=2]Iraq's most-wanted terrorist, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, purportedly threatened more violence in an audiotape on the Internet, warning President Bush the insurgents "will not rest until we avenge our dignity." [/size][/font]
[url="http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2005/04/29/dead/index_np.html"]http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2005/04/29/dead/index_np.html[/url]
2005-04-30 06:02 | User Profile
I think I'm beginning to ââ¬Åget itââ¬Â Stigmata.
You are judging Christianity by the behavior of Christians. I suppose that is reasonable... considering the fact that I judge Jewry by the behavior of Jews. However, the Jews are being consistent with their tradition and doctrine by combating Christians. The Pontiff, on the other hand... violated Christian tradition and Christian doctrine in acquiescing to the Jews.
I believe that there is a significant difference between the two.
:wink:
2005-04-30 06:16 | User Profile
Muslim fanatics have a tremendous amount of faith in their silly beliefs, but that does make them very brave in the face of danger. Not only are those people not afraid to die, they often look forward to it. One could easily argue that many Muslim militants cross the fine line between bravery and stupidity, but such people can certainly inspire fear in their enemies.
2005-04-30 16:07 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Angler]Muslim fanatics have a tremendous amount of faith in their silly beliefs, but that does make them very brave in the face of danger. Not only are those people not afraid to die, they often look forward to it. One could easily argue that many Muslim militants cross the fine line between bravery and stupidity, but such people can certainly inspire fear in their enemies.[/QUOTE] Quite right! Those "silly beliefs" make those who possess those beliefs quite formidable in war. A ââ¬Åfaithââ¬Â does make people stronger. We Whites could learn from this. Look at the situation in Iraq... we have the Iraqis out-financed and out-gunned... and we are still getting our butt kicked. The Iraqi patriots have their faith and they they have the moral high ground in protecting their homeland. We Americans will be lucky to get out of Iraq without starting World War III.
For the sophisticates on this board who think that faith in God is silly and that religion is just a waste of time... let me make a suggestion: ââ¬Åfake it.ââ¬Â The only thing you are doing by promoting secularism is making us weaker. This is exactly what our adversaries want. The fact that certain Christian religious factions have helped our adversaries does not justify throwing the baby out with the bath water. This was never a valid reason for promoting secularism anyway.
If we Whites wish to survive... we had better establish some commonality within our group... in addition to skin color. If we cannot agree on religion... we had better begin to define and develop other group characteristics that will unify us and help us achieve our goals. I dare say that the prospects of a loose collection of disenfranchised colonials with a common genetic code doesn't look good. :cool:
2005-04-30 19:18 | User Profile
Sorry, part of being a white man is being honest and not "faking it". We're going to need to find other common rallying points besides mere religious fanaticism.
2005-04-30 20:10 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Phantasm]Quite right! Those "silly beliefs" make those who possess those beliefs quite formidable in war. A ââ¬Åfaithââ¬Â does make people stronger. I should clarify something here: By "silly beliefs," I was referring to the notion held by many Muslim fanatics that if they die in combat they'll end up in heaven with 72 virgins to screw (or whatever it is they think). I do not think mere belief in God is necessarily silly. It would be hypocritical of me to say so, since I can't claim to know that some kind of God doesn't exist -- particularly the Creator of the Deists. I do find "revealed religions" to be utterly unconvincing, however.
For the sophisticates on this board who think that faith in God is silly and that religion is just a waste of time... I don't think the former, but only the latter.
...let me make a suggestion: ââ¬Åfake it.ââ¬Â I can't do that. I can't engage in willful self-deception by pretending to believe something I don't.
The only thing you are doing by promoting secularism is making us weaker. I'm not trying to deconvert anyone or promote secularism -- I'm just expressing my opinions. In fact, I've sort of resolved to try to avoid getting into religious debates on this board from now on, as some here (not you, Phantasm) are incapable of discussing religion or having tenets of their faith questioned without becoming very emotional. I don't wish to offend anyone.
This is exactly what our adversaries want. I actually find great strength from skepticism, and I am much more likely to do something our adversaries definitely wouldn't want me to do now that I'm no longer a believer in any particular religion or a punishing God.
The fact that certain Christian religious factions have helped our adversaries does not justify throwing the baby out with the bath water. This was never a valid reason for promoting secularism anyway. I agree. Belief or disbelief in any religion should have nothing to do with the actions of that religion's adherents. It should be based on one's interpretation of the evidence for that religion.
If we Whites wish to survive... we had better establish some commonality within our group... in addition to skin color. If we cannot agree on religion... Agreement on one religion will never happen. People have killed each other over whose brand of Christianity is correct. Since no one can prove that *his * version is the right one, it will always be a source of division. Furthermore, many -- who knows, maybe even most -- people who recognize and oppose the Jew are not religious. On this small board alone there's il ragno, AntiYuppie, grep14w, madrussian, myself, and several others. Leave us out and you'll only divide the cause further.
...we had better begin to define and develop other group characteristics that will unify us and help us achieve our goals. I dare say that the prospects of a loose collection of disenfranchised colonials with a common genetic code doesn't look good. :cool:[/QUOTE]I see where you're coming from, but my honest opinion is that the goals of eliminating Jewish/Israeli influence from the US government, halting and reversing the march of multiculturalism, and restoring freedom and decentralized government in this nation are good enough.
2005-04-30 21:20 | User Profile
**The First Holy Hoax has lost almost all of it's credability amongst white people, so the Pope has had to go into the Shoah Biz now. The Shoah has been very profitable for some so why not try it? **
Anyway two Hoaxes are more profitable than one, especially if it makes God's Chosen happy.
[center][img]http://tinypic.com/4sidc3[/img][/center]
[QUOTE=Stigmata][size=5][color=yellow]A:[/color] [color=yellow]Christianity[/color][/size] [size=3]Pope's legacy of curbing anti-Semitism[/size]
Quote:
| [font=Arial]Elected to the chair of Peter, the Polish pope brought a raw experience of the Shoah into the center of his pontificate. He formally recognized the state of Israel, reversing an ancient Christian rejection of the right of Jews to be at home in the Jewish homeland. He befriended Jews, visited synagogues, moved past civility to authentic dialogue, and sponsored a broad reckoning with the Holocaust. Within the church he implemented new guidelines for preaching and teaching designed to eliminate any hint of anti-Semitism.[/font] [font=Arial]At the millennium he insisted on the church's own self-criticism, and he made the momentous apology -- a pope apologizing! -- for the sin of anti-Semitism. The climax of this impulse came with his pilgrimage to Jerusalem, with his visit to Yad Vashem -- "It makes us cry out!" he said. Against the advice of his closest Vatican associates, the pope thus made visible the connection between the Holocaust and Christian history.[/font] [font=Arial]And then the most historic event of all: After haltingly making his way across that vast plaza in Jerusalem, John Paul II drew close to the Western Wall and revered it. He placed into its stone crevice a piece of paper with the words of his apology. He prayed as a Jew would, without invoking Jesus. More than a holy place, the wall is the last remnant of the temple. Since New Testament times, believing that Jesus is the "New Temple" and that the destruction of the old temple is a proof of Christian claims, Christians had been denigrating the Temple of Israel. In the climax of his pontificate -- of his life -- John Paul II reversed that ancient tradition. Seeing him at the wall, Jews instinctively grasped the significance of the moment. Christians will be understanding what was done that day for years to come. His affirmation of Jewish faith as an ongoing revelation of God mitigates the triumphalist claims of Christian theology, preparing for a far more ecumenical church not only in relation to Jews but toward all.[/font] |
[url="http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2003/10/07/popes_legacy_of_curbing_anti_semitism/"][font=Arial][size=1]http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2003/10/07/popes_legacy_of_curbing_anti_semitism/[/size][/font][/url] [size=5][font=Arial][size=2][/size][/font] [/size] [/QUOTE]
2005-04-30 22:15 | User Profile
[QUOTE]Phantasm Quote: If we Whites wish to survive... we had better establish some commonality within our group... in addition to skin color. If we cannot agree on religion... we had better begin to define and develop other group characteristics that will unify us and help us achieve our goals. I dare say that the prospects of a loose collection of disenfranchised colonials with a common genetic code doesn't look good[/QUOTE]
Agreed. What about this for a start?
[QUOTE] Walter Yanis Post:
As far as concrete actions, I think that we need to take our "refusal" as far as we can:
Be white, Christian and English-speaking without apology. Read Shakespeare. Marry white. Surround yourself with white friends. To the extent possible without doing yourself irreparable social damage, associate only with whites. Live in the whitest area you can.
Have kids. The Regime doesn't want you to have kids, and really hates it when you do. Every white kid you have is a finger in the eye of the Regime. Stick it to them good. If at all possible, give your kids a fulltime mom.
Homeschool, if at all possible. If not, get your kids into schools that teach your religion without apology (a tough one for us Catholics). In general, Do as Yggdrasil says and check out culturally as much as possible, taking control over what we watch and who we pay for content.
Get as educated as you can and earn as much money as you can. Go as "high and inside" the power structure that you can without losing your soul. Use your wealth, power and position to network with likeminded whites, and to promote likeminded whites. The pipeline Patrick Henry College has into the CIA, FBI, military and other services is a very, very encouraging sign. Remember Stalin's slogan (the one he used to purge the Jews) "The Cadres Determine Everything." The question is not whether we'll have an army or a CIA, the question is who will control those institutions. They need to belong to us again. We need to be high and inside. We need to chair every meeting of every power institution. We need to infiltrate and subvert the Kosher Regime just like the Koshers subverted the WASP regime and turned it to their own purposes.
If possible, even better than #4, start your own business and hire family and other whites. Get stinking rich and tithe to your church or other institution that believes in the Founders' vision of a white, Christian and English-speaking America. Be a pillar of your community.
Get a place in the country and raise some of your own food. Buy a 20 gague pump shotgun and learn how to use it. Not that you have to live there (although that would be nice) but I think that we all need a place of refuge for when the CRUNCH hits.
Support political measures, even if they masquerade behind universalist slogans, that assist whites in checking out of the Regime's institutions. These include:
school vouchers for religious schools and I think also medical insurance. The entire educational establishment is firmly in the hands of our enemies, we must defund it, kill the bureaucracy and the teachers' unions. We must remove all direct state funding to all institutions of higher learning, and put the money directly in the hands of students or their guardians. This would be a devastating blow against the Jews and their allies. -Resist things like the income tax that tax white earners and transfer their wealth to blacks, browns and Jews for their wars. Work instead for consumption taxes that give Christian homeschool families the right to control how much tax they'll pay by choosing to change their consumption patters. - -Support guys like Tancredo and the Minutemen. Subvert the Republican Party, taking it over one precinct at a time.
Be kind to a fault to your own, be a cynical, grasping prick to all outsiders.
That's the Walter Yannis Program for Racial Survival!
Of all the above, I only approach perfection on #8.[/QUOTE]
Walters post @ this thread: [url]http://www.originaldissent.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17963[/url]
2005-05-01 00:18 | User Profile
[QUOTE=grep14w] We're going to need to find other common rallying points besides mere religious fanaticism.[/QUOTE]grep14w,
This is one group that might [u]not[/u] be a good rallying point, That is unless you like being in a minority!
[u][color=navy]Percentage of Ethnic/Racial Groups in the United States[/u] [u]Who Identify as Catholic[/color][/u] [u][url="http://www.usccb.org/comm/cip.shtml"][size=1]http://www.usccb.org/comm/cip.shtml[/size][/url][/u]
[img]http://www.usccb.org/images/comm/cip/fig3.jpg[/img]
Approximately 39% - or 25 million ââ¬â of U.S. Catholics are Hispanic.12
9%, or 25 of the nation's 281 active bishops, are Hispanic. 6.5% of the nation's 44,487 priests are Hispanic.13
Hispanics make up 41% of all Catholics under age 30, and 44% of all Catholics under age 10.14
Since 1960, 71% of the U.S. Catholic population growth has been due to the growth in the number of Hispanics in the U.S. population overall.15 By the second decade of the 21st century, over 50% of U.S. Catholics will likely be Hispanic.16
The Bureau of Catholic Indian Missions estimates that one in four Native Americans, or approximately 500,000, are baptized Catholics. 17
There are 2.3 million African American Catholics. There are 1,300 parishes which are predominantly African American, 75 of which have African-American pastors. Approximately 250 priests, 300 sisters, and 380 deacons are African American.18
Find out more about the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops at [url="http://www.usccb.org/"][color=#0000ff]www.usccb.org[/color][/url].
2005-05-01 19:30 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Blond Knight]Agreed. What about this for a start? [Walter Yannis] ââ¬ÅAs far as concrete actions, I think that we need to take our "refusal" as far as we can: ... That's the Walter Yannis Program for Racial Survival! ...[/QUOTE] Thank you for bringing this to my attention Blond Knight. Walter Yannis (yet again) is right on target! I agree with everything that he says... and Angler also.
We need to be well educated, wealthy, English-speaking White Christians who associate exclusively with other Whites while homeschooling the kids and being politically active.
And the goals of ââ¬Åeliminating Jewish/Israeli influence from the US government, halting and reversing the march of multiculturalism, and restoring freedom and decentralized government in this nationââ¬Â are certainly a top priority.
Unfortunately, simply trying to adhere to a ââ¬Åthings to doââ¬Â list... isn't going to accomplish anything. Free will and human nature will throw a ââ¬Åwrench into the worksââ¬Â time and time again. There is an abundance of ââ¬Åwell educated, wealthy, English-speaking White Christiansââ¬Â who have no interest in promoting White interests or associating exclusively with other Whites. The interests of these people are ââ¬Åpseudo religious and economic.ââ¬Â There are many home school parents who are oblivious to the ââ¬ÅJew problem...ââ¬Â who fervently believe that they are being politically active just because they vote Republican. Oh, by the way... those home schooled kids will be polluted with multicultural Jew-babble the minute they reach the college campus. And let's be honest... the kids have no resistance to such programming. How could they? Will they refer to some vague notion of what their parents thought about the stars and stripes? Oh well... the best laid plans of mice and men...
If I may be so bold... we Whites need to become something MORE than what we ARE. This is because what we ARE just isn't enough. Anyone who denies this better take a look at our decline as a people over the last century. Our people need a sense of belonging to something more than just a species. Our people need a sense of family outside of their own immediate family. Our people need to feel a sense of kinship and trust within their own community.
Brothers and Sisters... we need to become a TRIBE. If we wish to survive... we must be a cohesive and unified group. In order to be a cohesive and unified group, we must have more in common than just race. In addition to race... we must have a common culture, a common language, and a common religion. We must preserve and promote the Greco-Roman heritage that was left to us by our European predecessors and our Founding Fathers. I would also suggest that we learn Latin and begin adhering to our Christian Faith and traditions [This is one issue that I agree with the Catholics on 100%].
There... I've said it.
:)
2005-05-01 21:20 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Angler]I actually find great strength from skepticism, and I am much more likely to do something our adversaries definitely wouldn't want me to do now that I'm no longer a believer in any particular religion or a punishing God.
Without belief in God, life becomes absurd. After all, what's the point of anything? Specifically, what difference does it really make if white people survive or get wiped out in a hundred years or a thousand years? Who cares, we'll all be dead. Why bother to be good if you can gain some advantage by being evil?
2005-05-02 00:16 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Phantasm]**I think I'm beginning to ââ¬Åget itââ¬Â Stigmata.
You are judging Christianity by the behavior of Christians. I suppose that is reasonable... [/QUOTE] [size=3] [/size] [center][size=3]Yep, it sure is.
[img]http://tinypic.com/4sgtok[/img] [/size]**[/center]
2005-05-02 04:38 | User Profile
[QUOTE=wild_bill]Without belief in God, life becomes absurd. After all, what's the point of anything? This is a fair question that is often asked of nonbelievers.
Well, first of all, I'm not certain that there isn't a God. But let's suppose for a moment that God doesn't exist. Should we then pretend to believe in God anyway in order to avoid the consequences of God's nonexistence (i.e., a meaningless life)? I'd say "no." Belief in God if He doesn't exist only gives life false meaning.
I should also add that belief in God (for me and many other skeptics at least) is not something that is chosen. It's an automatic mental reaction to the available evidence and arguments for the existence of such a Being. Hence, I can't force myself to believe in God just because I don't like the philosophical or practical consequences of His nonexistence. Trust me: I hate the thought of dying and never existing again, but if that's what I think is going to happen someday, then there's nothing I can do about it. If someday I find reason to believe otherwise, then I'll be glad!
So, for now, where do I find meaning in life? The answer is that I give my own life meaning. That meaning might only exist in my head, but it exists somewhere, even if it will die with me. It consists of my values, thoughts, emotions, likes and dislikes, and my overall enjoyment of existence. Love of family and close friends is an important part of the meaning I find in life as well -- the most important part. I think love is nothing but a biochemical phenomenon in the brain, yet it exists and I feel it; therefore, it has meaning for me. The same is true of hatred and other other emotions.
Specifically, what difference does it really make if white people survive or get wiped out in a hundred years or a thousand years? Who cares, we'll all be dead. If God exists and life is eternal, then that's even less reason to care about the extinction of the White race, since everyone will live forever in another world anyway.
Why bother to be good if you can gain some advantage by being evil?[/QUOTE]I believe that the concepts of "good" and "evil" exist only in human beings' minds as genetically-inspired instincts resulting from man's evolution as a social, cooperative being. (I know not everyone accepts evolution, but bear with me here.) I think human morality is nothing but an extension of the primitive moral behavior exhibited by lower social animals (e.g., apes, monkeys, elephants, lions, wolves -- even honeybees, who will sting to protect their nest even though using their stinger kills them). It's worth noting, by the way, that this model makes morality objective. A rough stab at a definition might be something like this: "Moral behavior is the set of actions that contribute to the welfare of the individual and the social group to which he belongs."
So, in general, I think the default choice of most people is to be decent to their fellow man, as such an instinct aids mutual survival against competing "tribes." When someone feels that making a choice for evil greatly outweighs his instinctive choice for good in terms of contributing to his (or relatives') survival, then he might not restrain himself from making that evil choice. That's my hypothesis of "good" and "evil" in a nutshell.
So, to answer the question directly -- why bother to be good if you can gain some advantage by being evil? -- the answer is simply because I usually want to be good. It's an instinct that I believe to be embedded in my genetic makeup and reflected in the structure of my brain, just as it is to a greater or lesser degree with most people, as mentioned above. In any case, what I know for certain is that I feel most comfortable emotionally when I'm decent to people. That doesn't mean there aren't people I despise and would even enjoy hurting, but that's always because I view them as "evil" and a danger to what is "good."
Anyway, I hope that answers your questions without being too long-winded.
2005-05-02 05:20 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Angler]This is a fair question that is often asked of nonbelievers.
Well, first of all, I'm not certain that there isn't a God. But let's suppose for a moment that God doesn't exist. Should we then pretend to believe in God anyway in order to avoid the consequences of God's nonexistence (i.e., a meaningless life)? I'd say "no." Belief in God if He doesn't exist only gives life false meaning.
Religion seems to be a universal human trait. Every culture has its peculiar conception. I don't think that's coincidental. Its not a plot to give false meaning to life, since such an idea assumes that the conspirators have no belief, so what gives their life any purpose? Its an unresolvable dead end of reasoning. This is why I don't go along with the idea that religion is a man-created scam to keep people under someone else's control.
I should also add that belief in God (for me and many other skeptics at least) is not something that is chosen. It's an automatic mental reaction to the available evidence and arguments for the existence of such a Being. Hence, I can't force myself to believe in God just because I don't like the philosophical or practical consequences. Trust me: I hate the thought of dying and never existing again, but if that's what I think is going to happen someday, then there's nothing I can do about it. If someday I find reason to believe otherwise, then I'll be glad!
I think an argument can be made that religion has many survival advantages. I think, if nothing else, Christian people will generally out-reproduce atheists while creating more stable and healthier societies. Even the politicians are lately acknowledging this.
So, for now, where do I find meaning in life? The answer is that I give my own life meaning. That meaning might only exist in my head, but it exists somewhere, even if it will die with me. It consists of my values, thoughts, emotions, likes and dislikes, and my overall enjoyment of existence. Love of family and close friends is an important part of the meaning I find in life as well -- the most important part. I think love is nothing but a biochemical phenomenon in the brain, yet it exists and I feel it; therefore, it has meaning for me. The same is true of hatred and other other emotions.
You have a survival instinct. Most people want to live. But from an intellectual perspective, what difference does it really make whether you survive or not? For a Christian, however, we are here as part of God's plan for human salvation. Even the lowest bum has a responsibility to God. The atheist, regardless of his station in life, has no higher responsibility. I mean, if you never existed, what difference would it make? But Jesus Christ said: "I knew you before you were formed in the womb."
If God exists and life is eternal, then that's even less reason to care about the extinction of the White race, since everyone will live forever in another world anyway.
The fact that the white race exists, means that God created us for some purpose. Traditional Christianity recognizes this.
Salvation is determined by what we do here, not in the next world. Once we die, our situation cannot be changed.
I believe that the concepts of "good" and "evil" exist only in human beings' minds as genetically-inspired instincts resulting from man's evolution as a social, cooperative being. (I know not everyone accepts evolution, but bear with me here.) I think human morality is nothing but an extension of the primitive moral behavior exhibited by lower social animals (e.g., apes, monkeys, elephants, lions, wolves -- even honeybees, who will sting to protect their nest even though using their stinger kills them). It's worth noting, by the way, that this model makes morality objective. A rough stab at a definition might be something like this: "Moral behavior is the set of actions that contribute to the welfare of the individual and the social group to which he belongs."
The problem is people have an infinite capacity for rationalization. We can justify any kind of corruption by imagining that its the right thing. Often its just an excuse to justify personally indulging in evil. In other words, people aren't naturally moral, but mostly tend to be short-sighted and self-serving.
So, to answer the question directly -- why bother to be good if you can gain some advantage by being evil? -- the answer is simply because I usually want to be good. It's an instinct that I believe to be embedded in my genetic makeup and reflected in the structure of my brain, just as it is to a greater or lesser degree with most people, as mentioned above. In any case, what I know for certain is that I feel most comfortable emotionally when I'm decent to people. That doesn't mean there aren't people I despise and would even enjoy hurting, but that's always because I view them as "evil" and a danger to what is "good."
But how much of this can be attributed to your having been raised in a society that inculcated these values into you? I know many people who don't claim to be Christians, but tend to generally live according to Christian values due to cultural acclimation. But when one analyzes their code of ethics, they really have to foundation other than that of cultural conditioning. If that person had been born in other circumstances, his values would be different. Just think of the hideous societies that have existed in the past in which the majority of people evidently supported morality that most would find perverted. I'm thinking of some Baal pagan religions that required the compulsory prostitution of all women in order to fund their religion. Or the ones that worshipped the pagan god Moloch and had large furnaces into which people would throw their babies and children to be burned alive. These people obviously thought this was normal.
2005-05-02 07:13 | User Profile
[QUOTE=wild_bill]Religion seems to be a universal human trait. Every culture has its peculiar conception. I don't think that's coincidental. Its not a plot to give false meaning to life, since such an idea assumes that the conspirators have no belief, so what gives their life any purpose? Its an unresolvable dead end of reasoning. This is why I don't go along with the idea that religion is a man-created scam to keep people under someone else's control. Religions have indeed apparently been around for nearly as long as men have, although they have generally been in extreme contradiction to each other. For as long as belief in gods has existed, there have been those who have used it to take advantage of others. Nevertheless, I don't think the concept of gods or God necessarily arose as a conspiracy to control people (the constructs of heaven and hell are another matter); rather, I think notions about gods first arose as a means by which primitive man attempted to explain natural phenomena. There were gods of lightning, thunder, wind, rain, etc. In some primitive societies there still are such beliefs (African bushmen, for example).
Furthermore, human beings have always had an awareness of death, and it's possible that religious belief (or at least belief in an afterlife) is a psychological response to that awareness that helps people cope.
As an aside, certain animals such as apes and particularly elephants -- animals known to be among the most intelligent of all animals besides human beings -- seem to possess an awareness of death. They mourn their dead and scatter the bones in a manner eerily reminiscent of human burial. It's almost as if their primitive coping mechanisms match their primitive concept of death, just as our highly sophisticated coping methods match our all-too-certain awareness of death.
I think an argument can be made that religion has many survival advantages. I think, if nothing else, Christian people will generally out-reproduce atheists while creating more stable and healthier societies. Even the politicians are lately acknowledging this. I agree that religious belief has definite survival advantages. That's not a reason to subscribe to a religious belief, though. A person should only adhere to a religion if he thinks that religion reflects reality. I have no doubt that most religious people are sincere in their beliefs; I just don't agree with them.
You have a survival instinct. Most people want to live. But from an intellectual perspective, what difference does it really make whether you survive or not? From an intellectual perspective it makes very little difference. The world will still be turning after I die. I accept that. It's true of everyone.
For a Christian, however, we are here as part of God's plan for human salvation. Even the lowest bum has a responsibility to God. The atheist, regardless of his station in life, has no higher responsibility. That's all true, but again, belief in a thing shouldn't be determined by the positive or negative consequences of that thing.
Regarding responsibility: Since I see no reason to believe in any particular supernatural Being watching over me and demanding that I act in this way or that, I take on responsibilities of my own choosing. My most important responsibilities are to my family, followed by close friends. I also have certain principles that I will never willfully violate. These responsibilities are all part of my identity.
I mean, if you never existed, what difference would it make? In the grand scheme of things, very little -- though I'm sure I've affected more than a few individual lives by giving to charity, lending a helping hand here and there, etc. Everyone affects others to some degree.
But Jesus Christ said: "I knew you before you were formed in the womb." I don't think I existed before I was formed in the womb. In any event, I don't see much meaning in being a servant of a God who is all-powerful and has no need of being served, anyway. If God is infinite in all positive respects, then human existence cannot make Him any happier or more fulfilled than He would have been otherwise. It can make no difference to Him whether the entire human race exists or doesn't. How could it, if God was infinitely happy to start with?
The fact that the white race exists, means that God created us for some purpose. Traditional Christianity recognizes this. The white race could also exist as the product of evolution, or perhaps as the creation of an impersonal deist God who made us for no purpose at all.
Salvation is determined by what we do here, not in the next world. Once we die, our situation cannot be changed. I don't buy the idea that human beings have to be saved from God by God because God made us in a flawed manner (i.e., subject to Original Sin -- something God didn't have to allow to be transmitted like a virus). Sorry, but I find the idea extremely farfetched. I would probably never have believed it at all if I hadn't been raised to believe it without question.
The problem is people have an infinite capacity for rationalization. We can justify any kind of corruption by imagining that its the right thing. Often its just an excuse to justify personally indulging in evil. In other words, people aren't naturally moral, but mostly tend to be short-sighted and self-serving. I think most people are naturally moral as a result of instinct, but I agree with you in a way -- people will often use their conscious minds to rationalize away the promptings of conscience and convince themselves that "wrong is right."
But how much of this can be attributed to your having been raised in a society that inculcated these values into you? I know many people who don't claim to be Christians, but tend to generally live according to Christian values due to cultural acclimation. I don't think many so-called "Christian values" are unique to Christianity at all. For example, prohibitions against murder and theft long predate Christianity and even Judaism. And again, some principles of moral behavior aren't even unique to human beings. There are certain kinds of "upright" behavior that are so instinctive that even the more intelligent of the lower animals generally follow them (e.g., care for your family members and others in your social group).
But when one analyzes their code of ethics, they really have to foundation other than that of cultural conditioning. If that person had been born in other circumstances, his values would be different. Just think of the hideous societies that have existed in the past in which the majority of people evidently supported morality that most would find perverted. I'm thinking of some Baal pagan religions that required the compulsory prostitution of all women in order to fund their religion. Or the ones that worshipped the pagan god Moloch and had large furnaces into which people would throw their babies and children to be burned alive. These people obviously thought this was normal.[/QUOTE]Ah, but the key to the examples you're giving is that they are all examples of religiously-inspired behaviors. Religion is extremely powerful in its psychological effects, and it can cause people to do some things that are very much against their natural inclinations. For example, as you said earlier, we all have a survival instinct, yet some people will consciously suppress that instinct in order to conform to their religious beliefs. Martyrs of every religion who have marched to horrible executions without any struggle for the sake of their beliefs are an example of the suppression of the survival instinct. Those who "turn the other cheek" to an attacking enemy are another example. And those who sacrifice a daughter to Moloch or a volcano god or whomever -- they are really doing the same sort of thing: suppressing a natural instinct.
Today, there are still those who try to fight against their natural inclinations for the sake of religion. Celibate priests are one example. I don't think abstaining from sex is normal or healthy at all, but some do it because they believe they'll eventually be rewarded.
2005-05-02 07:37 | User Profile
[QUOTE]Walter Yanis Post:
...Get stinking rich and tithe to your church or other institution that believes in the Founders' vision of a white, Christian and English-speaking America... [/QUOTE]Interesting, but here's the vision of Walter's church that your tithe will go to:
[img]http://www.catholicrelief.org/images/includes/mast3.jpg[/img]
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2005-05-04 14:17 | User Profile
Most people have a Creator sense, religion for good or bad uses that. As it was written the law is in your heart. Being no real friend of christianity it is sadly interesting to see how once it was almost Aryan Heathenism with Chivalry a Warrior Christ and paradise in heaven for christian Warriors who fought in his cause. Many images of Christ in Warrior form but that was the Golden Age of Solar christianity. Which was a christian graft on of the Aryan spirit. Islam has a excellent Warrior creed built into it, where christianity does not.