← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · Bardamu
Thread ID: 17215 | Posts: 18 | Started: 2005-03-10
2005-03-10 03:23 | User Profile
[url]http://www.cnsnews.com//ViewNation.asp?Page=\Nation\archive\200503\NAT20050304a.html[/url]
Democrats Want to Ban 'Cop-Killer' Gun By Susan Jones CNSNews.com Morning Editor March 04, 2005
(CNSNews.com) - Democrats in Congress have introduced a bill to outlaw a specific gun, which a leading gun control group describes as "a clear and present threat to police officers" and "a tragedy waiting to happen."
The bills introduced in the House and Senate on Thursday (H.R. 800/S. 397) would make it illegal for anyone except a police officer or military official to possess a Fabrique Nationale (FN) Five-seveN pistol, which can shoot armor-piercing bullets.
Gun control activists call the Five-seveN a "cop-killing gun," and they have enlisted the support of several law enforcement organizations in their effort to outlaw it. Steve Lenkart, the legislative director of the International Brotherhood of Police Officers, a labor union, has called the handgun "an assault weapon that fits in your pocket."
"We are very grateful to Senators [Frank] Lautenberg (D-N.J.), [Jon] Corzine (D-N.J.) and [Chuck] Schumer (D-N.Y.) and Congressman Eliot Engel (D-N.Y.) for introducing legislation in the Senate and the House of Representatives to outlaw this weapon," said Michael Barnes, president of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence united with the Million Mom March.
According to a Brady Campaign press release, the "easily concealable, lightweight handgun" retails for about $1,000.
The Brady Campaign says it bought a Five-seveN from a Virginia gun dealer in January, and it says ammunition purchased with the gun was able to penetrate a protective vest. (Virtually all rifle ammunition will penetrate the most common types of body armor worn by police.)
Shoot Wayne LaPierre?
According to the Brady Campaign, the National Rifle Association has defended the weapon and questioned the Brady Campaign's testing of the Five-seveN.
Michael Barnes suggested that NRA President Wayne LaPierre "put on a bullet proof vest, and we'll fire the weapon at him, and see what happens.
"He should put his body where his mouth is," Barnes said.
The NRA responded, calling it "pathetic to see the gun control lobby make hysterical statements to resurrect their failed political agenda."
The NRA noted that according to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, the armor-piercing ammunition is only available to the military and police.
"The Brady Campaign continues to deceive the American people in their effort to ban firearm ownership by all law-abiding Americans," the statement said.
Just another pistol
There is nothing special about the "Five seven," the NRA says on its website.
"It is a semi-automatic pistol, just like millions of other semi-automatic pistols. BATFE has determined that it is 'particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes,' and has approved its importation.
"There is also nothing special about the 5.7mm ammunition being sold to the public," the NRA said, since under federal law, only non-armor-penetrating types of 5.7mm ammunition may be sold.
Company responds
In a recent response to "misinformation" about its Five-seveN pistol, FN Herstal USA made the following points:
-- The Five-seveN handgun is a full-size pistol and is not easily concealable. In fact, it is larger than most current-issue sidearms carried by law enforcement agencies throughout the U.S.
-- The maximum effective range of the Five-seveN handgun is 35 to 50 meters, which is comparable to other commercially available sporting pistols in its range and effectiveness.
-- The only ammunition available to the public are the cartridges defined by Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms & Explosives (BATFE) as suitable for sporting use.
-- All 5.7 x 28 restricted ammunition (armor piercing) is sold only to law enforcement and military agencies. This ammunition is released and shipped from a U.S. Customs controlled custom bonded warehouse, only with approval from the BATFE and U.S. Customs.
Legislation introduced two weeks ago in Congress would shield gun manufacturers, distributors, dealers, or importers from civil lawsuits stemming from the misuse of their products by others.
Supporters of the legislation, including the National Rifle Association, call it a "reckless lawsuit preemption bill." It's intended to prevent anti-gun groups from accomplishing their apparent goal of suing the gun industry into bankruptcy.
But gun control activists such as the Brady Campaign call it an "immunity" bill and say it would "take away the legal rights of gun violence victims."
In a press release issued Thursday, the Brady Campaign warned the legislation "would shield FN Herstal, a Belgian company, from potential lawsuits based on the sale of its cop killer gun."
In fact, the bill would shield all law-abiding firearms manufacturers from politically motivated litigation.
2005-03-10 09:59 | User Profile
This is more crying from the self-worshipping pig brotherhood and their political whores. I'm sick of these self-righteous bastard thugs signing up to be cops, then moaning about how their jobs are sooo dangerous that citizens' rights need to be restricted to make police safer. It seems like that's the only reason for police to exist nowadays -- to ensure "officer safety." Those swine can go f___ themselves. [rant off]
I was thinking about getting a Five Seven a while back because I knew this sort of hysteria would arise. I do like the idea of armor-busting handgun bullets, and the 5.7 mm will likely do well as an armor penetrator even in its "sporting" (God, I hate that word) variety. That small diameter and high speed should be tough to stop with Kevlar. On the other hand, a small-diameter bullet like the 5.7 mm probably doesn't have much stopping power coming from a handgun. Also, the Five Seven is a bit on the expensive side, and there isn't much word out there about durability, reliability, or accuracy (though all three are probably good). All in all, I decided that I'd rather spend my money on something like another rifle.
2005-03-10 12:33 | User Profile
Angler,
Quote: Pig brotherhood, political whores, swine, self-righteous bastard thugs!
Sir I have very close family that are police officers. In spite of what people like you think, they are fine honorable dedicated young men, who care about the people they serve and protect...As are most police officers.
I suggest you visit the National Police Officers Memorial in Washington DC that honors the men and women who gave their lives in this honorable profession. :furious:
2005-03-10 16:41 | User Profile
vytis,
While I see Angler's point, I also see yours. Cops and Whites should be natural allies, but there's a profound disconnect and divide between the citizenry & police (I hate the term "law enforcement") these past few decades that I'm sure isn't unintentional in the least, what with ADL-sponsored trips for local cops to tour Holocaust/tolerance museums and all.
I'd like your perspective, having close relatives in the profession, on what you think the mindset among the rank-and-file is. Do they know the score in the way you do and are simply hamstrung by fear of PC and losing their jobs from saying so or are there a lot of them who actually believe this multi-cultural BS? I know that your average police chief is gonna be a whole lot more of a suckup than the street cop, due to being a political creature, but how does that attitude "trickle down" through the ranks?
I understand how people can see cops as mere enforcers for a corrupt system, given the laws they're charged with enforcing, but I can also see how cops take a dim view of "civilians" (another term I hate. If you're not in the military, police, too, are "civilians") given that they have to deal, day in and day out, with the worst society has to offer in terms of human trash, and there's a lot of it floating about.
My experience has been the smaller the town, the more decent the cop and more closely connected to the community he is, while the bigger the city, the more likely you are to run into the "bully with a badge" syndrome, where everyone is a "civilian" who must "comply, now!" or face the wrong end of a blunt instrument for contempt of cop. Now, keep in mind, I've never had any official interaction with police other than the infrequent traffic citation, so that's another reason why I'm interested in your take on things.
2005-03-10 17:39 | User Profile
The people have a right to any weapon that the government has. Those who misuse such weapons must be punished severely. It's not complicated.
2005-03-10 18:14 | User Profile
MST,
I can not presume to speak for any police officer, but from personal experience I will say this: These men and women are human beings with the same emotions and feelings as you and I.
Their profession is a microcosm of society in general, so you have good cops and you have bad cops. They have families w/kids, they divorce, they laugh, they cry, and they die just like any one else...And yes MST, some of these lawmen are just downright nasty.
That's about all I can say cause I don't want to get in a dragged out discussion with the cop-haters on this board.
Regards, vytis
2005-03-10 18:39 | User Profile
vytis,
Understood. I know from previous experience that these things can turn into a sh*t-slinging fest at the drop of a hat, so I think you've chosen the wiser course.
Take care.
2005-03-11 14:58 | User Profile
I will say I do not think much of the 5.7 x 28 cartridge it shoot a 28 grain bullet at 2034 f.p.s. and 257 ft-lbs. It is too close to .22 WRM. I think I like the 7.62x25mm cartridge better. One those AR15 "pistols" filled with M855 might be a better choice.
FN 5.7 x 28 [url]http://www.fortliberty.org/military-library/fn-5.7.shtml[/url]
[QUOTE]I don't think I'll be abandoning the .45 and 230 HydraShok anytime soon. Five-seveN is an interesting pistol, but with today's posting on the NRA-ILA daily email of an ATF description of the pistol and the available SS196 40gr. Hornady V-Max bullets at about 2000fps, I cannot imagine that it will provide "stopping power" any more than one could rely on a .22 MRF out of a rifle which is roughly equivalent. That said, love to have one to whack a few coyotes, raccoons, nutria, and whatnot here in Oregon.
...
Yes, level II doesn't stop high velocity rounds, 7.62x25 Tokarev, Hornet revolvers, hotter .44 Mags, and a whole lot of others. Of course this wasn't on too many minds until you made your little vest penetrating video. Maybe next time you can try wearing them - and test for effectiveness against headshots.
[url]http://bastardsinc.blogs.com/bastardsinc/2004/01/fns_five_seven_.html[/url][/QUOTE]
And on related note:
[QUOTE].22 Winchester Magnum Rimfire
The standard 40 grain bullet is now advertised to have a muzzle velocity of 1,910 fps in a 22" rifle barrel and carries 324 ft. lbs. of energy. From the 6.5" barrel of a revolver the velocity is 1400 fps with an energy of 174 ft. lbs.
[url]http://www.chuckhawks.com/22mag.htm[/url] [/QUOTE]
2005-03-11 16:26 | User Profile
Democrats, schmemocrats.
Don't get caught up in the phony Faux/FReaker worldview. Junior's Repugs are no better on protecting your Constitutional rights...
2005-03-11 18:10 | User Profile
[QUOTE=vytis]MST,
I can not presume to speak for any police officer, but from personal experience I will say this: These men and women are human beings with the same emotions and feelings as you and I.
Their profession is a microcosm of society in general, so you have good cops and you have bad cops. They have families w/kids, they divorce, they laugh, they cry, and they die just like any one else...And yes MST, some of these lawmen are just downright nasty.
That's about all I can say cause I don't want to get in a dragged out discussion with the cop-haters on this board.
Regards, vytis[/QUOTE]
Men and women?? Women have NO business being cops. They should stay home and raise children like women did for thousands of years.
2005-03-11 18:32 | User Profile
No kidding Franco...But they are, and there's nothing you or I can do about it; out on the streets doing a job a lot of men don't have the b---s to do. :gunsmilie
2005-03-11 22:47 | User Profile
More:
FIVE-SVN USG SA PST B 20RD
Item # 3868929120 MSRP $1,074.27
Mfg FNM Your Price: $919.73
Model Five Seven USG Sale Ends:
Type Semi-Automatic Pistol Quantity: Allocated
Caliber: 5.7 Finish Black
Additional Specifications
Action: Single Action
Stock: Blk Polymer Frm, Equip Rail, imprvd trigr guard
Capacity: 20+1
Sights: Adjustable 3-Dot Sights
Barrel Length: 4.82"
Overall Length: 8.2"
Weight: 1.36 lbs
Packaging: Black Plastic Carrying Case with Cable Lock
Additional Features 1: Improved Trigger Guard Additional Features 2: Manufactured by FN Herstal Belguim
Picture: [url]http://www.davidsonsinc.com/dealers/prod_images/3868929120.jpg[/url]
2005-07-30 12:06 | User Profile
Oh biggie wow! The Democrats want to ban all guns, and they will whip up a story like this about anything that gets their attention or offers the least reason to.
One of my fondest memories was the reaction of the left in the L.A. riots. Droves of them flocked to the gun stores to get the means to protect themselves and their families, only to run smack into the 15 day waiting period THEY voted in! They were all P.O.'d and outraged.
I laughed SO hard!!!!
Amy [url]www.prettygoodbullets.com[/url]
2005-07-30 16:47 | User Profile
As long as a cop can get away with murder and a citizen gets the chair for killing a crazy cop I will not believe in "justice" in regards to cops.
When was the last time that you saw a cop get the chair or go to jail for killing a citizen?
I was framed by the cops about forty years ago and there was nothing that I could do because I din't have any evidence to the contrary.
By the way guys, if I were you I would no longer post as to what kind of firearms you have, talk bout them but don't say what you have.
2005-07-30 17:48 | User Profile
I can maybe understand making them tough to get, as in requiring lisensing and all of that, but I can't understand banning it. That will stop the good guys from having it but the criminals will still get them
2005-07-31 04:05 | User Profile
[QUOTE=kane123123]I can maybe understand making them tough to get, as in requiring lisensing and all of that, but I can't understand banning it. That will stop the good guys from having it but the criminals will still get them[/QUOTE] Exactly, this is just a corner that they are trying to nibble off. If they succeed watch out second amendment.
2005-07-31 21:01 | User Profile
Given the fact the cartridges can be loaded at home, this talk of the AP a cartridge only being available to the government is a bet silly. It is funny you can get .22 Winchester Magnum Rimfire in FMJ bullets. The 5.7 x 28 cartridge is too close to .22 WRM for my taste and may be worse with out FMJ bullets.
I still do not think much cartridge or the gun that shoots it. I would say a 1911 in 9x23win would be a much better gun. I would also say some .357 mag sabot loads might be something to play with. For some reason carbide did not make the ATF list of thing banned for making hand gun bullets cores. So that might be something to think about.
2005-09-06 05:07 | User Profile
Not only does the new sporting round have a bad bullet it is underloaded too. It was less power than .22 Winchester Magnum Rimfire.
[QUOTE]The SS196SR is a new sporting round developed by FN Herstal USA for the 5.7x28mm system. This new round utilizes a 40-grain Hornady V-MAX ** projectile, which delivers precise accuracy and extreme expansion in long-range, low-velocity situations. The muzzle velocity is 1,650 fps.** Contact FN Herstal USA, P.O. Box 697, McLean, VA 22101, phone: (703) 288-1292, fax: (703) 288-1730, Web site: [url]www.fnhusa.com[/url].[/QUOTE]
5.7 x 28 mm [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.7_x_28_mm[/url]