← Autodidact Archive · Original Dissent · Howard Campbell, Jr.
Thread ID: 16946 | Posts: 14 | Started: 2005-02-24
2005-02-24 15:57 | User Profile
Not surprising--the chapters on crows in Konrad Lorenz's King Solomon's Ring are also worth a read on this subject:
[url]http://www.rense.com/general63/ays.htm[/url]
For the dumbest avarians I'd nominate the Faux-FReak Chickenhaux... :D
2005-02-24 17:06 | User Profile
Crows are quite intelligent. I used to live near a pecan orchard, and the birds would pick up the nuts, place them on the roadway and wait for a car to come along and run them over. They would then dart in and pick out the meat. So in effect, they were using cars as "tools" to get food. Pretty clever if you ask me. Maybe we could have a crow as the next SecDef or SecState? I don't see how they could do any worse.
2005-02-25 08:56 | User Profile
[QUOTE=MadScienceType]Crows are quite intelligent. I used to live near a pecan orchard, and the birds would pick up the nuts, place them on the roadway and wait for a car to come along and run them over. They would then dart in and pick out the meat. So in effect, they were using cars as "tools" to get food. Pretty clever if you ask me. Maybe we could have a crow as the next SecDef or SecState? I don't see how they could do any worse.[/QUOTE]
Russia has a species called gray crows (serye vorony). I'm no expert, but I don't think we have these in America. These are incredibly intelligent birds.
About ten years ago we were living in Moscow and I took my kids to a little park not far from the Russian government house - the place made famous when Yeltsin had it shelled. The park during Soviet times was a real Orwellian place, as it was dedicated to the child hero Pavlik Morozov who was canonized in Commie literature for turning his peasant parents into the Commissars for hiding grain, which caused his martyrdom at the hands of his uncle. Anyway, my kids spotted a group of these gray crows and started mocking them, making caw-caw sounds at them, pointing their fingers and laughing. These gray crows got real PI$$ED OFF and attacked all of us. It was terrible - dive bombing us, trying to peck our eyes. My kids were crying. I was pretty freaked out about it, actually. It was like being in the Hitchcock movie for a terrifying moment. I must say that my naughty children treated gray crows with increased respect after that. We suceeded in making up with them by bringing them some stale bread to eat.
Here's another gray crow story. Mrs. Yannis was in another Moscow park and spotted a baby gray crow that had fallen to the Earth. The other crows were all very upset about it. She went over and picked up the little crow and returned it to the tree, while the adults went crazy attacking her. But the next day when she returned to the spot they freeking remembered her. They flew in a circle formation over her head, and started bringing her offerrings of nuts and twigs. Amazing.
They're very smart birds.
On a related topic, I once saw while driving through New Mexico a coyote kill a dog. This really big, shaggy ranch dog was chasing a coyote across an open field, about 200 meters ahead and heading for the road I was driving on. I saw the coyote turn around to judge the distance of the dog and its rate of closing, and then he looked at the oncoming traffic, adjusting its speed to keep the dog on its tail while not getting run over by a car. He got right up to the highway when he made his move. He kicked his legs into high gear and crossed the road, clearing an oncoming car by just inches, even as the same car smashed into the dog who was galumphing behind him, sending it flying 20 yards and killing it instantly. I saw the coyote turn around and - I swear - smile as it watched the dog sail through the air. It then turned around and slinked away.
This really was cold blooded murder.
Coyotes are waaaay smarter than dogs.
2005-02-25 09:56 | User Profile
...just occasionally outwitted by Road-Runners. :D
Regarding smart birds, Walter, Ben Franklin preferred your Wild Turkey to the Bald Eagle for a national symbol.
2005-02-25 10:17 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Howard Campbell, Jr.]...just occasionally outwitted by Road-Runners. :D
Regarding smart birds, Walter, Ben Franklin preferred your Wild Turkey to the Bald Eagle for a national symbol.[/QUOTE]
Franklin's choice of birds was the inspiration of my avatar. Originally my signature containe the Franklin quote about this.
2005-02-25 10:22 | User Profile
Not to mention the favorite bourbon of the late H.S. Thompson--in its 100 proof setting.
2005-02-25 16:44 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Howard Campbell, Jr.]Not surprising--the chapters on crows in Konrad Lorenz's King Solomon's Ring are also worth a read on this subject:
[url]http://www.rense.com/general63/ays.htm[/url]
For the dumbest avarians I'd nominate the Faux-FReak Chickenhaux... :D[/QUOTE] This article doesn't mention ravens, but ravens must be at least as smart as crows, if not smarter....and have better manners and temperment. Crows have the reputation of being "foul mouthed" by those who claim to be able to understand them. :smile:
It's hard to tell ravens and crows apart at first, but ravens are bigger than crows, and they "croak" rather than "caw".
I've been in the mountains, hiking, while passing a flock of ravens, and I swear their "croaking" was literally communication of a fairly sophisticated nature - not like human language, but more sophisticated than most animal calls. I wonder if they were talking about the silly humans.
Ravens have been observed to follow hunters so as to have a free meal on the animal carcass afterwards. Some hunters have say that ravens have actually led them to animal game, hidden in the forest, in exchange for the free meal - acting as their air reconnaissance, as it were.
2005-02-25 16:49 | User Profile
[QUOTE=Howard Campbell, Jr.]...just occasionally outwitted by Road-Runners. :D [/QUOTE]Once again the media does a great injustice....the coyote is quite smart. Coyote is a trickster god, just like Raven, in many mythologies.
I remember a story by Revilo P. Oliver relating how a coyote was observed to sit down in front of a baited animal trap (baited with "free food"); the coyote studied the trap for several minutes, then the coyote got up and went away, leaving the "free food" with disdain, thus proving, as RPO put it, that the coyote was smarter than the average American voter.
2005-02-26 17:44 | User Profile
Yes, Ravens are amazing birds--they tend to travel in pairs rather than in flocks.
The Indian Mynah bird is the best "tawker" among crow cousins, though frankly far inferior than the parrots (especially African Grays) in that regard...this is less a matter of raw birdie I.Q. than natural design of the tongue amd voice-box.
2005-02-26 18:52 | User Profile
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/bardamu/ravenbowl.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/bardamu/Odin_Hugin_munin.jpg[/IMG]
2005-02-26 20:54 | User Profile
I know that crows and ravens are extremely intelligent as far as birds go, in that they are capable of not only learning by trial and error and imitation, but are actually capable of insight and innovative tool use.
However, I wouldn't be surprised if African grey parrots top crows and ravens in intelligence. African greys can to taught not only to immitate words but to learn their actual meaning, i.e. you can show an African grey a spoon and it will say "spoon." I recall reading somewhere that some experiments demonstrated that the African grey parrot has some rudimentary grasp of numbers as well.
N.B. - As another piece of bird trivia while we're on the subject: owls, in spite of their association with Minerva, are actually quite stupid even by bird standards.
2005-02-27 06:44 | User Profile
[QUOTE=AntiYuppie]I know that crows and ravens are extremely intelligent as far as birds go, in that they are capable of not only learning by trial and error and imitation, but are actually capable of insight and innovative tool use.
However, I wouldn't be surprised if African grey parrots top crows and ravens in intelligence. African greys can to taught not only to immitate words but to learn their actual meaning, i.e. you can show an African grey a spoon and it will say "spoon." I recall reading somewhere that some experiments demonstrated that the African grey parrot has some rudimentary grasp of numbers as well.
N.B. - As another piece of bird trivia while we're on the subject: owls, in spite of their association with Minerva, are actually quite stupid even by bird standards.[/QUOTE]
The "Alex" experiments? I remember reading about those.
Alex the african grey for instance, is shown 7 different letters, each a different color. When asked "What sound is purple" he says "S" which is correct. He can examine objects and identify the composition (i.e. whether it's wool, metal, wood, plastic) if given time to "examine" the object with his beak and feet. He's been taught shapes as well. As far as numbers, he can be shown a series of randomly colored, differing shapes and, for instance, give the correct number of circles or like-colored objects as long as it's less than 8. He can count out objects, moving them from one dish to another if given the command "Count five nuts." The researcher speaks to him in a sort of pidgin English.
Alex is fairly old as far as animals go (around 25, I think) and was "retired" from further learning experiments years ago. In his defense, he retired not because he stopped learning but because the experiments were so successful that the researcher wanted to duplicate the results with other parrots. He is still occasionally called upon to demonstrate his limited knowledge but remains very accurate if memory serves me correctly.
I have also seen claims that the experiment has been replicated to an extent with double yellow headed amazons by a different group of researchers. It's likely most of the other large psittacines are nearly, if not just, as capable as the african grey. It wouldn't suprise me if even small parrots, like the budgerigar, could duplicate such feats albeit in a much more limited fashion.
2005-02-27 06:46 | User Profile
[QUOTE=AntiYuppie]I know that crows and ravens are extremely intelligent as far as birds go, in that they are capable of not only learning by trial and error and imitation, but are actually capable of insight and innovative tool use.
However, I wouldn't be surprised if African grey parrots top crows and ravens in intelligence. African greys can to taught not only to immitate words but to learn their actual meaning, i.e. you can show an African grey a spoon and it will say "spoon." I recall reading somewhere that some experiments demonstrated that the African grey parrot has some rudimentary grasp of numbers as well.
N.B. - As another piece of bird trivia while we're on the subject: owls, in spite of their association with Minerva, are actually quite stupid even by bird standards.[/QUOTE]
Yes, AY--I had an African Gray for several years (before losing him when a teflon-coated tea-pot boiled dry and the chemical fumes killed him)...
Scrimshaw (my Gray) would say "Give some to the parrot" in my exact vocal inflections and tonal range when any guest tasted food in my flat...he had heard me speak the phrase in that context just once before(!)
More uncannily, he precisely mimicked the vocal trills of my Soprano girlfriend...when she appeared annoyed, he'd chuckle in my voice... :D
Still, Corvi seem to trump Psiticae...nogginally speaking.......
2005-02-27 06:59 | User Profile
Exactly! Thanks...
[url]http://www.alexfoundation.org[/url]
Grays are uncanny creatures--up there with Chimps and German Shepherds...