← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · Quantrill
Thread ID: 16980 | Posts: 29 | Started: 2005-02-26
2005-02-26 13:52 | User Profile
I recently came across some information on Systema, which is the native Russian martial art, and which is reputed to be one of the most effective fighting systems in the world. What I also found quite interesting is that the entire philosophy and study of this martial art are explicitly Christian, specifically Orthodox.
There is a reason why Russian Martial Art is called THE SYSTEM (the Russian word is Systema). It is a complete set of concepts and training components that enhance oneââ¬â¢s life. In this case, acquiring the martial art skill is a way to improve the function of all seven physiological systems of the body and all three levels of human abilities the physical, the psychological and the spiritual. The key principle of the Russian System is non-destruction. The goal is to make sure that your training and your attitudes do no damage to the body or the psyche of you or your partners. The System is designed to create, build and strengthen your body, your psyche, your family and your country.
The System has another name ââ¬Åpoznai sebiaââ¬Â or ââ¬ÅKnow Yourselfââ¬Â. What does it really mean to Understand Yourself? It is not just to know what your strengths and weaknesses are, that is good but fairly superficial. Training in Russian Martial Art is one of the sure ways to see the full extent of our limitations ââ¬â to see how proud and weak we really are. The System allows us to gain the true strength of spirit that comes from humility and clarity in seeing the purpose of our life.
As the roots of the Russian System are in the Russian Orthodox Christian faith, the belief is that everything that happens to us, good or bad, has only one ultimate purpose. That is to create the best possible conditions for each person to understand himself. Proper training in the Russian System carries the same objective ââ¬â to put every participant into the best possible setting for him to realize as much about himself as he is able to handle at any given moment. [url="http://www.russianmartialart.com/main.php?page=philosophy"]http://www.russianmartialart.com/main.php?page=philosophy[/url]
Further reading here: [url="http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=510"]http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=510[/url]
2005-02-26 17:23 | User Profile
Quantrill, thanks for the info. :thumbsup:
2005-02-26 18:40 | User Profile
Vytis, I'm glad you find it interesting. Here is an interesting quote from the aikidojournal.com article.
If someone had told me a few years ago that out of a western Christian tradition would come a martial art as deep, sophisticated and evolved as the best of the oriental arts I would not have believed them. Yet there is such an art coming out of the ancient Russian culture with deep roots in the Russian Orthodox monasteries. :thumbsup:
There is actually a place about 20 miles from here that teaches Systema, and I think I am going to check it out next week.
2005-02-27 19:18 | User Profile
[url]http://www.russianmartialart.com/[/url]
East Asian martial arts were often designed more for mental and emotional discipline than for brutal effectiveness (Tai Chi for example). That's why the ultimate fighting guys who have multiple black belts in asian arts usually get slaughtered in close combat fighting. The supremacy of Oriental fighting is something Hollywood sold us.
I heard of Valdimir Vasiliev in the military and I have been much less worried about getting attacked since. I hate violence, but I also realize that the more people who know these skills, the more fearful criminals will be. I pray I would never have to use the tactics I know.
I had no idea the systema was Christian though, interesting. I did know that it was repressed by the Soviets while at the same time they trained their Spetznaz(sp?) using the same techniques.
2005-02-27 20:29 | User Profile
I was a kid when all martial arts suddenly became frowned upon in the Soviet Union. I attended only one session, where I probably lost a couple of kilos of weight in relentless 3-hour excercise. Too bad it didn't last.
There was no bullshit during this first one, they started to teach kicks and punches right away.
2005-02-27 20:35 | User Profile
[QUOTE=LlenLleawc] I had no idea the systema was Christian though, interesting. I did know that it was repressed by the Soviets while at the same time they trained their Spetznaz(sp?) using the same techniques.[/QUOTE] I find this part of it interesting, as well. After all, if there are fighting arts that speak to the Oriental soul, why shouldn't there be ones that speak to the Western one? I will try to check it out this week, and I will post my impressions.
2005-02-27 20:38 | User Profile
[QUOTE=madrussian]I was a kid when all martial arts suddenly became frowned upon in the Soviet Union. I attended only one session, where I probably lost a couple of kilos of weight in relentless 3-hour excercise. Too bad it didn't last.
There was no bullshit during this first one, they started to teach kicks and punches right away.[/QUOTE] MR, I'm glad to hear that you thought it looked good. I was considering studying Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, but I have my doubts about how effective it would be in a real street fight. Any martial arts experts out there? What is your take on systema as compared to BJJ, silat, or muay thai?
2005-02-27 20:46 | User Profile
I am not qualfied to judge those, but definitely anything that tries to follow too strictly some silly dogma with emphasis on some mental empowerment is too removed from reality.
2005-02-28 10:00 | User Profile
Cheers
p.s. can someone post a link where you can order instruction DVD's (reliable) - as there is no instruction places anywhere near me. I wanna lose weight, though I dont really need to.
2005-02-28 12:33 | User Profile
FTT, I don't know if this is widespread enough for there to be instructional DVDs yet, and I don't know how useful they would be anyway. Sorry. If you are just wanting to get into really good shape, you might want to try this site -- [url="http://www.trainforstrength.com"]www.trainforstrength.com[/url] This guy focuses on bodyweight workouts, and he has a bunch of them on his site for free. I have tried three of them, and I can guarantee that they're extremely challenging.
2005-02-28 17:26 | User Profile
Quantrill,
Jiu Jitsu is quite effective one-on-one, but of course, far less so against multiple opponents. Of course, that's true for most matrial arts as well. If you look at most street fights between two people, they go to ground almost immediately (the ones that are serious, as opposed to drunken shoving matches) and that is where BJJ is helpful, though rolling around on a carpet of broken glass isn't fun, but if you're going to be down there anyway, might as well learn how to finish the fight quick so you can get off of it. Naturally, against multiple attackers, the ground is the last place you want to be, so a stand-up striking art is a must, but of course, you can get mobbed very quickly there as well, so sometimes a hasty retreat is the better course, or the employment of some sort of defensive weapon. Muy Thai isn't bad, if you could take out/distract one of two attackers with a good, hard kick to the thigh muscle (it's unbelievable how painful that is, but not permanently damaging) or kneecap (also very painful, but can permanently cripple) you could concentrate on the other one. I think BJJ is a good place to start, but look into some others as well.
2005-02-28 22:01 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Free The Truth]Cheers
p.s. can someone post a link where you can order instruction DVD's (reliable) - as there is no instruction places anywhere near me. I wanna lose weight, though I dont really need to.[/QUOTE]
I meant to paste the following link into my post, and like an idiot I re-pasted Quantrill's original link (since I had opened it in a seperate window). Anyway I have ordered a couple videos from this site. It's a bit pricy and once you order one, they will send you some promotional hype, but overall I found them valuable. I found the Holds and Releases video to be very helpful; effective techniques that are easy to learn.
[url]http://www.trsoutlet.com/vlva.html[/url]
2005-03-01 06:30 | User Profile
[QUOTE=LlenLleawc]I meant to paste the following link into my post, and like an idiot I re-pasted Quantrill's original link (since I had opened it in a seperate window). Anyway I have ordered a couple videos from this site. It's a bit pricy and once you order one, they will send you some promotional hype, but overall I found them valuable. I found the Holds and Releases video to be very helpful; effective techniques that are easy to learn.
[url="http://www.trsoutlet.com/vlva.html"]http://www.trsoutlet.com/vlva.html[/url][/QUOTE] Cheers mate...
2005-03-02 03:20 | User Profile
I'm no expert on martial arts or street-fighting, but I have had an interest in self-defense skills and fighting techniques. I studied boxing and a Vietnamese martial art that uses elbows and knees and shin bones and forearm bone. The first six months of training in the Vietnamese art was kicking a heavy bag with my shins to harden the bone (likewise with the forearm bone). It was very painful and my bones were always aching. The idea was to use bone-snapping kicks against an opponent (i.e., my rock-like tibia bone sweeps across and connects with my enemy's knee, tibia or femur). I think you get the idea. To use this as a self-defense tactic would've taken years and require tip-top conditioning. It made much more sense as a self-defense skill than high-kicking martial arts (TWD of Kung Fu). From watching the Ultimate Fighting matches it appears as if wrestling combined with grappling, quick-striking punches is the best street-fighting method. Alot of the top UFC winners have wrestling backgrounds, and the rest Brazilian Ju Jitsu. I agree with the other comments here about Ju Jitsu or Brazilian Ju Jitsu. If I had to do over again I would fid a Ju Jitsu master and studyfor a decade under him. Now I lack the motivation, though I have a desire to have self-defense skills. I've had my eye on an Israeli martial art called Krav Maga. It is used effectively by Israeli security services and is simple, streamlined, and focuses strictly on stopping an attacker.
2005-03-03 19:11 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Free The Truth]Cheers
p.s. can someone post a link where you can order instruction DVD's (reliable) - as there is no instruction places anywhere near me. I wanna lose weight, though I dont really need to.[/QUOTE] [url="http://www.russianmartialart.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22&products_id=64"]http://www.russianmartialart.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22&products_id=64[/url]
Or, you can wait a day and let me look around to see if I still have my copies of his videos and I'd barter them to ya :thumbsup:
They seemed "so simple, that it's complicated" if that makes any sense at all to ya.
It definately didn't seem like something one guy can learn on his own with a vcr and nothing else. But out of interest alone they are very good. Starting out with the sounds of Red Jackboots... cool imagery and almost "National Bolshevik" looking at first.
I bought them through some magazine a few years back as a part of a pkg deal. Let me see if I can find them all (there are two tapes and another video that came with it that was Jute-Keen-Do (sp?) training or Bruce Lee's fighting material which was very simplistic and powerfull I thought.
2005-03-05 22:41 | User Profile
On the contrary, BJJ is extremely effective. I hold rank in Korean Taekwondo and Chinese Shaolin Kung Fu, and even though I learned a lot, and even though I am am quite confident in my ability to dispatch an untrained fighter in a street situation (if it ever came to that), if I had it to do over again, I'd would study BJJ and Muay Thai boxing. Knowing what I know now, I believe that BJJ is by far the best training for ground grappling situations, and Muay Tai is best training for stand-up fighting. The reason studying BJJ is so important if you're serious about self-defense has to do with the dymanics and nature of street fights -- most self-defense experts (of which I am not) will tell you that nearly every street fight ultimately ends up on the ground. And the ground is exactly where you want your opponent if you are well trained in BJJ.
[QUOTE=Quantrill]MR, I'm glad to hear that you thought it looked good. I was considering studying Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, but I have my doubts about how effective it would be in a real street fight.[/QUOTE]
2005-03-05 22:53 | User Profile
Can you point out even one UFC winner who didn't incorporate elements of the Asian martial arts into his stand-up fighting style? Because I've never seen one.
And I don't agree that the supremacy of Asian fighting systems is something Hollywood has sold us. I trained for years with an 8th degree Kung Fu grandmaster, and I watched him break a stack of five breaks with his bare hands. The man's strength, speed, flexibility, and power were almost inhuman.
I have no doubt that he could put just about anyone on Earth in the hospital or the graveyard fast, including the guys who participate in the UFC.
[QUOTE=LlenLleawc][url]http://www.russianmartialart.com/[/url] That's why the ultimate fighting guys who have multiple black belts in asian arts usually get slaughtered in close combat fighting. The supremacy of Oriental fighting is something Hollywood sold us. [/QUOTE]
2005-03-06 02:04 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Valley Forge]Can you point out even one UFC winner who didn't incorporate elements of the Asian martial arts into his stand-up fighting style? Because I've never seen one.
And I don't agree that the supremacy of Asian fighting systems is something Hollywood has sold us. I trained for years with an 8th degree Kung Fu grandmaster, and I watched him break a stack of five breaks with his bare hands. The man's strength, speed, flexibility, and power were almost inhuman.
I have no doubt that he could put just about anyone on Earth in the hospital or the graveyard fast, including the guys who participate in the UFC.[/QUOTE] Dan Severin, Ken Shamrock, et al., heavyweights.
Remember that match between a half-dozen matches between the top Thai kickboxers vs the top Kung Fu masters. The Thai kickboxers won all fights by knockout.
As for your last comment, well, I don't know. I sometimes wonder why former heavyweight pro boxers don't compete in UFC. Yeah the prize is only 50k for a few fights, but they could parlay the UFC thing into a marketable toughguy persona if they win it. So I wonder if they think they might be able to. Certainly UFC has gotten alot of attention and most boxers know about it.
2005-03-06 03:45 | User Profile
That's one of the reasons I would study Thai boxing, rather than Taekwondo and Kung Fu, if I had it to do over again. It seems clear that Thai boxing models real-world "street" fighting much better than other Asian fighting systems. However, Thai boxing itself is an Asian martial arts system -- so I think to some extent the Thai boxers' victory over the Kung Fu masters is a point for my position that the Asian fighting systems are indeed supreme rather than a point against it.
Remember that match between a half-dozen matches between the top Thai kickboxers vs the top Kung Fu masters. The Thai kickboxers won all fights by knockout.
As for the Kung Fu grandmaster I used to train under, I am admittedly biased, but I honestly don't see how a fighter like Ken Shamrock could ever defeat him. I don't see how Shamrock or similarly built fighter could ever get near him; he's too fast. I could be wrong though; who knows?
2005-03-06 13:25 | User Profile
If you want to see Systema in action, go to [url="http://www.systemauk.com/media.htm"]http://www.systemauk.com/media.htm[/url] and download some of their videos.
I've never tried Systema, so I'm not qualified to comment on its effectiveness, but it does look interesting.
I would like to make a few fairly obvious points. We as white men, need to keep ourselves in shape and know how to handle ourselves in a street situation. But most of us have families and jobs, and simply have limited training time. Therefore, any style which takes hours of weekly practice for a period of years is out of the question. A practical style of fighting must be based on a small repertoire of easily learned moves. I believe that many basic combat oriented jiu jitsu moves can be learned at home by practicing on a heavy bag. Learning Systema would require training partners. If you could find a couple of guys who shared your interest, it might work to order a video or two, and practice the moves on each other.
Secondly, we can talk about the great fighters, but most of us don't have that kind of ability and potential. I'll never be able to fight a Ken Shamrock, but I do want to feel comfortable with the idea that I can defend myself against some black street thug.
Thirdly, since training time is limited, I believe that the primary emphasis must be put on physical conditioning. Fighting technique should come in second. This is mainly because you want to be healthy. You want to live a long, productive life. And regular exercise is one of the key ingredients.
2005-03-09 23:17 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Valley Forge]Can you point out even one UFC winner who didn't incorporate elements of the Asian martial arts into his stand-up fighting style? Because I've never seen one.[/QUOTE]
Absolutely true, but has nothing to do with my point. Even Bruce Lee recognized that Eastern arts could be modified to create a much more naturalistic system. From what I know of BJJ and systems like JKD, they are absolutely top-notch, but they are not pure Eastern tradition either, they are an amalgam of science and multiple fighting cultures. Correct me if I am wrong on this but I believe BJJ brings in a lot of modern science.
The point is that when you are confronting an attacker, he is usually in flight or fight mentality which stems from the most primitive portion of the brain. Numerous western systems have trained fighters how to circle around an attacker(similar to the kung fu tactic of using the opponents own momentum) in order to take advantage of this primitive mentality. The Eastern bloc countries had some great techniques to burn these tactics into physical memory. The Spanish school of swordsmanship triumphed because of similiar circular tactics and some of that knowledge goes back to the Roman gladiators and Infantry.
[QUOTE]And I don't agree that the supremacy of Asian fighting systems is something Hollywood has sold us. I trained for years with an 8th degree Kung Fu grandmaster, and I watched him break a stack of five breaks with his bare hands. The man's strength, speed, flexibility, and power were almost inhuman.[/QUOTE]
I don't mean to say that western arts are supreme to Eastern arts only that Eastern arts are not the foolproof system some people think they are. No system makes you invincible.
I am sure he was a great fighter and wish you luck with your studies. I am entirely uninterested in watching people break bricks and such other exercises that will not help me make a quick decision when confronted with a close quarters confrontation. The whole breaking multiple boards exercise is one of the most obvious examples of how silly some eastern systems are once they reach us. I am sure your friend had many other skills, he sounds like the genuine article but I'm sure even you would agree that a lot of what hollywood peddles as authentic is downright pretentious.
Perhaps we are thinking of different movies when I speak of hollywood; some of the tactics I see onscreen are pure nonsense. For example directors love the grace and daring of the roundhouse kick. the roundhouse is great for training mind and body coordination, but use it against a trained fighter and he will kill you once your back is turned to him. Anyhow I'm glad you've found something that works for you, I do not in any way pretend to know all about Eastern martial arts, only that the best western fighters can hold their own.
2005-03-10 01:02 | User Profile
I agree with you that most of what's shown on TV and in the movies is nonsense. That is true for sure.
2005-03-14 07:16 | User Profile
I seriously have doubts about the people's ability to resist Government domination. I am only 5 % away from accepting as fact that the advanced tech of the Govt will be able to subdue mass populations even if they march on the Capitol. I believe that they have tech which can cause electro-magnetic waves which cause instantaneous heart stoppage. I don't know what else to say, and I'm thinking of living the rest of my life acording to this. I know that many on OD are aware of what I say, but there are also many on OD that choose not to acknowledge reality, and think they are still living in the past. Without a takeover of the people, America is an Empire, an Empire which you SHALL SERVE.
2005-03-14 12:45 | User Profile
Well, I tried to check out the Systema place (somewhat) near me. However, when I called, a machine answered and gave the name of the place as the 'Silat and Executive Development Center'. :frown: That sounds like it is some ropes-course, leadership exercise sort of place, which is not what I was hoping at all. Hmm. I might just look into BJJ, as there is at least one very well-respected BJJ teacher near here.
2005-03-14 17:47 | User Profile
Q,
If you do so, I do not think you'll be disappointed. Bear in mind, that at first, you will be probably be covered with horrible bruises from head to toe (at least I was) but that the incidence of these fades quite rapidly if you stick with it. I don't know if that's because one gets better at technique and avoids the bruising, or if your body just becomes "used" to the stimulus, maybe some of both. Just something of a heads-up for you. BJJ is, if nothing else, very good conditioning that also makes you realize you can twist into shapes you didn't know were possible. Plus, it's very hard to hold on to someone who's good at it, as it is with trained wrestlers.
2005-03-15 04:07 | User Profile
Breaking bricks and boards allows martial artists to demonstrate the power of martial arts striking techniques without actually breaking bones or killing people. It's hardly a useless or silly exercise; trust me, once you've broken a brick or a cinder block with your bare hards, as I have, you quit being afraid of other human beings. So the value of the exercise comes not from its practicality in combat situations, but rather from from the self-confidence, mental, and psychological discipline it builds. In the Asian martial arts, there is tremendous depth and a reason for everything.
[QUOTE=LlenLleawc]I am entirely uninterested in watching people break bricks and such other exercises that will not help me make a quick decision when confronted with a close quarters confrontation. The whole breaking multiple boards exercise is one of the most obvious examples of how silly some eastern systems are once they reach us.[/QUOTE]
2005-03-15 04:13 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Quantrill]Well, I tried to check out the Systema place (somewhat) near me. However, when I called, a machine answered and gave the name of the place as the 'Silat and Executive Development Center'. :frown: [/QUOTE] They are probably just trying to make a buck. 'Sila' means strength, so maybe there's some substance behind the facade too.
2005-03-15 04:18 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Jack Cassidy] I've had my eye on an Israeli martial art called Krav Maga. It is used effectively by Israeli security services and is simple, streamlined, and focuses strictly on stopping an attacker.[/QUOTE]
Oh brother, stay away from the jew.
2005-03-15 04:57 | User Profile
It's probably as Jewish as bortsch: something they've stolen.