← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · Hilaire Belloc
Thread ID: 17990 | Posts: 9 | Started: 2005-04-27
2005-04-27 18:14 | User Profile
For those interested in a Traditional Catholic view on the topic of immigration, one need not look further than the Catholic Encyclopedia. Here's an excerpt under the topic of Migration, with the sub-title of Legal Control of Migration:
** [url]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10291a.htm[/url]
LEGAL CONTROL OF MIGRATION
The legal control of migration began when it ceased to be collective and began to be individual. Laws have been passed preventing people from leaving their native land, and also, by the country of destination, forbidding or regulating entrance thereto. Extensive regulation has been found necessary applying to transportation companies and their agents, the means of transportation, treatment en route and at terminal points. [u]The justification of public interference is to be found in the right of a nation to control the variations of its own population.[/u] The highest necessity is that arising from war: on this ground nations almost universally regulate very closely the movements of population, forbidding emigration, that they may not lose their soldiers, and guarding immigration as a military precaution. [u]Restrictive measures are also justified on grounds of health and morals, and on the general ground that a national family has a right to say who shall join it.[/u]**
So right here we see the Catholic church defending the right of nations to restrict immigration to its nation, even on the grounds that a nation has a right to decide who shall become a member of its "national family". If you read further, it even states that most "rights" of people to immigrate is a fairly recent notion.
So the common notion that the Catholic church's support for immigration is based on theology is groundless. Even post-Vatican II documents dealing with immigration, while more sympathetic to the "rights" of immigrants, still in the end defend a nation's right to restrict it.
2005-04-27 18:41 | User Profile
So the common notion that the Catholic church's support for immigration is based on theology is groundless. Even post-Vatican II documents dealing with immigration, while more sympathetic to the "rights" of immigrants, still in the end defend a nation's right to restrict it. Agreed. The pro-immigration stance of the Catholic Church and so many other denominations seems to stem much less from any theological considerations than from the influence of secular liberalism.
There's certainly no apparent theological reason why Christian churches couldn't adopt a view that (for example) immigration should be tightly restricted while simultaneously advocating that Christians donate money of their own to charitable causes that help those in other nations who are in dire need. Helping the poor does not necessarily entail inviting them to come into your house to live with you, but that point seems to be lost on the present leadership of many major Christian denominations.
**P.S. -- Post #1000! And I've still not been banned! :thumbsup:
2005-04-27 19:26 | User Profile
Angler,
Congratulations and why would anyone want to ban you?
2005-04-27 21:55 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Sertorius]Angler,
Congratulations... Thanks!
...and why would anyone want to ban you?[/QUOTE]Tex is mad at me for being thoroughly unconvinced about Christianity. I keep saying that I see no reason to believe the Bible was inspired by God and many reasons to believe otherwise; he's called me arrogant and stupid for having that mindset. I can't really blame him, though; as a former Catholic, I know from firsthand experience that religion has a very powerful hold on peoples' minds. Even my Catholic family members (with whom I'm very close) get mad at me when I discuss religion with them, so it's not like I can expect someone on the Internet to be different. Besides, this is Tex's board, so if he doesn't want people to express strong disagreement with him about religion or evolution or whatever, then that's his prerogative. I have no hard feelings. :D
2005-04-28 03:46 | User Profile
Who cares what the "Catholic Encyclopedia" says? All I care about is what the Catholic Church is actually [url=http://www.richmonddiocese.org/ris/]doing[/url].
Nice try, though.
2005-04-28 05:05 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Kurt] [size=3]Who cares what the "Catholic Encyclopedia" says? [/size] [size=3]All I care about is what the Catholic Church is actually [url="http://www.richmonddiocese.org/ris/"]doing[/url].[/size]
[size=3]Nice try, though[/size].[/QUOTE]Good link Kurt. And that is just one of many more just like it in cities all over America!
[center][img]http://www.richmonddiocese.org/ris/images/cdrtype.jpg[/img] [/center] [center][img]http://www.richmonddiocese.org/ris/images/logo.gif[/img][/center]
[center][color=red][size=3]"You shall not oppress an alien; you well know how it feels to be an alien, [/size][/color][/center] [center][color=red][size=3]since you were once aliens yourselves in the land of Egypt."[/size][/color][/center] [center][color=red][/color][/center] [center][color=red]size=3[/size][/color][/center]
[center][url="http://www.richmonddiocese.org/ris/"]http://www.richmonddiocese.org/ris/[/url][/center]
2005-04-28 11:54 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Angler] The pro-immigration stance of the Catholic Church and so many other denominations seems to stem much less from any theological considerations than from the influence of secular liberalism. [/QUOTE]Angler, any idea why "secular liberalism" would not have influenced their positions on contraception and abortion?
2005-04-28 16:23 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Stigmata]Angler, any idea why "secular liberalism" would not have influenced their positions on contraception and abortion?[/QUOTE]Well, there has indeed been strong liberal pressure on the Catholic Church to soften its views on those issues; the Church just hasn't caved in. The Church considers its authority to be infallible on issues of "faith and morals," and for many years (I don't know exactly how long, but that can be researched) it has condemned artificial contraception and abortion in no uncertain terms. I am not sure if formal ex Cathedra pronouncements on these issues have been made, but clearly the Church's position on them is strong nonetheless. Once any theological debate within the Church over an issue such as abortion has ended and a decree has been made -- and particularly after it has become rooted in tradition to at least some degree -- the Church is not going to backtrack. Even if its leaders wanted to cave into secular pressure (and I doubt that's the case here) they couldn't do so without seriously damaging the Church's credibility.
This is one point of view, anyway. Perhaps Walter Yannis will weigh in, as he's a Catholic (and not a lapsed one like me!).
2005-04-29 15:53 | User Profile
Normal people, with a genuine interest in debating the merits and demerits of the church as opposed to feckless trolls, would better serve their arguments by presenting them in posts arranged by topic rather than spawning dozens of spam threads across the forum.
As far as Iââ¬â¢m aware there is no conflict between Holy Mother Churchââ¬â¢s teachings and actions in regards immigration. Catechism considers economic immigration a 'right', concedes nations have a right to restrict immigration, and states that immigrants should play by the cultural norms of their adopted countries.
"[Catechism] 2241 [COLOR=DarkSlateBlue]The more prosperous nations are obliged[/COLOR], to the extent they are able, [COLOR=DarkSlateBlue]to welcome the foreigner in search of[/COLOR] the security and [COLOR=DarkSlateBlue]the means of livelihood which he cannot find in his country of origin[/COLOR]. Public authorities should see to it that the natural right is respected that places a guest under the protection of those who receive him. [COLOR=DarkRed]Political authorities[/COLOR], for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, [COLOR=DarkRed]may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions[/COLOR], especially with regard to the immigrants' duties toward their country of adoption. [COLOR=Green]Immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them[/COLOR], to obey its laws and to assist in carrying civic burdens. [emp. mine]"