← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · Walter Yannis
Thread ID: 17802 | Posts: 25 | Started: 2005-04-16
2005-04-16 13:46 | User Profile
[URL=http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=246]New Book Shows Scary Side of Jung [/URL]
In the past 30 years, a "quiet revolution" has taken place in the Catholic Church as the psychoanalytical teachings of Carl Jung), replaced those of Jesus Christ, St. Paul, St. Augustine, and St. Thomas Aquinas in the "mainstream" of Catholic teaching in Western Europe and the United States-a revolution which most Catholics have not yet noticed.
How odd that the Swiss psychoanalyst, who considered himself the founder of a new religion to replace traditional Christianity, who wrote of his own "deification" as a lion-headed god from an ancient Aryan mystery cult, should achieve such pre-eminent status.
Odder yet, in our post-Holocaust world, that Jung, a virulent anti-Semite whom the British Foreign Office wanted tried at the Nuremberg war crimes trials as a Nazi pseudoscientist, should be embraced as a spiritual guide by millions of Catholics seeking psychological healing.
Even odder is the fact that Jung, an "apostle for adultery," who believed in (and practiced) polygamy, who devoted his life to overthrowing patriarchal society and reviving the ancient pagan gods of the libido, should have his "insights" into masculinity and femininity and sexuality upheld by a woman Dolores Leckey-who has headed the U.S. bishops' Marriage and Family Life Office in their national conference for 20 years!
These bizarre developments in the Catholic Church have not yet had the hearing they deserve, but a new book by Richard Noll., a clinical psychologist and lecturer in the history of science at Harvard University, should generate. some long-overdue discussion.
Two years after publishing The Jung Cult (Princeton University Press), which demonstrated that Jung deliberately founded a new religious movement, Noll is back with The Aryan Christ: The Secret Life of C. G. Jung (Random House), which presents even more explosive revelations detailing Jung's obsession with overthrowing orthodox Christianity.
Noll shows how Jung was, in many ways, the product of his environment. He was the grandson of an apostate Catholic and physician, Karl Gustav Jung, who rose high in Masonic and Illuminati circles. The elder Karl might have been-Carl Jung believed he was-the result of an adulterous affair between K. G.'s mother and Goethe; at any rate, adultery and Masonic mysticism and occultism would continue racing through the Jung genes.
Noll introduces the reader to Carl Jung in 1895, when the 20-year-old medical student is among a circle of his female kin engaged in a seance, contacting the spirits of their dead relatives. These seances, described by Jung himself and narrated by Noll in spine-chilling detail, "marked the opening of a door that never completely closed, an invitation to countless discarnate voices and prescient entities that Jung would consult-and teach others to consult-for the rest of his life. Spiritualists techniques of visionary-trance induction not only introduced Jung to his deceased ancestors but also the spirits and gods of the Land of the Dead, who, under various pseudonyms of psychological jargon remained his traveling companions along the trails of life."
From the years 1900 to 1909, Jung was engaged in clinical research at the renowned Burgholzli, where he specialized in dementia praecox (schizophrenia). By the time he left, he had made his reputation as a leading psychologist in Europe, and had pioneered many of the treatments and coined many of the phrases which are now standard tools of the trade.
During his time at the Burgholzli, Jung wrote a letter to the father of psychoanalysis, Sigmund Freud, concerning a patient, Sabina Spielrein (with whom Jung later had an adulterous affair-one of many), thus beginning a short-lived but affectionate relationship during which Freud anointed the younger Jung his heir apparent-a device which he hoped would liberate psychoanalysis from the charge that it was a "Jewish affair."
By 1910, Jung had come to see in psychoanalysis a replacement for traditional Christianity, which he made clear in a Feb. 10th, 1910 letter, replying to Freud's query on whether it would be wise to join the International Order for Ethics and Culture:
I imagine a far finer and more comprehensive task for [psychoanalysis] than alliance with an ethical fraternity. I think we must give it time to infiltrate into people from many centers, to revivify among intellectuals a feeling for symbol and myth, ever so gently to transform Christ back into a soothsaying god of the vine, which he was, and in this way absorb those ecstatic instinctual forces of Christianity for the one purpose of making the cult and the sacred myth what they once were a drunken feast of joy where man regained the ethos and holiness of an animal. That was the beauty and purpose of classical religion.
Noll comments:
This explosive effusion of Christian and Dionysian imagery and visions of psychoanalysis as an "irresistible mass movement" and as a living replacement for orthodox Christianity could only have reminded Freud of certain Nietzschean, Wagnerian, Volkish neopagan cultural themes that would appeal primarily to Germanic Christians-Aryans.
Freud's response was a reprimand. Jung's zealotry was clearly off-putting. "But you mustn't regard me as the founder of a religion," Freud said. "My intentions are not so far-reaching. . . . I am not thinking of a substitute for religion. This need must be sublimated".
Noll, however, does not mention that when Jung penned that letter in 1910, Freud had reason to worry: Anti-Semitism was rife in Central Europe. Government sanctioned, underwritten by wealthy industrialists, nurtured in the universities, public schools, and cafes, anti-Semitism was the key ingredient in the rising wave of Volkish and neopagan ideologies extraordinarily popular in Germany.
The Case Of Otto Gross
Before their eventual split, however, Freud passed on to Jung for treatment at the Burgholzli a client, one Otto Gross, described by Noll as "one of the most dangerous men of his generation a threat to the bourgeois-Christian universe of German Europe. . . .
"Gross was the great breaker of bonds, the loosener, the beloved of an army of women he had driven mad.... He coaxed one lover/patient to suicide, and then another patient died under similar circumstances. . . .
"He was a Nietzschean physician, a Freudian psychoanalyst, an anarchist, the high priest of sexual liberation, a master of orgies, the enemy of patriarchy, and a dissolute cocaine and morphine addict. He was loved and hated with equal passion, an infectious agent to some, a healing touch to others. He was a strawberry-blond Dionysus.
Gross, the son of the founder of modern scientific criminology, would become-Freud not excepted-the greatest single influence on Jung, the man who persuaded him of the therapeutic value of adultery as a cure for every kind of neurosis.
Of the many fascinating characters Noll describes entering and exiting Jung's world, Gross is by far the most intriguing and one of the most important: "Through Otto Gross, psychoanalysis first leapt from the bourgeoisie to the bohemian counterculture, beginning a literary and artistic fascination with Freudian theory that continues to this day," observes Noll.
Gross was the prophet of a "sexual communism," and among those he inspired were D. H. Lawrence, Franz Kafka, and a host of other writers and artists. During Jung's and Gross' long periods of psychoanalysis, Gross "captivated Jung with his theories of sexual liberation, his Nietzscheanism, and his utopian dreams of transforming the world through psychoanalysis."
The analysand became the teacher. Writes Noll:
During the course of their time together, Gross offered Jung forbidden fruit. After a period of tormented consideration, Jung finally bit. Jung's conception of what constituted a 'sin' changed: 'Doing evil' could have a beneficial effect on the personality by freeing one from 'one-sidedness' and putting one back in touch with an Edenic instinctual being. Jung came to believe that not giving in to a strong sexual impulse could result in illness or even death. These are all ideas that everyone who knew Jung for any length of time would hear him urge on others.
Once Jung submitted to the temptations Gross offered, profound alterations in his concepts on the place of sexuality and religion in life took place. Because they denigrated the body and sexual activity-especially outside of holy matrimony-the repressive orthodoxies of Christianity now seemed to him to be the true enemies of life. Sexuality had to be brought back into spirituality.
By 1912, Jung found another model-the spirituality of pagan antiquity-that he held sacred. Although Gross die not share Jung's fascination with spiritualism or the occult, his "religion" was finding ways to rejuvenate and indeed redeem humankind through the sacrament of uninhibited sex. Jung soon learned of the spiritual sacredness of sex through personal experience and implored others to consider the call of the flesh.
Jung is also indebted to Otto Gross for the concepts of extraversion and introversion . . . the fundamental ideas of Jung's theory of "psychological types".
Gross died in a sanitorium in 1920.
The Religion Of Sex
Many of Jung's patients became his devoted "apostles." Noll brilliantly introduces us to them, and we watch as they physically and mentally (to say nothing of spiritually) deteriorate.
There is Medill McCormick, part-owner of The Chicago Tribune, who suffered from both alcoholism and depression. In a 1909 letter to his wife, Ruth Hanna McCormick, he disclosed that Jung had prescribed mistresses as a cure for his ills.
He rather recommended a little flirting, and told me to bear in mind that it might be advisable for me to have mistresses-that I was a very dangerous and savage man, that I must not forget my heredity and infantile influences and lose my soul-if women would save it.
Jung similarly recommended adultery to Henry A. Murray, the psychologist and personality theorist at Harvard University, when Murray was contemplating divorcing his wife-and, of course, Jung was taking his own advice. While his wife was bearing children, Jung brought his mistress, Toni Wolff, to live with him.
By the time Murray met [Jung and Wolff] in 1925, [they] had been lovers for more than a decade. And they, too, were convinced that they had founded a new religion. They believed in a new faith in which former sins and evils became necessary for spiritual rebirth. God-no longer One would emerge from individual visionary experiences and automatic writing as a multitude of natural forces or entities that were both good and evil, writes Noll.
It was a religion conceived through polygamy.
Then there are Harold McCormick (cousin of Medill), heir of International Harvester, and his wife, Edith Rockefeller, daughter of John D. Without Edith, Noll speculates, Jung might never have succeeded-for she poured her family's fortune into publicizing him on this side of the Atlantic, even while her own life deteriorated via the standard course: psychoanalysis, adultery, divorce, alienation from her larger family, and, eventually, a lonely death in the Drake Hotel in Chicago.
It makes painful reading.
Then there is the case of Constance Long, a British physician who never married. After her professional experiences during World War I and her contact with Jung, Long began to develop her theories on bisexuality and hermaphroditism. Her theories posited that there are no exclusively masculine or feminine genders, but each person is a blend of both.
These notions, daring for the time, have now become part of the contemporary vocabulary through such authors as the U.S. bishops' longtime marriage and family life director Dolores Leckey.
No one should be surprised that Noll's book reads like a walk through a mental hospital: it is. It is full of sick people, generally the idle rich searching for a cure for their profound angst; or, in the case of Constance Long, someone seeking a spiritual support for her lesbianism.
In the chapter on "The Passion of Constance Long," Noll discloses-for the first time, based on Long's diary Jung's view of himself as a "heresiarch of the first order. "
In this letter of January, 1920, filled with spiritualized eroticism and more than just a touch of Gnostic philosophy, Jung told Long how to discover the little child, the god living within her:
This child in its infinite smallness is your individuality, wrote Jung, and with practice, it is a god-smaller than small yet greater than great. The primordial creator of the world, the blind creative libido, becomes transformed in man through individuation [i.e., doing whatever you want], and out of this process which is like pregnancy, arises the divine child, a reborn god. . . .
Please do not speak of these things to other people. It could do harm to the child. . .
Noll explains: If there was ever any doubt that Jung was quite self-consciously the charismatic leader of his own mystery cult, this private letter to his disciple should dispel it. Jung considered himself a heresiarch of the first order, a redeemer who offered redemption to others so that they, too, could be involved in the grand work of bringing to life the new god that was trapped within everyone, waiting to be released.
Fitting In
Many Catholic readers of Aryan Christ will find especially valuable Noll's final chapter, "From Volkish Prophet to Wise Old Man." This chapter situates Jung in his era, a time when Volkish ideologies of racism and anti-Semitism, occult spirituality, sun worship, neopaganism, and a farrago of pseudoscientific philosophies prevailed.
At the heart of these potent ideologies that prepared the Germans for the Third Reich was a bitter anti-Catholicism nurtured for over a century in the state schools, the universities, and popular literature.
Noll shows, via a letter Jung wrote to Oskar Schmitz in 1923, that Jung considered Christianity a foreign growth on Germany. Like Wotan's oaks, Jung lamented, the gods were felled and a wholly incongruous Christianity, born of monotheism on a much higher cultural level, was grafted onto the stumps. The Germanic man is still suffering from this mutilation. . . . We must dig down to the primitive in us, for only out of the conflict between civilized man and the Germanic barbarian will there come what we need: a new experience of God.
Not surprisingly, as Richard Wolin wrote in his review of Noll's book, published in the Oct. 27th issue of the New Republic, Jung adored Hitler.
In a January, 1939 interview with Hearst's International Cosmopolitan, Jung described Hitler in glowing terms: There is no question but that Hitler belongs in the category of the truly mystic medicine man. As somebody commented about him at the last Nuremberg party congress, since the time of Mohammed nothing like it has been seen in this world. This markedly mystic characteristic of Hitler's is what makes him do things which seem to us illogical, inexplicable, curious, and unreasonable. . . . So you see, Hitler is a medicine man, a form of spiritual vessel, a demi-deity, or, even better, a myth.
Richard Noll's Aryan Christ: The Secret Life of Carl Jung powerfully documents Jung's life's mission to subvert and overthrow the Catholic Church and traditional Christianity, the human wreckage he left in the wake of carrying out his goal, and his unsavory associations, including individuals involved in supporting Hitler on his rise to power. Some of the more minute details will be surprising such as Noll's revelation that an official with the International Harvester Company helped Hitler design his Nazi flag.
How odd, then, that Jungian spirituality is a staple in Catholic education, Catholic spirituality, and Catholic retreat centers across America. How could it happen? Those who read Noll's book might not find the answer to that question, but they will find themselves reflecting time and time again on Pope Paul VI's lament: The smoke of Satan has entered the Catholic Church.
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2005-04-16 15:44 | User Profile
How odd, then, that Jungian spirituality is a staple in Catholic education, Catholic spirituality, and Catholic retreat centers across America. How could it happen?
Admittedly nobody ought to take my comments on this topic without a large grain of salt, but from a strictly religous standpoint, the Catholic Church has been asking for this from the beginning. I remember once having a conversation w/ Walter during which he mentioned that Catholicism does not impart be-all/end-all importance to the Bible but instead views it as an important guide.... but no more important than, and often secondary to, selected works of men: encyclicals, canons, decrees, delarations, etc, etc, etc.
I don't knock or defend, but merely note that - as the worldliest of all Christian religions - Catholicism has traditionally left itself wide open for this type of subversive infiltration. And as the article above points out, nothing is less eternal and absolute, or more indicative of human fallibility, than 20/20 hindsight and buyer's remorse.
2005-04-16 15:56 | User Profile
[QUOTE]Noll shows, via a letter Jung wrote to Oskar Schmitz in 1923, that Jung considered Christianity a foreign growth on Germany. Like Wotan's oaks, Jung lamented, the gods were felled and a wholly incongruous Christianity, born of monotheism on a much higher cultural level, was grafted onto the stumps. The Germanic man is still suffering from this mutilation. . . . We must dig down to the primitive in us, for only out of the conflict between civilized man and the Germanic barbarian will there come what we need: a new experience of God. [/QUOTE]
On that, at least, he spoke the truth.
2005-04-16 16:06 | User Profile
Freud & Jung seem to be the same kind of jolly subversive Jew-and-Gentile couple as Marx & Engels...
Believe it or not, but there's a relatively big country band in Finland named as "[B]Freud, Marx, Engels & Jung[/B]":
[url]http://www.daltones.fi/bandit/freud.htm[/url]
:blink:
Petr
2005-04-16 16:07 | User Profile
[B][I] - "On that, at least, he spoke the truth."[/I][/B]
Shut up, you stinking agent provocateur.
Petr
2005-04-16 16:45 | User Profile
Jung believed in [url="file:///C:/WINDOWS/Desktop/AAA/Blogger/astrolgy.html"][color=black]astrology[/color][/url][color=black], [/color][url="file:///C:/WINDOWS/Desktop/AAA/Blogger/spiritul.html"][color=black]spiritualism[/color][/url][color=black], [/color][url="file:///C:/WINDOWS/Desktop/AAA/Blogger/telepath.html"][color=black]telepathy[/color][/url][color=black], [/color][url="file:///C:/WINDOWS/Desktop/AAA/Blogger/kinesis.html"][color=black]telekinesis[/color][/url][color=black], [/color][url="file:///C:/WINDOWS/Desktop/AAA/Blogger/clairvoy.html"][color=black]clairvoyance[/color][/url][color=black] and [/color][url="file:///C:/WINDOWS/Desktop/AAA/Blogger/esp.html"][color=black]ESP.[/color][/url] In addition to believing in a number of occult and paranormal notions, Jung contributed two new ones in his attempt to establish a psychology rooted in occult and pseudoscientific beliefs: synchronicity and the collective unconscious.
[url="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=1573920215/roberttoddcarrolA/"][color=#0000ff]Gallo, Ernest. "Jung and the Paranormal," The Encyclopedia of the Paranormal edited by Gordon Stein (Buffalo, N.Y.: Prometheus Books, 1996).[/color][/url]
[url="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0879758597/roberttoddcarrolA/"][color=#0000ff]McGowan, Don. What is Wrong with Jung (Amherst, N.Y.: Prometheus Books, 1994).[/color][/url]
[url="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0679449450/roberttoddcarrolA/"][color=#0000ff]Noll, Richard. The Aryan Christ : The Secret Life of Carl Jung (Random House, 1997).[/color][/url]
[url="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0684834235/roberttoddcarrolA/"][color=#0000ff]Noll, Richard. The Jung Cult : Origins of a Charismatic Movement (Free Press, 1997).[/color][/url]
[url="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0684834952/roberttoddcarrolA/"][color=#0000ff]Storr, Anthony. Feet of Clay - saints, sinners, and madmen: a study of gurus (New York: The Free Press, 1996).[/color][/url]
2005-04-16 17:04 | User Profile
[QUOTE=il ragno][I remember once having a conversation w/ Walter during which he mentioned that Catholicism does not impart be-all/end-all importance to the Bible but instead views it as an important guide.... but no more important than, and often secondary to, selected works of men: encyclicals, canons, decrees, delarations, etc, etc, etc. [/QUOTE] Either you're misremebering that or I was high when I wrote it.
As Cardinal Ratzinger put it, doctrine is scriptural interpretation. The question is who has the authority to interpret scripture. Catholics and Orthodox say that the Scriptures must be read together with the Tradition, Catholics add also the Magisterium or the Church's teaching charism.
2005-04-16 17:11 | User Profile
[QUOTE=albion]Jung believed in [url="file:///C:/WINDOWS/Desktop/AAA/Blogger/astrolgy.html"][color=black]astrology[/color][/url][color=black], [/color][url="file:///C:/WINDOWS/Desktop/AAA/Blogger/spiritul.html"][color=black]spiritualism[/color][/url][color=black], [/color[/url][/QUOTE]
Thanks for that.
Jung certainly received a sympathetic hearing from both Catholic and Lutheran pastors in Wisconsin. There were Myers Briggs seminars, for example. I was on a Jung kick for a while as a kid. It just all sounds so nice. The god within, all we need do is release him. Don't worry so much about sexual adventures, they're all part of self-discovery. Taking acid may be a shortcut to the unconscioius. Carlos Castaneda's books have much to teach us.
Seriously. It's hard to imagine, but that's the sort of crap making the rounds in Catholic and mainstream Protestant circles in the 1970s.
This is an opportunity to plug one of my favorite films about the Culture of Critique's resounding victory in the early 70s, Ang Lee's [URL=http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000056BSG/qid=1113671409/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-5043471-1687244?v=glance&s=dvd]The Ice Storm[/URL]. Check it out. It's a very underrated film, IMHO.
Anyway, there's really no doubt that Jung was into the occult and ultimately wound up worshipping the dark side. It's truly astonishing that these neo-gnostics infiltrated the Church and started preaching crypto-satanism and basically nobody said "boo."
2005-04-16 18:32 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Walter Yannis] This is an opportunity to plug one of my favorite films about the Culture of Critique's resounding victory in the early 70s, Ang Lee's [URL=http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000056BSG/qid=1113671409/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-5043471-1687244?v=glance&s=dvd]The Ice Storm[/URL]. Check it out. It's a very underrated film, IMHO. [/QUOTE]A good movie. Features a very young, pre-LOTR Elijah Wood.
I think you're confusing cause and effect, though. The people in that movie, and the other people of that era, weren't the way they were because of Jung or "neo-gnostics"; they were trying out anything and everything - Jung included - because they had lost faith in everything and were willing to try anything.
It's cultural malaise, not a gnostic conspiracy. Gnostic is a very abused term anyway; neither Jung nor most of the New Ager types qualify as gnostics.
2005-04-16 18:38 | User Profile
Hey Walter, would you like to offer us your review of "Ice Storm" - the same kind of one that you did on "Cabaret"?
Petr
2005-04-16 18:43 | User Profile
Here's a little Gnostic ditty for you: [COLOR=Sienna] [SIZE=5] Strawberry Fields Forever [/SIZE] Lennon/McCartney
Let me take you down, 'cause I'm going to Strawberry Fields. [B]Nothing is real and nothing to get hungabout[/B]. Strawberry Fields forever.
[B]Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see[/B]. It's getting hard to be someone but it all works out, it doesn't matter much to me. Let me take you down, 'cause I'm going to Strawberry Fields. [B]Nothing is real and nothing to get hungabout[/B]. Strawberry Fields forever.
No one I think is in my tree, I mean it must be high or low. That is you can't you know tune in but it's all right, that is I think it's not too bad. Let me take you down, 'cause I'm going to Strawberry Fields. [B]Nothing is real and nothing to get hungabout[/B]. Strawberry Fields forever.
[B]Always, no sometimes, think it's me, but you know I know when it's a dream[/B]. I think I know I mean a 'Yes' but it's all wrong, that is I think I disagree. Let me take you down, 'cause I'm going to Strawberry Fields. [B]Nothing is real and nothing to get hungabout[/B]. Strawberry Fields forever. Strawberry Fields forever.[/COLOR]
And here's another: :)
[COLOR=Blue]Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream. Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, [B]Life is but a dream[/B][/COLOR].
Petr
2005-04-16 19:05 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Petr]Hey Walter, would you like to offer us your review of "Ice Storm" - the same kind of one that you did on "Cabaret"? Petr[/QUOTE] I'm deeply flattered that you would ask.
I got interested in this film when I heard a NPR interview with director Ang Lee about it when it first came out. Lee is Asian, but he expressed in this interview a genuine love and admiration for the American nation. It's been so many years I don't remember exactly what he said, but it was clear that he was trying to warn us white Americans of what he saw as our insane rush to throw ourselves over the moral cliff. I took him at the time to mean that the world needs America and that a great force for good in the world will be lost if we lose all sense of ourselves. And indeed I think that Lee is really rubbing our noses in our loss of faith.
The film takes place in a New England town in 1973. The resignation of Richard Nixon forms the larger social context. The children are essentially abandoned as the parents flail about for some sort of meaning in their lives. They try everything, including wife swapping - swinging. That is a reference to the film's title, which is taken from Robert Frost's poem "Birches" - "but swinging doesn't bend them down to stay/ice storms do that." In the end a sleet storm (the ice storm) descends upon the town, and the young man is lost in it.
I think that Lee is saying that even rampant sexual immorality won't destroy you, but a total loss of your sense of self will.
A deep sense of loss for a heritage thoughtlessly discarded permeates the film. The message is in the details. The local mainstream Protestant church is run by a New Age guy who replaced the worship of God for self help group therapy. The little girl is acting out sexually at a really young age and her mother (Sigourney Weaver) can only babble something about Margaret Mead. One of the neighbors is a brilliant engineer who, when asked why he agreed to engage in wife swapping, replied "I guess I never really thought about it." During Thanksgiving dinner the little girl leads the family in prayer, asking God to forgive them for killing the Indians and taking their tribal lands.
I think that Lee was saying that for some reason right at the moment that we were at the top of the world we lost all confidence in ourselves, and even of our right to exist, and we just threw it all away.
I should watch the film again, I bought a copy.
Ang Lee also directed Ride With The Devil, which I thought was of a piece with Ice Storm. He seems terribly interested in holding up a mirror to Americans in the hopes that they'll recognize who they are.
2005-04-16 19:11 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Petr] [COLOR=Blue]Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream. Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, [B]Life is but a dream[/B][/COLOR]. [/QUOTE]You've convinced me! Anything that is not hard-line materialism must go! Including Christian Platonism! :D
Shakespeare's gotta go, too! Willy was nothing more than another one of those sneaky neo-gnostics:
We are such stuff As dreams are made on, and our little life Is rounded with a sleep.
2005-04-16 19:32 | User Profile
[I][B] - "You've convinced me! Anything that is not hard-line materialism must go! Including Christian Platonism!"[/B] [/I]
Actually I consider the infection of neo-Platonism on the early Christian church to be an unfortunate event - a very great part of all that "alienation from reality" and "escapism from this cruel world" that Nietzschian will-to-power pagans like to accuse Christianity for is actually due to this.
Please read this recent thread of mine - a Reformed scholar Rousas J. Rushdoony declared war on "Christian Platonism": [COLOR=Purple] "[B]A radical deformation of the gospel and of the redeemed man's calling crept into the church as a result of neoplatonism[/B]. Dominion was renounced, the earth regarded as the devil's realm, the body despised, and a false humility and meekness cultivated. Dominion was regarded as a burden of the flesh rather than a godly responsibility."[/COLOR]
[url]http://www.originaldissent.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17759&highlight=rushdoony[/url]
And by all means, read also these articles if this subject interests you: [COLOR=Blue][I][SIZE=3][B] "Rushdoony, Neoplatonism, and a Biblical View of Sex"[/B][/SIZE]
"The result of all this was that by mixing the Bible with ancient Greek philosophy, Christians began to see a dichotomy, a dialectical struggle within man, between body and soul, between emotion and reason. [B]In reality, such a view of life was merely neoplatonism in Christian garb. [/B]Unfortunately, it has plagued Christiansââ¬âas well as all of western civilizationââ¬âfor nearly twenty centuries."[/I][/COLOR]
[url]http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=1373[/url] [COLOR=Navy][I][SIZE=3] [B]"Foreword to "Death of the Church Victorious""[/B][/SIZE]
"For centuries, however, neoplatonic spirituality has undermined Christianity. [B]The remarkable vigor of English Puritanism, for example, was undermined by the Cambridge Platonism. [/B]What appeared as a "spiritual" advance was in fact a radical retreat from victory."[/I][/COLOR]
[url]http://www.biblicalexaminer.org/DOTVForewords.html[/url]
Actually Gnosticism is like a Western version of Buddhism - the whole universe is considered to be just an meaningless, evil illusion of senses, or [I]maya[/I] in Sanskrit.
It is indeed quite possible that Shakespeare was influenced by Gnostic ideas - the whole atmosphere and background of "The Tempest" is occultic.
Petr
2005-04-16 19:58 | User Profile
Poor Petr.
No sense of humor, at all. Just a dry, soul-killing earnestness.
I'll keep myself amongst the ranks of the happy Pagans, Gnostics, Buddhists, and those Christians who understand that Christianity was not in its origins a Jewish sect of strict, Wahaabist Puritanical joylessness, but rather something else entirely.
Heck, even C.S. Lewis understood the importance of Platonism to Christianity. Without Platonism and other Hellenic influences, you don't have historical Christianity at all, you have a marginally Christianized form of Noahidism, Judeo-Christianity if you will: which in fact does, sadly, describe the bulk of modern Protestantism and post-Vatican II Catholicism.
I don't find people like Rushdoony at all interesting or informative. I spent my early life getting indoctrinated with that stuff; you aren't telling me anything I haven't heard before.
2005-04-16 20:03 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Petr]Actually Gnosticism is like a Western version of Buddhism - the whole universe is considered to be just an meaningless, evil illusion of senses, or [I]maya[/I] in Sanskrit.[/QUOTE]
That's a big reason why I enjoy reading Luther and how he reasserted the doctrines and theology of the early church fathers like Augustine. It's a down to earth, flesh and blood, common man's meat and potatoes theology. So much of the Baptist religion I grew up in is symbolic and spiritualized away i.e. the Lord's supper and baptism. Because of that they really miss out on the joy, comfort and true spiritual nourishment of the divine sacraments, in my opinion.
2005-04-16 20:09 | User Profile
[B][I] - "No sense of humor, at all. Just a dry, soul-killing earnestness."[/I][/B]
It's in my genes - we Finns are proud to be the most serious, humorless nation on earth. Germans are exuberant eccentrics compared to us.
:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:
[B][I] - "Without Platonism and other Hellenic influences, you don't have historical Christianity at all, you have a marginally Christianized form of Noahidism, Judeo-Christianity if you will: which in fact does, sadly, describe the bulk of modern Protestantism and post-Vatican II Catholicism."[/I][/B]
I disagree. "Noahidism" and "Judeo-Christianity" are completely modern aberrations - even the most pro-Jewish 17th century Puritans were quite different from them.
And this just shows how you simply cannot please anti-Christians: if you follow the Biblical paradigm, and consider this world to be very real and your mission there to be very concrete, you are accused of "Jewish materialism" and crassness, like Buddhism-loving "philosophers" like hugely over-rated Arthur Schopenhauer did, AND if you take the Platonic approach, you are soon accused of escapist cowardice and decadence by the guys like Nietzsche...
Still, all sincere "Christian Platonists" are still my brothers and sisters in Christ - this is essentially a "family argument".
Petr
2005-04-16 20:25 | User Profile
Actually, though I don't reflexively scowl at Petr like I used to, Grep's post is as eloquent a blow for Our Side as I could have hoped for. Well done! Life lived as a qualifying heat for Heaven is not for me, though the rest of you so disposed can knock yourselves out....
2005-04-16 20:28 | User Profile
I disagree. "Noahidism" and "Judeo-Christianity" are completely modern aberrations - even the most pro-Jewish 17th century Puritans were quite different from them. Not really. Noahidism is certainly a recent abberration, but although the term Judeo-Christian is new, the Judaizing tendency in certain Protestant sects is certainly not new. The biggest mistake Protestants made was in trying to "recreate" an ancient original "early Christianity" which they imagined must be a Jewish-Christianity. This was an inevitable first step towards a lot of other problems. This lead to such things, for instance, as an elevation of the Hebrew, Masoretic text, over and above the Greek Septaugint text, on the mistaken assumption that it was more authentic, that is, original, than the Greek text - a very dangerous and dubious assumption. Many problems resulted from similar such assumptions about Jews and Hebrew.
And this just shows how you simply cannot please anti-Christians: if you follow the Biblical paradigm, and consider this world to be very real and your mission there to be very concrete, you are accused of "Jewish materialism" and crassness, like Buddhism-loving "philosophers" like hugely over-rated Arthur Schopenhauer did, AND if you take the Platonic approach, you are soon accused of escapist cowardice and decadence by the guys like Nietzsche... You could say the same thing in reverse: you cannot please Christians, who either accuse us "anti-Christians" of either being crass materialists or world-escaping New Age dingbats.
I'm neither, thank you very much. But although I don't consider myself a Christian anymore, I do recognize where the Judaizing tendencies of Christianity lead, and I do recognize which varieties of Christianity are healthier in avoiding this, and which less healthy.
Both Christians and non-Christians can be "of two minds" about spiritualism and materialism, faith and science, and not have to put themselves in one camp always at war with the other. The two are simply different ways of looking at different things. When misapplied, errors result. Christians aren't any more free from these errors than anyone else.
2005-04-16 20:29 | User Profile
[B][I] - "Actually, though I don't reflexively scowl at Petr like I used to, Grep's post is as eloquent a blow for Our Side as I could have hoped for. Well done!"[/I][/B]
You are most easily impressed - you could hear the same song-and-dance from any average ex-believer who nervously tries to justify his decision to himself (and any amateur apologist like me has heard it a hundred times already).
Petr
2005-04-16 21:11 | User Profile
Like you said, you're a Finn. So it's either God or the vodka bottle for you guys, in either case under cold gray skies. I'm going to assume you're not a Kingston Wall or Five Fifteen fan......
2005-04-16 21:40 | User Profile
Some Finns do open source stuff (Linus is an ethnic Swede though), or play in metal bands. Or cross the gulf to get cheap booze in St. Petersburg.
2005-04-16 22:17 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Petr] - "No sense of humor, at all. Just a dry, soul-killing earnestness." It's in my genes - we Finns are proud to be the most serious, humorless nation on earth. [/QUOTE] [font=Arial][img]http://www.john-lennon.net/lennonliberty.gif[/img][/font] [font=Arial]Imagine there's no countries, It isnt hard to do, [size=4]Nothing to kill or die for, No religion too, [/size]Imagine all the people living life in peace...[/font] :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:
2005-04-16 22:37 | User Profile
[QUOTE=madrussian]Some Finns do open source stuff (Linus is an ethnic Swede though)...[/QUOTE]All the smart ones moved to Oregon: [url="http://www.linuxworld.com/story/45233.htm"]http://www.linuxworld.com/story/45233.htm[/url]
2005-04-17 01:04 | User Profile
He did a several-year stint at Transmeta. But things didn't work out very well for that startup: by the time they had a product, Intel caught up in the low-power area, and if they still had any edge it was too small to win the market from Intel.