← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · Valley Forge
Thread ID: 17177 | Posts: 35 | Started: 2005-03-08
2005-03-08 04:04 | User Profile
Friends,
I am looking for recommendations for my next handgun purchase.
I want to buy something that can be easily concealed that will also get the job done should it come to that.
I am thinking maybe something like this would be a good choice, but I really don't know.
[url]http://www.springfield-armory.com/prod-xdpstl-sub-compact.shtml[/url]
2005-03-08 04:37 | User Profile
While the Springfield Armory pistol looks like a good one. You may want to take a look at the Beretta 9000S. I am very happy with mine.
2005-03-08 08:51 | User Profile
The Glock 36 (6+1 shots of .45 ACP) is worth considering. It's reliable, durable as hell, and accurate, and it's easy to shoot despite being a small-framed pistol in a large caliber. Some people are bothered by the lack of an external safety, though.
2005-03-09 01:04 | User Profile
The Springfield Armory thing is very Glock like, I think I might just get a Glock. I have thought the baby 10-shot 9mm they make might be a good pocket gun. But I don't know I just do not like the idea of plastic guns.
My cousin has a Glock 36 and he likes it, I have seen some claim Glocks are not durable. I will say all the people I have met who owned Glock's liked them.
[QUOTE]The Glock 36 (6+1 shots of .45 ACP) is worth considering. It's reliable, durable as hell, and accurate, and it's easy to shoot despite being a small-framed pistol in a large caliber. Some people are bothered by the lack of an external safety, though.[/QUOTE]
Any other ideas on compact automatic pistols? I kind of liked Beretta 84FS Cheetah. Yes I know .380 is not the best cartage. Is it any good other than the weak cartage.
I looked over a number of nice all metal full power 9mm compact automatic pistols on gunmakers' websites. I would not mind a steel frame too.
Any ideas?
2005-03-09 01:58 | User Profile
I'll be watching this thread because my next gun purchase is going to be a compact, easily concealable weapon as well.
2005-03-09 02:46 | User Profile
Steyr S40.
2005-03-09 03:28 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Valley Forge]
I want to buy something that can be easily concealed that will also get the job done should it come to that.
[/QUOTE]I noticed they didn't state the width of that firearm. A concealable firearm has to be concealable. If you lived in North Dakota instead of Louisiana you might have enough clothes on to conceal a fat, squarish gun.
I have a Texas CHL and carry an aluminum frame S+W 38 special. It hides easy. Sometimes I carry a Keltec .32 in my back pocket. If I were in a gunfight I'd like to have my Sig P226 or my Ruger 45, but these guns are not concealable, at least not for southerners.
The best gun to have is the one you have on you. Buy a big gun and you'll probably go around anarmed.
2005-03-09 03:30 | User Profile
Any thoughts on Kahr and Llama compact automatic pistols?
[url]http://www.bersa-llama.com/[/url]
[url]http://www.kahr.com/[/url]
2005-03-09 04:01 | User Profile
There's always the Beretta .22
[url]http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://marquisprods.com/moviegunguy/web_graphics/beretta22lr.jpg&imgrefurl=http://marquisprods.com/moviegunguy/semiautomatics.html&h=250&w=350&sz=28&tbnid=bFlHueMbsXMJ:&tbnh=82&tbnw=115&start=3&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dberetta%2B.22%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D[/url]
2005-03-09 06:19 | User Profile
For concealment, I think it's hard to top the Walther PPK.
2005-03-09 15:02 | User Profile
I think I found my new gun. :thumbsup:
2005-03-09 16:08 | User Profile
VF,
There have already been several good choices listed, but I'm always dubious when the caliber gets below a .38 for self-defense work. Yes, of course the .22 you have with you is worth a lot more than a .45 in your dresser at home, but with a smaller caliber, shot placement isn't everything, it's the only thing. A handgun's underpowered to begin with, and reducing the pill to a .380, .32 or less is asking a lot.
The concealability issue is there also, with travis pointing out the possibilities with various clothing, but I've found that with a little planning, you can conceal a good-sized piece if you're careful and aware.
That being said, you might want to consider one of the stubby .45s out on the market. The small DAs made by Springfield Armory are good, and some are designed for CC with flush hammers, etc. They're pretty reasonably priced as well. I don't know what your budget is, but if you want to get pricier, you can try a Kimber. They make a stubby .45 that's pretty good (and pricey as well). Some are optimized for CC. Any of these are concealable as well.
[img]http://www.kimberamerica.com/images/pistols/ultracarry_II.jpg[/img]
You might want to check out [url]www.banderagunleather.com[/url] as they make belts custom-fitted to particular guns and they look exactly like a normal belt. Of course, you can't conceal something with them if you need to tuck in, but I've found that a one-size-too-big T-shirt will even cover a full-size .45 with one of these, provided basic common sense is followed.
Kahr's are OK from what I've heard, Faust (K40 in particular) but I've no experience with Llama's, though they're cheap. You might do better with a Taurus, as their stuff's quality but not overpriced in the way that the Kimber or Colt name alone adds to the price.
I hate Glocks personally, but not for any mechanical failing, just the way they fit in my hand. They have a feel "only a gorilla could love" as Cooper once put it. Still, they're very reliable and all, just don't like them or the triggers myself.
[u]Edit:[/u] Wow! Looks like Springfield had caught the $$$$$ bug! Just cruised their website and the prices have gone way up. Plus, it looks like they've dropped the DA 1911 from their catalog, so I guess it didn't sell very well. Still, their wares are good, but now you'll pay just as much as a Kimber for them. Six of one, half a dozen of the other, I suppose.
2005-03-09 16:36 | User Profile
I still like my Smith & Wesson 686 W/ 4" barrel. I know it's bigger than a lot of you younger guys like....BUT if I need back-up it's there; like right now! No fumbling around getting to it. :)
2005-03-09 16:44 | User Profile
Yeah, a .357 will get the job done, all right, but where do you keep the thing until it's needed? Is the 686 an N frame, BTW? If so, you must have some big ol' pockets to tote the thing around in!
2005-03-09 16:57 | User Profile
First of all MST let me say. I have a permit to carry concealed, and I don't need big ol pockets to keep it in.
It's not that big of a deal to carry in a shoulder or a back holster beneath a loose shirt...You know that.
This 686 also fits nicely into a camo fanny-pack.
2005-03-09 17:18 | User Profile
I have a .357 and I wouldn't want to lug it around all day. I know this is not a popular opinion but I do believe someone shot with 5 hollowpoint .22's will cease and desist and go elsewhere.
2005-03-09 19:45 | User Profile
Ant thought on these guns.
NAA Guardian .380 [url]http://www.naaminis.com/380.html[/url]
84FS Cheetah. A double-action pistol, 13-round staggered magazine and frame-mounted manual safety with hammer decocking device. The Combat-style trigger guard provides support for a two-handed hold and offers an enlarged opening for easy access with gloves. The 84FS Cheetah features a corrosion-resistant anodized alloy frame with matte black finish and Nickel-Chromium-Molybdenum steel barrel with hard chromed bore for longer life. A nickel-finished version is available with plastic or wood grips.
[url]http://www.berettausa.com/product/product_pistols_main.htm[/url]
2005-03-10 16:17 | User Profile
Hey vytis, no disrespect intended, just funnin' with you.
I realized I forgot to mention a couple of choices that are quite good, as well as cheap and fairly small in size.
The first is the Makarov. These are good little guns from what I understand. Any East Bloc manufacture should be of good quality (as opposed to a Chinese knock-off). They are chambered for the 9x18mm Makarov cartridge, which falls in power somewhere between the 9mm Luger (9x19mm) and the .380 Auto. The guns themselves are pretty cheap ($100-130 depending on maker and condition) but they're highly reliable by all accounts. There's surplus ammo on the market that's very cheap right now, but I'm not sure about the availability of what one could consider "self-defense" rounds like major ammo maker's hollowpoints. Also, there are drop-in barrels available for converting it to .380 Auto as well. Supposedly, the gun's based on the PPK mechanism. I see there's not much choice in hollowpoints when I go looking. From another website...
[u]9mm Makarov (9x18mm)[/u] Cor-Bon makes the only 9mm Mak hollowpoint on the market, an excellent 95 grain JHP that is totally reliable in all East Bloc pistols. Go buy it. If you cannot find it, order it by mail. Use ball only as a last resort, or for practice.
However, there are also Russian ammo makers offering hollowpoints for the 9x18mm. FMJ as well. Seems the info in the quote's a little out of date.
Second is the BRNO CZ-52. A little bigger gun, but it's made to Czech quality standards, which are very good as you may know. Chambered for the high-velocity 7.62x25mm (.30 Tokarev) cartridge, it's a potent round, though it supposedly overpenetrates badly. Surplus ammo's readily available, but again, not sure about "self-defense" ammo. The guns themselves are quite cheap ($90-120 is what I've seen) and of good quality, but they're kind of ugly, though I guess beauty's in the eye of the beholder and all that. Regarding the ammo again, another quote from the website...
[u]7.62x25mm (a.k.a. 7.63mm Mauser, .30 Tokarev)[/u] If you're using this obsolescent communist caliber I can only assume that you have an old CZ-52 or Chinese Tokarev. Only 87 gr. ball ammo is available, so leave the cheap Chinese military stuff for practice and carry Fiocchi 7.63 Mauser ball in your gun.
Again, this info's a little dated. There are several other makers of new 7.62x25mm around. S&B (also a Czech company) makes this round, as well as brass-case Polish surplus being available.
I think either piece would make at the very least a good, inexpensive backup gun that shoots a fairly effective round.
[url]www.jgsales.com[/url] has both guns in stock as well as ammo for them. It's a good place to start looking if you're interested in surplus stuff of any stripe. I've dealt with them, and they're pretty reasonable.
2005-03-10 16:26 | User Profile
10-4 MST...No offense was ever taken. :thumbsup:
2005-03-10 17:28 | User Profile
Personally, one thing I would not have in a handgun intended to possibly be used on an assailant less than 15 feet away is one with a SAFETY. A PPK is not worth anything if in the heat of the moment you flick the safety down like a 1911 or Beretta, nor is a Beretta or 1911 worth anything if you think you are holding your PPK and flick the safety up. This is why I will not buy any more defensive handguns with safeties. A double action like a Sig with no safety is great, and double-action-only is good for short range. It's hard to beat a revolver, too. If you really want a gun with a safety, like a 1911, make sure it's your only gun and you train with it regularly. If that's your favorite gun make it your only one, too. If someone 10 feet away might be a threat, do you want to pull your gun on him and snick off the safety? I don't. I want a gun that I can pull and discharge in a split second without any screw-ups like discharging in my pocket or forgetting the safety.
2005-03-10 17:32 | User Profile
Good point, travis. I'd think a revolver would be the weapon of choice for someone who doesn't get much involved in guns, but wants to carry for protection (not saying that's you) ;) . Nothing to mess with, just point and shoot. Plus, it's pretty safe to carry since the DA trigger is so heavy. I guess Glocks would fall into that category as well.
2005-03-11 01:41 | User Profile
travis
[QUOTE]Personally, one thing I would not have in a handgun intended to possibly be used on an assailant less than 15 feet away is one with a SAFETY... [/QUOTE]
This gun does not have one. Double Action Only Trigger Pull: 10.0 LBS.
[QUOTE]NAA Guardian .380
Specifications:
[url]http://www.naaminis.com/380.html[/url][/QUOTE]
2005-03-11 01:48 | User Profile
MadScienceType,
I recall a few years back a white man was taking a walk in LA and was attacked by 3 mexican street gang members. He got away they were armed with knives. They were chasing him. He pulled out a Makarov and shot all three of them. All of them were D.O.A. They tried to charge him with something, but were not able to do so.
2005-03-11 01:57 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Faust]
This gun does not have one. Double Action Only Trigger Pull: 10.0 LBS.[/QUOTE]I had a NAA miniature .22 and the quality was truly superb. But look at the weight of their little 380. My loaded S+W 38 Special weighs less than that one does unloaded. It's much easier to conceal a handgun if it's light, a heavy one gives you away when you walk.
2005-03-11 06:50 | User Profile
travis
[QUOTE]I had a NAA miniature .22 and the quality was truly superb.[/QUOTE]
Do you think of the NAA miniature .22 as toys, or a self-defense guns? I wonder if they could make a .32 H&R Magnum Mini-Revolver, I am pretty sure they would have to use a new and larger frame for it. It might be a neat gun.
[QUOTE]But look at the weight of their little 380. My loaded S+W 38 Special weighs less than that one does unloaded. It's much easier to conceal a handgun if it's light, a heavy one gives you away when you walk.[/QUOTE]
Is that an Aluminum Alloy frame one you have. The ones I was looking at on the S&W site ran from 14.5 to 36 ozs. Is 18.72 ozs that bad, would it not be less bulky than a Revolver. The .380 does have less stoping power than 38 Special. And Revolver are less troublesome too.
2005-03-11 07:08 | User Profile
MadScienceType
Tthe Makarov does look rather like a PPK. It has been used as pocket gun. I would get the .380 Auto. too if got one, just so I could shoot booth.
[url]http://www.makarov.com/[/url]
I thought the CZ-52 was closer to being a full sized gun? You can get after market drop-in 9mm Parabellum (9x19mm) Barrels Tokarev and BRNO CZ-52. I pretty sure you can get 7.62x25mm (a.k.a. 7.63mm Mauser, .30 Tokarev) with out too much touble, but I think it would also be a good idea to get the 9mm Parabellum Barrel. Also people used bore them out and fit a rifled tube and them chamber them for 9mm Parabellum no reason to do this when you can get after market Barrels.
[url]http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg58-e.htm[/url]
2005-03-11 11:50 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Faust] Do you think of the NAA miniature .22 as toys, or a self-defense guns? I wonder if they could make a .32 H&R Magnum Mini-Revolver, The .22 was a great trap line gun, until you trap a skunk and have to fetch something with a longer barrel to make a clean kill without being "shot" yourself. LOL. The problem as a defense gun, including most other little derringers I've seen is that they are single actions and thus can't be drawn and fired with speed, and since there is no trigger guard, leaving them cocked in your pocket when danger is imminent would be stupider than stupid. They might be good for offense when you have the element of surprize, though. The smaller NAA can be carried in your hand without anyone knowing you have one in your hand. There is a notch between each chamber in which the hammer rests in the safe mode, but you must actually cock the hammer and pull the trigger while lowering it (trigger still pulled) into that notch veryyyyy carefulllllyyy.
Is that an Aluminum Alloy frame one you have. The ones I was looking at on the S&W site ran from 14.5 to 36 ozs. Is 18.72 ozs that bad, would it not be less bulky than a Revolver. The .380 does have less stoping power than 38 Special. And Revolver are less troublesome too.[/QUOTE]Yes, mine is aluminum, a 637 and about 14 ounces. The thing you have to be careful about is that some 38 ammo has a weak crimp and the recoil cause it to slip and bullet moves forward preventing cylinder from rotating, at least so I have heard....never happened to me. I doubt the NAA 380 would be troublesome, it's just that the squarish shape is harder to conceal, they are heavy and expensive. If you want a small auto, I recommend the Keltec 32. For years I heeded the advice of friends not to carry a "plastic gun that might blow up in my hand". It's only 3/4 inch thick and doesn't weigh much more than my wallet. The caliber is only a little better than a .22 though.
2005-03-12 03:08 | User Profile
Another compact pistol to consider is the Bersa Thunder .45.
The stainless steel model has a wholesale price of about $300
[url]http://www.bersa-llama.com/cat_thunder45.html[/url]
[url]http://www.bersa-llama.com/[/url]
Bersa .380 review: [url]http://www.gunblast.com/Bersa_Thunder380.htm[/url]
Another Bersa .380 review: [url]http://www.chuckhawks.com/bersa_380.htm[/url]
Bersa discussion forum: [url]http://www.bersatalk.com/[/url]
2005-03-12 03:09 | User Profile
Why is it so cheap?
2005-03-12 03:40 | User Profile
Bardamu,
Bersa handguns are made in Argentina. Perhaps exchage rates and that nations economic problems have something to do with the low prices of their products. Also the price mentioned is the dealer price. (A friend gave me a catalog with dealer prices)
Bersa also makes a line of handguns called Firestorm;
[url]http://www.firestorm-sgs.com/products.htm[/url]
Articles: [url]http://www.firestorm-sgs.com/articles.htm[/url]
The Mini Firestorm .45 looks interesting: [url]http://www.firestorm-sgs.com/minispecs.htm[/url]
Mini Firestorm .45 review: [url]http://www.firestorm-sgs.com/article_newmini.htm[/url]
2005-03-12 03:49 | User Profile
Revolvers aren't prone to jamming problems, but autos are. That's why I'm not enthusiastic about buying budget-priced autos. Some are finicky about ammo, others downright unreliable. If you have a chance to shoot it first, run some Blazer aluminum case ammo through it. If the chamber has any irregularities in it, the case will conform to it and fail to extract. Try it with several different kinds of ammo.
2005-03-15 06:10 | User Profile
travis,
I kind of like the Keltecs because unlike the Glocks the Keltec frame is machined aluminum with only the grip magazine well and the trigger guard made of plastic. Any thoughts The Keltec P-11 9x19mm; it is 20 oz full of ammo.
[QUOTE]Keltec P-11 9x19mm
Technical Specifications
Calibers: 9 x 19 mm Luger
Weight unloaded lbs. 14 oz.
Loaded magazine 6oz.
Length 5.6"
Height 4.3"
Width 1"
Barrel Length 3.1"
Sight radius 4.6"
Muzzle energy max 400 ftlbs
Capacity 10+1 rounds
Trigger pull 9 lbs 40N
[url]http://www.kel-tec.com/prod01.htm[/url][/QUOTE]
2005-03-15 13:17 | User Profile
Faust, I've never held on in my hand. Having read the specs a long time ago, it was the thickness that deterred me. If I had one I think I would continue to carry my snubby 38. The DA trigger on the S+W is better than the DAO (I'm assuming their 9mm is similar to their P32).
2005-07-30 11:59 | User Profile
My own carry piece is a SIG SAUER P229 chambered in .40 S&W. It's compact, easy to dress around, and has plenty of punch.
Amy
2005-08-29 23:00 | User Profile
Some shooting ranges have weapons that you can try out. If this is possible, you might try several different handguns. I think most folks would agree that reliability is your primary concern. My primary ccw is a Glock 19 although I'm a 1911 fan as well. I would recommend a well known make, Beretta, Glock, HK, etc, stay away from junk guns. A lot of subjectivity involved in selecting a ccw. I like semi-autos, others like revolvers. If you can, try a few, see how they fit in your hand, etc.